22 thoughts on “‘Fitna’: Dutch for ‘Garbage’ – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. What a surprise it would be if Jews and Muslims just got along and collectively gave the finger to the leaders who spead hatred and violence.

    Nice to see you are doing your part.

  2. It’s a great shame that you didn’t have 14 more minutes to watch the rest of the film, and so I need to first make a couple of factual corrections – the film is anti radical Islam, not anti Muslim, and Fitna means “strife”.
    Now, you make the point that
    Do you know how many acts of war, murder, fratricide, genocide and terror there are in the Bible? Many. So many they make my skin crawl. Do you know how many villainous acts Jews commit in the Bible? Many. Does this mean that Judaism is evil? Of course not. Does is justify the hatred of anti-Semites? Of course not.. Yes, IN THE BIBLE. A largely fictional work written 2000 years ago. When was the last Sandstone Buddha blown up in the name of Christianity? When was a train full of innocent people attacked in the name of Judaism? And as a very intelligent Jewish blogger, does the following not worry you? (From Wikipedia)
    An Imam raising a sword declares: “A Jew is hiding behind me, come and cut off his head. And we shall cut off his head! By Allah, we shall cut it off! Oh Jews! Allahu Akbar! Jihad for the sake of Allah!” An auditorium of several hundred people respond with approving chants and fist shaking.
    Following this, a three year old Muslim girl, named Basmallah, calls Jews “apes and pigs” during an interview on Saudi Arabian television. More antisemitism is shown by another Imam, who states: “The Jews are Jews. They are the ones who must be butchered and killed.” Child soldiers are shown uniformed and holding guns.
    Later, images are shown of a large group performing Hitler salutes, holding banners saying “Hitler was right” and saying the holocaust is coming. Is this not ringing any alarm bells from history?

    But I think the most important thing to come out of all of this is to note that despite the fact that the film breaks no laws in the countries it was made or hosted in, despite the fact that many moderate Muslim reviewers actually said the film was right to try to expose the cancer of extremism – despite all that, the film was removed by Liveleak after death threats against the families of staff. Even if the content of the film is forgotten, the fact that we have lost free and legal speech should be more shocking than anything.

    (hope the formatting comes out alright – pls correct if needed)

  3. It’s interesting what one can perceive from a person’s facial expression – even when it’s only from a photograph of that person!!!

    Yes – this fanning the flames of ignorance and intolerance is the scourge of the human race.

    I’m not sure I entirely agree however, that – “Every religion contains messages of hate, intolerance and violence.” Buddhism, as far as I’m aware does NOT contain these messages – although the Japanese – who have had a strong connection with Buddhism and Zen for centuries – had no qualms about using extreme cruelty and violence to further their imperialist agenda before and during WW2.

    I put it down to the HIJACKING of the essential wisdom of all religions – by ego-driven, testosterone fuelled sociopaths who willfully interpret anything and everything for their own ends!!!

    Here is a song that may interest all who blog on this site:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtXVW2Btb38

    And here’s one for bedtime. [It’s midnight now in the UK]:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ze2kTGoiIM

    Goodnight – dear brothers and sisters across ‘the pond’!

  4. the film is anti radical Islam, not anti Muslim

    I wish that were the case, Jon. The film, like all Islamophobia confuses the actions of the few extremists with those of the vast majority of Muslims & makes the case that Islam as a religion is evil. Ali Eteraz makes that point in the review linked above and he DID watch the whole 15 minutes.

    Yes, IN THE BIBLE. A largely fictional work written 2000 years ago.

    I only mentioned the Bible since Fitna focuses so obsessively on the Koran. I could of course point out serial acts of evil perpetrated by Jews over the course of centuries but especially in the last 60 yrs of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. I don’t need to confine myself to the Bible. I also don’t believe the Bible is “largely fictional.”

    When was the last Sandstone Buddha blown up in the name of Christianity?

    Christians had a nasty habit during the Crusades of burning entire towns full of Jews seeking refuge in their synagogues. I’d say a synagogue qualifies as a sacred relic somewhere close to a sandstone Buddha.

    When was a train full of innocent people attacked in the name of Judaism?

    The Israeli extremist settler Natan-Zada sprayed automatic weapons fire throughout a bus full of Israeli Arabs killing numerous victims. He did it in the name of Judaism. I hope you see where this is going. For every instance of Muslim hate I can provide an instance of Jewish or Christian hate. No religion has a monopoly on it. And no religion, including Islam, is pure evil.

    All the propaganda images you have swallowed hook line & sinker worry me as much as Israeli incitement against Palestinians worries me. They worry me as much as hearing a distinguished rabbi say that Ehud Olmert should be shot if he gives up Jerusalem.

    many moderate Muslim reviewers actually said the film was right

    Jon, just because you have drunk the cool-aid regarding this movie doesn’t mean you should take the rest of us for fools. You know that Muslim reviewers have not said this film was right. And certainly not “many.” And if you can remotely prove this claim pls. do so.

  5. The four comments here are a good microcosm of the debate surrounding the film and the subject. Let me add my two cents. In the first instance I think it is important to realize that the film is anti-Islam and not anti Islamic extremism. Wilders himself (by the way I am an American expat living 20 yrs in Holland) and his supporters claim the film is against the ‘Islamist ideology’ and not against Muslims. The film is then against ‘Islamist ideology’ which many of his supporters and party colleagues claim is a fascist political ideology and not a religion. But make no mistake, the film is anti Islam and that can be clearly seen by the fact that he film never talks about radical Islam or Islamic extremism but always about the Islam.

    A second point that I think is a politically correct red herring that does not serve to further open discussion is the attempt to dial down the broad stroke association of Islam with extremism by somehow leveling the extremist playing field with examples of blood curdling texts from the Torah and other Jewish sources such as the books of the Judges that are also full of blood curdling stories and commandments. Or by pointing to examples of Jewish or Christian extremism in the present, recent past or distant past. It is a difficult fact that begs dialog that there are numerically more violent reactions coming out of Islamic circles than out of Jewish or Christian circles. What is important to immediately note is that the vast vast majority of Muslims do not react violently to the myriad provocations they face but the majority of faith based violence does come from the Muslim community. One can name all the factors that contribute to this phenomenon and one can mention that the vast majority of state sponsored violence affecting Muslims come from Christian America and Jewish Israel. Perhaps one can argue that the number of Muslims killed by Western states is far more than the number of non-Muslims killed by Islamic extremists. Does the fact that the Western violence is called collateral damage change anything in that equation? I am not sure. Does the fact that Western violence is not so directly tied to Biblical motivation change the equation? I am not sure. In any case, one could perhaps hold that violent extremism is an equally prevalent phenomenon on both sides. But without admitting these truths it is difficult to discuss them.

    And lastly a point that is glossed over largely about the film is that it was intended as a sly propaganda tool supporting Wilders’ own ideology and populist political ambitions. The often misleading juxtaposition of image and text is intended to create an irrational and unfounded fear of Muslims. For example, Wilders shows the numbers of Muslims in Holland and Europe; he then focuses in on gays using pictures that seem to come primarily from Iran; he shows a beheaded woman, a woman being shot and one buried in sand presumably as part of a stoning; he shows images from Ashura. All of this to say this is what awaits us due to the large and growing numbers of Muslims in Holland and Europe. I know that people use the argument of how we underestimated and appeased the Nazi threat in the 1930’s and that we should not repeat that mistake. But anyone who can tak And anyone who takes the possibility of an eventual Muslim sharia caliphate in Europe as a serious threat is nuts or dangerously manipulative. Wilders is not nuts. His use of the Ashura imagery is especially noteworthy since the vast majority of Dutch and European Muslims are Sunni and not Shia. That in and of itself demonstrates the truth-distorting, manipulative propaganda nature of the film

    From watching the many news and current event shows since the film came out one can see that the film has been partially successful in sowing angst albeit thankfully among a small percent of the Dutch population in any case. When people say the film is good because it in 15 minutes shows what Islam is really about is testimony to that. No 15 minute film, and certainly not this one, can properly illuminate any deep and complex subject. In that sense, the film belongs in the category of propaganda films not unlike those that came from the hand of the likes of Goebbels or McCarthy for example.

  6. From what I’ve just been reading on Ha’aretz talkback:

    During the media hype — which lasted weeks before the film`s release — a man was arrested for handing out flyers with Wilders texts. In order to demonstrate a related aspect of hypocrisy, he had replaced words like `Muslim` with `Jew(ish)`. A successful action, one might conclude.

    One might indeed conclude such a thing (~;

  7. Quoting Richard

    “You know that Muslim reviewers have not said this film was right. And certainly not “many.” And if you can remotely prove this claim pls. do so.

    Just one of many such citations lives in tangentlama’s link one comment above this:

    The umbrella group for Dutch Muslims said that the film does not insult their religion.

    I’ll try and find the other links when I’m re-united with my bookmarks 🙂

  8. Jon: While the statement you quote above has been repeated several times on the web, nowhere is there a link, group name or any sort of authentication of this statement. Any Muslim who, seeing that film, does not believe it insults their religion is either on drugs or in serious denial. Personally, I believe this claim regarding this alleged group is a hoax.

    @Lenny:

    I think a politically correct red herring that does not serve to further open discussion is the attempt to dial down the broad stroke association of Islam with extremism by somehow leveling the extremist playing field with examples of blood curdling texts from the Torah and other Jewish sources such as the books of the Judges that are also full of blood curdling stories and commandments. Or by pointing to examples of Jewish or Christian extremism in the present, recent past or distant past. It is a difficult fact that begs dialog that there are numerically more violent reactions coming out of Islamic circles than out of Jewish or Christian circles. What is important to immediately note is that the vast vast majority of Muslims do not react violently to the myriad provocations they face but the majority of faith based violence does come from the Muslim community.

    We’re almost always in agreement, Lenny. But not on this particular pt. I’m a student of history, specifically Jewish history. I think it’s VERY relevant to note the history of violence among all religions so as not to repeat mistakes of the past.

    I don’t know that it is true there are numerically more violent attacks by Muslim extremists than any other religious group. It’s possible. But keep in mind that there are more Muslims in the world than any other religion including Roman Catholicism. So of course there would be more Muslim terror than Jewish terror as we are a very small number compared to Muslims. And as for Christian violence–while there may not be as much today, Christianity certainly has a deep & rich history of violence against other faiths & against its own dissenters.

  9. OK, here’s the British take on the situation: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=W3_qelW5qp4 – this guy’ can hardly be called a ranting insult to Islam, in fact, he’s spent some time working in the middle east and should know a thing or two….the 6 minute video has only been out 3 hours, and even taking into account that the counters only update every 5 hours, he is:
    #1 – Most Discussed (Today) – News & Politics #2 – Most Viewed (Today) – News & Politics #1 – Top Favourites (Today) #2 – Most Discussed (Today)
    #1 – Top Favourites (Today) – News & Politics #1 – Top Rated (Today) #1 – Top Rated (Today) – News & Politics #3 – Top Rated (This Week)
    #1 – Top Rated (This Week) – News & Politics
    My point? This shows there’s a need for serious debate – there are huge cultural changes happening all over Europe. Almost more than anything, we value our freedom of speech, and it doesn’t matter who or what a few extremists claim to represent, if those extremists want to attempt to stifle freedom with threats, they have a hard road ahead…BTW, I’m not saying I agree with the content of the above video.

  10. The style in which the delivery of information was delivered had some eerie similarities with anti-semitic Nazi propaganda. Is film is a classic example of demagoguery.

    As a Jew and a Zionist, I am confident that my people are smart enough to see that Wilder is attempting to turn provocative pictures into TRUTH. Use your brains!!! Go out and read the Koran. I have, and if anything, its a lot less violent than my book.

  11. Ethans2007 said:

    I am confident that my people are smart enough to see that Wilder is attempting to turn provocative pictures into TRUTH.

    Um, you do realise that all the clips (ranting swivel-eyed Imams calling for mass slaughter of Jews, a 3 year old girl calling Jews pigs) were actual footage, don’t you? No one acted anything – this footage and hours like it forms the subject of documentaries worldwide.

    The truth CAN be uncomfortable, sometimes unbearable. For example, a newspaper columnist wrote how she didn’t want to believe that the slave trade was in fact very much a two-way thing, with tribal chiefs selling their own people,

    A Channel Four program called Undercover Mosque exposed just how widespread the anti-semitic, anti-gay, anti-western ranting is, in UK mosques.
    That’s all it was – footage of Imams ranting: http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/undercover+mosque/158390
    And yet, the West Midlands Police reported to the crown prosecution service it as being “unhelpful for community cohesion” (of course, no charges were brought)

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2147135,00.html

    The priority for the West Midland Police,’ said Patani in the joint statement, ‘has been to investigate the documentary and it’s [sic] making with as much rigour as the extremism the programme sought to portray.’ Such a richly illiterate sentence perfectly captures the police’s pig-headed, irresponsible and sloppy handling of the whole affair. Since issuing the statement, both the CPS and police have refused to explain themselves or provide any evidence to support their allegations, apparently drawing their ideas on bureaucratic accountability from the works of Kafka.

    Dispatches boasts an impressive history of tackling Islamic extremism. In Kill or Be Killed, it filmed Abu Hamza lecturing young Muslims on how to bring down a plane at Heathrow, when the rest of the media were still treating him as a caricature. And Trouble at the Mosque showed how young men armed with baseball bats took over Luton mosque. Dorothy Byrne, who commissioned these programmes, recently asked Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair why the police did nothing about these cases. Blair replied that the police had sent files to the CPS, but they decided to take no action. Perhaps they were too busy referring TV programmes to Ofcom.

    Just because it’s uncomfortable doesn’t make it untrue.

  12. I don’t know that it is true there are numerically more violent attacks by Muslim extremists than any other religious group. It’s possible.

    OK then, from this morning:

    Several men accused of plotting to blow up passenger planes mid-air as they crossed the Atlantic made Islamic martyrdom videos, a court has heard.
    Six of the eight men recorded videos in which one warns of “martyrdom operations” which would “rain down” on non-believers, jurors were told.

    From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7330367.stm

    I’m doing this because the rewards, the big rewards that Allah has promised those who step on his path and Inshaallah [God willing] become martyr and the best of amongst those to me is the guarantee of Jannah [paradise] for myself and my family and those that are close to me.

    So, that’s another 8 who would gladly kill the people who gave them a place to live. I’m just wondering how many more it takes before people wake up and stop excusing other’s actions.

  13. Nobody “excuses” hate or violence wherever it comes from.  But unlike most of us, Jonathan, you seem fixated on Muslim hate & believe it holds a unique place in the history of human perfidy & evil.  People who see Muslim extremism as unique or more dangerous than any other garden variety of political terrorism do a disservice.  It should be fought just as we fight all the others.  No more and no less.

  14. I just found out that Wilders has been trying to ban Halal sausage from supermarkets in Holland. This rings alarm bells – there’s little difference between Halal and Kashrut laws – so what’s next for Wilders – ban Kosher products? 
    Islamophobes are no friend to Jews. 

  15. Jonathan. You said: “A Channel Four program called Undercover Mosque exposed just how widespread the anti-semitic, anti-gay, anti-western ranting is, in UK mosques.
    That’s all it was – footage of Imams ranting:http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/undercover+mosque/158390
    And yet, the West Midlands Police reported to the crown prosecution service it as being “unhelpful for community cohesion” (of course, no charges were brought)”
    And I will tell you that those Imam came from the USA, not the UK, and that they were formerly Evangelicals who ‘reverted’ to Islam and were not in fact Imam, but belong to a particular type of evangelising Wahabist Islam- they ingratiated themselves by their aggressive self-promotion to those mosques where they preach division (fitna) between Sunni and Shi’a – in other words, they belong to a small USA-originating ex-evangelical preacher-set that were trained by so-called scholars at the Madina ‘University’ in Saudi Arabia. They despise the Shia as much as the Jew, and they came deliberately came to UK to spread malice and division amongst UK Muslim and to drive a wedge between UK Muslims and their fellow non-Muslim citizens

  16. TO tangentlama who

    just found out that Wilders has been trying to ban Halal sausage from supermarkets in Holland.” And who then commented further: “This rings alarm bells…”
    Here are a few other of Wilders’ proposals:
    It will be illegal for Muslims to build any additional houses of prayer.
    It will be illegal to operate a Muslim faith based school while Christian, Catholic and Jewish schools will be allowed.
    It would be illegal to possess a copy of the Koran.
    Offensive pages from the Koran will be burned.
    It will be illegal to immigrate to Holland from any Muslim country.
    And some of his statements:
    “Native Dutch procreate less quickly then minorities. Now the minorities, mostly Muslims, are concentrated in the large cities. In 20 years they will be everywhere…”
    “It is totally undesirable that Amsterdam should count 177 different nationalities.”
    “No to integration. Assimilation! And then let those headscarves come protest at Maliveld (in the Hague). I’ll eat them raw.”
    “I don’t want a growing number of people, maybe in the future a majority, to be Muslims in the cabinet.”
    If some of his proposals about how to treat Dutch Muslims or the way he talks about this religious minority reminds you of some other demagoguery from some other period of time, sadly not all that long ago in European history, then you see who we really need to be afraid of. We need to decide if we are going to deal with the legitimate problems we have as a free and pluralistic society or are we going to allow these populist anti-democratic voices of nationalism and neo-fascism create and fill their vacuum of fear and ignorance. It’s happened before on European soil and it could happen again. Wilders and for that matter Rita Verdonk with her new “Proud of Netherlands” party is how it begins. Sure they get a lot of support because its much easier to peddle hate and fear apparently.
    It’s worked before and they believe it can work again. Could it work again? Could the Muslim massacres on European soil during the Balkan wars actually have been a foreshadowing of events to come as opposed to an aberration? And on what side of this argument should especially we Jews be on with our history, regardless of our feelings in the Israeli-Palestinian question?

  17. lennybruce: I’m totally lost here – can you provide any attribution for most of the things you wrote? Even the direct quotes come up blank on Google, Yahoo etc. All I can find is a few sites pointing out that there are various mis-informed emails being forwarded saying things like ” Offensive pages from the Koran will be burned”. It would be nice to stick to fact here – makes debate easier!

  18. Jon:

    Sorry, I should have done that. My bad…. They mostly come from the referenced overview found here: http://forum.fok.nl/topic/1138276.
    In an editorial in the Volkskrant, 8 aug 2007 (http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article451338.ece/Genoeg_is_genoeg_verbied_de_Koran) he calls for banning the Koran and in his explanation of his position (http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article451302.ece/Wilders_verbied_de_Koran,_ook_in_moskee) explains that in addition to banning the sale of the book, its use in mosques or in the home should become a criminal offense. Its use should only be sanctioned for academic purposes.
    In Wilders’ meetings with government officials in October and November, he had stated that his intention in the film would be to end by ripping pages out of the book and throwing them into a fireplace (http://www.destentor.nl/algemeen/binnenland/2912514/Wilders-woedend-over-leugens.ece)
    A few other juicy bits from Wilders’ editorial from 8 aug 2007:
    “How I am ashamed of the Dutch politicans. Their naiveté and sickly hunt for the utopia moderate Muslim, who only brings our land hell and damnation. How I am ashamed of those inside and outside the Parliament who refuse to stop the Islamic invasion of the Netherlands… The Hague (seat of government) is full of cowards. Frightened people who were born cowards and will die cowards… Who don’t give a damn about the interests of the Dutch citizen and who cooperate in the transformation of the Netherlands in Nederarabia as a province of of the Islamic state Eurabia…”
    If this kind of stuff doesn’t sound reminiscent of some national-socialistic demagoguery of the early 30’s then I don’t know what would.
    And two corrections to Richard’s bio of me: I am 20 yrs in Holland now and married to an asian Muslim man (even a bit more piquant haha).
     
    The translations are mine and are faithfully made. You sound a bit doubting in your comment. Are you surprised by his positions and his comments?

  19. Sorry but I left one of his quotes out that really reminds one of how the national socialists blamed all of the country’s ills on one minority group:

    “Veel fundamentele problemen in Nederland, zoals infrastructuur, files, huisvestingsproblemen en de verzorgingsstaat, kun je rechtstreeks
    toeschrijven aan migranten.”

    Geert Wilders in interview met DPA, 3 januari 2008
    “Many fundamental problems in the Netherlands, like infrastructure, road congestion, housing problems and the welfare state, can be directly attributed to migrants.”
    We may have a problem with integration, there may be a problem with violent Islamists, but our choice is do we fight these problems based on the strength of our diversity, inclusion and democracy or do we fight them based on division, fear and fascist sounding populism. To me Wilders is the true danger because he and people like him can erode our freedoms much faster than any real or exaggerated threat of a Muslim caliphate in Europe.

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