.jpg){kind=small}
mini.jpg)
I have often half-jokingly written here that Israeli nationalists and apologists will only be truly happy with Arabs when they get down on bended knee and sing Ha-Tikva, Israel’s uber-Zionist national anthem. Little did I know that right-wing Education minister, Gideon Saar, literally has this in mind. He decreed that all schools and all students, of whom 1 in 4 are Arab, will study a curriculum about the anthem. This despite the fact that Israeli Arab citizens detest the song and feel it disparages their identity and very existence:
Abir Kupty, Israeli Arab, who protested Israeli anthem on TV show
Mr Saar’s initiative is widely seen among Israel’s 1.3 million Arab citizens as a further indication of the rising nationalistic tide sweeping policymakers.
…Arab citizens are unhappy with its heavily Zionist lyrics, which speak of how the “soul of a Jew yearns” to return to Zion, as well as referring to “The hope of two thousand years, To be a free nation in our land”.
…Abir Kupty, today an elected official with the Nazareth municipality, produced one of Israeli TV’s most talked-about moments four years ago when she was filmed sitting down when the anthem was played. She was the only Arab contestant in a show to find Israel’s future leaders.
Ms Kupty said: “This decision by the education ministry is part of the current hysterical right-wing mood in Israel. They hope they can erase our Palestinian identity by making us love the anthem.”
She added that Arab pupils were already deprived of the chance to learn about their own history, culture and identity. “The curriculum in Arab schools is heavily controlled by Jewish officials and by the security services.”
This is a perfect example of everything that is wrong with Israel: a pig-headed unwillingness to understand that if it wishes to be a democracy it must embrace, and not erase, the culture and ethnic identity of all citizens. If Israel wishes to be a nation based on Jewish supremacism it should accept that it is not really a democracy. Rather, it is a democracy only for its Jewish citizens. For the 20% who are not, it is a deeply dispiriting, second class existence. This is illustrated perfectly by the attitude toward Israeli Arabs within the education system:
Figures released by the education ministry this month show that only 32 per cent of Arab students passed their matriculation exam last year, compared to 60 per cent of Jewish students. The pass rate was a dramatic drop from the 50.7 per cent of Arab pupils who matriculated in 2006.
Yousef Jabareen, head of Dirasat, a Nazareth-based organisation monitoring education issues, blamed the poor results on growing cultural bias in the Israeli education system as well as severe budgetary discrimination.
He said the increasing weight placed on Jewish heritage and Judaism lessons put Arab pupils at a severe disadvantage, and that further alienation was caused by the state’s refusal to allow the Arab education system any autonomy in selecting its own curriculum.
A report published in March, he added, showed that the government invested US$1,100 in each Jewish pupil’s education compared to $190 for each Arab pupil.
If this were America, there would be an outcry from liberals about the inequity in such a system. Laws would be passed and court cases filed forcing a state to spend equally in every district and for every student regardless of ethnic background.
But where are the Jewish liberals now? Where is Jeffrey Goldberg? Where is David Harris? Where is Eric Yoffie? Where are the Jewish federations who claim they support Israel, as opposed to Jewish Israel?
Further evidence of Israel’s willful amnesia about the history and experience of its Arab citizens can be seen here:
Last week the ministry also announced that textbooks recently issued to Arab schoolchildren would have expunged the word “nakba”, or catastrophe, to describe the Palestinians’ dispossession at Israel’s founding in 1948.
What is the worth of a country that denies its history in such a way? How has America’s similar denial of its racist past beggared ourselves as American citizens? The truth is that every citizen must know the good and bad about his or her nation’s history if one is to be a full-fledged member of the polity. A society which denies the existence of such a large number of its own members is truly impoverished.
H/t Rupa Shah.
That was a great reply Shirin.
Notice how almost everything you wrote, I had agreed with presently (this after you stated at first that there was no expulsion, and then realized many Jews who left felt quite differently).
I am not playing games … I just responded in kind to your claim, which I thought was unnecessary.
“after you stated at first that there was no expulsion, and then realized many Jews who left felt quite differently”
1. There was no expulsion of Jews from Iraq or Syria or in fact from most of the Arab countries no matter how you or anyone else with a superficial, limited, unidimensional view of events tries to spin it. And the direct role played by the Zionists in the emigration of Arab Jews is significant, despite your collective refusal to admit it.
2. Funny, I didn’t notice you agreeing with much of anything I said. On the contrary, you accepted without question anything that confirmed your preconceived ideas, in particularly apparently Silvia’s obviously very imaginative versions.
2. This is an example of one of the reasons it is frustrating to try to have a discussion with you. I did not suddenly “realize” many Jews who left felt quite differently. I am not a newcomer to the subject of Arab Jews in general, Iraqi Jews in particular, or to human society and behaviour. On the contrary.
What is particularly galling about this little remark of yours is that you are playing a game of opposites here. It is not I who did not realize there are others who felt differently, it is you and your cohorts who absolutely refuse to accept or acknowledge that there are others who feel differently than they do, and will in some cases will go to absurd lengths to try to deny it.
3. You do sometimes come across in our discussions as a poor listener who is more interested in trying to score cheap points and get in snarky digs at your opponent than to conduct a mutually respectful discussion of differing ideas. That makes it more difficult to take you seriously. If that is not the way you want to come across then maybe you should consider what you can do to avoid giving that impression.
And finally, in the past couple of days I have pulled out some old videos I have here of interviews with Iraqi Jews, including some who immigrated to Israel in the ’50′s and lived their lives there (at least one I know, a well-known writer, is deceased now). I haven’t watched these interviews in a number of years, and it is amazing how accurate my recollections of them were. If this thread were not so far off the page by now I would transcribe some of the interviews and put them here. Ditto some of the books and articles in my personal library that were written by Iraqi and other Arab Jews, including, by the way, Albert Memmi.
1. I’ve said a number of times the ‘Zionists’ were involved in part of the push. As I’ve repeated a few times (which is where i disagree with you), the Arab governments and people who committed the crimes against their Jews are far more to blame than anyone else.
2. I was going more with Bataween, IraqiJew and BarNavi. I noticed you barely acknowledged what they said and instead went after Silvia because she was far more ‘attacking’ in her posting nature.
2. (though 3.) Not sure who my ‘cohorts’ are (though, two of them are Iraqis, so maybe they’re ‘your’ cohorts, they just don’t agree with you) – but I understand there’s people who feel differently about this. Just like there are Palestinian Arabs who feel differently about 48/49 and Jews who feel differently about 39/45. There is no ‘one line’ on any story … That you try and make it seem as if I don’t is one of your tactics which I try to ignore for the sake of the dialogue.
3. (though 4.) Cheap points or ‘snarky digs’ do nothing for me, or you. So I don’t try to do anything. As I sarcastically implied in my last post to you, you come off as a person who views ‘her’ understanding of history as the only one. Then you explain yourself better and are more open. Hence, what you think are ‘digs and cheap shots’.
Lastly, I wonder how most of Arab Jewry would look at their ‘push into Israel’ had Israel been more able to accommodate them. Much like other immigrant classes in the 1950s who were forced into the ma’abarot/border towns, they had a very very ‘eh’ existence. That, coupled with ‘typical’ European treatment of those different (or the ‘religious’ clash between Ashkenazi/Mizrachi) made their experiences very difficult. I talked to an Iraqi Jew yesterday – He said many things that fall more in line with Bataween and others. He did say it wasn’t an ‘expulsion’ like history tends to views expulsions however …
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052970204908604574330881603442624.html
Shirin – It’s not related at all to what we’re discussing but I wanted to see your opinion on the above piece.
Don’t worry, I have NO opinions on this right now, I’ve just read it once and wanted to hear your opinion. (just curious)
Avram, I will wade through it and try to comment, but do not have time now. I must tell you that the name “Fouad” (should be Fu’ad) `Ajami is not respected at all by most Arabs or most Middle East scholars outside of adherents to Bernard Lewis-style orientalism, a western-oriented view that is largely discredited. People like Daniel Pipes love `Ajami because he mostly tells them what they want to hear. In other words, I don’t have a great deal of respect for him or his ideas. It is not that there is no room for self-criticism, and it is certainly not that Arabs are not very self-critical, which they are on many levels and sometimes brutally so, it is `Ajami’s pandering to the often silly, always self-serving western orientalist notions of Arabs that destroys his credibility. In any case, I will try to set aside my prejudices about `Ajami and evaluate the piece on its merits or demerits, but please give me a day or two.
Ok – I have never heard of him before, so I have no issues if you don’t want to comment on that ground (I have a few Israeli commentators where I feel the exact same way, so I can relate)
What you were not told – which might help you understand both some aspects of the article and Shirin’s answer to you – is that Ajami is not liked by most Arab scholars simply because he is a Shia from Lebanon. When he says “the Arabs” – he usually speaks of the Arab sunni majority.
Incidentally, the name “Ajami” means stranger – i.e. non-Arab.
Silvia, please stop making things up.
No, I have no objection to commenting on what he wrote, it is just a matter of getting the time to read it, and write my comments.
Perhaps the interest in the question of oriental Jews has faded a bit since August. But just now a very interesting article by Reuven Snir has been published that might throw some light
a) on this debate
b) on the involved feelings and emotions
c) on the history of the term and the concept “Arab Jew”
It can be found here:
http://www.qantara.de/webcom/show_article.php/_c-310/_nr-712/i.html
Fascinating. Thank you.
My pleasure! Reuven Snir is a fascinating person. The Institute for Advanced Study, Berlin, was really lucky to have him as a guest.
Thanks. I haven’t had time to finish the article, but seems right on so far.
Samir Naqqash is one of the Iraqi Jews living in Israel who are the subject of the documentary film Forget Baghdad. I recommend it. It was made by an Iraqi who recalled his Communist father reminiscing about his Jewish comrades who had left Iraq. The young man went to Israel to try to find them. He failed, but he was able to find other Iraqi Jews there, including Samir Naqqash, who are the subject of the film.
Also, by the way, a significant percentage of the Iraqi Communist party members were Jews, and so it is not surprising to find that quite a few of the Jews who emigrated to Israel in the ’50′s were also Communists. As a matter of fact, many if not most of the Iraqi Jews who were, according to the hasbara, hanged for being Jews, were actually hanged for being Communists, and were tried and executed at the same time as, and even side by side with their Muslim and Christian comrades who were killed for the same reason. Unfortunately, it is all too easy to get away with claiming it was because they were Jews, so this has become the “received truth” in the manner of the Goebbels principle of repeating a lie until it becomes “the truth”.
Yes, I love the film “Forget Baghdad”.
And most of the communists from Muslim families were Shiites. The grandfather of Samir, the maker of the film, was a Shia theologian.
Although the film features Ella Habiba Shohat, it does not feature Naeim Giladi.
Gosh, where were you when I was swatting the gnats like the tragically bitter Silvia, and Avram. We’d have made a great team!
Naeim Giladi is an interesting character. I read his book carefully, and found it interesting, but wanting in a number of ways. In quite a few instances I found myself needing something much more solid than he presented in order to be convinced. There is no doubt of a lot of Zionist hanky panky in Iraq, including some violence against Jews, but I don’t think he presents a solid case for all of his claims.
During their brief period in power in Iraq the Communists were so brutal and became so despised that after they were defeated it could be dangerous in Iraq to wear red or even drive a red car. If they had anything of value to offer Iraqis, they did not have a chance to show that. Nevertheless, just as there were many fine and deeply idealistic Ba`thists, so there were many fine and deeply idealistic Communists. It is the Communists and the Ba`thists who offered the most pluralistic ideology to Iraq,l and the Ba’thists who did the best job of distributing the oil wealth to the people. But that is quite another discussion.
nice comment there Shireen.
Richard – I’m glad you allow people to call posters like Silvia & myself ‘gnats’.
II’ve talked probably to more Iraqi Jews in the last year than you have – and continue to do so (especially considering the disgraceful treatement of Ezekiel’s grave). Your believe your stories and the minority of Jews who stand by them (you must love the CiF lady – the name escapes me, something with a S). I’ll stick to mine. To each his own.
I have no idea what CiF is or who the CiF lady is.
CiF=Comment is Free. But I have no idea who the “lady” in question might be.
If I could leap in here, I note that of the people you cite here – Snir and Shohat – are radical leftists who do not represent most Jews from Arab countries, Giladi is a bitter and twisted man who blames Israel for all his ills and the late Naqqash is an odd-bod author who never quite fitted into Israel because he wrote in Judeo-Arabic. Mainstream views are represented by Shmuel Moreh and Eli Amir who you do not cite.
Claiming that Iraqi Jews were not expelled becomes a question of pedantry – when the children of Israel who were slaves in Israel were let out by Pharoah, they were not technically expelled either, but were driven out by the human rights abuses inflicted on them: likewise Iraqi Jews left because they feared for their safety (the Farhoud claimed 180 Jewish lives in 1941) many were sacked from public service and had no means of earning a living; there were arrests, torture, beatings and executions. The fact that Communists were hounded as much as Zionists shows that this regime brooked no dissent and respected no human rights.
Shirin, it is beneath your dignity to call commenters who disagree with you gnats.
I am so sorry. I didn’t want to stoke the flames of this emotional debate again. Quite the opposite: I had hoped that some insights and analysis of the feelings involved might help to explain why everybody got so emotional and – G’d willing – might help to get some understanding of both sides and especially “the other side”.
Well, this hope was obviously in vain and I can only repeat myself: I am very sorry.
Concerning Ella Habiba Shohat you might be right that she is from the left wing of the political spectrum. I don’t know if you regard that as a blemish.
As to Reuven Snir, I had the impression that he is a rather apolitical person, a literary scholar rather in the ivory tower of academia whose forte is rather analysis than taking sides in political fights.
As to Naeim Giladi, I only mentioned that he was *not* part of the film “Forget Baghdad”, implicating “may-be for good reasons”.
But what am I talking? Obviously everybody is already too bitter to keep cool, even less to hear other voices apart from one’s own, so I guess we best end it for good.
Please don’t be sorry, Outsider. You contributed something of value from an excellent source. The fact that not everyone is prepared to accept that not all Arab Jews have shared the same experiences, or processed what they have experienced in the same way is not your fault, nor is the fact that not everyone is prepared to accept that differing viewpoints on the part of Arab Jews are legitimate, or that if Naeim Giladi is bitter, and Samir Naqqash felt alienated in Israel, they might have excellent and perfectly valid reasons.
I am somewhat troubled by this from you: “Obviously everybody is already too bitter to keep cool, even less to hear other voices apart from one’s own…” I hope you do not include me in that “everybody”. First, I am not bitter, second, I have kept cool, if not always completely polite, and third, if you read through my comments here, I repeatedly allude to the differing experiences and differing feelings and views of Arab Jews.
I knew and worked with, and shared recreational activities with many Jews in Iraq. I have worked with and shared thoughts with Arab Jews in the U.S. and Europe. I am working now on a project with some prominent Arab Jews in the U.S. and Britain, including an Iraqi Jewish writer. I have studied Arab Jewish literature and history in the Arab world, and in Israel, including looking below the surface of events. I feel confident that I have a good set of information that leads me to a well-rounded point of view. The bottom line is that Arab Jews are no more monolithic in their experiences and views than are members of any other human group.
And of course, by dismissing and delegitimizing the likes of Ella Shohat for being too lefty; Naeim Giladi as “bitter and twisted”; and the great Arabic writer Samir Naqqash as an “odd bod writer” our interlocutors are simply telling us that they have no real, substantive argument.
“The fact that not everyone is prepared to accept that not all Arab Jews have shared the same experiences”
No one said that … It’s you who sadly rests on the testimony of a minority over a majority … But don’t let that bother you.
“Nor is the fact that not everyone is prepared to accept that differing viewpoints on the part of Arab Jews are legitimate”
Again … you completely ignore the fact you ignore testimony of many Arab Jews who feel they were expelled, namely many (not all) from Iraq. Every person’s ‘experience’ and opinion is legitmate as long as they don’t lie (they may see things differently – which is also valid”
“if not always completely polite”
You call me a gnat … If that’s polite, I shudder to think how far you sink when you get ‘rude’
“you completely ignore the fact you ignore testimony of many Arab Jews who feel they were expelled, namely many (not all) from Iraq.”
The fact that many Iraqi Jews feel they were expelled from Iraq is only relevant as to their feelings about the experience. It is not relevant and has no bearing on the question of whether the Jews were in fact expelled from Iraq. Feelings and facts are two very separate matters. People are entitled to respect for their honest feelings, but feelings do not change reality.
“You call me a gnat…”
I apologize for calling you a gnat. I should have said that the effect of your collective behaviour with your comrades here was gnat-like.
Yes, you kept cool… and I think it would have been preferable to keep also polite (adab!).
But when Bataween writes „you Iraqi Muslims blew it“ (two postings further down), then the debate between individuals turns into something about constructed collectives (you Israelis, you Palestinians, …) and then all hope gets lost it might still turn into something constructive or enlightening.
Experiences are always very subjective. If they were stamped into ones memory so deeply that it leaves its mark in the mind forever, it’s difficult to acknowledge other people might have other experiences, or might have experienced things in a different way. Every mentioning of possible diversity then becomes an endangering of or at least a challenge to the self and then people react like they were being threatened. They feel threatened indeed.
I guess that’s the time for tea and baklava and sympathy. Arguments don’t help in that situation, no matter how striking they may be. Or rather: the more striking they are, the more they are felt as strikes against a precarious self.
It’s not sensible to carry on at that point, it only aggravates injuries and hardens standpoints.
I have enough experience and background in this matter to hold at least a somewhat nuanced view. I have no need, political, social, or emotional, to make anyone into a hero or anyone into a villain. Therefore, I do not need to overly simplify the situation, or overlook critical factors in what actually happened. There were numerous actors in both the exoduses and the situation in Israel, few of whom really cared about what the Arab Jews wanted, let alone what was in their best interest. And the events and the situation were different in each of the Arab countries, as were the reasons for the events. It’s so very easy.
I am not convinced by people, particularly by Ashkenazim, who try to dismiss those who challenge their dearly and passionately held prejudices as “fringe” elements, nor am I terribly sympathetic toward the notion that they feel “threatened”. In any case, it is fruitless to attempt to change deeply entrenched prejudices and beliefs. These discussions are useful, however, in that they may serve to bring others to at least reconsider and look more closely into the one-sided stories they have always heard and believed.
You won’t find that to be the case with Bataween whose website proclaims itself to be about “Jewish refugees” when all he seems to care about are alleged Jewish refugees from Muslim lands. Look over his blogroll as well, replete w. the most vile rightist pro Israel blogs. Seems to me this guy has something to prove rather than an interest in portraying things accurately & in a balanced fashion.
Sorry for the incomplete thought. Meant to say that it is so very easy to pare one’s story down only to those elements, and to create additional elements that will justify the ugly feelings one wants to feel.
Outsider – it’s not that, it’s that Shirin refers to people who disagree with her as gnats. I guess it’s better than being referred to as Dogs …
It’s ok to read what the fringe element of a the ‘political spectrum’ say … But the reaction you’re likely to get is the same reaction I get when I look into what ‘fringe’ Muslim groups (be it extreme right or left) say … Mizrachim who (rightly or wrongly) feel blighted by their experiences in the 1950s and are on the left (or extreme left) political spectrum will no doubt tow a line that represents what Shirin wants to believe. I will say that of the hundreds of Iraqi Jews I’ve talked to, very few show ‘resentment’ for Iraq as a country or the world they left behind. They are however very open about the many hardships and issues they suffered being a minority in the country.
Avram, I do not refer to people who disagree with me as gnats. I refer to people as gnats who buzz around in swarms constantly making the same annoying noises and never changing their noises or their swarming in response to those whom they are assaulting.
You can try to dismiss important figures such as Ella Shohat, Samir Naqqash, Reuven Snir, Avi Shlaim, Ammiel Alcalay, and even Naeim Giladi as well as many, many well-known, less-well-known, and completely unknown individuals all over the world as a “fringe element”, but all your are doing in fact is revealing the paucity of your argument
Shirin
However nostalgic Iraqi Jews might feel about Iraq, the bottom line is that only seven Jews are left. For all your wishful thinking about ‘Arab’ Jews and how Arab they feel and how they hate the Zionists and feel connected to the Palestinians, you Iraqi Muslims blew it – you got rid of them all. Those Jews you knew – presumably in the late 60s – all left, even if they had to cross the northern border on foot, even if they risked being thrown into jail, even if their belongings were stolen on the way. Ask any one of your Jewish friends if they would move back to Iraq – the answer is clearly NO.
Come on! Everyone who could find a place that would take them left Iraq as the situation deteriorated, and that included most of the Muslim, Christian, Jewish, and other intelligentsia. Since 2003, the exodus accelerated exponentially. And I don’t know any Iraqi, Jewish, Christian, Mandaean, Muslim, or even Kurd who would move back to Iraq if they could possibly avoid it, so your argument is useless.
And one has to wonder why, if there are still seven Jews in Iraq, they have chosen to stay there and endure conditions that are horrific for everyone outside the Green Zone instead of running to the Promised Land. I would love to talk with one of them and find out why they are still there.
And your argument is that Christian nations were more accommodating to Jews???? Crusades? Inquisition? Holocaust? Pogroms? I don’t know the history of Jews in Iraq but I wouldn’t trust yr version of it if it was the only one that existed.
“For all your wishful thinking about ‘Arab’ Jews and how Arab they feel and how they hate the Zionists and feel connected to the Palestinians…”
Pardon me? Where did I say the Arab Jews hate the Zionists? In fact, I have never said any such thing. I have also never said that Arab Jews in any general sense feel connected to the Palestinians, although some do. Putting words into the mouth of ones interlocutor is a very dishonest way of arguing, and when you engage in it it reveals the weakness of your argument very clearly.
Outsider
Yes everyone does have different experiences and these experiences are subjective to some extent. But when enough people of a certain ethnic/religious group share the same experience of being hounded out of their country of birth then I think one can objectively say that their experience was one of collective persecution and expulsion.
Al the rest is denial and obfuscation.
“I do not refer to people who disagree with me as gnats. I refer to people as gnats who buzz around in swarms constantly making the same annoying noises and never changing their noises or their swarming in response to those whom they are assaulting.”
You make whatever excuse you want Shireen. It was often time a debate between me and you, and others came in and out for both sides. If you say that’s buzzing and swarming, ok. Whatever floats your boat. At least you didn’t call me a dog.
“You can try to dismiss important figures such as Ella Shohat, Samir Naqqash, Reuven Snir, Avi Shlaim, Ammiel Alcalay, and even Naeim Giladi ”
Again, put words in my mouth. I said they’re in the minority (and that’s the reason you stand by them so passionately and dismiss what most Iraqi Jews talk about).
Putting words in my mouth really does wonders for an argument eh?
“I have enough experience and background in this matter to hold at least a somewhat nuanced view. I have no need, political, social, or emotional, to make anyone into a hero or anyone into a villain”
I think that’s a bit dishonest. Our political points of view do sway us, whether we like it or not.
Richard,
“You won’t find that to be the case with Bataween whose website proclaims itself to be about “Jewish refugees” when all he seems to care about are alleged Jewish refugees from Muslim lands. Look over his blogroll as well, replete w. the most vile rightist pro Israel blogs.”
So any right winger can just come to you and say, “Look over his blogroll as well, replete w. the most vile leftists anti Israel blogs.” ‘Alleged’ Jewish refugees too? That’s pretty disgusting. I guess you’d also call most Arab refugees ‘alleged’ too (especially considering the UNRWA definition)?
Lastly, I’m fairly disappointed that you’ve allowed Shireen to insult me for no reason whatsoever. Can I call her names too? Or do you allow those who have a different pov to be called names and protect those who share your pov?
Avram, you really ought to read through your own comments so you know what you have and have not said before accusing someone of putting words into your mouth:
No, they can’t because I don’t link to vile blogs of any kind. If you’d like I can review ea. blog in his blogroll I find objectionable & tell you why. I assure you I have valid reasons for characterizing those blogs in that way. But you conveniently omitted my main objection to the blog, it focuses on only one class of Jewish refugee and not even the Jewish refugees who suffered the most in Jewish history. Blogs like this are propaganda vehicles for the anti-Muslim, pro-Israel forces.
There are some. But not nearly as many as the propagandists I referred to above would have us believe. I would never claim that life for Arab Jews was idyllic just as life for European Jews was far fr it. But I don’t see any websites demonzing Chrisitianity or Europeans for their genocidal treatment of Jews today. But I do see right wing propagandists doing that to Muslims & I object to it.
This is the 4th time you’ve repeated that you’re PO’ed that Shirin referred to you as a gnat. Would you get over it, please. I’ve been called a lot worse as has Shirin here. She argues passionately for her position just as you do. If she ever goes over the line I will let her know. Gnat isn’t the most decorous term to use to refer to another person, but you’re being far too thin skinned to make a big deal out of this.
Arab Jews were not segregated in shtetls, let alone forced to live in walled ghettos, but were free to live anywhere in their countries of residence. They were not limited to certain ways of earning a living, but had all professions open to them, and in some cases they dominated certain professions. They were particularly prominent and respected in law, medicine, music, literature, and academia. The best and most popular bookstore in Baghdad was owned and run by a Jewish family.
Contrary to attempts to claim otherwise, Arab Jews were not subjected to regular pogroms as European Jews were. They were much better integrated into society.
Shireen, how come the Mizrachi/Arab Jew sources you like are those who slant to the political left, and some to the extreme left? I have NO ISSUES with reading those opinions (I haven’t read two of them I think, but I hopefully will in the next few days/weeks), who those on the far spectrum. I’m fairly open to reading most stuff (even stuff that I find sickening – be it left or right) just to get a better understanding of what most/all people see.
“I don’t link to vile blogs of any kind.”
Richard, I remember once there was I found 2-3 anti-Semitic (to do with ‘Vows’ and Judaism/Yom Kippur) comments on your blog. When I told you, you deleted it straight away and warned the user. I’ve seen similar posts in Mondoweiss … They are rarely deleted. There’s others but again, I don’t really care. I still read your view even though I disagree on stuff. I just find that ‘closing’ off information due to ‘blog roll’ is something that would infuriate you if it was the other way around. For example, a guy I used to call my friend once gave me hell for linking my blog to a Iraqi blogger I really liked. Now granted, that blogger wasn’t the most friendly in his critique of Israel or the US, and I disagreed with him but I really bonded with his honesty and his way of writing.
“it focuses on only one class of Jewish refugee and not even the Jewish refugees who suffered the most in Jewish history.”
That Ashkenazi Jewry suffered more in the Holocaust is true. That Sefardi Jewry had as equally a difficult time during the Inquisition is true. However, that blog is dedicated to the Arab Jew (an issue that was rarely talked about from what I understand until the 1970s). Last year, you slammed some poster on Magnes Zionist for not asking Jerry to post about Gilad etc, “It’s his blog, he can write what he chooses about and just because he doesn’t, doesn’t mean he doesn’t have an opinion” (I’m paraphrasing obviously but you get the point). It’s the same thing here I think.
“Blogs like this are propaganda vehicles for the anti-Muslim, pro-Israel forces”
I think you’re generalizing here big time. It would be like me saying that your blog can be used by anti-Israel forces. Sure it can, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t read what it has to say.
“But I don’t see any websites demonzing Chrisitianity or Europeans for their genocidal treatment of Jews today”
I think that’s a valid point BUT I would say European Jewry has moved on and developed itself rather nicely (hasn’t, and never will, happen in the Arab world) and the Mizrachim still (like the Ethiopians) still have yet to properly get over the hump (in my opinion at last) themselves in Israel (but they’re well on their way).
“Gnat isn’t the most decorous term to use to refer to another person, but you’re being far too thin skinned to make a big deal out of this.”
Richard, if it was in the middle of the arguement. I would understand because I’m sure we’ve both said, or had leveled at us, harsher terms. But it came well after the discussion had ended and was more of a ‘low blow’ because she thought I wasn’t paying attention to my e-mail warnings. I think debates, even between those who disagree, should be done as respectfully as possible. But point taken, I’m over it!
Agreed. But I’m not Shirin. I respect both her pt of view & the way in which she expresses herself. I have been known to go off on some of my more annoying right wing commenters here. Even my wife chides me for it sometimes. Shiron too has gone off on some folks here who were quite deserving of her opprobrium imo. But “gnat” was one of her less offensive epithets.
I’d venture to say that the blog is really dedicated to scoring pts for Israel in its unending holy war with Islam (others’ opinion, not my own). I have no problem & in fact would encourage any blog truly dedicated to studying & understanding Arab Jewry. That’s not what this blog does.
What is wrong, Richard, with a blog that focuses on Jewish refugees from Muslim lands? Someone has to. When did you ever give a damn about them?
As for my blogroll there are listed sites of all political leanings and none. It’s news to me to learn that Meretz is a vile, right-leaning site!
As for Shirin’s point that no exiled Mandaean, Kurd or member of the Iraqi intelligentsia would set foot in Iraq, of course the Jews are not alone. You reinforce my point that what begins with the Jews never ends with them. Iraq was for a long time a fear society and everyone was oppressed. But the Jews were the first minority to be ethnically cleansed from Iraq; the Assyrians are not far behind.
The seven Jews left behind are nothing to be proud of – they are elderly and poor, the pitiful remnant of a once great community numbering 150,000.
Betaween, this entire comment of yours is fundamentally dishonest, but your placing the refugee label on Arab Jews who emigrated to Israel is so far beyond dishonest that it is hard to know how to characterize it. There were hundreds of thousands of European Jews who were refugees in every sense of the word, but the situation of the Arab Jews was completely different beginning with the fact that their troubles were almost entirely the result of Zionism in Palestine, and in many cases of Zionist undergrounds operating in their home countries. For the most part they were less pushed out than they were pulled out, and the pushing that did take place was almost entirely a reaction to the events in Palestine.
And how interesting that you say the Jews were the first minority to be “ethnically cleansed” from Iraq. How do you explain that the Jews were there as a very successful and integral part of Iraqi society for thousands of years, and it was only in the mid-20th century after a group of European Jewish nationalists began to make serious trouble in the Arab world that things began to change for Iraqi Jews?
As for the seven who are left, the question is why have they chosen to stay there even now in the face of the horrors that all Iraqis have encountered since 2003. Why have they resisted efforts on the part of Israel to bring them to their supposedly “true homeland”? Especially since they are elderly and poor, you would think that they would jump at the chance to live in a relatively comfortable, peaceful place, where their basic needs would certainly be subsidized. Why have they chosen to turn all that down to stay in such a hell hole as Iraq has become?
Your right-wing pro-Israel blogroll: Israpundit, Normblog, Christians Standing with Israel, Anglican Friends of Israel, Dry Bones, MEMRI, Solomonia, Israelly Cool, Harry’s Place. Oh, do you include Meretz? How kind of you to do a little slumming in the liberal pro-Israel blogosphere. Do you think one liberal blog compensates for yr obvious rightist pro-Israel bias?? BTW, I’m prepared to concede that you may not know there are progressive Zionist sites out there that you could link to & prepared to offer you suggestions if you want to expand yr perspective. Until then, your blogroll speaks volumes about yr biases.
This is a lie. Read my comment rules. If you feel you must engage in slogans and grandstanding save it for yr own blog. I reserve phrases like ethnic cleansing for events that merit that profound & profoundly disturbing phrase. Whatever suffering the Iraqi Jews endured–calling it ethnic cleansing is an abuse of history. Do not try that again here.
“The fact that many Iraqi Jews feel they were expelled from Iraq is only relevant as to their feelings about the experience. It is not relevant and has no bearing on the question of whether the Jews were in fact expelled from Iraq. Feelings and facts are two very separate matters. People are entitled to respect for their honest feelings, but feelings do not change reality”
I don’t agree with this 100% Shireen … but it’s not relevant to discussion for now, so we’ll discuss it at a later date if/when it pops up.
“I have no idea what CiF is or who the CiF lady is”
Serious? That is surprising to be honest!
“Contrary to attempts to claim otherwise, Arab Jews were not subjected to regular pogroms as European Jews were. They were much better integrated into society.”
THe pogroms were not regular – but there were many of them. And I think your write up about residence (there weren’t not in ghettos, but they could not live everywhere) and professions (they were limited in various sectors during various tiem periods) is a bit generalized. You make it seem as if they were living in a society as equals, when that wasn’t the case for many.
When you have to go back more than a thousand years to list pogroms, against Jews, I would say that is more that merely “not regular”. And, of course, you ignore the fact that Jews were not the only ones subjected to violence during those periods, and that in fact Muslims were subjected to their share if not more than their share.
Maybe, if you want to go back a couple of thousand years you will find periods during which Jews in some areas had limitations on professions or where they could live, but then so did others during those times, including many Muslims. During my lifetime and for a long time before it Jews could, and did, live anywhere they wanted to, including in any town or city, including in the most elite neighborhoods. They also belonged to the best clubs during a time when Jews were barred from most country clubs in the United States. Most of us had one or more Jewish neighbors who were simply part of the neighborhood, and not seen as somehow separate.
“you have to go back more than a thousand years to list pogroms, against Jews, I would say that is more that merely “not regular”. And, of course, you ignore the fact that Jews were not the only ones subjected to violence during those periods, and that in fact Muslims were subjected to their share if not more than their share.”
I think you’re being dishonest Shireen. 1000 years? Tell me, is 1941 1000 years ago? When did the Baghdad Synagogue get burned down last? I could go on but it’s irrelevant. You preach to Bataween not to be extreme but then you take the exact stance on the opposite end of the spectrum.
Who said I ignored the fact? Are you putting words in my mouth … again?
“Maybe, if you want to go back a couple of thousand years you will find periods during which Jews in some areas had limitations on professions or where they could live, but then so did others during those times, including many Muslims.”
Couple of thousand years? Are you for real?
“During my lifetime and for a long time before it Jews could, and did, live anywhere they wanted to, including in any town or city, including in the most elite neighborhoods.”
No one ever said ‘no Jews’ … Of course some Jews had those privileges. That you again claim it was an option available to all of them shows tremendous bias. I know you ‘ignore’ the feelings of many Iraqi Jews on their feelings of expulsion from their homeland – I wonder if you also ignore them when they say they couldn’t live everywhere or work in any profession they wanted …
“They also belonged to the best clubs during a time when Jews were barred from most country clubs in the United States.”
All Jews belonged to the best clubs Shireen? Or just a select few of very wealthy and powerful Jews …
“Most of us had one or more Jewish neighbors who were simply part of the neighborhood, and not seen as somehow separate”
That sounds like the “Oh I even had a black friend” line. Again, no one is denying a % of Jews did very well in the Arab world. It would be insanity do say they didn’t – and it reached a wide scope too, from entertainment to politics to banking. But that was not the norm …
1. So, you can name one pogrom against Jews that took place in Iraq within the last century. And of course you are not interested in considering the context in which that singular event took place and what led up to it; the fact that the second day consisted mainly of the kind of opportunistic looting that takes place after any disaster when there is a complete breakdown in law and order. You also would perhaps prefer to overlook the reaction of the majority of Iraqis to the event. Considering all of that might require you to look at the Farhud from a nuanced point of view. Unfortunately for you and others who try to use the Farhud to score points, I have studied it, what led up to it, and its aftermath in some detail from several points of view, have known Jews and others who were there at the time and remember it.
2. Jews were as free to live where they wanted to as were members of any other group. Those Muslims, Christians, Jews, Mandaeans, Kurds, Turkomens and “others” who had more means also had more choices. That is the way of the world everywhere in the world, like it or not.
3. Are you suggesting that the best clubs were available to any Muslim, Christian, Mandaean, Kurd, Turkman regardless of their socio-economic level, and that only Jews were required to be elites in order to join? If so, please do share whatever it is you are smoking. Again, it is the way of the world that elite clubs are the province of elites. It might be unfair, but that’s how it is. The thing is that in Iraq elite Jews were not barred from joining clubs while in the U.S. they were.
4. Are you suggesting that it was the norm for Muslims, Christians, and others to do “very well” in the Arab world, but not for Jews? If so, I really want to have whatever you are smoking because that doesn’t fit with any reality I know about. In fact, in the Arab world the large majority of every group, including Muslims, lived in poverty, often at a bare subsistence level. Based on data I have seen, Jews if anything did a bit better economically overall than other groups, including Muslims, in countries like Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Morocco, Tunisia, etc.
5. Your snide remark about “I even had a black friend” doesn’t deserve the dignity of a response.
Avram is right – 1941, the year of the Farhud in which 180 Jews were murdered is not a thousand years ago. In fact the biggest fear among Jews who left for Israel in 1950 was that another Farhud would break out.
As for Jews doing so well and being so well integrated, this is only true for the period 1917 – 1933. In the 1930s Iraq introduced quotas on higher education – not every Jew who wanted to study medicine or law was allowed to do so – and hundreds of Jewish civil servants were sacked from their jobs. Later, Jews in the private sector were also not allowed to work. In the late 60s their telephones were cut off and bank accounts frozen – and these were the Jews who had chosen NOT to go to Israel, but stay in Iraq.
Shirin have you heard of the word dhimmi? This is what Jews were until the late 19th century. According to David Sassoon’s diary, visiting the shrine of Ezekiel in 1910, the Jews of Hillah were still ‘dhimmi’ – and Sassoon could hardly be accused of a political agenda:
“The Jews are very poor and oppressed by the Sheikhs. Till a few years ago the Jews had limited rights. They had to wear a red patch on their outer garments. They were not allowed to ride on a donkey or horse in town. They were not allowed to walk in the streets on a rainy day in case they would splash water on a Moslem. They were not allowed to wear green – the holy colour of the Moslems. If they would, the Moslem would take it from him and give him a good beating. When they walked in the streets they had to keep a good distance away from the Moslems in case their clothes would touch and defile them. They were not allowed to touch the fruit or vegetables in the shop before buying and if they did touch anything it was considered defiled and they had to buy it. They were not allowed to build their houses higher than the Moslems or to build a balcony over the streets because a Moslem could not walk under a Jewish house and other similar restrictions.”
If this is not institutionalised discrimination, what is?
First, you’ve described the situation in one community in Iraq. What was the situation like in the largest community, Baghdad? Second, you’ve used a western, non-Iraqi observer as yr source. I don’t know enough about Sassoon to say whether he is realiable or not. But I’d vastly prefer to read what Iraqi Jews had to say about the same situation if there were any such sources.
Richard, come to an Iraqi shul in Jerusalem next time you visit. Or go to one in the US. Ask the people who don’t get published what they saw/felt – I think the answer will be quite telling …
I would like to hear about it from Iraqis as well. I certainly was not around in 1910, and I never spent much time or knew any Jews in or from Hilla, but I never saw or heard of anything remotely like this from any of the Iraqi Jews I have known. I am not going to believe this story just based on this one account, especially coming from our friend betaween whose agenda is and always has been very, very clear.
Oh, god, not the old dhimmi canard again! Please do give it a rest. Dhimmi is an antiquated concept and word that went out of use centuries ago, and was recently revived by Israel hasbarists and islamophobes who have transmogrified it into something quite different than it was. Dhimmi is derived from the Arabic word Dhimma, which means to protect. Dhimmis were free non-Muslims living in the Islamic empire during a particular period in history. They were mainly Christians, Jews, Mandaeans, and Zoroastrians, also referred to as Ahl Al Kitab, People of the Book (the Bible); that is fellow Believers in the one God. Zoroastrians were added as “People of the Book” later in history for reasons that are a bit obscure.
I want to see something that confirms this story about Hilla.
PS The dhimmi concept was actually quite progressive for its day.
I tI think most blogs look to score points one way or another. If I was to be honest, a few articles I post are to score points for Israel and then a few I guess take away! But still, the point is what blog doesn’t push forward a point of view? Surely you look to score points too – be it with one group or another. We all do.
The CIF lady is Rachel Sh…. (I don’t remember the spelling of her last name) – she’s very angry still at what happened in the 1950s in Israel with the arrival of Mizrachi Jewry and acts as if they’re still living in ma’abarot and have no chances to advance in our society.
I think her name is Rachel Shabi or something similar to that.
As for scoring pts, I don’t agree. We all seek to persuade, but not all of us are scoring pts. That’s akin to propagandizing & it rings hollow. I’ve learned to sense it immediately when I read someone’s comments here.
I have no problem with argument and persuasion. But grandstanding or treating the issues like its a left-right debate society is just plain boring.
Yes, Rachel Shabi. I am actually working with an Arab group on having her come to our area as part of a presentation on Arab Jews. I look forward to meeting her.
Shreen, Rachel Shabi is a second generation of Iraqi Jewish parents. she wasn’t born in Iraq and did not experience what the Jews of Iraq experienced. She cannot represent the Jews of Iraq based on a second degree experience.
I know who Rachel Shabi is, and I know her history. No one has said she represents the Jews of Iraq. She is certainly qualified to write and speak about Iraqi Jews and the Iraqi Jewish experience, and she is without a doubt more qualified to do so than some Ashkenazi Israeli with an axe to grind against Arabs.
It may be boring but I think it rings true most of the time.
Again though, as long as we debate it honestly (as there’s very definitive ‘groups’ on this site, or any comment board for that matter) and respectfully, at least we can enjoy time spent on it.
David Sassoon was not a western Jew – he was an Iraqi Jew from India. The situation he describes existed all over the Muslim world until the colonial era and still exists wherever Sharia law operates today.
In Iraq, Iran and northern Yemen where there are large populations of Shia Muslims, there is this additional prejudice that the Muslim must not touch the Jew who is unclean or ‘najas’. Jews were even known to be executed in 19th c Persia if they went out in the rain and brushed against a Muslim.
You have merely presented evidence that such practice existed in one Iraqi town at one particular historical time. Yet you extrapolate globally fr. that & illegitimately so. You present anecdotes w/o any support for them. Anecdotes are interesting if true. But they aren’t decisive in painting an accurate overall picture of anything.
This vast overstatement diminishes yr argument if it has any validity (which is arguable). It may convince those who already are pro-Israel in the lowest sense. But it turns off anyone who has a more balanced approach to the issues. If you want to grandstand using such odious overstatement you’re going to do it somewhere else.
How do you know there are 7 Jews left in Iraq? Who told you so? Who counted them? Besides, Jews leave a country for thousands of diff. reasons not all of which correspond to yr ideological diagnosis of ethnic cleansing. I have never read any serious scholar or journalist use this term, which indicates just how far out in right field you are.
Personally, I think your alleged census numbers are not accurate. Pls. provide some authentification of them.
I’m not going to allow you to use the term again here. If you do, you’re outa here. Follow the rules or don’t bother.
“The situation he describes existed all over the Muslim world until the colonial era and still exists wherever Sharia law operates today.”
That is utter crap. Furthermore, you do not have even the remotest clue what Sharia law (sic) is.
“Jews were the first minority to be ethnically cleansed from Iraq”
This is not grandstanding, this is the truth. What do you call the fact seven Jews are left out of 150,000? I call it ‘ethnic cleansing’ and so would many others. Not a single Jew in Libya. Only 30 in Egypt out of 80,000. 50 in Syria out of 30,000. (Not a single Jew allowed to live in Jordan oreven enter Saudi Arabia)
One million Jews lived in the Arab world. Today there are only 4,000. That’s ethnic cleansing.
” Besides, Jews leave a country for thousands of diff. reasons not all of which correspond to yr ideological diagnosis of ethnic cleansing”
What are the thousands of different reasons the Jews left the Arab world in the 1950s?
It’s odd. I had an Iraqi taxi cab driver yesterday in Ramat Gan. He left the country when he was 10. He doesn’t remember it all that clearly. But he recounts stories passed on by his parents etc. He said his parents, and I quote, “had to leave, staying in Iraq wasn’t an option” (חייבים לעזוב, לאשאר שם לא הייה אופציה). Funnily enough, he still talks rather warmly, or even romantically, about the country. He’s the norm …
“How do you know there are 7 Jews left in Iraq? Who told you so? Who counted them?”
I’ve yet to see you knit pick on such details with people who have a more ‘left wing’ approach Richard. It again highlights what I said earlier about ‘scoring points’. 7 isn’t a bad number – I thought the immigration after the beginning of Gulf War II left Iraq Jew ‘free’.
” I have never read any serious scholar or journalist use this term, which indicates just how far out in right field you are.”
Let’s look at the definition of Ethnic Cleansing from thefreedicitionary.com:
“The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide.”
… Now since it was done rather systematically (look at the rights that were Jews were deprived of in the 1930s onwards for example) and since they were removed from Iraqi society (probably permanently), then the last thing to debate is ‘the method’. Now the dictionary gives ‘three’ options of which the 2nd is debatable (it will depend on who you ask – and I don’t know if there’s a ‘polling’ of Iraqi Jews to get a ‘majority viewpoint’), though other options (be it forced by Zionists like some propagandists go on about or whatever) are obviously a possibility too. The term cannot be used if you reserve ethnic cleansing say for ‘cleansing’ like what happened in the Balkans in the ’90s – which it seems that’s what you’re doing (for the exact same reason it seems that you won’t use Bataween use the term)
Bombings orchestrated by Zionist agents & perhaps even legitimate lobbying by Israeli agents seeking to persuade Arab Jews to make aliyah. Economic reasons–the belief they might do better in Israel. Family reasons–they may have family members already in Israel & want to join them.
Perhaps you can parse the “real” meaning of this statement. I can’t. It could mean 100 diff. things. Besides, this man was 10 when he left. Admittedly, he doesn’t know firsthand anything of his parents specific reasons nor do you provide them except in generalized terms. I’m prepared to concede life was hard to many Arab Jews. But I’m not prepared to concede there was a massive physical expulsion on the order of the Israeli Nakba. You can work on that all you want but you can’t legitimately get there I’m afraid.
You call my demand that someone verify their claims “knit picking.” I’m sorry but anytime an ideologue makes a claim around here they have to justify it. If they can’t then the claim isn’t worth a pot of borsht or whatever the Iraqi Jewish equivalent would be. I’m waiting for evidence fr. you or him for the claim.
I’m not talking about a dictionary definition. I’m talking about whether a credible, serious scholar of Arab Jewry has ever used the term. You know as well as I none would have except someone who buys the anti-Muslim pro-Israel narrative. Sure you’ll find Daniel Pipes or Judea Pearl & his ilk endorsing this. But not anyone serious.
And the emigration of Arab Jews doesn’t even fit the definition you’ve offered since there was so “systematic elimination.”
This is the end of this debate. No more discussion of ethnic cleansing in this context. If you need to advance this bogus theory go to Harry’s Place or some suitable den of pro-Israelism.
Richard- Do you think that hanging the bodies of 9 Jews in the centre of Baghdad is the works of Zionism as well, or maybe the disapearing of many Jewish men and women in the seventies was the work of Zionism or not allowing the jews to work or study in universities is another of the zionist agents.
Israel has done more than its share of black ops in Arab countries to spook Jews into emigrating. Do you deny the history? Am I saying Jews weren’t mistreated at certain times in certain countries? No. Beyond that, what’s yr pt?
Ah yes! When Jews are hanged in the center of Baghdad, or disappeared, etc., it can only be because they are Jews, but when even larger numbers of Muslims, or Christians, or Kurds, or Turkmens are hanged, or disappeared, etc., it is not at all about their identity, of course.
By the way, just as an FYI, we knew Muslims and Christians who were murdered or disappeared in the ’70′s, and did you know that after the Ba’th party took over the Americans gave them lists of Iraqi Communists the Americans wanted liquidated? A lot of Iraqi Communists were Jews, but I suppose in those cases they were not liquidated because they were Communists, but because they were Jews. Only the Muslims and Christians were liquidated for being Communists.
Seven Jews in Iraq – we know who they are.
There’s the ex-accountant himself, plus the nephew with whom he shares a rented house in Baghdad’s central Karrada district. There’s the man who lives near them, the man who leads the community, the very old woman, the male doctor and the female dentist. And the man whose brother was a goldsmith.
The goldsmith married the dentist a few years ago. A few months later, he was abducted by gunmen.
So that leaves eight.In fact one has since left. Seven Jews in Iraq.
Happy now?
You’ll be even gladder to know I’m not going to respond to you any more, Richard. You are so deeply in denial about things you find it inconvenient to believe that I won’t be wasting any more time here.
No, do you understand what evidence is? Not your listing the supposed occupations of specific Jews, but a credible piece of evidence that confirms yr claim.
Bataween knows that there are 7 Jews in Iraq as I do. Do you want there names and addresses and maybe their telephone numbers; or maybe even if we do this, you will accuse us that we fabricated the names, addresses and numbers. These people are old and they live in poverty but they fear changes. Is this really the issue or it is that there were 150,000 Jews in Iraq and now there are only seven.
This is sophistry. Find a credible source that says there are 7 Jews left in Iraq. I put it to him & I put it to you.
And are you claiming that Jews were singled out and deliberately exiled out of Muslim Jew-hatred? If so, you’re smokin’ some powerful weed. Every ethnic group esp. minorities suffered terribly in Iraq, not just Jews. But certainly Jews suffered as well. Many Kurds, Shiites and Sunni have wanted to leave but couldn’t. The fact that Jews could get out is lucky for them.
I have seven Jewish neighbors. There is the young rabbi across the street and up one, her husband and their two kids, a girl three and a boy just under a year. Then there is the retired dentist and his wife, who still teaches math part time at the local community college. They live right around the corner from me. He’s kind of boring, but she is really fun to be around and interesting to talk to. And then there is the single mom and her five year old son. They just recently moved in, so I don’t know them very well. I think she told me her ex is Japanese. The kid looks Asianish, anyway. Is that seven? One, two, three, then four and five, then six and sevenh. Yeah, that’s it, seven.
Bataween, the unanswered question is still if there are seven Jews in Iraq, why have they chosen to stay in what has become a true hell hole, especially for minorities, instead of allowing the Israelis to take them out of there and fly them for free to the security and relative comfort of the Promised Land where they would live freely, surrounded by other Jews, and where their needs would be subsidized by the State for the rest of their lives. What holds them there when they clearly have the opportunity to leave and have a much better situation? Why haven’t you even tried to pretend to answer that?
They are old and fragile and fearfull of any change.
But not fearful enough of losing their lives to leave.
Then it looks like they have some attachment to their homeland, Iraq, and reasonable confidence that they are not in any more danger than any other Iraqi. And how do you explain the fact that they did not leave before they became old and fragile?
By the way, I do recall seeing some articles in the mainstream U.S. press after the 2003 invasion about the handful of Jews still in Iraq, and recall how they spoke to how their non-Jewish neighbors were looking after them, and protecting them and their property along with their own. Who knows? Maybe that’s why they prefer to remain where they are among the people they have lived with and known all their lives.
“Bombings orchestrated by Zionist agents”
The ‘famous’ one was proven false I think – I only say I think because I cannot remember the source (and you may challenge it’s veracity). It had to do with the police report and the grenade type it said was used (The report said that at the time, the Israelis didn’t have those kind of grenades).
“I’m not prepared to concede there was a massive physical expulsion on the order of the Israeli Nakba”
Ok – I never said it was physical as a ‘whole’ (it may have been for various families). It was an expulsion though because the situation was created – and by who/how/why etc is the debate it seems – where most Iraqi Jews felt they needed to leave. Not related, I would be interested to see how you see the mass emigration of European Jewry AFTER the Holocaust (45-48) to the US/the Mandate etc – was that an expulsion? or how would you define that?
“If they can’t then the claim isn’t worth a pot of borsht or whatever the Iraqi Jewish equivalent would be”
I think Chamin or some meaty rice dish will suffice.
“I’m waiting for evidence fr. you or him for the claim”
If it’s the 7 Jew claim, I didn’t make it. As I said, I thought there were ZERO Jews after the last wave during the 2nd Gulf War. That there are 7 was new to me.
“I’m talking about whether a credible, serious scholar of Arab Jewry has ever used the term. ”
So what term do you want to use? The tragic end of Arab Jewry? I think this sounds to me like the ‘Holocaust’ argument where people get upset if I say what happened in Cambodia or Rwanda were ‘small’ Holocausts.
“systematic elimination.”
It wasn’t elimination – Heaven forbid. It was something that was systematic in that it was planned (rights removed, etc etc)
“This is the end of this debate.”
This kind of comment disappoints me. I’ve not commented on the blog for a while, but I’ve defended it on other blogs (be it left/middle/right) where you’ve been slammed for being x y z and not allowing any honest debate to continue if it doesn’t follow your viewpoint. As long as we’re respectful and discussing things maturely, there’s no need to stop the discussion.
I resent the position into which you are trying to force me & you should know better if you honor truth and accuracy. But you know as well as I that no matter how much Jews suffered that “feeling you need to leave a country” is not the same as ethnic cleansing. Period.
So you’re claiming that this alleged ethnic cleansing of Arab Jews was preceded by the slaughter of 6 million of them, after which most of the rest who survived fled?
You “thought” zero, he claimed seven. That’s why I like facts & evidence rather than what one person thinks or another claims.
I don’t believe I’ve ever asked you to defend me anywhere. I don’t imagine the types of places you’re talking about are places where I much care what is said about my views.
You can discuss whatever you want, except making the claim that the plight of Arab Jewry was the result of ethnic cleansing. What the people you’re referring to mistake is the important function I serve in facilitating discussion so that it doesn’t veer off into cloud cuckoo land of conspiracy theories & wild claims. My aim is to keep commenters far to the right or left honest. Ethnic cleansing is a dishonest claim because it isn’t supported by real evidence. Frankly, I don’t give a crap if some twit (not you) moans about this being censorship or whatever the hell they want. This is editing, an honest profession and important to the quality of a book, magazine or blog.
What do you call: Not to allow a Jew to attend university just because of his religion; not allowing a Jew to have a membership in a social club; not allowing a Jew to have a telephone line; not to allow the Jews to leave their city; not to allow a Jew to have a passport and therefore travel abroad; not to allow a Jew to work in the public sector to lead to not being able to work in the private sector; not to allow a Jew to sell his assets; not to allow a Jew to access his monies at the bank; not to allow a Jew to have a business or open an LC under his name; Jews held a different documents than the rest of the population; people just disappeared from their homes, from the street. Some even were killed in their homes. Some didn’t even receive a proper burial because their bodies are still missing and many other examples.
I say this because I left Iraq in 1973 and I experienced all this and I know people who lost their lives because of the ethnic cleansing.
Why the suffering of the Jews of the Arab countries is always minimized? Why do you think 900,000 Jews had to leave their place of birth and be refugees if they weren’t targeted? If this is not ethnic cleansing, what is it then?
Regarding the number of Jews in Iraq, I know that there are 6 people left, the seventh died recently.
I’m going to say this loud and clear. The next person who uses the term ETHNIC CLEANSING here will be banned. Your comment is anti-Muslim propaganda plus it repeats what has already been written here. DO NOT repeat verbatim arguments already raised. Hearing something five times doesn’t make it any more true after the 5th time.
Richard, this response is unlike you but I’ll reply nonetheless.
“I resent the position into which you are trying to force me”
I’m not trying to force you into anything. If you don’t feel it’s right, disagree and that’s it.
“
So you’re claiming that this alleged ethnic cleansing of Arab Jews was preceded by the slaughter of 6 million of them, after which most of the rest who survived fled?”
No Richard, I didn’t say this. I was asking a question to see if I can better understand how you view movement of people that DOESN’T fall under your definition of ethnic cleansing. That comment though is really uncalled for –
“You “thought” zero, he claimed seven. That’s why I like facts & evidence rather than what one person thinks or another claims”
Again, a totally unnecessary comment. That’s what I think – and I never claimed it’s truth NOR brought into any debate with you. Again, your ‘tone’ in these comments is totally uncalled for.
“I don’t believe I’ve ever asked you to defend me anywhere”
Oh well, I won’t continue. I’m sorry.
“Ethnic cleansing is a dishonest claim because it isn’t supported by real evidence.”
How do YOU define it then?
“The next person who uses the term ETHNIC CLEANSING here will be banned. Your comment is anti-Muslim propaganda”
I doubt anyone blames the ‘Arab masses’ or ‘Muslim Masses’ for this. This was pushed by governments – ie individuals with power and agendas – this is NOT an anti-religion or anti-nation thing (at least not with me). To be honest, it seems you’re more anti the word because you don’t want to equate the Palestinian refugee issue with the Jewish refugee issue (ie political).
Actually, the supposed “Jewish refugee” issue is a means of torpedoing the Right of Return. Rightists & their fellow travelers on this issue (like you) hope that by raising this issue Palestinians will be forced to abandon their efforts for the Right of Return. But it won’t work because the moral issues are of diff. orders of magnitude.
I just lost my whole response – so I will paraphrase.
- I think you’re again assuming what people think when they took about historical events. I’m rather startled that you cannot call them “Jewish Refugees” now.
- Right of Return will never happen the way I assume you (or UNRWA) want it to happen. It will probably be on the Olmert/Abbas scope.
- I’ve met a few ‘characters’ who say those who criticize Israel is anti-semitic propaganda. Yah, I know, I sometimes don’t know if they’re being serious or just oblivious to the fact that governments / individuals make mistakes. Any discussion about the Mizrachim is not ‘anti-Muslim propaganda’ (if anything, it would be anti-Arab because it had little to do with Muslims all around the world), it’s about decisions made by governments / individuals that ended ancient communities. If I were to talk about the ‘Orphan Law’ in Yemen, is that ‘anti-Muslim’ propaganda? Or is that talking about a historical fact that was pushed by a minority? You get the point. It has nothing to do with having ‘a go’ at Islam – just like suicide bombers aren’t ‘Islam’, but a wraped interpretation by radicals within the faith.
“PS The dhimmi concept was actually quite progressive for its day.”
I’m not arguing with you here at all – I just want to know why you think this (in other words, I’m curious).
“Yes, Rachel Shabi. I am actually working with an Arab group on having her come to our area as part of a presentation on Arab Jews. I look forward to meeting her”
I wish you could actually talk to people who represented the ‘majority’ with Arab Jewry … She doesn’t and I guess she’ll say everything you guys want (need?) to hear, but hey, every group does this so ‘no harm, no foul.’
I don’t think it Avram, it is accepted as an advancement in the status of minorities in that historical period. You need to judge past periods in the context of the world view of the time, not today’s world view. The concept of dhimmi in the context of today’s world view would be backward, but in those days it was a step forward.
We are Muslims, Christians, and secular persons who wish to meet with and get to know Arab Jews who are interested in inclusiveness and unity, as we are. We wish to talk with Arab Jews who are interested in creating positive relationships, as we are. We wish to talk with Arab Jews who will help us deepen our knowledge and appreciation of our mutual history and culture. We are not interested in talking to those who seek conflict. The event we are working on is about sharing our common history, experience, and culture, and hopefully forming bonds and cooperative relationships. Therefore we seek out Arab Jews who share our goals.
“advancement in the status of minorities ”
How?
“To know Arab Jews who are interested in inclusiveness and unity”
Then why are you meeting her? She’s made quite wrong allegations about Israeli soceity and the influence of Arab Jewry. Any one who studies their history IN Israel will know that they were mistreated and there was many issues (we’re seeing the same thing with Ethiopians now). But to say this still ‘really’ exists bar in various small communities (ie extreme elements within the Ultra Orthodox world) is ridiculous. Israel’s food culture is almost entirely what the Arab Jews bought over – the Music, politicans etc … Are there still a few barriers to cross? Sure, PM for example (but look how long it took America to have a black prez) but we’ve had a mizrachi chief of staff (albeit a terrible one), a mizrachi defense minister etc etc … She has an agenda Shireen. If you’re really interested in what I quoted, you’d see it too.
“The event we are working on is about sharing our common history, experience, and culture, and hopefully forming bonds and cooperative relationships.”
That is obviously doable – and honorable.
This is what I so dislike about this kind of discourse. A blanket statement is made w. absolutely no proof offered to support it. That’s not the way I work over here. If you want to attack someone who has something serious to say, you must offer support & evidence & not generalizations as you have.
Are you really claiming all is honky dory for Israel’s Mizrahim? You’re not really claiming that are you? Can you be oblivious to all the academic & sociological evidence to the contrary? Can you be oblivious to the continuing ethnic anger & hostility bet. Ashkenazi & Sephardi within Israeli society? What you’re claiming is akin to claiming that Blacks have it made in U.S. society and racism is basically a thing of the past. Any serious person would have to laugh at you for making such a ridiculous claim.
Richard – there are still issues in this society re: Mizrachim/Asheknazim. The country isn’t even 70 years old, there’s still a LOT to work on. That there’s been improvements since the 1950s is undeniable – and it’s improving, though I still see the issues. The ‘ethnic anger’ & ‘hostility’? Most of my friends are Mizrachim, children of immigrants etc and I don’t see it. I served in the army, the units were obviously mixed – nothing of what you say. Does it exist? Yes Richard, is it as bad you claim it is? No.
Siona Jenkins in the FT review of Shabi’s book said, “Shabi’s conclusion is that Israel’s inability to come to terms with its own connections to the region can only hinder any future peaceful coexistence within it.” Now how are we not coming to terms with our ‘past’? Food? Music? Politics?
She also claims this, “After so many years of learning to hate their own rejected Arab features and having to hide them, the Mizrahis simply projected all that revulsion on to the neighboring Arab community.” Now a) this proves my point earlier (that most Arab Jews are not as you/Shireen claim) b) I don’t know how she can say they ‘hate’ their Arab features (many still speak Arabic, their foods, their ‘nigunim’ at shul etc) – can you perhaps tell me?
I know there’s many issues still – I’ve said that and I get really pissed off when people say it’s been ‘dealt with.’ It hasn’t, and I struggle to see HOW it will be in the coming decades as the ‘security issue’ paper over ALL the other issues we have here it seems (be it the social clashes, or the religious clashes, or our piss poor education system) … It’s a young country – I hope I live to see us right these wrongs (as well as live side by side in peace with a future Palestine).
I actually agree with most of what you wrote. But I think Shabi is correct in her analysis. I don’t think anyone here claimed that Mizrahim are flaming leftists. There are some, but they are a (significant) minority. As for hating their features, she’s talking about internalizing the oppression meted out to them every time they watched a TV show w/o any that looked like them or went to work w/o seeing a boss that looked like them, or…I think you get my drift. To embrace their own features, culture and values would have had to be difficult considering the prevailing consensus for so many decades. And I maintain that there is much work still to be done on this just as in America.
Again with the food and the music?! Is that what you think constitutes the core of Jewish Arab culture? If you just claim the food as your own (even though you mispronounce the name of it) and listen to Arabic music, then everything is headed on the right track and you will soon be one people. My god!
“Food culture”?!!!! You have got to be kidding. Now I understand on what level you are thinking in terms of this subject. You think that calling it fullawful or huhmuss and trying to claim it as Israeli cuisine is significant? You think incorporating elements of Arabic music erases anti-Arab (including Jewish-Arab) discrimination or makes Israel culturally Middle Eastern (as if Arabic rhythms and sensibilities haven’t been part of western pop music for decades – ever listen to Queen’s Bohemian rhapsody)? You sound like the guy who says “oh, yeah, I really understand and dig Jewish culture. I like klezmer, and my Jewish friends served me matzo ball soup a few times, I know what a dredl is, and anyway, I think Israel is really cool”. Superficial is putting it mildly.
You have your opinion about Rachel Shabi and I have mine (and for the record, I have never read anything of hers in CiF), just as I have my opinion about the views of my Arab Jewish present and former colleagues, companions, and friends (including my fellow elite club members), and the Arab Jewish writers and thinkers with whom I am acquainted.
One of my goals is to introduce the local Arab community to its Jewish members, and to reach out to members of the Arab Jewish community . I know what is needed to make this happen in an effective way, and I have the connections to do so. For you to try to tell me how to bring something new to my community is pretty arrogant, no?
Shireen – look at Israel in the 1960s and 1970s. And look at Israe today. You may look at food/music/culture as something unimportant, but I don’t because I’m very well aware of how it was nothing part of Israeli culture in those decades. Is that ‘all’ I hope for? No, but if you want to talk about the rise of Shas (whom I have many issues with – but that’s a different story) or stories like David Levy or Mofaz or Halutz or other Mizrachi Jews (be it professors, or business men) who’ve made their ways up to the upper echelons of Israeli society, we can. ‘Change’ (I hope I can use that without copyright infringement (; ) is not something that happens in 40-50 years in general. Look at the African Americans in the US, or the Pakistani (or for a more ‘modern’ take, I guess the Polish minorities?) in England. Much wrong was done and to correct it will take a while BUT that doesn’t mean you need to ridicule the many positive strides that have been made as the ‘Arab Jew’ has become more and more integrated into his ‘new’ society.
“For you to try to tell me how to bring something new to my community is pretty arrogant, no?”
I don’t think it’s arrogant. Shabi suits your political leaning. If she didn’t, you wouldn’t bring her. If you were to bring someone else to offer balance (even if we have ‘different’ political views – it doesn’t there cannot be respect or connections made) to her view, then I’d have no issue. It would be like someone bringing in the Palestinian JPost writer (the name escapes me now, Khaled something) to a conference and claiming he’s a way of ‘reaching out to Palestinians,’ etc.
If slapping an Israeli label on huhmuss (sic) and fullawful (sic) is the best you can do, then you haven’t come as far as you think you have.
Oh, and folks in the US, please do not buy Sabra brand fullawfull. It’s one of the products we should be boycotting, and frankly it’s mediocre at best anyway. Find an Arab-owned place and buy their felafel. Even the less good stuff with be better.
Oh, yes, it is arrogant. And by the way, so is your assumption that this is about political leanings on my part. You don’t have the slightest clue what it takes to successfully introduce the idea to my community of joining hands with Arab Jews, or why. You have no clue about the dynamics of this community, and yet you have the arrogance to try to tell me how to manage something like this based on your ideology, and your preference. I’ll tell you what, Avram. I won’t tell you how to manage things in your community if you will agree not to tell me how to manage things in mine. Deal?
There are many Sephardi Jews here in Seattle. They tend to be pretty conservative. But I would love to do a similar program here in Seattle if you ever decide you’d like to try to do something up here. It could be done at the Univ. of Wash. which has both a Jewish studies program & ME Ctr. that might co sponsor.
I had actually thought about talking with you about this. I will e-mail you.
If they’re like Azoze, they’re more Spangoli/Sefardi than Mizrachi.
How do you determine who represents the majority among Arab Jews? Do you vote on it? Conduct an opinion poll?
I don’t know much about Rachel Shabi, but I do know she’s a regular contributor to CiF, where I used to publish, & that makes her a serious figure in her field as far as I’m concerned.
“How do you determine who represents the majority among Arab Jews? Do you vote on it? Conduct an opinion poll?”
My question exactly. How does he know that the Jews he says he talks to represent the majority, and not the Jews I have counted among my colleagues, companions, and friends, and the writers I read, and the experts whose opinions I respect, not to mention those like my Israeli-born Iraqi-Jewish friends who are not on either one side or the other? For me they are all part of a spectrum of feelings, views, and opinions.
And then there are the facts of what happened and the context in which it happened.
You’re deliberately ignoring what I’m saying – and I don’t know how far we’ve come, it’s all relative. I saw bad racism (& anti-semitism) in New York while in High School & Uni – and people tell me the US has come far too.
I’ve never had ‘Sabra brand’ falafel but when I’m back there, I’ll make sure to buy it. I’m glad you’re all for boycotting – good way of building connections.
I am not ignoring what you are saying at all. I am just putting some of it into its proper perspective.
Feel free to buy whatever you like. If you like mediocre huhmuss you will like this brand. I prefer the one I buy at the local farmers market that is made by a Tunisian guy, but then I am used to the real thing.
Oh, and I am not in the least bit interested in building connections with Israel, so I am perfectly comfortable boycotting Israeli products as I have for decades. I am especially comfortable boycotting products that illegally exploit the occupied territories outside of the legitimate boundaries of Israel, such as the OPT and the Golan heights, and I proselytize heavily on that issue with anyone who will stand still long enough to hear me.
” I won’t tell you how to manage things in your community if you will agree not to tell me how to manage things in mine. Deal?”
Ok –
“If you like mediocre huhmuss you will like this brand”
If it’s as average as their humus, I’ll probably agree. But I’ll give ‘em a go … I prefer ‘freshly’ made Humus, so I tend to make my own but I haven’t come close to perfecting it.
“the Golan heights”
You don’t buy Druze apples? They’re the bestest Israel, I mean Syria, has to offer!
“I have for decades”
Yikes, I had you down for a 30 year old … I guess I’m off.
“And I maintain that there is much work still to be done on this just as in America.”
I agree whole heartedly … I think unfortunately it’s a problem that plagues many countries …