I like to be as transparent as I can in writing and running this site, which sometimes involves revealing things other bloggers in my position might not. So this post is in that vein. In some ways, this blog relies on the “kindness of strangers.” I don’t personally know some of the people who pass on tips and scoops to me. I have to rely on their past reputation if they’ve worked with me before; or the credibility of the information they’re offering if they haven’t.
For the past several months, a reader/commenter calling himself Dedi Rozenthal has posted comments regularly. He’s riled me and other commenters up quite a bit with his right-wing comments. But there was nothing remotely close to causing me to ban him.
However, a few weeks ago he began offering information about intelligence-related stories, which is a subject I’m very interested in. I did some research and discovered that if this commenter is indeed Rozenthal, then he’s a retired colonel in the Israeli air force. Frankly, I’ve never known of any colonel in the IDF offering intelligence information to a lefty blogger. But at the start, the information, which related to corruption involving Gabi Ashkenazi, seemed quite plausible. Since it didn’t reflect well on the IDF, I figured anyone offering the information to me within the IDF would have no reason to do so if it was false.
But then Dedi brought me a story claiming five Israeli Palestinians had been secretly detained and one of them, a minor, had died. I reported this story too in the spirit of pikuach nefesh, because I thought lives might be in danger. Afterward, it turned out that key details of the story couldn’t be authenticated.
Around that time, he brought me an even more ‘amazing’ story which claimed to expose the identity of the head of the Israeli intelligence unit which created Stuxnet. There was a side story about the allegedly stunning 25 year-old woman, Noia Dar Artzi, who commanded the unit engaging in multiple affairs with subordinates, and the son of a friend who was drummed out of the unit for filing a sexual harassment complaint. He worked up a whole life history for Dar Artzi that sounded impressive. Though the idea of a woman of 25 commanding one of the IDF’s premier cyber-warfare units gave me pause.
Given the problems I discovered with the earlier story, I held off on publishing the Stuxnet story. It just seemed too wild to believe given that his earlier information hadn’t panned out. But I had to hand it to Dedi. He knew how to spin a yarn. And like all lovers of literature, I like a good story.
Then Dedi claimed he was coming to California and would bring with him a package containing incriminating e mails Ameer Makhoul had sent which proved he was a Hezbollah agent. My Israeli friend even wrote me that he’d shipped off the package to me. But I never received it and I told him so.
Then came the clincher. Dedi started warning me about people hacking our e mails and wanted me to get a new e-mail address to write to him. When I refused, he told me that when he’d returned to Israel someone (I think he was implying it was the American authorities or possibly Israeli) gave him the package back and told him never to do it again.
It was at that moment that Dedi lost all usefulness to whoever put him up to this charade (if anyone did). Now, it’s possible that Dedi, or whoever he is, did this of his own initiative. Or it’s possible he has an intelligence connection of some sort. At any rate, his goal was clearly to discredit me and my work. So the reason I write all this is to let you know that there may be times you get a story wrong or are fooled. And if you do, it’s because you tried your hardest to vet it given the inherent limitations of writing a blog in the U.S. about Israeli intelligence matters. And something got by you.
Dedi was pretty good, I’ve got to hand it to him. Far more credible than other jokesters who in the past came to me claiming to know the date of the coming Israeli attack on Iran. Dedi worked into his narrative death under torture, illicit sex, computer hacking and other skullduggery. It was perfect for the age. But ultimately he couldn’t carry it off. Alas, poor Dedi, we thought we knew him well.
UPDATE: There is evidence that the person/s behind this hoax is/are active in the threads of at least one other progressive blog, so I thought it worthwhile to expose the IP addresses, e mail addresses and other information about those who’ve proven to be frauds in connnection with this and earlier incidents at my blog.
‘IlanP’ used the e mail address dedirozenthal@gmail.com and IP 188.40.33.213
‘Arijay’ used the e mail address arijay82@gmail.com and IP 38.108.124.153
“Tired of Shenanigans” using this e mail address lompicotos@yahoo.com and the following IPs:
95.154.230.252
66.28.139.242
74.55.82.154
This IP has also been used by the merry little band of hoaxsters:
193.202.110.204
He/they clearly have access to an an array of e mail addresses and IPs, so the above list is by no means exhaustive. But if you have any commenters using these IPs be forewarned.
I also wanted to let my readers know that I’ve had a Google Adsense ad tower in this blog’s sidebar (it’s not the ad tower at the top of my sidebar, which is a separate entity) since it began in 2003. No more. Some malicious hasbarist has click bombed my ads and Adsense has punished me with banishment. This will no doubt give the Rotterites or other juvenile delinquents who would engage in such fraud great pleasure. Until they realize that the small amount of income I was earning from Google Adsense will be more than offset by my readers replacing it with direct donations. So please, show the bastards that they don’t own the web and don’t get to damage my reputation without paying a price. I’d love to collect from you ten times what I’m losing from Adsense ad revenue. To participate, go to the Paypal button and give as generously as you can.
If you’re a potential advertiser, you can still advertise here through the Blodads/Blogging Liberally ad network.
Richard, thanks for your honest reporting of these attempts to mislead you and discredit your blog. This actually proves that what you’re doing is basically right. They cannot fight you by the open civilized means of debate, argumentation and telling the truth. So they resort to the covert methods of disinformation and manipulation.
I wonder if it is this kind of methods that Avi Benayahu is going to teach his media warrior recruits.
Maybe its time to realise you cant really be a speciliast on anything thats going on anywhere in the arab-muslim world and israel?
Maybe its time to realsie that just like you cant always trust some “Dedi” to give u info about israels secrets without fooling you, you also cant count on10-15 blogs u read and 10 peoples who response here to provide you with sufficient knowledge on the arab-israeli conflict and the arab world?
Mabye its time to realise you cant take for granted everything that someone like Shirin says, only because you like her opinion, and that her opinion alone is NOT enough to undersrtand whats really going on in Egypt or Lybia?
Maybe its also time to realse you cant pretend to be a specialist in EVERY possible field related to the conflict (such as the econonimcal situation here and the abillity of israel to absorb palestinian refugees)?
You’re just another blogger whos used by others to publish their agenda. This time it was this Dedi, at others time its done by others (like with every case u pulish something thats not published in israel – where do u get the info if not from people who’re simply using you?).
Your intentions might be good, but at the end you’re just another mostly clueless person on the web, and ur OPINIONS based on your hubris and ur few friends cannot replace real knowledge.
After reading this comment I knew precisely how to characterize you: you’re the sitra achra, the “other side” in Kabbala/Zohar, or the dark side. You are the dark, cynical voice. The mean tendency to distrust all & everyone. The voice that tells you not to believe anything other than the worst. The voice that tells you you’re worth nothing & never will amount to anything. We all know this voice because many of us have heard it inside ourselves or fr. family or others.
But we won’t allow voices like yours to win this battle. It is YOU who is nothing & worth nothing. Yr cynicism & nihilism won’t work.
I’ve written this blog since 2003 & have nearly 1 million unique visits to it in the past yr alone. Readers don’t come here because they think I don’t know what I’m talking about. They come here because, unlike you, they recognize a voice that has something imporant to say. You may disagree. You’re entitled. But stop wasting our time with your nasty, dismissive approach. No one here credits yr perspective because it simply doesn’t resonate. It’s empty of hope or constructive thought. Go somewhere where you’ll find similar people who will carp, whine & krechts along w. you. This isn’t the place, bud.
What nobless oblige, what obnoxiousness. I read more than 10-15 blogs. I read magazines. I read newspapers, many of them. I read essays. Far more widely than you I’d guess. And you think 10 people publish comments here? There are 35,000 over the past 7 yrs. Thousands of individual commenters. Hundreds publishing over any shorter period of time.
This is simply stupid. I don’t reply to Shirin’s comments very often. So you don’t even know most of the time when I agree w. her views since I often think her statements are self-evident & don’t require any affirmation fr. me. I do sometimes disagree w. her & she’s more than comfortable disagreeing with me. This isn’t an Amen Corner. People disagree w. ea. other. And that’s OK. But they don’t do what you’ve done which is to smear the entire enterprise.
I never claimed to be a specialist in every aspect of the conflict. But when I want to make a statement about some aspect of it I make sure I have knowledge to back up my views. If you have facts that contradict that bring them. If not, stop kvetching.
No, you’re just another dead-endnik leading yrself & yr fellow Israelis down the road to oblivion. And I & many others simply won’t let you go there. I’ll be damned if I’m going to let you lead Israel to self-destruction because of yr own pessimistic, nihilistic views. My record speaks for itself. When I get it wrong I say so & explain why. But I mostly get it right. And that you’ll never credit. BTW, prove my rpt about the Gaza engineer wrong why don’t you.
I’m not used by anyone. Anyone who uses me will get caught & exposed eventually. Those who provide accurate information to me don’t “use” me. We’re collaborators on behalf of a democratic Israel. I know you detest that notion. And that gives me pleasure & pride. Because it’s a battle to the death bet. yr nihilism & my hope. Hope trumps nihilism almost every time.
My sources have the same interests as I do, to promote a strong, democratic, egalitarian, just Israel. So if that’s being used, hallelujah I’m guilty! I’m willingly guilty of promoting justice & democracy & respect for all Israeli religious traditions. Guilty as charged, sir.
“KNowledge” like yours???! Gimme a break. I see no knowledge in yr opinions. I see prejudice, darkness, fear, ignorance. That’s what I see.
No, Richard. Sorry. They come here for two reasons: 1 – when they want to read about Anat Kamm kind of stories and its notyet published here – they need someone like you (refer to what i said about u being used).
2- They enjoy reading someone who constantly trashes Israel and talks about its evil deeds (and bans anyone who claims the owner of the blog and his friends are not exactly israels best friends)
This why u were so happy and eager to post deddys story about the dead minor palestinian. You know this is what they want to read (and u can judge by number of responses to each thread – somehow the story about the bar ilan lecturer got 5 responses only).
The saying “israel absorbed 1 million russians. it can absord palestinians” is NOT based on anything except for ur personal view. As ive already claimed, you probably dont even know a single russian in israel, or worse – cant even explain what “absorb” means. You, just like people like Karl Marx, are very eager to clal for a change, but you dont have a SLIGHTEST idea if this change is possible or what it requirers. Same goes about ur believe in the arab revolutions btw. How many egyptians or lybians do u know personally? and im not talkinog about people who write in magazines or online blogs. Im talking about simple people, who dont even speak english. Somehow, btw, im convinced the number i’d get here is the same number id get if i asked how many such palestinians you know. And yet, you are convinced you know what they want (you’re also convinced they all are very different from people in iran, because there u explicitly provided a different point of view, in ur article in the guardian).
So yes, u didnt claim to be a specialist in everything, you just act like you’re one, which is as bad as.
Is that so? a few years ur blog screamed against hamas. Suddenly your possition has changed. You’re mostly busy with either reporting things people here want you to report (refer to what ive said) or to guessing what will be at the end. Even with this, u dont have one solid agenda, but keep on changing it. Not that u’re required to believe in one thing, but at least dont act like you’re some genious and talk down to anyone who disagrees. And please, spare the bullshit about how theres a “place to disagree” here. People with merezt – righter opinions usually dont hold here more than a month, as eventually u find an excuse to ban them, or they just leave getting tired of ur constant personal attacks and claims “they dont know what they’re talking about” (only you do, mr specialist ).
Kind sir, i didnt talk about MY knowledge. Unlike u i know my limits, and wont express an opinion full of self confidence about the situtation in lybia, because i simply dont know enough. However this is not the case with u. You’re so self convinced u know everything and get everything right we will never get to see u writing to someone a simple answer like “i need to check”, “im not surE”. Not with you, sir. Claiming USA is hated in the arab world because shirin thinks so, for example, is not “knowledge”, its shirins opinion, but you dont even realise this, as with many other cases.
Unlike u (a person who never shoot a gun or did any military service i imagine) i wont spend a week on claiming i know what happened on the navi marmara, and wont write an utter bullshit, but you did that, with the help of brilliant readers like Mary, about how “proffesional soilders are supposed to behave when in danger”. Why not, though? as ive already said, if theres one thing ur readers want to read its a story about blood thristy idf, and ur more than happy to provide it when u can.
I want to explain to you why I have’t posted yr comments for a few days. First, they are long-winded & tedious (keep your comments short and succinct so I don’t have to spend hours responding to them). Second, they repeat a number of similar arguments used by either a lone hoaxster or group of ’em who’ve attempted to foist fake stories on me. I want you & anyone who may have any connection to them to know that I’ll be developing a zero tolerance policy for anyone who’s arguments echo themes developed by fraudsters like IlanP.
You must first read & absorb the comment rules. Then, if I tell you subjects are off limits because they violate the rules, you’ll respect that. If you don’t, I frankly don’t care what you say or think. Stop whining & either follow the rules, go somewhere else or prepare to lose yr privileges. What I do here is too important to massage yr ego and make nice to you.
This is precisely the kind of stupid comment that caused you to be moderated, & will if you continue in this vein, cause you to lose yr privileges. There are many commenters here who are Israeli & disagree with me. So the next time you make a false claim like the one above, you’re gone.
Stus, plain & simple. I told you why I posted that story because I believed people’s lives were in danger. I wasn’t “happy” to post it. I’m not “happy” that Israel is slowly destroying itself. And I don’t write this blog for my readers. If I wrote it solely for them I would never write about things that do interest me but which would never interest my average reader (like architectural preservation, music, poetry, and food). I write it to express my own ideas. So again, if you want to lie about my motivations esp. when I’ve explicitly explained them here, that’s your perogative. But it will cause you to be banned.
You don’t know anything about my comment threads. 5 responses is actually a pretty good number of responses for this blog. Some posts get no responses. A few get 100 or more. But most avg. in the 5-8 range.
No, Israel absorbed 1-million Russians. That’s a fact no my personal view. As to my claim it can absorb returning Palestinians, this too is a fact. Israel absorbed thousands of olim every year. Not just Russians. It can absorb returning Palestinian refugees as well.
Again, you’re ignorant & wrong. You don’t know who I know in Israel.
You think I don’t know olim? I don’t know their experience? You’re a jackass if you do.
Another historic first, I’ve been called a Nazi & lots of other lies. But never Karl Marx. Aren’t you recycling awfully old bogeymen? The Red menace has been dead lo these many yrs since 1989, don’t ya know? BTW, let’s update those who I join in calling for change: Ezra Nawi, Sara Benninga, Wael Ghonim, the Libyan opposition, Ameer Makhoul, Azmi Bishara, Jonathan Pollak.
If you’d bother to read my blog you’d know that I just spoke publicly here in Seattle on a panel with two Egyptian-Americans about the Tahrir Revolution. So I’d say I know at least two more Egyptians than you do.
I have no idea what this means & I don’t think Iranians are fundamentally diff. from Egyptians or Libyans.
More nonsense. My blog never “screamed against Hamas.” It was critical of Hamas then & now. I haven’t changed my position about Hamas one iota. I don’t like their political agenda, but they represent a strong, legitimate portion of Palestinians. I don’t like Avigdor Lieberman’s politics either. But I’d be a fool to say he didn’t deserve to be part of Israel’s political system.
That’s rich. Does somehow who thinks he’s a genius ever admit he’s wrong? I do when I am.
If you spoke factually, weighed yr words & were precise about yr claims I would disagree but not talk down to you. But you speak in hyperbole, don’t bother supporting any claim you make with quotes or facts. If you don’t treat me w. respect & show disdain that’s what you’ll get in return.
Bar Kochba has been commenting here for yrs. There are others with right wing views who have been commenting much longer than the avg of one month you claim. Sorry to spoil yr generalizations. They don’t hold water. But let me tell you something–my job isn’t to make the comment threads comfy for right-wingers. My job isn’t to ensure the welcome mat is thrown out for ’em. My job is to express my views the best way I can. If people want to come and comment whether right or left, they’re welcome.
And btw, I ban lefties as well as righties here. But you seem to ignore that fact.
Now that’s hilarious because when I wrote about Abu Seesi’s kidnapping I specifically said I didn’t know what he was charged with. In other words, I said precisely what you claim I never say. This is getting very annoying & tiring.
I don’t believe I ever used those words. The U.S. is hated by some in the Arab world. Most Arabs deeply suspect us & our motives & for good reason. We haven’t exactly acquitted ourselves well over the past few decades. I don’t need Shirin to tell me this. Public opinion polls, many of them, tell us that.
Another comment rule violation. If you can’t control yr insults and language I have one way to do it. So I put you on formal warning: the next violation I read by you & you’re history.
and one last thing, since u dont bother posting my response anyway:
For christs sake, stop calling urself “Israel’s supporter” and moderating people like me just because i claim you/your readers are far from being such.
Israel is not an abstract term which can be interpreted by anyone in anyway he wishes.
Israel is a state which wad created by the U.N to serve as homeland for jews. It wasnt created to be a bi-national state or state of all of its citizens. A Jewish state, just like Palestine was supposed to be for Palestinians. Once u promote any agenda to turn it into anything else, you simply object the very simple idea behind israel. If israel is bi-national/n-national/whatever you call it -who the hell needs it then?
USA or France or Germany or few dozens of other states can be called “a jewish homeland ” as well with such israel – as Jews are equall citizens there.
By your defenition there isnt even such a thing as someone who DOESNT support israel. Who’d fall into this category? If u suggest Hassan Nasrallah he should keep the name Israel but can change it into khaliffat – do u think hell refuse just because of the name? So wheres the difference between u both? That ur not muslim and he is? That ur also nice enough to allow jews to stay here with the arabs?
So yeah, its very witty to add this “rule” to your blog, as it allows u to ban automaticly about 99% of people who object you after their very first post, but it doesnt make u nor almost anyone else here a supporter of Israel.
It was not. It was a state created by the UN. The UN recognized there were Jews & non-Jews living in this state. It never said Israel should be a state only for its Jewish inhabitants. That’s YOUR classical ZIonist gloss.
No, I don’t object to the idea behind Israel. I object to your lying about what my views about Israel are. Israel can still be a homeland for its Jewish citizens & its non-Jewish ones even if Jews no longer have superior rights & privileges in Israel. So stop carping, whining & lying about what I believe & what will happen if Israel transforms itself.
Again, you misquote me. I didnt say it should be a state for jews only. Im not asking the arabs to leave. IT doesnt mean however we should turn it into ANOTHER multinatinal state where jews are but another group. Israel was created for a good reason, and you know it just like i know it. Whoever voted for the U.N resolution and agreed there should be a Jewish State, realised the emancipation of jews in europe has +- failed, with the holocaust being the worse point of that. Jews needed their own state not only because some of them developed racial/national concepts close to those of germans, but also because they were slaughtered too often in other places. By suggesting to take the power from jews here, and to turn israel into a state of all of its citizen u again implictly raise the risk of jew-slaughtering coming back to life (and i dont know or wanna know how bad the risk is). If this becomes possible -theres simply no point in israel a state , as it would be safer for us to move to usa or canada, and this is why i think you’re anti israeli, even if u think/believe otherwise.
That’s NOT what Israel would be in my vision. It would be a state for all its citizens, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Bedouin, Druze, etc. Jews, being a current majority would likely enjoy political control, but they would not hold a monopoly on anything including political power. Israel would still be a Jewish homeland, & not just another multi-ethnic state.
No, again. No one ever voted for Israel’s existence because it would become a state in which Jews would dominate every other ethnic group. NO one ever voted for an Israel that would treat its ethnic minority like 3rd class citizens. No one ever voted for an Israel that would defile democratic values to preserve Jewish dominance. No one did. Not a single vote.
That’s wrong too. The Holocaust didn’t prove the Emancipation was wrong. It proved that there was a genocidal current in German politics that led to Nazism. That has little or nothing to do with the condition of Jews throughout Europe & certainly nothing to do w. the condition of Jews in the U.S., who have thrived quite nicely thank you.
I find this utterly stupid & nonsensical. There is a difference between saying that Jews will no longer be supreme & dominate non-Jewish citizens & inviting Jew-slaughtering to return. How would treating all Israeli citizens equally as we do here in the U.S. cause Jew slaughter? Has giving African Americans full equality led to the wholesale murder of whites? Now, I’m beginning to find yr view histrionic & simply ridiculous.
Israeli Jews in their hundreds of thousands are already doing just that. And they’re not even waiting for the “jew slaughter” to begin. They’re moving here because they’re sick of the endless wars, endless hatred, endless military service, endless violence.
@ Y)
“Real knowledge”
Could you please give us a list of books containing “real knowledge” according to your criteria. I might even read some of them. In English, please as I don’t read Hebrew, sorry.
“Tell me who you read, and I tell you who you are”.
Concerning your ‘the ability of Israel tp absorb Palestinian refugess’, we ALL know this has nothing to do with ability. You could absorb more than 1 million Russians (many of them with no link to the Jewish people), you exfiltrated thousands of Falashas on a “Flying Carpet”, you made “the desert bloom”, you have “the most Nobel Prize-winners in the world”, “invented hi-tech” and “the hot water” and you can’t integrate people on THEIR OWN land ?? 🙂
Deir Yassin
You, like ur friend richard, totally missed the point of what i said. I, unlike richard, dont pretend to be a specialist on everything. I dont write a pretendous blog, and claim theres a place for variety of opinions there, and then ban / moderate anyone who disagrees with some pathetic excuse of “rules violation”. I dont claim to have a solution for the conflict, and I dont suggest idiotic ideas like civil uprising, just to see what will happen (while sitting somewhere across the sea, knowing perfectly i wont pay the price of a failure of my ideas). I dont claim to be a specialist on israel, and then divide its citizens into “good people” and “bibi supporters” (you’d expect from such a specialist to realise there are more than two opionions in israel, yet he compared me to bibi in some other thread, and it another claimed i hated turkey, though i never mentiond turkey at any post).
I dont think theres a final list of books containing “real knowledge”, sorry. However ur friend Richard does, because otherwise its abit hard to explain his self confidence in his answers regarding any question raised on the conflict. Hubris, like ive already said.
One of those questions is actually what u and i said – The ability of Israel to do or not do things – You have no ideaabout the status of the etiopians or russians here, u have no idea how many of them managed to absorb, where do they work, how do they live, etc but u r most certain we “could absorb” them.
I cant offer u “real knowledge” books, but i can offer you to look up abit, and to read about the situation of Ethiopians and Russians in Israel. Many of them live in simple ghettos, just like immigrants in any other country. Why do u think the situation of the arabs would have been better if they “came back” to israel? Richard doesnt have an answer for that (and yet, hes more than ready to try out and to see what will happen). Do you have an answer? Or u simply dont care because its all about “justice”?
So yes, when i say Richard is another blogger who knows nothing about anything, i mean exactly questinos like that, which cant be answered with a “u managed with russians u will manage with arabs” answer.
Of course, we theoretically CNA let even 10,000,000 arabs to come to israel, but what would be the outcome?
As ive already asked, where would they work? at our hightech industry you mention? Do they all come with at least B.Sc in applied math or computer science?
Yes it WAS their land, so what? My grandma is a holocaust surviver from the former USSR. She lost her original home back in 1940 and her entire family was slaughtered. Judging by ur logic im now supposed to ask to go back to her city of origin, and the locals there must accept me, even if i dont speak their language, or cant contribute them anytthing, because this is “just”.
The main difference between my grandma and those palestinians is that my grandma wasnt put in a camp for 3 generations, like it happened with the palestinians in their brothers countries (Syria, Lebanon, etc), but thats not really my or any others israeli fault.
Der Yassin, How many nicks can you list here, of people who are not as left winged as richard by israeli standarts, and who managed to survive here more than 2-3 weeks, without getting moderated, or eventually leaving?
Why is that? Why Richard is trying so hard to read between the lines, and looks for the first possible opportunity to ban/moderate? Because without that he’d actually have to answer people, but he cant as he rarely has the answers, except for repeating again and again the same thing how much “peace is needed” (like we dont know this without him).
And im not sure whats worse – to be a pesimist like myself, or an optimist like Richard, who provides 3rd grade level answers and sollutions, and believes they’ll lead to anything good.
Im also sure this will never get posted, as it happens with 99% of my posts in the great democracy a-la mister Silverstein.
This is the 4th or 5th time you’re whining about my editorial judgements. That’s off limits. I don’t care what you think about my decisions. Stop carping about them & talk about something of substance.
The reason YOU don’t suggest a civil uprising to the Palestinians is not because you care a whit about them, but because you don’t want to lose yr privileges as a thief of Palestinian land & occupier. You don’t want to share Israel’s wealth equally with its non Jewish citizens. Palestinians don’t complain about my advocacy of a civil uprising even though they’d bear the brunt of it. The only ones who accuse me of hypocrisy are Israelis like you–who are the real hypocrites because as I wrote you care less about the Palestinians than I do.
Not their fault I’m afraid, but rather Israel’s. But you again oversimplify since many Russians have integrated into Israel & succeeded. Ethiopians will too though their journey will be harder because they’ll face more discrimination. You also ignore the fact that ALL immigrant groups within Israel have faced huge hurdles & prejudices. Yet many have succeeded just as Arab refugees returnees would.
Of course I do. Other countries will shower billions on Israel to resettle returning refugees because it will resolve the overall conflict. There will be plenty of money to do this. What’s lacking is Israeli will which is abundantly evident fr. yr own prejudices.
You mean I disagree with you, hence I “know nothing about anything??”
Of course it’s Israel’s fault Palestinian refugees have been in camps for generations. Who put them there? Who expelled them from Israel? You did. As for the diff. bet. you & those refugees: you don’t want to return to Russia, & the Palestinians refugees DO want to return to Israel.
You’re a liar. I publish almost all yr posts.
Many? i counted 5 maximum. You claim nearly 1,000,000 people read this blog. Lets say i dont follow enough, lets say you have 1000 out of 1,000,000. Wow, thats alot.
I also dont need you to massage my ago. Just dont bother coming up with some “rules”, which only serve as an excuse to ban people. You’re not israel, you dont need to prove ur democracy.
No, its u who over simplifies time after time, by repeating same claim “it worked with russians, it will work with palestinians”. It worked PARTIALLY with russians, it worked even less with ethiopians (and its not only because of discrimnation) and it will work even less with palestinians. By comparing ALL the immigrant waves to israel you’re “forgetting” theres a little difference between someone who came from lets say USA, and who has at least a college-level education, and someone who came from refugees camps in Lebanon. Its not about invested money in israel. its about they literacy/iliteracy rate, its about which skills/education they come with, etc. This is another reason the russian immigration was more successfull than the ethiopian. not discrimnation only. When i say you dont know what absorb means and just provie too-simple sollutions for everything, this is EXACTLY what i mean.
BTW how can something that didnt happen be a fact?
Israel put palestinians in camps in jordan or syria or lebanon?
Come on, Richard… I agree its israels fault they got expelled, but those are their brothers who put them in camps. There are 0 refugee camps withint the 1967 borders. how many outside?
I dont want to go back to Russia (where i was born, btw) because i dont live in a camp. I dont live in a camp because USSR provided my grandma with a place to live after the world war hasd ended. Arabs didnt do that for Palestinians, and while israel maybe the first country to blame for palestinians suffering, its their brothers who put their best effort into keeping this situtation (ensuring the palestinians will not forget about palestine).
Of couse i dont want to share the wealth. We’re not wealthy because we stole anyones land, though, we’re wealthy because we’ve managed to create this high tech industry and nobel prise winning academy Der Yassin mocks.
If you’d bother to read my comment you’d see i talked about People who live in Egypt and DONT speak english/write blogs/ come to usa. But i guess u didnt read.
No, you just empty the term of its meaning. Im not lying, im asking. if you’re not anti israeli – then who is?
Does such thing even exist in ur reallity, or “anti-israeli” is a term invented by Avi Bnayahu and his friends at school of hasbara?
I can count 5-6 u didnt, out of 10-12. SO not 99%, but 50-60. Is that better?
Should i find the link? i dont mind really.. Will take me 5 minutes on google, but why when we both know it
Is that so? Should i provide another link to ur article in the guardian when u explained in a nice way why usa shouldnt interfere in Iran? If they shouldnt do it there – why hsould they in lybia?
and last thing
I didnt call u Karl marx, Richard, What i said was:
Like karl Marx you’re brilliant at painting utopia world, and explaining how great it will be when this utopia comes to life. Like him u have almost no practical knowledge to actually explain how to get to this utopia. And no, saying “Israel can absorb palestinians and its a fact” doesnt make it such.
IlanP, Shmuel, Bar Kochba, Y, Proud Israeli, Benyomin, Shai, Free Man, Rafi, Israman…& that’s just going back to comments from Feb. 22nd. That’s double the number you counted & I only went back 2 wks. If I went back farther there would be many more Israelis with whom I always or sometimes disagree.
No, again you’re not reading carefully. I said I’m on track to get close to 1-million visits to the site. That’s not the same. Most people can tell the diff. bet. those 2 statements. Why not you?
Another thing you don’t understand: for every person who comments here there are perhaps hundreds or even thousands who are readers, but don’t comment. That means there are tens of thousands of Israelis who read this blog but disagree with my views. My blog is ranked around 7,000 within Israel. Again, that means that a lot of Israelis read it. I guarantee you that even if many of those are Israeli leftists, there is a very significant percentage that is not.
I’ve been blogging since 2003 & those rules were developed constantly over that time to deal with all sorts of issues including commenters who hate Israel, hate Palestinians, commenters on the far left & far right. The rules exist for a reason & I don’t give a fig what you think about them. You follow them or you’re gone. And given the hoaxes Israeli rightists have attempted to perpetrate on this blog, I’m enforcing the rules even more strictly than normal.
I don’t know what that means. I worked as well with the Russians as it worked with any other immigrant group. Did it work with the Yemenites, Moroccans, Iraqis, Iranians? Yes & no. Just the same with all the others including Russians. Israel is a nation built upon immigration. Virtually its entire population or their parents or grandparents immigrated to Israel. It absorbed millions over decades & it will absorb millions more likely in coming decades.
Very few Israelis comparatively immigrated fr. the USA. Most came fr. similarly poor countries and with little but the clothes on their backs. A Yemenite or Moroccan or Iraqi came with little to Israel & made something of his or her life over decades. Same w. returning Palestinian refugees. Frankly, I don’t care what you think about Palestinian refugees. You’ll have to absorb them whether you want to or not. If you choose to accept them it will be infinitely better for you & Israel as a whole. IF you choose to treat them as lepers it will redound to your & Israel’s infamy. It will be yr choice as to how you approach them. But there will be NO choice as to whether some of them return.
Again, nonsense. Hundreds of thousands of olim came to Israel with nothing. They didn’t even read or write their native languages many of them, let alone Hebrew. But Israel’s educational system educated them & taught them the skills they needed. And many of them thrived. Some didn’t. But that’s what happens with immigrants everywhere.
Sure did. You can’t be a refugee unless you’ve been expelled from yr home. Israel expelled nearly 1-million in 1948. They went to refugee camps. No Nakba (caused by Israel), no refugee camps.
Why is that? Why instead of refugee camps within Israel are there hundreds of destroyed Arab villages? Why didn’t Israel allow refugees to return after 1948? And let me tell you something, this was not just a crime of 1948, it’s a crime with no statute of limitations. That’s why it’s your & Israel’s responsibility as a matter of justice (international justice if you don’t accept it as a matter of your internal sense of justice) that their loss be compensated.
The first and last. It’s not the obligation of any Arab country to take care of Israel’s problem. It’s Israel’s. As the Potter Barn rule never said: “You broke it, you buy it.” Israel broke it, Israel fixes it.
Thank you for admitting that you’re an Israeli racist. You don’t want to treat Israeli Palestinians as equal citizens as western democracies would treat their minority citizens. You don’t want to offer them equal opportunity, equal jobs, equal education, equal wages, equal municipal subsidies.
No, you asked how many Egyptians I knew & I told you about the ones with whom I shared a stage a few wks ago here in Seattle. And I told you that as many or few as I know, they are that many more than the number you know, which is about as close to 0 as you can get. Or do you actually know one?
“Anti-Israelis” are all the commenters I’ve banned for their violent, racist views about Jews & Israel. But you wouldn’t know about any of those would you?
YOu’ve published 63 comments in this blog by my count. Of that, I approved all but 6. That means I approved over 90% of your comments. Would you care to amend yr false claim? I said I approve “almost all” your comments, which turns out to be correct. If you bothered to follow the comment rules, stayed on topic, & shortened your comments so they weren’t interminably long your record would be even higher.
Of course, the US (& Israel) should not bomb Iran. That seems self-evident to all but the U.S. & Israeli hawks. Libya is slightly diff. Not sure we should participate directly in the battle against Qaddafi. But a no-fly zone & logistical support to rebels is something that would be reasonable.
Saying someone is “like” Karl Marx is very close to calling them Karl Marx. This is what’s so annoying about yr comments & why I don’t approve all of them. You quarrel about inaninities. I simply don’t have the patience for it.
I’m giving you a new rule. Keep your comments under 150 words each. Every single one. And that doesn’t mean breaking up a 1,000 word comment into 5 separate comments. I won’t ban you for breaking this limit. But if you drone on & on your comments may not be published.
It’s frustrating when hoaxers fabricate such stories (and morally wrong, as well – it shows a smirking disregard for human life) but as with the ambulance service, it’s better to be taken in by hoaxers from time to time than to miss genuine emergencies.
The sad thing about Dedi’s torture hoax is that the context made it credible: incommunicado detention and torture are rife in Israel and well-documented by independent organisations such as PCATI, so people familiar with the abuses going on in this region would never have doubted him automatically. This is the worst aspect of the hoax: that someone was prepared to callously cash in on the suffering of those people in order to take a cheap shot at a blogger whose work they don’t like.
The perpetrator has achieved two things: leading you on, and teaching to be ever more vigilant while being transparent with your readers.
Seems to me the second point out weighs the first. You’ve handled this very well.
Dear Y and dear Lubanovich:
I read Friedman’s suggestions for why the Egyptian uprising. Perhaps you did, too. In a well known newspaper. With a big budget and a full staff. The New York Times. Very knowledgeable about the Middle East. Supposedly. I laughed. The reasons he gave were so clueless they were funny. Did you know the Beijing Olympics spurred the revolution? Not Cast Lead or the siege of Gaza or the invasion of Lebanon.
Richard, for all his effort and bravery, can’t be right all of the time. But he isn’t living in the fantasy world of Tom Friedman and the New York Times. Do you live there, too?
Richard works from a place of compassion, with a desire for truth. Powerful combination. The NYT offers neither. I sometimes disagree with him. But I always read him with respect.
He’s one brave and intelligent man writing in extremely complex times.
Thank you.
Richard is one of the satellites of my moral GPS-system.
Although he’s extremely important with his opinion for me, one needs three or more satellites to get exact coordinates…
At least your bloke actually existed.
I and several other bloggers were plagued by one called “Eva”, whose message was that pretty well all the evils of the world were a conspiracy by Nato Intelligence. Her use of “organized” and “NATO Intelligence” in the same sentence raised some suspicions!
Having been told that on comments to someone else’s blog, Eva’s IP had changed four times in fifteen minutes, she apparently traversing the breadth of Germany in that time, it because fairly obvious that “she” was actually a team or people conferencing by phone or skype whilst writing her comments.
After I’d asked if she was the FSB, Eva vanished from the web without further trace. Until…
http://olivia2010kroth.wordpress.com/2011/02/
The image of Olivia being a cropped segment of the one that used to be on Eva’s blogs, a lot of the “art” also being recycled.
There’s also a German language blog getting “the message” across to ethnic German communities in Argentina etc.
The IPs seem to be in Venuzuela now, too.
What’s the Russian for “hasbarista”?
Of course it isnt, but they *could* have helped, and they have chosen not to, so after 3 or 4 generations of them choosing not to, i somehow feel less guilty for what happend to palestinians.
Care to explain the difference?
This is exactly why i think you dont have a solid agenda. You jsut separate the arab world into countries israel has a +- direct conflic with and others, just like u separate israelis into good people and people like me.
I dont believe theres such a thing “race”, but there ARE cultural gaps between arabs (yes, even jews from arab states) and people from west. As long as palestinians dont want to adapt a western culture – i dont want to share anything with them, just like i dont want to share with the haredim here.
I frankly don’t care whether you lighten the burden on yr conscience by blaming Arab nations for not cleaning up Israel’s mess. The fact is this is a mess yr country made & is responsible for.
At the end of ur comment you once again attest to yr odious anti-Arab racism. Ignorant, stupid & offensive. But thanks for exhibiting it for all my readers to see.
i can only ask u again to prove/ explain If im that stupid and ignorant how come theres such a huge difference in life standarts between east and west? how come no one immigrates form Israel or any European country to the arab world, and tens of thousands do the other way? Even with countries like turkey- u have thousands of them immigrating to Germany, and 0 of germans going to turkey. why is that? “Racism” is nice answer, as ive said so many times, but it doesnt really explain how come the western culture has managed to dominate the world in the last 500-600 years. When arabs/muslims will be ready to admit their culture has something to do with their poverty all around the world – ill be more than ready to embrace any of them.
This is such a vast generalization as to be almost meaningless. Where in the east? Afghanistan? Egypt? Yes. Qatar? Dubai? Turkey? Less so.
There are hundreds of thousands of such immigrants all over the Arab world. You clearly have not been in Turkey, Dubai, Oman, Qatar, etc. Get out & see the Arab world, why don’t you (get yourself a non-Israeli passport first though).
Again, there are MANY immigrants from western countries living in Turkey. In fact, one of them is an American friend and journalist, Laura Wells, who’s married to a Turkish man. She’s but the tip of the iceberg I assure you.
Yes, the same “western culture” which has given us the Inquisition, the Holocaust, Serbian genocide, etc. I’m not so such such culture has been all that beneficial to the world. The Arab world has made incredible contributions to world civilization & has nothing to apologize for on that front.
When you admit that your country has produced some of the most heinous Arab mass murderers known to the Middle East (& yes, I know the Arab world has its own share of Arab mass murderers too), then the Arabs may be more ready to embrace you.
For example there had been a migration of whole villages of people from southern Germany to Palestine long, long before the idea of the state of Israel had been invented. Those Germans were protestants who migrated by religious reasons.
Germans and Austrians migrated to southeast and eastern Europe by economic and religious reasons. Germans also migrated to Turkey to establish small industries and build the Bagdad-Railway trail. The whitnessed the Armenian genocide and wrote about it. And all the millions of Germans that migrated to the USA by economic reasons (youth bulb, poverty) would have been forced to search their fortune in the southeast european direction if the possibility to migrate to the US would not have existed. There was always migration – to and from Europe – up to a certain degree, by mainly economic reasons.
Honestly it has nothing to do with racism. It has to do with the failure of multiculturalism. You can see how that’s worked out in Europe. It would be much better if (in the case of Germany) Arabs were more willing to adapt to German culture and customs. They have chosen to segregate themselves and if you’ve been following at all you’d see what Merkel thinks about the situation now.
In Israel, some Russian immigrants do the same – they live in “autonomous” communities where all the stores are owned by Russians, the streets are laden with Russian signs, and the people who live there don’t at all or hardly speak Hebrew.
Yes, I have a problem with that, and not because I’m racist. If I were racist I would have a problem with all Russians. Now, if we expect for Palestinians to eventually return to Palestine/Israel, after decades of having considered us their worst enemies, there is no reason to believe they would even attempt to integrate within Israeli society. Am I also “racist” toward Haredim with whom I have serious problems? How about settlers?
Talking about “the failure of multiculturalism”, why isn’t it enough to respect the rights of other citizens, to obey the reasonable laws of the country, and to be able to protest and challenge the unreasonable ones? Why should an immigrant or a member of a minority be required to adapt to the majority, while the majority are not required to question just a bit their prejudices about the newcomers? It’s a mutual problem: it’s the failure of both sides to embrace each other as equals.
You have problems with those Russians and Palestinians? How much do you know about them? Why not reach out to them, make friends with them, see how it feels to be in their situation? They might just turn out to be all right, human beings like yourself, with perfectly human problems, hopes, dreams and aspirations.
Maybe those segregated Russians (what a bitter irony to be derogatively called Jews in the USSR and Russians in Israel) just simply find comfort in the company of each other, clinging to some form of common identity in the face of enormous upheavals they’ve lived through, like the fall of the Soviet Union (and their whole way of life) and immigration to a promised land, which for many turned out to be hard, foreign and often hostile? Has it ever occurred to you how difficult it may be for many, especially after a certain age, to adapt to such a different country, climate, way of life, and to learn such a completely foreign language?
Do you think I need to be disillusioned and realize that they aren’t some sort of aliens that are completely different from me? The onus is on the immigrant to reach out to the majority. I would have loved to be able to share my love with them but I have no natural access to them -because- the live in segregation. What would you have me do? Drive to a random neighborhood of segregated immigrants and say “Hi guys! Let’s be friends!”?
You make reference to older immigrants who have a hard time to adapt. Of course they do. I’m talking about 2nd and 3rd generations of immigrants who choose to remain segregated. It’s a fact that most have successfully integrated, but some choose not to. There are MANY examples of this throughout Europe, and in some areas in the US. Multiculturalism eventually rips out the native culture of the country (determined by the majority), which is fine if your goal is to abandon the “ruling” culture for the sake of all others. Mine isn’t. I want to have a melting pot where everyone can still practice their cultural standards in ways that don’t ignore or disrespect the local culture. I think it’s great when immigrants bring their cuisine & entertainment (music, etc.) when they arrive but I like it less so when gays can’t walk in Mea Shearim without fearing for their safety while the rest of Israel finds them entirely acceptable.
I’m sorry that you find the use of the word Russians to be derogative. That’s what they happen to be, and please let’s not venture into absurd political correctness area.
This has strayed wayyyy off topic. I think we should be done.
No, not at all. Israel & the U.S. are a nation of immigrants. Immigrants are what made this country great. They enrich our country. We owe immigrants a debt of gratitude for what they bring to us. They may owe us things as well. But you are completely obtuse about the obligation you have to them–and you do have one. Unless you want to turn into Japan & have 75% of your population being aged & infirm & totally homogenous & ethincally pure. You want a monoculture & you ain’t gonna get it.
This is so ignorant I don’t know where to begin. YOu sound like a snot-nose know-it-all kid. Are you 16 or a real adult with some knowledge of the world? Multiculturalism ENRICHES a culture, it doesn’t destroy it. I simply no longer have any patience for this nonsense. This is racist & stupid & if you want to go on you’ll have to do it elsewhere. Come back when you’ve actually studied some sociology & cultural anthropology & know something about the subject.
No you don’t. You want a white bread monoculture. Your rules, your culture. Immigrants come to you & not the other way around. Good luck.
No actually, YOU are done on this topic.
Shai, the way you put it in your last comment above, I’d agree with you on most points. One last point to make: in my opinion it’s not so much about immigrants, but about groups of individuals. There are groups of natives who exhibit the same intolerance and anti-social behavior that you don’t like about immigrants.
And exactly, you have no natural access to them and their culture. And they have no natural access to you and your culture. That’s a mutual problem. Please, don’t blame everything on them. Peace!
Multiculturalism has not failed in Europe or anywhere else. Just because a bunch of racist white politicians like Merkel or Cameron declare multiculturalism dead doesn’t make it so. It only proved their racism and either yr ignorance or yr own racism on the matter.
I know nothing of the sort. How do you know anything about the Arabs of Germany? Do you know any? Have you visited their communities? Have you read any serious books or resources on the subject? Or are you basing yr judgments on some nonsense spouted by a German pol seeking the votes of white xenophobes?
If Israel did more to try to absorb and respect Russian cultures, customs & values & integrate Russians fully into Israel life, that might change.
But you do, you have a problem with all Russians who don’t live as you think they should & don’t hold the same values as you think they should. That’s migthy white of you, don’t ya think?
Ah yes, the leftist Israeli who opposes the return of any Palestinian refugees? Leftist? What a laugh. YOu can call yourself a lot of things, but leftist isn’t one of ’em. Many Palestinians don’t hate Israelis. And there is certainly every reason to believe that a Palestinian who makes a deliberate choice to settle in Israel would attempt to make the best life possible for himself & his loved ones. For you to believe otherwise is simply…racist. So go put that in your leftist pipe & smoke it.
By that logic, you are antisemitic and and anti-Israeli. You have a problem with all Jews and Israelis who don’t live as you think they should & don’t hold the same values as you think they should. Don’t you, Mr. self-righteous white? You are doing EXACTLY what people you so often criticize of accusing you of being a self-hating Jew do. I happen to be a Polish Jew. I’d have the same problems with Polish Jewish immigrants segregated themselves and showed extreme reluctance to hop into the melting pot. Am I a self-hating Jew now, too?
…When did I ever say I oppose their return?? In fact I support it & compensation for their misery.
Richard, you do not own the term leftist and you will not define for me what I am as you will not let others define what you are. You reserve the right to call yourself pro-Israel, leftist, humanist, beacon of light, or whatever name you see fit, as I reserve the same right for myself thankyouverymuch.
For sure there are many Palestinians who don’t hate Israelis. Also for sure there are many, if not most, who do. To deny this is ridiculous and delusional.
What kind of human being wouldn’t want to make the best life possible for themselves & their loved ones?? What the hell do you take me for? If I were dislocated by an occupier and forced to live in a refugee camp for decades, I definitely would try to make the best life for myself & my loved ones. It’s just that none of the people who took part in that occupation would be my loved ones.
You ever write anything like that again here even in a theoretical or hypothetical manner you’ll be gone. In a heartbeat. You know the comment rules, and if you don’t read them. Now.
I have a problem with Israelis holding hateful, racist views in such a manner that it endangers the long term survival of Israel. I have a problem w. Israelis who oppose their state being fully democratic because this too is an existential threat to Israel’s long term survival.
I don’t care how ticked off you are about me & what I’ve written about you. If you continue with this type of snark you’re gone. Real gone.
You said Palestinians who returned to Israel would have no hope of integrating into Israeli society. Besides being outrageously false & not grounded in any real evidence, it could easily be confused for opposing Return.
If you write things that violate the principles of progressive values I’ll call you what you are. If you don’t like it you can lump it.
There are around 10 million or more Palestinians throughout the world. How can you possibly know that “most” hate Israel? Have you seen any polls to that effect? On what besides useless speculation do you base such a claim??
Someone who thinks he’s something other than he really is, at least as you express yrself here.
Is this a joke? Read what I wrote again. I wrote BY THAT LOGIC. Your flawed logic. Not mine.
Again you are twisting my words. That’s not at all what I said. Read my comment again. I said they would not attempt to integrate. Obviously I did not mean all Palestinians across the universe. I meant a sizable group. It’s so “outrageously false” that it’s happened with pretty much every group of immigrants with major cultural gaps in the past. Read almabu’s comment to get an idea of what happens in real life. Also, I thought you didn’t like it when people aren’t precise in their claims and don’t accurately quote others?
First of all I didn’t say that FOR CERTAIN most do. I said that many & POSSIBLY most. You seem to have a recurring reading comprehension problem, or you’re just forcibly trying to find things to latch on so it’s easier to attack me. What am I basing this claim on? Perhaps what I constantly see on TV, on the internet. What I see is mostly hate & resentment. I see a lot of furious people. Do you deny that there are many Palestinians who hate Israel? Show me a poll that tells otherwise and I’ll be pleasantly at awe. It is only sensible that a nation – driven out of its homeland later living under occupation/in refugee camps, and virtually every member of that nation having lost loved ones due to Israel’s actions – would grow to hate Israel.
I’ll tell you what I am. I am ready & willing to face reality as it is. When virtually every friend/relative I know that lives abroad tells me of the failure of SOME groups of immigrants to integrate, and the lengths to which they go to separate themselves from the majority, I don’t get up from my chair and yell “THAT’S RACIST!”.
I said I’d left everything (culturally) behind when I went to South America. That means I found it acceptable to be sitting in a bus w/ silent engine for 3 hours while nobody explains to me or anyone else what the hell is going on. A group of about a dozen persons get off the bus and defecate literally just outside the bus’ doors. A woman enters the bus with a box full of livestock. People go to sleep on the bus’ floor. I found all of this acceptable, because I was in Peru and this is how things go there. But I sure as hell wouldn’t want that to happen in Israel, where MY culture is the dominant one and these things are considered not only unacceptable, but also rude, disgusting, and borderline inhumane.
So yes, that means I am tolerant of other cultures. Does this mean I should let every single one of them into my own society? No.
“For sure there are many Palestinians who don’t hate Israelis. Also for sure there are many, if not most, who do. To deny this is ridiculous and delusional.”
Shai, this probably is what you see on TV and the Internet, but it isn’t representative of real life here. The atmosphere isn’t one of hatred towards Israeli people. If anything, it’s the exact opposite. I never fail to be touched by people’s compassion. A lot of the older people here had Israeli friends before travel restrictions broke their contact into pieces. Of course there was always injustice, and of course that hurt them and made them angry, but they were able to form friendships in spite of it. Believe it or not, my landlady and her husband used to be close friends with a settler couple from somewhere near Ramallah. I was stunned when I heard that. Since then I’ve heard too many similar stories to be surprised. It’s not that my landlady and her husband aren’t angry about the occupation, and it’s not that it doesn’t damage their lives, and it’s not that they are OK with settlements. But it’s possible to hate an injustice without hating a person.
It’s harder for children. They’re growing up without meeting any Israelis at all, except for people in uniform and people with guns. Because of this, a lot of schools (particularly in areas where settler violence is at its worst) try to bring in Israeli Jews to talk to the children, so that they can see that not all Israelis want to harm them. A few days ago a friend told me the story of an Israeli couple who went into a school near Hebron with her to do just that. The children were wary, but interested, and in the end one small girl burst out, “You can’t be real Israelis. Where are your Israeli clothes?” She meant IDF uniform. It’s sad, but at the same time it’s hopeful – these children would be able to relate well to Israelis if only they could do it as equals, and not from the other end of a gun barrel. This is the positive side of life in Palestine, the side that you rarely get to hear about in the media and on the Internet. You see and hear upsetting things here, but there are good things to counterbalance them and to help you fight against them.
“What kind of human being wouldn’t want to make the best life possible for themselves & their loved ones?? What the hell do you take me for? If I were dislocated by an occupier and forced to live in a refugee camp for decades, I definitely would try to make the best life for myself & my loved ones. It’s just that none of the people who took part in that occupation would be my loved ones.”
I was in Dheisheh refugee camp just yesterday, interviewing people who have been through some very painful situations. There is anger and there is hurt and there is a lot of fear. The IDF make incursions into the camp about twice a week on average (this week it was four times) and the shadow of the prison hangs over the camp. So many arrests. But the anger is not directed at Israelis as individuals. The first man I spoke to was eager to talk about the camp’s cultural and educational programmes, which are designed to help the camp children understand non-violence. He also talked about the right of return, and how his desire to return home to Walaja as a positive thing for Israelis as well as for himself. This reminded me of what Eitan Bronstein wrote last Nakba Day: “When you return these empty towns and villages will be filled with people, they will be bursting with life and will stop being only a testimony for death and sad memories as they have been for 62 years. Filling up these spaces will also fill up the empty space in my own humanity. Your right to return is my opportunity and that of all Israelis to begin restoring our humanity.”
This is not to say that every single Palestinian is like this, or that interaction with Israelis comes easily to people. Of course it’s difficult. It could never be easy, not given everything that’s happened. But you can find it difficult to speak to a person without hating them – in fact, it’s your regard for them that enables you to confront the difficulties and the painfulness of your shared past.
As for love, I quite often hear Palestinians (usually mothers) speaking with compassion about the soldiers at the checkpoint and the mothers of those soldiers. In Umm al-Khair a few weeks ago, one of the Bedouin men pointed at the nearby settlement and said, “We should share. We are brothers of Abraham.” Those settlers are violent and extremist and yet the Bedouin manage not to hate them, even though they are causing direct suffering. Sometimes when you suffer you can access a dignity that enables you to rise above hatred.
The Israeli authorities employ all sorts of methods to keep Palestinians and Israeli Jews from mixing. One of them is through cultivation of fear, and the result is that even the most well-meaning people cling to the notion that Palestinians hate them. This is part of the mechanism of the occupation. I once saw a book that aptly described it as ‘occupied minds’.
“I’ll tell you what I am. I am ready & willing to face reality as it is.”
That being the case, I’d like to repeat my invitation of a couple of months ago. Do you want to visit? Areas B and C of the West Bank (81% of the place) are open to you legally, and no one is going to catch you if you come into Area A. Come and see for yourself.
And thank you for caring. I disagree with quite a bit of what you write, but your compassion for Palestinians is clear to see.
Vicky, thanks a lot for these first-hand accounts from Palestine. Sad and inspiring at the same time. If only indeed people could get to know each other better, across the barriers, fear and prejudice.
Vicky,
Thanks a LOT for this comment. I realize what I see on the media is often skewed and not representative of reality but it’s all I have. Then I read about holocaust denial & ignorance amongst Palestinians, and shows aimed at children which depict Israeli soldiers as bloodthirsty devils, and I can’t help but feel helpless as to how a Palestinian would grow to hate Israelis.
I would still love to go on a tour & I’d appreciate it even more if you could show me around. I’m sure you could take me to places I normally would never get to see. Richard can give you my e-mail address.
I really am sorry for the double post (ill make it my last on this thread), but i must response to this:
I didnt say it was WRONG. I said it failed. The holocast was the pick of it, but it didnt start or end there, and its obvious without it a jewish state would have never been created.
I didnt say it would CAUSE slaughter, i said it would raise the chance for one, just like it happend throughout history, and will make israel irrelevant.
Regarding african americans – theres a de-facto segregation in the usa you all tend to ignore. Having a black president and a theoretical equallity didnt really solve much, but thats an issue for another blog/thread
The Emancipation was neither wrong nor failed. In fact, the Enlightenment was a glorious development for world Jewry and the Holocaust did not wipe out the importance of this milestone.
As for yr claim that changing the nature of Israeli society so that it embraced its minorities as equal citizens would “raise the chance” for “Jew slaughter” is like saying that baking a cake may cause the world the explode. Or saying that having an African American president may cause Blacks to rise up and slaughter their white masters. Sure, it might happen. But how likely is it?
@Shai
“…You can see how that’s worked out in Europe. It would be much better if (in the case of Germany) Arabs were more willing to adapt to German culture and customs. They have chosen to segregate themselves…”
Among migrants, there is less will to integrate in Europes societies (not only in Germany) by ethnic groups of Turks and Arabs. Many of them just don’t want to integrate. It is strange that decendants of migrants, born and grown up in Germany, sometimes are less integrated than their parents or grandparents. But in the meantime, over the past 50 years, they build up a complete infrastructure. They watch their home-tv by satellite dishes. They have shops, doctors, lawyers, banks, car-dealers, restaurants, exclusive times in public baths and pools.
The Turkish Prime-Minister Erdogan visited Germany, allways with elections ahead, and called “his” people not to integrate in Germany, to never forget to be “proud Turks”, asks Mrs. Merkel to found (and finance) turkish schools and universities in Germany…
On the other side he admits, that the “anatolian villages” some of those migrants hold in their hearts and minds, didn`t even exist in Turkey anymore.
I can live parallel societies daily in the Kindergarten and schools of our children, were open arms and the offer for contacts were usually rejected.
Shai, y’s remarks are representative of “cultural racism”. Just substitute the word race by the word culture: he seems to believe that factors that constitute culture are a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that cultural differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular culture over other cultures. An Arab who does not adapt to y’s culture is for him not worth sharing with and hence is inferior.
I don’t know what y means by Western culture. In the West we have many different subcultures with often opposing values. All the nice words and declarations apart, our predominant culture is that of consumerism, conformism, competition, hypocrisy, sensationalism, impatience, intolerance or at best indifference towards strangers, etc. Yes, we’ve achieved substantial technological progress, comfortable standard of living and fair amount of freedom for ourselves. But under our thin civilized veneer, there still seems to be much more hate than love, ignorance than knowledge, greed than sharing.
It is these attitudes of our culture that the peoples of the world hate about us. They are fed up with our self-righteous talk about civilization, equality, human rights, peace, etc., while in reality we see and treat the rest of the world as inferior, and our governments and multinationals support wars, oppression, hate, greed, dictatorships for political and economic gains. So why would anyone adapt or subscribe to this Western culture?
Leonid Levin,
I do not see anyone as inferior. I don’t think African tribes who spend their day hunting deer and harvesting fruits are inferior human beings. I simply do not wish to share their way of life. If that is “cultural racism” (whatever that is) then I plead guilty.
Immigrants who don’t want to integrate into the local culture are just as culturally intolerant as I am. This is why multiculturalism often does not work.
I respect the right of every human being to do whatever they wish to do in private. When it breaches out and is apparent in public it affects my own culture that I would like to maintain as it is thankyouverymuch. Would you also call me culturally intolerant if I criticized a person’s harem of a dozen women?
When I traveled to South America for months, I left everything behind and adapted to what was socially and culturally acceptable. All the more so if I were to migrate there.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
I was actually initially commenting about y’s remarks. Maybe, “cultural racism” is not about your sharing somebody else’s way of life, but about expecting others to share your way of life.
I just don’t understand what you mean by a local culture, because there is no one culture, there are many cultures. The only common denominator of all the different cultures that I see is this: one has to respect the laws of the country and the freedom of other citizens. The rest is up to the individual. The law is the same for everybody. Those laws one deems unreasonable can be challenged by honest and peaceful means.
You want to maintain your culture unchanged, ok, go ahead. Except for the fact that the only constant in this world is that everything is forever changing. So your culture of today is not the same as that of your parents or that of yours of a few years ago. What was unacceptable some time ago is becoming mainstream today. Views and attitudes change under the influence of new ideas.
About the harem, it depends on how you criticize other ways of life. If you make no effort to understand another culture and how certain customs came to be in historical and social context, and just bash it because it is different, then I’d call it arrogant and ignorant behavior. If you say: ok, I understand how things have evolved that way, but in our day and age this may not be the way to go, so let’s talk about that and see what’s best for all parties involved, then I’d say bravo. Sorry about being politically correct.
Leonid, I actually agree with 99% of what Shai says.
I dont expect anyone to share my way of life – as long as they dont expect me to share my wealth with them.
The tribes shai mentions. They are extremly poor by our standarts. Do you think if they moved to europe and started hunting deer here, they’d turn into rich just cause they moved to europe?
The same is true about all immigrants. The difference between rich west and poor east lays in the cultural difference between us. I dont mind how they live there, but the moment they come here and wish us to share our wealth with them – they should realise what this requires on their side as well. They cant live like they are still in Pakistan/Russia/Turkey/you name it, not even bother to study the local language, and be surprised they are still poor.
I’m gonna repeat myself just one more time. This is not a blog meant to expound upon yr racist ignorant theories. I don’t want to hear it. Period.
Listen carefully, I WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO SPOUT RACIST NONSENSE. I will refuse to publish any future comments yours containing such nonsense.
Racist nonsense? So there is no difference in living standarts between Germany and Uganda? Or maybe it can be xplained by USAs and west generally double standarts towards the others?
You yourself bring USA as an example for a democracy, now please, how showing USA as a country has a better, more democratic government than israel is more racist than claiming israel or the u.n or usa provide more to their citizens and are a way better places to live in than the arab world?
What the hell does it have to do with racism? This is EXACTLY opposed to racism. There are lots of Arabs/Muslims more educated/smarter than i am. This is about choice. Some choose to hunt deer, and some choose to study math. Those who choose to hunt deer cannot expect to be as rich as the ones with math phd.
I dont know much about them, but if the Chancellor or the interior minister in Germany (where they are naturally more careful to sound racist than anywhere else) claim the muslims failed to integrate – i think they know better than you or i. For you they all racists, but you suffer from ur own paradoxes. You’re more than ready to accuse modern day european leaders in racism, and also more than ready to disagree with me when i claim emancipation of jews failed at least until ww2 has ended.
This proves nothing. The standard of living in Dubai, Oman, Brunei, Saudi Arabia is higher than in Britain or Mexico or eastern Europe. What does this prove??
If they’re Israeli Palestinians, it’s only because they triumphed over the institutional racism of their society & somehow developed their intellectual abilities without the aids & support you enjoyed as an Israeli Jew.
Richness isn’t determined solely by money in the bank. I know a lot of deer hunters who are far richer in humanity than you. Any day.
If the chancellor of Germany or P.M. of Britain say Muslims haven’t integrated into their society it doesn’t mean jack-shit. It means they’re running for votes & need white people on their side so they’ll whale on immigrants because many arent’ citizens & may not vote. It’s that simple.
Actually this is not really correct, judging by the u.n:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
What does this prove? exactly what ive said. If u live in a country which is an E.U member or North America or Australia – you are more likely to enjoy higher standart of living, than an averag citizens of any given arab country. Having 2-3 as an exceptions doesnt really change the hwole picture.
Im sorry, but u again contradict ur own values . Either multiculturalism is an issue there, or u just assume the average German/British is racist. If you thin multiculturalism is not an issue there – by your logic it means they all are just racists, and assuming a nation is racist is being racist urself. sorry.
OK, you’re done. Next thread. Don’t publish in this thread anymore as you’ve repeated yourself and exhausted anything useful you ever had to say.
Certainly you do. You see Arabs who supposedly refuse to integrate into Germany or Russian who do the same in Israel as inferior to the surrounding majority culture. Immigrants aren’t necessarily “refusing” to integrate. In many cases the surrounding society is intolerant & disrespectful of their cultural identity.
You would be in a minority as Israeli tourists are known for being extremely disrespectful of the cultures & societies they visit, partly because of the notion that you embrace that you prefer the values of your own society & demand that others embrace it precisely as you have when they live among you.
So I see Russians as inferior because some of them have failed to integrate? What? That doesn’t even make sense. And if the surrounding society was so intolerant, how come most of them did? That makes even less sense.
Most of the Israeli tourists I met were not disrespectful at all. I believe this is an example case of a loud & troublesome minority (arsim as we call them). Of course I prefer the values of my own society. Am I supposed to feel bad about that? Are you so backward as to be one hundred percent tolerant of foreign societies and scorn your own?
That’s funny because I don’t “prefer” the values of my society. I don’t see my own society or values as being superior or preferable in any way to those of other societies. In fact, in some ways I’m very critical of some of the values of my own society & prefer those of others.
I’m not “100% tolerant” of any society including my own. But casting a cold, critical eye on the place & mores where you grew up isn’t “backwards” by any means. In fact, it’s quite tolerant & progressive. Another reason I find you not to be smolani at all. You might want to change yr blog name to “centrist,” or “liberal” because that’s what you are.
I don’t approve of every facet of my society, but I prefer it over most others and if I didn’t I would go to someplace else where there is a culture I find myself more belonging to.
For some reason you think it appropriate to cast a critical eye on your own society but not on others. Why not? I have my own set of values and I judge and criticize every society & culture by them.
Haha, is this supposed to be some kind of insult? How nice of you to be such a condescending “tolerant & progressive” blogger…
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