Got that? You better. ‘Cause if you don’t or if you have any other opinion on the matter Ronen Shoval, founder of the Israeli hasbara outfit will set you straight; or else sue your ass off. I don’t know if Ronen has considered how he can do that to those outside Israel, but considering how many Israelis he’s threatened with lawsuits if they bad-mouth the group, he’ll undoubtedly find a way to sic someone on me as well. But like Didi Remez, one of those he’s threatened, I have no fear of his thuggery.
There’s a lot of interesting matters to report about the thugs who parodied New Israel Fund chair, Naomi Chazan by displaying a rhino horn on her head in ads which accused her and NIF of being traitors to the State of Israel for cooperating with the Goldstone Report (NIF didn’t, though some of its grantees did).
Those of you who know and use Wikipedia may think of it as a repository of online information, a sort of freewheeling encyclopedia of knowledge. Everywhere but Israel that is. Partly because of excessive editorial caution, partly because of a societal fear of violating political consensus, and partly because of legal blackmail, Hebrew Wikipedia shies away from a number of controversial subjects. I wrote here that it removed an article about Anat Kamm and refused to publish anything until well after the gag order about her arrest was lifted (a number of us interested in the subject made sure there was an English Wikipedia entry).
Now, Wikipedia has also removed an article about Im Tirtzu under threat of lawsuit if it calls the group “right-wing.” The editors refuse this concession and their only recourse seems to be to remain silent on the entire issue. You can’t find any article about the group in Hebrew Wikipedia. I’m not enough of a Wikipedian to know how the various editions are run and how each edition relates to the broader Wikipedia movement, but it seems to me that Hebrew Wikipedia falls far short of the free-wheeling, authority-defying standards that I’ve always thought the broader project represented.
I cannot exert any pressure on the contents or editors of Hebrew Wikipedia. I doubt they know or care what I have to say. But I will certainly report its deficiencies to my readers and hope that they will make my views known within an Israeli context.
Let’s tell it like it is. Ronen Shoval is a thug. Maybe he’s not a thug in the sense of beating Naomi Hazan up in a dark alley in Tel Aviv and sending her to the hospital. But he’s a garden-variety political thug. Thugs threaten. They bully. They use the system to get what they want. They confront. They get in your face. So what do you do if you’re a target of these biryonim? Do you remain silent? Do you worry about lawyer’s fees? Do you back down? Hell no. Not unless you want them to redouble their attacks on you.
You stand toe to toe and face to face. You let them know you will defend your position b’chol m’odecha (“everything in your power”). You let them know if they want to draw metaphoric blood their’s will be mixed with yours. I tell them if they want to threaten to sue, bring it on (just as Didi has done, kol hakavod lo [“more power to him”]).
Shoval, or whoever directs or advises him, might want to consider that vacant threats of legal action tend to provoke precisely the types of hostile responses to Im Tirtzu which bring on the threats to begin with.
So here’s something else to stew over Ronen. This blog has reported that It Tirtzu received $200,000 over two years from John Hagee’s Christians United for Israel. Hagee, the apocalyptic “not-one-inch” Christian Zionist boasts about contributing millions to Israel. I’ve listed a good deal of his settler and right-wing grantees.
Yossi Gurvitz reveals in his Israeli blog that Im Tirtzu is using the American Jewish settler group, the Central Fund of Israel, as its pass-through 501c3 which enables U.S. donors to receive a tax-deduction in return for their support for right wing Israeli political thuggery. Since Im Tirtzu is a fairly new organization, there will not yet be an IRS 990 record of how much the group will receive from CFI. But considering the latter raised $47-million in 2008, the amount could be sizable. Undoubtedly, a chunk of it will go to pay Im Tirtzu’s lawyer’s fees for all the Israelis and American Jews they plan to sue for slander.
In case you hadn’t heard of CFI or don’t believe my claims about them. Here are some of the wonderful enterprises they’ve funded: Honenu, which provides legal representation for Jewish terrorists like Yigal Amir and Jack Teitel and lobbies for their release from prison. Women in Green, whose leader, Nadia Matar, supported the assassination of Mahmoud Abbas during a speech she gave at a Manhattan shul a few years ago. Over a half-million dollars of these funds went to support “security” for Israeli settlements which can include anything from K-9 attack dogs to communication gear to Uzis.
As Yossi Gurvitz says, if something looks like a right-wing duck and walks and talks like one then it is one:
Im Tirzu’s masquerading as a centrist movement, while it feeds at the trough of an extreme right wing fundraising society, should cast a shadow on each and every one of its claims.
Im Tirtzu is a danger to Israeli democracy. Indeed its flourishing indicates something deeply rotten with the Israeli body politic.
For those who need a good, healthy dose of satire and who know some Hebrew, take yourself immediately to this parody site, Im Tirtzu Im Lo Tirzu (“Whether You Want It or Not,” a parody of the original Herzl-inspired name, “If You Will It”). The parody site’s sub-title is: “The quiet fascist revolution.” Shoval’s lawyers should be filing suit shortly…
Which brings me to the observation that the closer Israel gets to flat-out authoritarianism the stronger, sharper and more telling becomes the political satire. This is how Vaclav Havel got his start before the Velvet Revolution took hold. It must’ve been what it was like in the days of Sovet samizdat. It’s probably like this in Ahmadinejad’s Iran. Is this what Israel has come to? Instead of the Prelude to a Kiss, it’s the prelude to full-blown rightist supremacy. The Shin Bet will “advise” the prime minister, who will dutifully do as he is told. Or better yet as in Russia, the prime minister might just as well BE a former officer in the intelligence services (that would be Tzipi Livni if she ever gets anywhere near the prime ministership, which is highly doubtful).
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richard,
wikipedia frequently removes full pages and edits when requested by the parties being spoken of. especially if there arent good sources given regarding the notations or edits.
in fact, the entire wiki entry regarding judge goldstone’s apartheid record was recently scrubbed.
Do show me a Wikipedia article in English which was taken down because the subject demanded it (Kamm); or because the subject threatened a lawsuit if the contents weren’t articulated the way they wished.
RE: “You let them know if they want to draw metaphoric blood their’s will be mixed with yours.” – R. Silverstein
MY COMMENT: But wouldn’t that then make you metaphorical blood brothers? (lol)
RE: “…Hebrew Wikipedia shies away from a number of controversial subjects. I wrote here that it removed an article about Anat Kamm…” – R. Silverstein
FROM WMR (MADSEN), 05/08/10: “…Wikipedia deleted Benjamin Emanuel’s entry in 2008, shortly after Rahm Emanuel was designated as President Obama’s chief of staff…”
Is there an Israeli equivalent to Conservapedia, the fighting fundy protestant answer to Wikipedia? It mostly wasted it’s time defending creationism, last I looked, and supported a “conservatized” King James Bible. But I would imagine it supportes John Haggee type Dispensationalism, too.
Zhu Bajie
Ronen Shoval is a clown. The man was a candidate (at an unrealistic rank, but a candidate) for Knesset on the “National Union” ticket – that’s the party where bona fide judo-nazi (kahanist) Michael Ben Ari is an MK, as is Judo-but-not-Jehovah-nazi Aryeh Eldad. His partner in fascist astroturf leadership is Erez Tadmor, who reputedly danced for joy when PM Rabin was murdered. But sure, they’re not right wing…
Oh, and Tadmor was convicted of stealing weapons and munitions from the IDF. He claimed it was for self defense in case chaos broke out… Sure, Erez, we believe you. 😛
Would someone please explain to me why “progressives” can talk like this about those on the Right who oppose them, but when the Right criticizes the Left, it is somehow not legitimate, called “incitement”, “smears” or “McCarthyism”. Isn’t “freedom of speech” mean that one tolerates free speech even from one’s opponents and not just one’s supporters?
When was the last time there was a demonstration by Israeli progressives outside Gerald Steinberg or Ronen Shoval’s homes in which they were parodied with costumes meant to imply that they hated their country & were allied with its enemies? When was the last time a progressive killed, wounded, beat up or physically threatened a rightist? When was the last time that any Knesset member suggested a rightist member should be hanged? When was the last time a Knesset member suggested that rightist NGOs should be stifled? When was the last time that any progressive suggested that rightists should be forcibly transferred to another country?
When any of that happens, let me know & we can talk. Till then, yr arguments are unimpressive to say the least.
you might add – when was the last time a progressive has murdered a rightist. the death and near death toll till now is at least 4-0 for the rightist in the last 62 years
When was the last time a right winger stole classified military documents from the IDF senior command?
When was the last time a right winger revealed secrets concerning Israel’s nuclear program and sold or gave them to a foreign press?
When was the last time a right winger translated secret IDF documents for the benefit of terrorists?
When was the last time a right winger broke a perfectly legal gag order issued by an Israeli judge to a foreign blog?
When was the last time an Israeli army committed war crimes which induced the soldier to take the documents and leak them to an Israeli newspaper?
When was the last time Israel developed nuclear weapons which no other nation in the region possessed thereby destabilizing the region & inducing the whistleblower to leak the information (NOT sell it unless you can provide evidence of such)?
When was the last time the IDF created lists of those whom it sought to kill using targeted assassination, a tactic consider a violation of international law, and one which caused Tali Fahima to translate such a list when she discovered it?
When was the last time a reader wrote a comment which was unintelligible in this blog? Israeli judges don’t issue gag orders to foreign blogs, which is what you appeared to be saying in yr own garbled fashion. Further, gag orders are legal in an Israeli context though in most other western democracies no gag order would be considered legal based on the circumstances of these particular Israeli gag orders.
not that it’s relevant to this discussion, but “when was the last time a right winger stole classified informaion from the army? try the disengagement, when soldiers leaked information to settlers, try one, bibi netanyahu, who read classified information on the knesset podium
and the discussion here was about political violence, it’s easy to try to shift it, easier than dealing with not so convenient fact – political violence in israel originates only from the right.
That’s the thing with “progressives”. They only believe in democracy when it suits their agenda.
Kam betrayed the trust the IDF placed in her and committed a grave crime. It turns out her accusations were baseless, as Mani Mazuz reviewed the evidence and found that the IDF did not violate the Supreme Court ruling. So much for being a whistleblower.
What I meant to say in my last paragraph was that whoever leaked the information to a foreign blog breached the gag order. Bad wording on my part.
Israel is a democracy. Israel is THE ONLY democracy in the middle east.
“Political violence in Israel originates only from the right”
So terrorism isn’t political violence? It only comes from the right? Just a few months ago an Israeli man,affiliated with a leftist Israeli political party (Balad) was sentenced to 68 months in jail for collecting and passing information on Gabi Ashkenazi to Hizballah.
Others have repeated the very same arguments you raised here. Pls don’t repeat previous comments. It is a total drag for me to have to repeat myself. First, Kamm certainly did not commit a “grave” crime as other soldiers before her have done precisely what she did & received a sentence of being confined to base (this was a case in which Uri Blau was leaked documents just like the Kamm case). 2nd, Mazuz is no moral or legal arbiter & certainly not trustworthy in his judgment on this matter. His job is to whitewash the IDF, which is what he did. His latter validating the killings was pathetic.
Once again, we’ve been over this argument 1,000 times. The next time you repeat an argument for the 1,000th time I simply won’t publish it. You read the threads. You know what people write. Don’t repeat arguments of others. Israel is not a democracy and it’s certainly not the only democracy in the Middle East even if it were (which it isn’t). You’ve omitted Lebanon, Turkey and arguably Iran.
Regarding the right wing monopoly on political violence, you know as well as I do that we were talking about Israeli Jewish political violence. So again, find me an example of an Israeli leftist who killed or beat up a rightist. 2nd, I wouldn’t trust the evidence in that case as far as I could throw it. You seem to believe that every Israeli Palestinian convicted by an Israeli court (& even ones not convicted) for a security offense is guilty. I find that a dubious proposition.
So according to you Israel is not a democracy and Lebanon is. I actually laughed out loud when I read that.
Why is Israel more of a democracy or a better democracy than Lebanon. You’ll have to spell that out for me.
There are actually objective ways of measuring whether Israel is a more secure democracy than Lebanon. For example, the media analysis group Reporters Without Borders publishes a “Press Freedom Index”. In the one published in 2009, Lebanon came 61st out of 175 countries. Israel did significantly worse, at 90th out of 175 countries, showing that the country is in the bottom half when it comes to press-freedom, which is a central component of a healthy democracy.
Freedom House, an US government funded organization which measures freedom in various countries, recently published its report of freedoms such as freedom of speech, press and political freedoms in Israel. It ranked Israel as “partly free”. Freedom House is typically a mouth-piece of the US government, which favorably ranks US allies and is biased against official enemies. The fact that it had to downgrade Israel to even maintain credibility speaks volumes about the situation.
So the idea that Lebanon is a much healthier democracy than Israel is actually not “laughable” at all. There is a substantial quantity of data supporting that idea.
How are releasing classified documents or breaking a gag order a threat to democracy?
What the Israeli right is doing (i.e. stifling free speech, stifling the right to political affiliation, attacking academics by trying to get them fired, etc etc) is a direct threat to democracy.
None of your accusations against the left qualify as a threat to democracy. In fact, state secrets and media gag orders are clearly a threat to democracy. So in effect, what you accuse the leftists of doing is building and developing Israeli democracy.
But in reality I know that you got confused and lost track of the conversation, so you tried to cover yourself by turning the entire argument into left-vs-right pissing contest.
Rechavia, do you have a source for these articles of Tadmor’s biography?
Im Tirzu brings back zionist and Jewish values, somethind that you seemingly don’t have. Without those values Israel will become just another unmoral nation, but just because we are not and we have higher values, people like you and all kind of others attack us in order to cover their own moral complexes against us. Sory, the wind at the moment (also thanks to people like you that pressure Israel enormously and unfairly) is blowing the right way… 😉 Our enemies will attack any way, at least we will have the will to defend and not become a bunch of pacifists like you.
Who are you – another German trying actively to NOT remember the Holocaust by imitating hardcore-Zionists?
(Wer bist du denn – noch ein Deutscher, der sich von der Erinnerung an den Holocaust lösen will, indem er irgendwelche Steinzeit-Zionisten imitiert?)
I wonder if shoval will ever make true with his threats and actually sue someone. should be interesting
If Im Tirzu threatens a lawsuit against Wikipedia, it’s thuggery, what’s it called when Naomi Chazan threatens suit against the Jerusalem Post, Maariv, and Yediot b/c she didn’t like the way she was characterized in an advertisement?
A bold step for democracy in Israel?
She threatened to sue the Jerusalem Post because she had a contract to write for them which they abrogated. She didn’t threaten to sue any of the other papers you claim she did. Can’t you at least get yr facts right?
The facts:
a) http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/048/605.html?hp=0&loc=104&tmp=1537 (in case your Hebrew isn’t great, translation of the the 2nd paragraph: “NIF’s lawyers demanded that Maariv, Yediot, Jerusalem Post, as well as the nrg and ynet websites, immediately remove the advertisement against Chazan and the NIF, to post apologies, and to compensate both for 100,000 shekel. If they don’t, they threaten, the NIF will pursue a libel suit. Im Tirzu…is also included in the threatening letter.”
b) http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=167984, the suit preceded the cancellation of Chazan’s column.
Don’t you just hate it when the MSM doesn’t cooperate with your version of the truth?
We’re talking about 2 diff. things, chum. She threatened a lawsuit over the cancellation of her column.
What an insulting moronic comment. Don’t you notice how many links there are here to the Israeli Hebrew press. Do you notice my use of Hebrew in my posts? Why do you think I do that? Because my Hebrew “isn’t great?” Maybe it’s you who’s understanding isn’t great of my command of Hebrew.
As for the lawsuit, yeah if someone peddles lies in an ad (& Im TIrtzu is a tissue of lies in everything it does including its ad) I think she has every right to sue if Israel allows for that. And you know what, the minute NIF takes out an ad that lies about Im Tirtzu I’ll recommend that Ronen, if he needs any encouragement, should sue too. I don’t like lies in ads no matter who expresses them. But the Israeli far right engages in lies & incitement far better & far more often than the left.
It was John Hagee Ministries, not Christians United for Israel (CUFI) who supported Im Tirtzu. It’s confusing because CUFI is the more political of John Hagee’s organizations. Though CUFI’s founder, John Hagee, may have a “not-one-inch” mentality, there are many CUFI members that do not share that sentiment, including the current director. Don’t let hard feelings get in the way of a solid reporting of the facts.
@Ulrich Becker: recalls me on George W. Bushs announcement to bring back decency in the White House. well done! Blodd-dripping decency of the sorts we can see coming from Bibi and his right-wingers.
Since that Ronan Shoval guy is wearing a Herzl t-shirt (and I won’t deny he is one stylish icon) now seems a good time to share two quotes from his diary.
“Just try to rescind the legal equality of the Jews. (Only their legal equality exists, anyway. What a misunderstood doctrine for the men from the beerhall!) What would be the consequences of that? Immediately all Jews, not only the poor ones as hitherto, but the rich ones as well, would join the Socialist Party with all their resources. They would plunge to their moneybags the way a Roman plunged unto his sword.” – Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl, vol. I, p. 121
“About two years ago I wanted to solve the Jewish Question, at least in Austria, with the help of the Catholic Church. I wished to gain access to the Pope (not without first assuring myself of the support of the Austrian church dignitaries) and say to him: Help us against the anti-semites and I will start a great movement for the free and honorable conversion of Jews to Christianity.” – ibid p. 7
Richard hi,
Thanks for helping bring these thugs out into the daylight. A weird disconnect between their “investigations” of progressive groups, and their thuggish resistance to being scrutinized themselves! Need to keep drilling into that, there’s a lot of gold hiding there I guess.
Two comments:
1. I saw somewhere (maybe here?) the hypothesis that actually, Im Tirtzu might be a rogue arm of the government, or at least of Netanyahu’s political machine. There is just too much similarity and synergy between their actions and public statements, and the government.
If so, I suggest replacing “jack-booted thugs” with “Netanyahu’s propaganda janjaweed”. Needs more exploration, their government connections.
2. Regarding Hebrew Wikipedia: in short, it sucks. But besides censorial tendencies, it seems like Israel’s Wikipedia-contributor constituency is quite right-wing and settler-dominated. Fact of the matter is, the Israeli pubic is right-wing now, and the less-right-wing part of it (except for the small anti-Occupation minority) is quite apathetic. So right-wingers, esp. settlers, are more engaged in the local Wikipedia project and therefore affect its character more.
It is quite amazing sometimes, to see the difference between the Hebrew and English on items like “D-9”, or “Ezra Nawi”. In the English version Nawi is a human-rights hero, in the Hebrew he is a criminal and child molester who engages in “pro-Palestinian” activities in the south Hebron area (the words “Territories”, “Occupation” do not appear), and has assaulted soldiers there in 2007. The bitter discussions in the “discussion” tab show how the settler-types outnumber the “lefties” and force their distorted prism upon the article.
I agree. I think I mentioned this in this post. The similarity in tone, choice of targets, & general tactics scream out as either coordinated or even more closely directed by the intelligence community. In the 1960s, the CIA was found to have subsidized pro-American propaganda efforts through legitimate U.S. NGOs overseas. This strikes me as something possibly similar. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that Steinberg, Itamar Marcus & Shoval are either advised, directed or subsidized by Israeli intelligence.
I wish there was some way to make this known to Wikipedia’s international leadership, though what they can do is hard to know unless they deliberately recruit a more wide-ranging set of contributors.
I think what we can do is ensure that at least English Wikipedia is fair & honest on the same subjects where Hebrew Wikipedia is biased & distorted.
Oh, regarding Nawi: originally there was a battle whether he merits an article at all. This was long after he had an article in English Wikipedia.
For one. in Israel any citizen can aspire to any political office.
In Lebanon The President has to be a Maronite Christian, the Prime Minister a Sunni Muslim and the Speaker of the Parliament a Shi’a Muslim.
Two, a huge group of people living in Lebanon for the last 60 or so years have no rights, officially.
In Lebanon you have this huge military belonging to Hizballah which is not subordinate to the elected government. The Lebanese army which presumably is controlled by the government is not allowed to enter Palestinian areas.
But on the other hand, Lebanon has a lot of features of a parliamentary democracy and so I wouldn’t say they aren’t at all a democracy (in the way you completely dismiss Israeli democracy) but that Israel is more democratic.
Israel is a very vibrant democracy. In spite of your rhetoric the press is free, but of course is sometimes limited by the courts as should be. That’s called checks and balances. The press has exposed scandals eventually leading 2 prime minister to resign. The IDF is subordinate to the elected government. When Sharon didn’t think Ayalon was the man for the job, he let him off after three years as chief of staff. Ehud Barak did the same to Gabi Ashkenazy after four years.
Oh really. An Israeli Palestinian can aspire to be prime minister or defense minister or any sort of senior minister? On what basis do you make such a far-fetched claim? And are you also claiming that an Israeli non-Jew has a credible chance of attaining any of these offices?
Ah yes about those inconvenient Palestinians in Lebanon…who began relocating there after being expelled from their legitimate homes inside Israel in 1948. So are you saying that the fact that Israel originally took away their property, rights & citizenship & sent them packing to Lebanon is a fact that may be used to smear Lebanon as being non-democratic?? I might add that if Israel allowed any of them to return, they wouldn’t be a burden on Lebanon’s political system. But I realize this is a pipedream. Of course, you’d prefer to natter on ahistorically about the injustice that Lebanon inflicts on the poor Palestinians while ignoring the reason they’re there to begin with…Nice work if you can get it.
Ah yes, once again we have the rather unfortunate fact that Israel occupied all of southern Lebanon for years causing the rise of an anti-Israel militia which resisted this occupation. In other words, no Israeli occupation, no Hezbollah. Once again, this is a phenomenon for which Israel holds great responsibility.
Whoa, that’s not what I said. Israel is an ethnocracy. In other words it extends democratic rights to Israeli Jews. So saying that I completely dismiss Israeli demcoracy is a gross distortion of my real views.
Except in matters concerning national security, minority ethnic rights, etc. In those major areas it is a woefully calcified non-democracy.
You mean the press is free, except when it isn’t. Which is whenever the IDF censor or intelligence agencies wish it not to be free, which is quite often unfortunately.
No actually, that’s not called checks & balances. Checks & balances is a constitutional provision indicating a separation of powers among the 3 branches (at least in the U.S.) which Israel does not have (a constitution, that is). What you are talking about is an intelligence apparatus able to run roughshod over press freedom virtually at will. Definitely not checks & balances.
You’re talking about Olmert & that was a FINANCIAL scandal about which the press is free to report. I don’t know who is the 2nd PM you’re referring to.
The fact that a politician appoints the chief of staff does not prove that civilians control the military in Israel. Appointment of the top officer is but one of many decisions that are made. You can claim whatever you want. But any reasonable observer of the IDF & Israeli society knows that the IDF “owns” the country. Any major decision about which it feels strongly comes out the IDF’s way. There is almost no civilian oversight over the IDF. It acts w. almost complete impunity.