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Thanks to reader Alex Stein for forcing me to write a post I hate to write with every fiber of my being. An Indian news report claims that many of the Mumbai hostages were tortured before being killed and that the Chabad hostages were tortured most brutally of all. IF (and I stress “if” because stories like this must be confirmed and reconfirmed before they are accepted as truth) this story is true, it could set back Jewish-Muslim relations years if not decades. Not to mention, that it will further alienate Israeli Jews from believing it is possible to live in peace with the region’s Muslims.
Further, if it is true, then I will have to withdraw my earlier claims that anti-Semitism was an ancillary part of the strategy involved in this attack. If the Jewish victims were tortured savagely, then it will lead me to believe that there are much stronger links to Al Qaeda than I previously believed. Until now, I’d never thought that Pakistani militants hated the west and Jews specifically as Al Qaeda does. I’d thought their cause was more locally-determined. If the news is correct, then I think Pakistan, India and the entire region have a much bigger problem on their hands then previously thought.
Further, if the hostage torture indeed occurred it makes the Indian authorities decision to fight the terrorists slowly and deliberately a completely tragic and wrong-headed one. If they had attacked early, then it might have given the terrorists less time to commit such mayhem.
Finally, I would urge that when and if they find the mastermind of this attack that he should be tried before an international tribunal. The horror of these acts needs to be addressed not by the justice system of a single country, but by international justice. The world needs to universally condemn such brutalism.
I don’t wish to offer unsolicited advice to my Muslim readers, friends and others, but the Mumbai attack appears to have been done in the name of Kashmir, Palestine and Muslim suffering in general. Now, much like after 9/11, it is critical that the world hear from sane Muslims that this is a way they reject utterly and absolutely. To do so does not mean that Muslims must renounce their criticism of, or grievances against conditions they face. It means they must ostracize those who kill in the name of Islam or Muslim suffering.
I have been dedicated to Muslim-Jewish dialogue for many, many years. This horrific story will not deter me from my commitment. But it will set back all of our good work by so very much. I simply cannot understand the bestial savagery that lurks in the human mind (and note I said “human” mind and not “Muslim” mind–since the beast lurks in all of us).
Finally, I want to again emphasize that Alex provided only a single Indian source to confirm the torture claim. The Times of India, one of the nation’s most respected papers doesn’t mention this story [see UPDATE below]. Further, that news source does not name any of the doctors it quotes. Unnamed sources in this situation should not be considered reliable. Other previous elements of the Mumbai terror story were shown to be false on further investigation. It’s entirely possible that this claim too will prove false, though I fear it may not. If anyone can confirm that this report is false, please let me know ASAP.
UPDATE: Thanks again to Alex for pointing me to this Times of India story that acknowledges the possibility of torture, but in a very preliminary and tentative way, unlike the Rediff story.
UDPATE I: The Jerusalem Post casts doubt on the veracity of the torture claims after interviewing a Mumbai doctor who examined the Israeli bodies and judged they had not been tortured.
This is I hope my last post to this situation and final word. 1) Pakistan needs to shore up political difficulties with India as fast as the can before its too late. Admit that you have terrorists training and living in your backyard. 2) India needs to have every doctor who worked on this case along with Israel provide a loud and clear statement to the world (Officially) as to the physical condition of the Jewish people who were murdered i.e were there bodies only riddled as well as their faces with bullets so that they were beyond recognition, or were there actual torture markings? And if so, what exactly were they. I’m sure the Israeli governement saw their peoples bodies and can report this properly. 3) Murder and terrorism no matter where it is found is not justifiable–so quit trying to justify it by posting blogs as to the credibility of torture or not! Mumbai was terrible and those who suffered and died can tell you that best–if they were able to! Peace and Security and Safety are the rights of all people on this earth and no ne has the right to take such things from anyone–period. STOP attempting to make this into a Jewish, Arab problem becasue it is a problem with ideologies and mindsets of ill and sick misguided people no matter where they may be found or camped out in this world. Parents teach your children to love one another and to love others as God loves us–Hate of any sort is evil and mankind will destroy itself if this doesn’t change. So where do we start? We start with ourselves–first one, then two then more and more and sooner or later the world will be changed.
Kevin :
Indian-Muslim clerics refuse to accept terrorists in their cemeteries
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=4n_CLsozSDw&eurl=http://www.juancole.com/
I admit I too am frustrated because we never hear the moderate voice of Islam at times. It is drowned out by extremists and fundamentalists. We need to allow the rational and moderate voices to speak.
To me the main problem is not so much with the extremist but more with the so called moderate majority.
This majority truly believe that Islam spread out peacefully, that Islam in itself is a religion of peace and moreover that it is the perfect faith.
This is the core belief of the great majority of Muslims not just of the fundamentalist.
The extremist indeed seem to be the ones who are the most frustrated and active about it.
I tend to think that the difference between the extremist and the majority is not so much in the content but rather in the mode of action. Let’s not forget that pretty much until the gruesome acts of Zarkawi all over the Muslim world, no one in this Muslim world seemed to be disturbed by human bombs blowing themselves up in the middle of civilian crowds.
Only when the boomerang came back did we start to hear and read in Muslim newspapers some discomfort about these acts.
@Kevin:
There have been hundreds of statements by Muslims distancing themselves fr. these attacks. Don’t you know how to use Google?
The Muslim community btw has refused the terrorists burial in a Muslim cemetery. A Muslim reader informs me that this isn’t even done for murderers. It’s a huge form of ostracism & denunciation. It’s the equivalent of condemning their souls to hell.
But you wouldn’t acknowledge that would you?
We are so quick to tie every bomb to Al Qaeda that we overlook the geopolitical factors behind each conflict.
India has seen terrorists of ALL religious stripes, from Sikh to Hindu to even Buddhist. So is it really fair to single out Islamic terrorists just because they currently happen to be in the spotlight?
Besides, India’s brand of Islam has historically been more progessive than its Middle Eastern variant. Perhaps because the former takes its cues from Indian (Hindu) culture, while the latter remains steeped in Arab culture.
I would like to comment on the blog from B.Barnavi. He states, “We are so quick to focus on every bomb being from al-Quaeda” and ignore the geopolitical aspects…. Please do not missunderstand B.BarNavi, but with respect, one must realize that in order to carry out a terrorist plot to the level which occurred in Mumbai, it took planning, funding, orgainization, and perhaps, even state sponsorship. This is not possible with many of the smaller terrorist groups–because they simply do not have the resources or possibility to plan to this level. However al-Quaeda does. It is also, well known, that al-Quaeda has and tries to involve every other type of terrorist group it can convince to join its ranks! No one is ignoring the geopolitical aspects, but rather seeing the situation for what it is–al-Quaeda.
Now your beloved NYT takes up the torture story: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/world/asia/05mumbai.html?_r=2&hp
@Alex Stein: I wish to God someone would get this story right. First they were tortured, then not, then they were.
I just hope Pakistan cooperates so they can get everyone behind this filthy operation.
Gitanjali thank you for the link. As you indicated the Muslim Council Trust is an Indian group in Mumbai who I am sure are incensed at what’s been done in their city. Not surprising, though certainly a show of their humanity, so cheers to them. Interestingly phrased condemnation in the clip in saying that since the killers victimized innocents they cannot be Muslims. Unfortunately many clerics disagree with them, evidence of which can also be found through Google- This is one of the biggest issues within Islam. Until the issue of abrogation is fully dealt the situation will not change. It would be refreshing if some of the moderate clerics would condemn the living once in a while too- like the “spiritual” advisors of Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood who think it is perfectly fine to kill Jews and infidels. Richard can you bring that question up at the next ecumenical get together. Unfortunately the moderate voices are likely to be silenced by the fear that they will end up like a Danish doodler or filmmaker if they speak too loudly. Why is it that the loudest questioners come from outside Islam. I think rational people are less concerned with the show of hands reflecting displeasure at what was done after the fact, than the lack of consistent and outspoken criticism by high profile Muslims of their soulless cousins on an ongoing basis. I ask this honest question because I do not know the answer: is there something within the Islamic tradition which makes serious self-criticism and reform difficult or impossible? Can the internal journey of Jihad that moderates describe be focused on the human administration of Islam itself? Some self-searching certainly seems due.
@Kevin:
You simply don’t have a clue about Islam. You know nothing about it as a religion. You clearly don’t know any Muslims. You know what you read in whatever publications or sources you read which imbue you w. ignorance & hate.
Would you care to answer me why no Orthodox rabbis are denouncing the pogrom committed in the name of Judaism by the Hebronistas today? And do I denounce all of Judaism & every Jew because a large group of extremists believe odious things? No. Are these people really Jews? Alas, yes. But they betray all the values I hold dear in being a Jew myself.
And the same with Islam. A handful are psychopathic nutcases. That is no relfection on the religion as a whole. And I have no patience w. people like you who attempt to make the argument that ‘Islam is this’…or ‘Islam is that’…when you don’t know shit from shinola. What legitimate, authoritative book about Islam have you read? None.
I find objectionable your singling out Islam & saying it resists reform. Orthodox versions of all religions resist reform including my own, Judaism. It’s inherent in the nature of Orthodoxy. It’s not a Muslim trait, it’s a human trait.
So knock off the “blame the Muslims” bit or you’ll be history. Check out my comment rules if you really care about what the parameters of discourse are here. You don’t blame Jews and you don’t blame Muslims for the sins of the world. If you do, as I said, you’re history.
“It isn’t really fair to single out Islamic terrorists” – only someone who is ignorant of life in India can say that…
Since 1989, when the honorable Mrs. Bhutto, as Prime Minister of Pakistan, launched terrorism in Indian Kashmir leading to genocide of a quarter million hindus (http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/insight9706.html), on average more than 2000 indians have been slaughtered in India by ISLAMIC terrorists. Thats like a 9/11 EVERY YEAR since 1989!!
Hindus generally have a live-and-let-live attitude, but Pakistan’s terrorist actions have led to some radicalisation among them as well. Pakistan’s CIA – the ISI has openly declared to “bleed India with a thousand cuts” and its state-sponsored terrorism and Pakistan has waged FOUR wars against India in the past 60-odd years.
Imagine:
1. California separated from the Christian-dominated US and became an independent ISLAMIC country
2. Islamic California waged 4 wars against the US after independence
3. Islamic California became a nuclear power and carried out a 9/11 type incident EVERY YEAR for the past TWENTY years without fear of reprisal from the nuclear US with the threat of nuclear war hanging like the sword of Damocles
4. Islamic California wants to annex Arizona, since it is a majority muslim state and has driven Arizonian Christians out of the state by pushing terrorists into Arizona and aided by Arizonian muslims, who carry out slaughter of innocents – torture and rape, leading to exodus of Christians out of Arizona who become refugees in their own country.
In the above – substitute California with Pakistan, US with India, Kashmir with Arizona and the refugees with Arizonian Christians and now… is it fair to single out Islamic terrorism? You tell me, Mr. Barnavi!
In the above simulation, would you also allow the US Chritians to not feel too kindly towards other muslims in the US? Its all very well to shout “racism”, but hey, you’ve got to experience life in India and see what it is to be a Hindu.
Its a tribute to the tolerance of the 80% hindus that there are still 12% (and growing) population of muslims in India with opportunities to the “indian dream” – they have a separate muslim law – allowed to marry as many women they want and divorce them uttering a word 3 times – the top hollywood actor, Shahrukh Khan is a muslim – there have been several muslim presidents – the Indian Cricket team has several muslim players – the Govt subsidizes mulim pilgrimage to Mecca – there is even a affirmative action program for muslims in schools. And some still complain of being marginalized.
“Why is it that the loudest questioners come from outside Islam?”
Kevin I appreciate the change in your tone and I rather you question openly and honestly than denounce any religion. These thoughts are shared by many and we need to address these questions in a correct manner.
First, It’s not just in the Muslim community that the moderate voices are rarely heard. In Mumbai we have aggressive groups like MNS (Maha Navnirman Sena)speaking for the State of Maharshtra but this doesn’t necessarily mean that all Maharashtrians/locals in Mumbai share their views.
Another point is that perhaps the media should be encouraged to cover the Muslim moderate voice more. Perhaps these people are speaking but nobody wants to cover them. I have one such example of someone who asks for reform in Islam
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP143807
Maybe certain people would not agree with his views and find them a bit exaggerated but I still think that we need these voices in every religion. Religion must adapt to time and context.
If anybody can suggest a forum where Kevin can hear moderate voices from within Islam that denounce terrorism and fundamentalism please post a link.
“STOP attempting to make this into a Jewish, Arab problem becasue it is a problem with ideologies and mindsets of ill and sick misguided people no matter where they may be found or camped out in this world.”
Marc47 Thank you for your thoughts on the matter. I wish the debate had ended there.
B”H
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# On December 4th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Richard Silverstein said:
@Alex Stein: I wish to God someone would get this story right. First they were tortured, then not, then they were.
I just hope Pakistan cooperates so they can get everyone behind this filthy operation.
And let’s say they were not tortured just mecifully shot.
The rabbi the pregnant rebbetzin and the Israeli , American and Mexican Jews who were guests in the Chabad house, doesn’t it show you once again that giving away parts of holy land to comply with our more ‘moderate’ foes claims about what we must do according to so called international law cannot bring peace because they and their more extreme comrades (who are really the only ones that matter in the long term as far as security of the Jews and Israel is concerned) couldn’t care less about international law or UN resolutions when they go against their reading of the Quaran so you can G-d forbid give away half the Jerusalem the Golan, the setlements create even more misery unemployment , divorces, crime, etc. among the holy Yiddn who you want to throw out from their land as was done in 2005 ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3076127704169780877&hl=en ) and nothing will improve because the Arabs want the whole Yerushalaim (Al Quids) not just Eastern half they also want Tel Aviv (Kfar Yunis ) and they will continue killing Jews in the Land of israel and worldwide even after they get more land and we are thereby weakened even more economically ,militarily and politically not to mention the morale of the soldiers .
i think one solution would be to quote the Rebbe’s words for those who want to give away land simply pack their bags and leave the country because that is what the ultimate result of their actions entails (at best)…
@Ariel:
Your comment is full of lies and anti-Arab calumny. It is little diff. than the Jew/Israel haters who rant about Jewish/Israeli genocide against the Arab peoples. You’re entitled to yr opinions, benighted as they may be. But the next time you make sweeping racist conclusions about what Arabs believe you will be banned fr. further commenting.
I’d rather have a dialogue of the hearing here, rather than the deaf. And you are deaf.
According to the collected testimony of witnesses including Zaka, not only were the victims brutally tortured, but the toddler’s body was covered with the bruises of a savage beating. Two of the women were bound to a bed, one by one, and executed while the men were in the other room. The bodies were then drug by the surviving men in to where the men were held, where they were covered by talesim. The men were then tied to a wall with their hands above their heads, by telephone cord, tortured and shot. Once they bled out, each man was drug by the next into the room with the bodies until the last was left tied by his wrists to the wall to die. Rabbi Gabriel was the last man to be executed. Rivka was the only exception to this, as she was holding the baby, just beaten after crying. The only break in the killing and beatings came when the police tried to take the building, forcing the terrorists to leave the child with the bodies of the adults. Rivka was then shot to death. Sandra came to rescue the baby during the brief assault on the building as he sat in his mothers life blood.
Oh hey Richard! Long time no see!
So, you deny that arabs (and by that I mean the actual power structures that command “palestinian” terrorism) want the whole Jerusalem? Arafat was very clear about that, and Hamas is marching on in the best of his tradition.
When I was in Munich a couple of month ago, I saw an arab restaurant called “Al Quds” with a big banner depicting the Dome of Rock above its entrance. Are you *sure* arabs don’t want Jerusalem?
@Mike Seth: Are you *sure* Jews don’t want ALL of Jerusalem Arabrein? Sure, there are rogue groups on both sides who want it all & will settle for nothing less. But why do you NEED to see the bad ones only among the Palesitnians w/o being willing to admit your own side harbors elements just as bad? Do the rogue elements control what the majority does? It doesn’t have to, if the moderates & progressives do what’s right. Will you?