14 thoughts on “In Blood, Fire and Hatred Shall Judea Rise – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. Convenient that you dont mention that the demonstration by the extremist jews was in fact a reaction for the murders of their own jewish children at school, by this mans son. The father had set up a mourning tent with Hamass flag flying and had posters everywhere showing his son as a shahid. Who is inciting who? Wouldnt you do the same if it was your son?
    Trying to compare Israels hatred to the Arabs hatred is laughable. One only has to come to Israel and see how the Arabs work and live to prove you are wrong. I myself work with a number of Arabs and like most here, have no hatred to the ones that respect Israels right to exist.The few examples of hatred you pointed out, that was perpetrated  by the evil Extremist jews, is not a common denominator in the Israeli populace. Your comparisons of the hatred is insubstantial, as Arab hatred and acts of violence pre date the State of Israels  creation.
    Am Yisrael Chai
    Jay
     

  2. Many topics are covered in this post. Why calls for Prime Minister Olmert to be killed are occurring at this time is what I wish to comment on – not the manner in which his death is demanded, but the fact that these demands are occurring now. Calls for his resignation are easily understandable: among other things, he has been accused of several criminal acts and he claimed to have a mandate when he had less than a five percent approval rating (which rating would have resulted in the automatic resignation of any upright politician in the world). But why are there now demands for his death?
    I’m pretty sure it is because his government is believed to be involved in negotiations which will result in the giving up of parts of Jerusalem, in portions of Israel generally. You see, it is against the law in Israel to give up territory:
    A person who, with intent that any area be withdrawn from the sovereignty of the State or placed under the sovereignty of a foreign state, commits an act calculated to bring this about, is liable to life imprisonment or the death penalty.
    Israeli Penal Code – 1977, Section 97(b)

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3468715,00.html
    You may not like this law, but it is the law of the land. In times of war, the penalty for such a traitorous act is death. Look at Sderot: Israel is undeniably under attack. Israelis at war. Ergo, If Mr. Olmert is negotiating the withdrawal of territory from under Israeli sovereignty, then he is liable to the death penalty. Those who call for his execution are merely premature – and, in terms of public relations, imprudent – there should be a trial…
    On the other hand, if he and his representatives have no intention of giving up any Israeli territory, Mr. Olmert need not fear for his life at the hands of officers of the court or followers of angry rabbis or right-wing extremists.  Condaleeza Rice and Palestinian negotiators and sympathizers may be upset, but at least Mr. Olmert will be abiding by the basic laws of Israel, and for this, at least, he is to be commended.
     
     
     
     

  3. Yerushalimey – calling for death and calling for someone to be indicted for treason are not things that should be done lightly.  I understand very well why people are saying such things.  The frustrations they are experiencing are terrible.  Nevertheless, it is not a sober, rational thing to call for someones death or to demand a politician be indicted for treason.  It is a terrible embarrasment to have a leader be indicted for treason, regardless of whether or not he deserves it.  It is a social disaster to have people murdered, even assuming they deserve it.  Just look at the nightmare existance of the palestinians.  Once that door is opened it is almost impossible to close it.  And even if you say that this person deserves it, what makes you think that the next guy will show the same judgement in this matter that you show?
     

  4. You know something, Richard, at first, as a Jewish nationalist, I always, like all nationalists everywhere looking at their own people, liked to look at the Jewish people as something special, as something better. However, in your posts, you say two things that are actually contradictory, but in the end, amount to the same thing.  On the one hand, you say the Jews AND the Palestinians are both hate-filled people filled with violent rage killing each other. But, on the other hand, you point out that the Jews are actually WORSE, since you are always pointing out that criticism of the Palestinians for violence or incitement to violence are exaggerated , whereas you feel you have the duty to trumpet to the whole world how despicable the Jews really are, in the name of fairness and honesty, feeling that Jewish terror, rage and hatred are unfairly underreported. (I would suggest that you  stop sounding like a broken record repeating the names “Goldstein, Zada, Amir” over and over as you have been doing in the last few threads. I think mentioning names of the other myriads of Jewish terrorists and assassins would give more variety to your postings and would make your point much clearer about how vile we Jews really are.)  At first, I bridled at this, but now, I find it strangely liberating. I will give an example.  Recently, a court in Jerusalem ruled that restaurants and stores can openly sell hametz on Pesach.  This is offensive to religous Jews and has been against the law, but this is one of what Shulamit Aloni called “a stupid law” that should not be enforced.  Fine.   What should the response of us religious Jews (who, as you have pointed out are THE MOST violent, rage-filled despicable Jews of all, unlike the “progressives”)?  We can look to our brothers-in- rage and poisonous hatred, the Muslims.  What do they do when their religious feelings are offended?  They put out  death sentences on Salman Rushdie and Ayan Hirsi Ali, murdered Theo Van Gogh for his film,  and organized violent riots and lynchings of Christians in the Middle East in the wake of the Danish Muhammed cartoons (those poor Christians who were lynched probably didn’t even know why it was happening). In any event, the Europeans have generally absorbed the lesson and generally avoid offending the Muslims today, in spite of theoretical beliefs in things like “freedom of speech”.
    Now, back to the Hametz in Israel.  What should we religious Jews do about it?….well, Richard, you have provided the answer. We should burn down all the stores that sell Hametz and string up a couple of those who are doing it. I am sure that will have a chilling effect on those who would try it in the future. Who can complain about “freedom”?   Why should these hametz sellers have more freedom than Rushdie and the cartoon drawers in Denmark?  As you have pointed out, religious Jews are violent, hate-filled people no better than those Muslim extremists, and I have shown that this has really paid off for the Muslims, so I think we Jews can learn a lot from the Muslims about how we too can get our own way, in spite of laws and “rights” of others.  I thank you for showing us the way.

  5. In blood and fire the USA was created and in blood and fire were the slaves liberated. Holland was thus liberated from Spain and Europe was thus liberated from Nazi Germany. Libraries were written on this blood and fire thing. Why are you picking on the Jews ? Racism is defined by some as the assigning the failing of humanity, because it is humanity, to one single group: Colored men love blond women ! who does not?. Jews like money ! who does not? Arabs are terrorists ! only they? and Irish ad Vietnamese and Jews? . Jews have bloody legends. true but so so many others! have you ever heard about the Vikings? Have you ever heard the Muslim slogn “Din Muhamaed Bil Saif”. =The law of Muhamad is by the sword. By picking on the Jews and by blaiming them for things that are common to all humanity you are acting like a racist.

  6. the truth is that Israeli Jews know next to nothing about their Arab fellow citizens.
    Let’s look at this from another angle. It’s possible that Israeli Jews know exactly what their fellow Arab citizens are about. Not to mention the Palestinians on the other side of the fence. They just might know something more about what’s going on than a “progressive Jew” living in Seattle.

  7. Convenient that you dont mention that the demonstration by the extremist jews was in fact a reaction for the murders of their own jewish children at school

    Before you make accusations you ought to do a little reading here. I’ve written several posts before this one talking about precisely the terror attack which you claim I haven’t mentioned. The only reason I didn’t specifically mention it here was that I HAVE mentioned it before & assumed readers would know this.

    Wouldnt you do the same if it was your son?

    The community where I live, Seattle, endured a terror attack & the victims & parents of the victims reacted diametrically opposite to the way you appear to think human being would react. They understood immediately that the shooter was mentally disturbed. They understood that he didn’t represent all Muslims. They did not blame all Muslism. They did not use the attack as justification for going on the rampage against Arabs. So no, I wouldn’t do the same & I’m proud to say that my fellow local Jews didn’t either.

    The few examples of hatred you pointed out…is not a common denominator in the Israeli populace. Your comparisons of the hatred is insubstantial, as Arab hatred and acts of violence pre date the State of Israels creation.

    There is a very high level of racism inherent within Israeli Jews as proven by public opinion surveys. Terrorist violence against Palestinians is fueled by these underlying discriminatory views which you’ve only reinforced in yr condescending statement above. Jewish acts of violence against Palestinians also pre-date the State of Israel’s creation. So what does it prove?

    it is against the law in Israel to give up territory:

    @Yerushalimey: It is outrageous that you claim that Olmert’s life is being threatened because he is a criminal under Israeli law. Second, the law that you quote doesn’t apply to this situation because the Occupied Territories are not part of Israel’s sovereign territory. Until Israel annexes them & calls them its own this law is irrelevant.

    Those who call for his execution are merely premature

    I have banned you once & lifted the ban. But I warn you once again that justifying in any way the death of the elected Israeli prime minister (or Palestinian president for that matter) is grounds for banning here. I don’t mess around with incitement. If you want to play with fire you’ll have to publish your views elsewhere.

    you point out that the Jews are actually WORSE

    @ Bar Kochba: More misquotations & misapprehensions of my pt of view. Jews are NOT worse and they are not better. They are human & therefore roughly equivalent in their behavior. The diff. is that Jews have more firepower & can do more damage than Palestinians can do. Believe me, if the Palestinians could kill 130 Jews in a week, most of them civilians while the Jews had no recourse to resist, then I’d be railing against the Palestinians.

    you feel you have the duty to trumpet to the whole world how despicable the Jews really are

    No, I only feel I have a duty to point out to the Israel First crowd that Israelis (NOT “Jews” as you write above–an important distinction which you’ve attemptd to erase) are not white as driven snow. In their propaganda Israeli nationalists like you & them attempt to paint the Palestinians as the devil personified & Israelis as blameless.

    lynchings of Christians in the Middle East in the wake of the Danish Muhammed cartoons (those poor Christians who were lynched probably didn’t even know why it was happening).

    Another lie. There were no “lychings” of Christians in the Middle East in the aftermath of the cartoons. You’ve been reading too much Little Green Footballs. As I recall, a priest was murdered in Turkey but this was a crime committed by extreme Turkish nationalists, not Islamic extremists; & the crime took place in the context of internal Turkish politics & had nothing to do w. the cartoons.

    Europeans have generally absorbed the lesson and generally avoid offending the Muslims today

    Howso? The cartoons have been reprinted numerous times including most recently a month ago or so & prominently republished. Geert Wilders distributed an atrocious piece of anti-Muslim film propaganda in Fitna. Guess what? No Islamic riots. No lychings. What happened to yr picture of evil Islam? Why didn’t they riot? Why didn’t they kill? How inconvenient for yr argument.

    We should burn down all the stores that sell Hametz…I thank you for showing us the way.

    The Danish cartoons insulted the Prophet. Are you claiming that hametz is a concept of equivalent importance to the image of the founder of the Muslim religion?? And btw, there has been plenty of Haredi violence against those who do not share their religious views. Are you forgetting the gay marcher who was stabbed last year? And that’s but one incident. And if you think Haredi thugs (not all are but there are certainly a good number among them) need my encouragement or example to foment violence you’re really losing it.

    Israeli Jews know exactly what their fellow Arab citizens are about.,,They just might know something more about what’s going on than a “progressive Jew” living in Seattle.

    @ Bill Pearlman: How would they? Would they work with them? Play with them? Go to school with them? Pray with them? Shop with them? Study with them? Would they study their literature? Read their newspapers? No, to all those questions w. the possible exception of the last at University. So how would they know anything at all about the “alien other?”

  8. Why are you picking on the Jews ?

    Because I am one and because this blog deals with Jews, Judaism and Jewish history. And because it disturbs me that anyone should build a nation on the blood of others, especially the innocent. Just because this has happened in the past doesn’t mean that I have to go along with it when it’s my own people doing it.

    By picking on the Jews and by blaiming them for things that are common to all humanity you are acting like a racist.

    Mazel tov–you’ve come up w. a new concept: self-racism. It will enter the halls of useless, nonsensical rhetoric along with “Jewish self-hatred.”

  9.  
    “[T]he law that you quote doesn’t apply to this situation because the Occupied Territories are not part of Israel’s sovereign territory. Until Israel annexes them & calls them its own this law is irrelevant.”
    In my comment I specified that parts of Jerusalem were suspected of being negotiated away. I thought Israel annexed Jerusalem in July 1980. Other people seem to think so too.
    http://www.jstor.org/pss/2536188   I daresay that, despite your protestation, the law is very relevant indeed.
    “I don’t mess around with incitement.”
    I’m still having difficulty understanding how you define incitement. I pointed out why I thought others were demanding Olmert’s life. I observed that their demands were premature (I admit I am one of those Israeli citizens who believe he is indeed traitorously attempting to negotiate away parts of Jerusalem – which has been annexed), that there should be a trial. I was demanding that the law of the land  be followed. I don’t see that as incitement.

    I, on the contrary, would suggest that your literary style could fairly described as inciting. Take, for example, the following line from the post from which this thread dangles:
    “posters dripping with blood red lettering”
    Why do you invoke the image of blood dripping if not to incite against the people responsible for the posters? If the color of the lettering on the posters is relevant at all, why couldn’t you be content with describing the ink as red, or bright red, or scarlet, or fiery red?

    I recognize that it is your blog and you have the right to write what you want the way you want, but if you set the tone of your piece by using such inflammatory language isn’t it reasonable to allow opposing voices to follow suit? Not that I think my style was inflammatory; snide, cynical, maybe even supercilious – but not inflammatory or inciting.

     


     
     

  10. Someone can’t be a racist towards his own?  What about an “Uncle Tom”?  This is a well known phenomenon.
     
    -ron

  11. Someone can’t be a racist towards his own? What about an “Uncle Tom”?

    Uncle Tom wasn’t ‘racist toward his own.’ He was obsequeious before white folk & therefore an embarrassment to Black folk. Besides, any way you look at it I’m neither racist nor an Uncle Tomashevsky.

  12. I pointed out why I thought others were demanding Olmert’s life. I observed that their demands were premature (I admit I am one of those Israeli citizens who believe he is indeed traitorously attempting to negotiate away parts of Jerusalem – which has been annexed), that there should be a trial.

    Frankly, I have no interest in WHY you wrote what you wrote or whether you feel it’s justified to explain someone else’s view. I’m only interested in WHAT you wrote & it is simply ASUR here to explain or advocate the execution, assassination or whatever of any elected leader in Israel or Palestine. PERIOD. Do it again & I’ll ban you again. Don’t even try to explain or justify why someone else has advocated this position. I simply won’t have it.

    Why do you invoke the image of blood dripping if not to incite against the people responsible for the posters?

    I have uploaded the actual poster into this post for you & all readers to review. I’ll let everyone decide for themselves whether there was blood on the minds of those who created this poster & this pogrom. If you were fair & honest you’d agree w. me, but I don’t care whether you do or not. This poster is an incitement to a pogrom–plain & simple. I merely point out what I think is obvious. Call it whatever the hell you want, I don’t care.

  13. Uncle Tom wasn’t ‘racist toward his own.’ He was obsequeious before white folk & therefore an embarrassment to Black folk. Besides, any way you look at it I’m neither racist nor an Uncle Tomashevsky.

    First off, I didn’t call you an Uncle Tom, but I can see how what I wrote can be perceived in that fashion. Rather I was taking issue with the concept that one can’t be racist towards ones own. I disagree with much of what you write, but believe me, if I wanted to insult you, I would show you enough respect to be open about it.

    Secondly, I didn’t say “What about Uncle Tom”, I said “What about an Uncle Tom”. That is, the concept of Uncle Tom as opposed to the character from “Uncle Toms cabin”.

    While you would be correct that an Uncle Tom is not the same thing as someone racist towards his own, as per the wiki entry, nevertheless, in common usage it is clear that it has those implications as well.

    -ron

  14. Thanks for clarifying your intent.

    Not sure I fully agree with yr definition of “Uncle Tom.”  Selling out to the white man isn’t the same as being racist toward one’s own.

    But at any rate, I have a problem with the idea that one can hate oneself or one’s own flesh & blood.  Yes, it happens.  There are such examples.  But the term is so often misused that it almost has no meaning through abuse.  And if you want to see such abuse in spades just keep yr eye on the threads here where it happens so regularly I could set my watch by it.

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