As part of its proclamation recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, the Trump administration made a big deal of claiming that the statement didn’t define what the future borders of Israel or Palestine would or should be. This offered the charade that the U.S. wasn’t refusing to recognize East Jerusalem as Palestine’s capital at some vague, undetermined future date; and that we would be open-minded about determining what Palestine’s future borders should be.
In point of fact, media reports have confirmed that the “deal” offered by the Saudis to Mahmoud Abbas when he was summoned to the Crown Prince was for Israel to retain pretty much all the settlements it now controls; while Palestine would consists of portions of Areas A and B. This too is little different from current practice, since Israel controls security in almost the entire area and would essentially continue to do so under the purported U.S.-brokered deal.
In other words, the notion that the U.S. in recognizing Jerusalem as the national capital of Israel hasn’t predetermined an outcome is either a lie or a figment of someone’s imagination.
The article in today’s Haaretz containing an interview with a “senior Trump official” (undoubtedly either Greenblatt or Kushner, possibly the former), in which he says he can’t imagine a future peace deal which wouldn’t designate the Kotel as part of Israel, goes a long way to confirming what I wrote above:
The official said in a press briefing on Pence’s visit that while the final boundaries of sovereignty in Jerusalem should be decided in direct Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, “We note that we cannot imagine Israel would sign a peace agreement that didn’t include the Western Wall.”
The reason this is an especially significant statement is that Israel currently controls both the Kotel and the Haram al Sharif and all of Jerusalem, both east and west. Under the future peace agreement, there supposedly would be a Palestinian state. All previous agreements designated Jerusalem as capitals of both countries. Meaning that east Jerusalem would be Palestine’s capital. In turn, that would mean that east Jerusalem would be under the sovereignty of Palestine. The Kotel is in east Jerusalem. There would be no way to permit Israel to maintain sovereignty over the Kotel if east Jerusalem was Palestinian.
I suppose there might be some way you could designate just the Kotel itself and the surrounding plaza as Israeli territory much like an embassy building is considered sovereign territory of the nation which owns it. But that would mean that Israelis would have access to the Kotel under the sufferance of the Palestinians, who would control the rest of east Jerusalem. I strongly doubt Israel would accept this situation.
Another problem related to this is that those who’ve revealed details about the Trump peace proposal have said Jerusalem would not be part of it in this phase. That means that the Palestinians would agree to accept a country that was little more than a bantustan, with Israel retaining security control over virtually the entirety of Palestine, while the new state would not have its capital in Jerusalem.
So when, if ever, would the Palestinians get their capital? At some undetermined time in the future, depending on their behaving well and dropping to their knees and thanking ‘massas’ Bibi and Trump for their goodness and kindness? I can see this going over exceedingly well with the Palestinian street.
This interview shows, once again, that Trump hasn’t a clue about how to conduct a delicate peace deliberation without alienating a key player in the process. He’s been called out here, and no Palestinian will touch anything he’s offering with a ten-foot pole. And he has no one to blame but himself and his own big mouth.
Trumps Seeks to Offer Saudis Nuclear Technology
OK. So you have the Iranians getting nuclear plants, technology, and uranium enrichment expertise from the Russians. As a result, some fear the Iranians may be using these as components of a nuclear program to develop nuclear weapons. You have these same people warning that if Iran gets nuclear weapons that the Saudis would be next to follow suit thus commencing an arms race throughout the region.
Knowing all these things, and if you believed that they were likely, would you then offer to sell the Saudis advanced nuclear technology and build nuclear power plants for them? Trump apparently would. Keep in mind, that part of this process would involve training the Saudis to enrich uranium to power the reactors, exactly what the Russians have enabled the Iranians to do. Further, there is little stopping the Saudis, once they can enrich the uranium to the necessary 5% to power reactors, from enriching it to the 90% necessary to create nuclear warheads.
In other words, the Trump administration is promoting nuclear proliferation in the Middle East. It wants essentially to start the Saudis on the path to becoming a nuclear-capable state in order to counter Iran’s purported rush to become a nuclear power.
We’ve already done this with the Israelis. Without our support–and the theft by Israeli agents, including Arnon Milchan, of key nuclear technology and materials from our plants–the Israelis themselves could never have developed nuclear weapons (at least not under the expedited timetable which offered them this capability as early as 1967).
What Trump is proposing is not just a terrible idea, it will exponentially increase the possibility of a nuclear war in the Middle East. We already have a nuclear-armed Israel. If the Saudis get WMD, then it will force Iran to do the same. At that point, you will have three nuclear-capable states in the region with another, Pakistan, very close by. Is this really a desirable development in a region prone to be a powder keg even without the inclusion of WMD in the mix?
We all know that the Trump regime is full of bad ideas. And it isn’t afraid of pummeling the American people and the world into submission by not only proposing them, but implementing them. So it comes as no surprise that such a cockamamie idea would be advanced for the Middle East. My only hope is that there will be some members of Congress who will recognize this for the awful idea it is and put a stop to it.
Jerusalem was always left for last as an issue of its own. Much like the right to return. The same way Palestinians would insist on controlling the Temple Mount, so would Israelis about the Kotel.
The timing for all these announcements is stupid if Trump was actually aiming at renewing the peace process.
@ Ginger: “Always” in your comment has no meaning. In most negotiations Jerusalem has played an integral part and never been shunted aside for the indefinite future. And stop trying to avoid the key point which is that with Israel designated as sovereign over Jerusalem by the U.S. and the Palestinians having no sovereignty there, postponing the issue is a way of killing it. YOu know it & I know it. So let’s stop the bullshit, shall we?
The Palestinians have every right to control Haram al Sharif since it is Palestinian territory. If you prefer to make Jerusalem an international city as proposed under the UN partition plan, that would resolve many of these territorial problems. But you won’t go there. So you’ll have to accept a great big problem for Israel is that it may not control the Kotel without some specific agreement with the Palestinians to give it access to it once the city is divided into two capitals.
Unless you prefer one state. That would also resolve many of these issues.
The Palestinians have every right to control Haram al Sharif since it is Palestinian territory.
And Israelis don’t have the same right for the Kotel? What exactly makes it “Palestinian territory”? A ceasefire agreement in 1948 which the Palestinians weren’t even part of?
If you believe Israel would ever give up on the Kotel and you keep preaching for the Palestinians to get it you probably won’t see peace in your lifetime,
@Ginger: one of many problems with you hasbarists is that you misread, deliberately or otherwise, what I wrote. And I hate repeating myself. So don’t make me.
Here are the simple facts: if there is a 2 state solution, West Jerusalem will be Israel’s; East Jerusalem, Palestine’s. The Haram al Sharif & Kotel being in East Jerusalem, it is sovereign Palestinian territory under international understandings. If Israel and the Palestinians want to .internationalize the holy sites to guarantee free access to all religions, that’s a possible compromise. Or if the Palestinians agree to recognize the Kotel & plaza as Israeli, that’s another. But there is no automatic guarantee of Israeli sovereignty over any part of East Jerusalem: another reason Israel should get off its ass & negotiate a territorial compromise.
If you think Israel will ever give up the Kotel and you preach for it then you will never advance peace just keep on delaying it. What is your goal? Justice (which every side claim) ? or peace?
There is nothing ‘holy’ about the 1967 line
@ Ginger: major comment rule. Don’t repeat arguments you’ve already made in a prevuous comnent. Never duplicate yourself. If you do, that’s a sign you should move on. You’ve done that in this comment. And you are done In this thread.
Peace is based on justice. Without justice there is no peace. There is no justice for Pajestine, hence your pals will have no peace. But Israel’s leaders seem to have accepted the fact & are willing to sacrifice 100 dead Isrselis a year or so forever as a cynical price for maintaining this status quo.
Ginger, Israeli’s specialize in terms like ‘eternal’, ‘ever’, and ‘never’. That is silly and presumptuous. You’ve been there only for a very short while, not even as long as the Crusaders. If you want a stable presence there, you will have to compromise and… (oh yes) earn the goodwill of your neighborhood. “Will never accept this… will never accept that” etc. is just not something you are in a position to say.
doomsday scenario:
Palestinians with Turkey or any other country makes a proposal to the Security Council where it is obviously vetoed by the US, Then the same idea is moved over to the General Assembly and with it is included the BDS clause, and here it is adopted with the known abstentions and other bla blas. but it passes making Palestine existence ON PAPER but it FORMALIZES BDS. making it the law of the land for the arab community and giving the eeby jeebys to some other countries who although not in favor the chance to be blackmailed by other arab communities WITH MONEY and therefore slowly giving the BDS true life.
the uS has moved from the “honest broker” (yeah rite) mantra to a zero on the left in the peace project process.
if trump lasts the 4 years more than likely this idea will slowly start
the christian zealots who brought trump with the idea of kissing up to bibi will be the ones to bring down israel in the long term. abbas has already shut down all baby trumps and cohorts notions of being better than their predecessors.
i said few days ago and it is happening. already 176 countries are moving to the general assembly for palestine country. Nicky is saying that TRUMP IS WATCHING who is doing what. big crap, he has almost erased all foreign assistance and ripped all trade agreements so he can go whistle about his threat. it will pass and maybe just if abbas plays it right the bds will be part of it. then what can the dynamic duo (bibi + trump) do. NOTHING. for as much as israel is trying to conquer and split apart african and sub equatorial asian countries by “giving” technologies and fostering investments the bds will be a tool . so what will magic bibi do next.
the kotel decision will be a huge tool against israel
as the chinese say, watch out for what you wish for you may get it. with the bds being the law of the land
hey folks, bid bad trump THREATENING TO DEFUND ANYONE WHO WILL VOTE AGAINST THE U.S.
REALLY. he doesn’t read what he does. i said it before hehas already cutoff all foreign aid and all trade agreement that don’t fit his greed. so big bad wolf is empty barking thru and thru.
doomsday scenario is unfolding. and bibi is happier to hug big bad trump even harder.. laurel and hardy at bestest.. let’s see if bds is not included so i am three for three
What is funny about this is:
The biggest US aid recipients are Afghanistan, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Pakistan.
So go ahead Haley, cut US foreign aid to all of the American clients in the Middle East. –>That will surely increase Trump’s leverage. (I’m actually in favor of it, as we aren’t helping things in the least anyway.)
The only saving grace in Trump is that he is an absolute moron.
big bad trump is waving his money at whoever votes against the u.s. boohoo i said it his government has looted all foreign aid and crashed all foreign trade agreements so what does he have left. zip nada.
let’s hope that what gets voted in the general assembly does not include bds.
otherwise n dayan will be three for three.
bibi is hugging trump even harder on the other side of the comedy
laurel and hardy at bestest.
europe will have no issue with bds part of the new palestine to be voted , perhaps nicaragua, uruguay or the maldives will be great israel backers.
i wanna cry. anyone with brains, pleasse
The Old City plus the holy sites should be international. Somehow. BDS full force, Nessim? Then force the parties to work together.. they can do this at least in the Old City. Set an example. Then maybe the rest becomes easier?
Israel needs to be paying a heavier price for violation of international law and it’s occupation: 50 years of excuses land grabs and settling, the non-starter offerings,propagandized as “generous”, plans that were refused, for a less than a viable state. This is not to say that Palestinians have not had to be brought to realistic expectations. But then have been there already for awhile it seems.
I get so fed up with these holy sites being above the importance of human life, human suffering, human dignity. Fed up with the growing racism. I don’t think people really want this at heart.
I can’t imagine a Trump managed I-P deal…agree Trump can’t be trusted.
You touch here on an issue of paramount importance: nuclear proliferation. This at a time when we should be dialing down, not building more nuclear bombs and their missiles. We are going in a suicidal direction.Trump thinks we can survive and not only that call the shots.. by bullying. Netanyahu loves this mode. If Trump does anything good he will be alarming every sane person in power to act in opposition.
wow , you’re all over the whole place, i focused only on the palestinians getting the bds approved by the general assembly , then the real bds game will be afoot.
i said nothing about places, bombs or anything about that
i said what israel has been demonizing BDS and anyone that even thinks about it will be inscribed and could be used as a shield and a weapon.
the first step of my scenario is about to come true. the Security Council is about to vote on Trump’s stupidity and Pence orthodoxy. what do you think will happen next. gosh does anyone read the script. it’s old, it’s repeat
now that the US is out of the picture, either europe or the UN will take lead on resolving the peace agreement and there is nothing good in it for israel. nothing
;
where did i say nuclear proliferation. actually right now. israel’s nuclear ability is what is giving the iranians and saudis hot heads reason to keep their thumbs tied instead of shooting at each other.
Nessum, you mistake my whole post to be addressed to you. No. Just the first sentence. The rest a response to Richard’s and my attention to Daniel Ellsberg’ s current warnings with Trump’s threats, admittedly tangential to this but relevant I think. Richard mentions the nuclear issue.
So am I to understand that you consider the Jewish Quarter in the Old City to be illegally occupied territory? No different than settlements in the West Bank?
@ Pea: I think the Jews who live in Palestine should be permitted to remain there whether on settlements or in the Old City, as long as Palestinians who lived in Israel before 1948 and were expelled are permitted to return to their homes. Further I’d expect those Jews would also accept Palestinian sovereignty over Palestine. There may be means to grant them some sort of extra-territorial status but only if both sides accept this concept.
I assume that most settlers would probably not accept such conditions and would return to Israel proper. But if they believed as Menachem Froman and his followers did/do that sovereignty doesn’t matter and what DOES matter is upholding Biblical commands to settle the land regardless of which state controls it, then I have no problem with them remaining under those conditions.
But again if there is a one state solution none of this matters as Jews and Palestinians would all be living in the same state and could settle where they wished (as long as their titles to their land were legally obtained).
That was a nifty little attempt at a Gotcha. But it didn’t work I’m afraid.
Richard – your answer in one word is YES. Then comes the explanation. I can’t see why you would hide it. It is a good answer.
What I find curious is this “There may be means to grant them some sort of extra-territorial status but only if both sides accept this concept.” – you pretend the Palestinians will get everything they ask for and then it will be up to them. This is how the world works. Everything is on the table for negotiation and at most the hard subjects are left for the end (like I wrote in my earlier comment) in order to start the process and create trust. היינו כחולמים
[Comment deleted: comments must contain an argument & be substantive. Commenting here dues not involve rooting for one side, keeping score of who’s winning, or offering only your opinion about whether a comment was good or bad. If you have nothing to add to the discussion than that, don’t bother.]
@Ginger: another comnent rule. You don’t ever rell me what i mean or write. You don’t ever interpret my words. My views are in my words, not yours. You never understand or interpret my views correctly because your own are so poisoned.
I never ever said Palestinians would get everything they ask for. No one ever gets everything they ask for in such a negotiation.
In this case, nothing is on the table. Israel has all the cards & gives none away. A recipe for utter disaster, which is the current situation.
You are done In this thread. A new rule just for you: do not publish more than 2 comments in any single thread. If you do, I will consider it a comment rule violation.
There was no gotcha attempt at all. It’s just hard to get my head around the notion that legally, both the Kotel and the Jewish Quarter are sovereign Palestinian territory, that the current residents of the Jewish Quarter are illegal settlers no different than any Israeli living in Ma’ale Adumim or Gush Etzion etc. and that in a future Palestinian State, the Palestinians would be well within their rights to clear out any Israeli from the Jewish Quarter and restrict access to the Kotel any way they see fit. Of course that wouldn’t be ideal. It wouldn’t be the case in a one state solution, it wouldn’t be the case if Jerusalem were somehow internationalized – but barring that, from a strictly legal perspective – what I described above is the case! At least I believe it is.
@Pea: i never said that all settlers are “illegal.” You did. Don’t put words in my mouth & don’t interpret my words or intentions.
Settler status depends on what their plans are and how they obtained their homes. If they stole them, as is so common these days, then of course they are illegal. But if they can prove they obtained their homes legally, or can negotiate a purchase that is legal & acceptable to the authorirues, then i wouldn’t call them illegal.
If they accept Palestinian sovereignty then clearly they would not be illegal. Or If Palestine reaches a deal whereby they may retain some form of Israeli citizenship that would not pose a problem as I see it.
Again, only settlers who refuse Palestinian sovereignty would be “cleared out.” Even that is a misnomer as 85% of settlers would leave voluntarily rather than live under the heel of “Arabs.”
@Richard
” Palestinians who lived in Israel before 1948 and were expelled are permitted to return to their homes.”
Are you referring to original 1948 and 1967 refugees, or, to their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren?
And where exactly are their homes located in Israel? Do they return to their original dwellings, the site of the original village or town? What if there is a new, Jewish, inhabited town built over their old homes? What if their old villages have been levelled? Should Israel rebuild the destroyed village? To what specifications? Homes or apartment buildings?
I’m lost.
@Xionauts: it’s not my job to define or determine the parameters of a future agreement. I’m not a negotiator.
But I would think that if a direct victim of Nakba has died before obtaining justice that the closest living descendant should be entitled to return if they chose to do so.
As the Geneva Initiative has shown, the number who would actually do so in such a case is quite small. But they should have that right.
And yes, Israel should rebuild villages which it destroyed if the former inhabitants chose to return. If there are Israeli buildings which have replaced the original ones returnees should be offered replacement homes equivalent to what was stolen from them. How & what that might be is again not for me to determine.
You are done in this thread.
any property bought by dirty jewish funds no matter the country of origin that was pumped solely for the purpose of ejecting arabs fomented and fermented by the blackmailers in the government is no different than myanmar.
the arab cleansing is what brings about the women cleansing from the plaza or for that matter any other person not being orthodox from the plaza.
i am a jew and i feel disgusted to even bring my feet into that hive’s nest that this the kotel.
to see people spitting on kids or any person for that matter is the worst kind of racism and that racism is what the filthy jewish money that entitled THAT religion to fester in MY COUNTRY
You lost me at “dirty jewish funds…”
“that was pumped solely for the purpose of ejecting arabs” could explain the ‘dirty’ in other than anti-semitic terms but, I don’t know if that is what was meant.
@pea: i.might agree with you, except that it’s hard to define them any other way. Perhaps you could define theme as “dirty Zionist funds.” Ot dirty settler funds. But they’re certainly not dirty Israeli funds. And they are “dirty.” Poison in fact.
So I’m going to allow the term unless you can come up with a better one.
here goes, GOD FORBIDS ANYTHING SAID OR DONE TO POINT THE POLE IN ISRAEL’S EYE. YES NO “JEWISH BILLIONAIRE” THAT FUNDS THE CLEANSING WILL NEVER LIVE IN ORTHODOX MANNER. THE SETTLERS howARE BEING USED FOR THE CLEANSING. THEY THINK THEY ARE THE GREATER ISRAEL. in real they are the “tools” of the CLEANSING.
and anything said to point the truth IS ANTISEMITIC or RACIST.
YOU WANT RACIST. ME A 74 YEAR OLD JEW LIVING IN ISRAEL FOR 20 YEARS GETS ON A BUS AND ASK FOR A ELDER TICKET. WITH DUE CAUSE DRIVER ASKS FOR I.D. TO VALIDATE. I COMPLY, ANOTHER ELDERLY COUPLE GETS ON RIGHT AFTER ME BUT THEN THEY ARE NOT ASKED TO SHOW I.D. the driver invents a lie that I DONT LOOK LIKE A LOCAL JEW. ME A JEW BORN IN EGYPT THAT LIVED THE WORLD OVER IS ASKED TO PROVE THAT I AM A JEW . THAT IS RACISM. AND YOU WANT ME TO SWALLOW YOUR RACISM.
other religions can’t wait for anyone, someone to convert and is received with open arms THE JEWS ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN THOSE WHO THOUGHT ARE THE “PURE RACE” jews ask to use DNA TESTING TO PROVE JEWISHNESS TO BE ACCEPTED. YEAH THE SAME DNA USED TO PROVE CRIMINALS AND MURDERERS USED TO GIVE RIGHT FOR ALIYAH.
trumpism is zip compared to local is nothing but a babe in the wood