42 thoughts on “Israeli Commandos Penetrate Syria, Lebanon; Plant Spy Devices And Murder Civilians – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
task-attention.png
Comments are published at the sole discretion of the owner.
 

  1. Your link to the BtS testimony points at a clear and cut procedure – capture the individual, tie hands and blindfold; if he refuses to walk with the soldiers, tie him to a stretcher. If the target house is to be occupied for a time, put him in the upper floor, and when the force is evacuating, take them with and arrest them for investigation. This is Breaking The Silence, not really known for their softening of words when the IDF is concerned.

    Since “Bravo Two Zero” the issue of patrols compromised by civilians has come up time and again in Hollywood and others’ imaginations.

    So now I appeal to your own imagination: a force is in the field, trying to move undetected and with a precise timetable to meet. Do you think they’ll take their time to fabricate someone’s death (and for the life of me I can ‘t imagine how you solve the problem of throwing someone from a cliff while maintaining their silence while maintaining it “clean” – do they ask nicely “please don’t scream on the way down” ?), or do you think they’ll wait for the opportunity to arise when the compromise is less than certain and only then move again, adapting the mission to the time penalty?

    I don’t know about you, but I prefer not to take my facts out of fictional depictions, be the authors whomever they be.

    1. @ OneIsraeli: No, it doesn’t. As I wrote in the article, this is a censored, bowdlerized version of the procedure. As Odeneheimer writes, there are two options: one you kill the intruder; two, you cancel the operation. When you cancel the operation you still have to detain the intruder & that is likely what the BtS testimony is describing.

      Please stop hasbarizing. It’s unseemly & unpersuasive.

      An Israeli commando force is invading a foreign country with no right to do so. Why? Why does Israel have the right no other country except the U.S., Saudi Arabia, China & Russia have? Why does it have the right to ignore foreign borders? And why does it expect any other country or people to respect Israel’s? Actually, Israel refuses to declare any borders. But that’s another problem.

      If you are going to kill someone, you bind his hands & mouth so he can’t scream. You are far enough away from towns that whatever noise he makes can’t be heard. Even if you don’t stuff his mouth and he does scream it’s likely too far away from the village to be heard. And even if it was, the patrol will be gone by the time an alarm is raised.

      Why are you acting like such a dunderhead? Were you born this way or did Hasbara Central teach you to be this way?

      It is not a “fictional” depiction. It is labeled as fiction because the censor would go lighter on it. It is factual. If you treat it as fiction, you won’t do it here. Unless of course you can prove this description is false. Then of course you may offer real & credible evidence it is. Till then, take your hasbara & shove it.

      1. So now BtS are censored but a novel is reality? And that is called ‘Journalism’?

        Can you give a name of anyone who may have been killed this way? So far you have a ridiculous ‘proof’ of what the procedures are but lack of victims makes this article a ludicrous fantastical conspiracy.

        1. @Shloni: of course BtS is censored. Who offers the testimonies? Do you know their names? No.

          But it’s entirely possible, as I noted, that the testimony is not censored & the soldier described the part of mikreh muzar that involved arresting, but not killing the intruder.

          You apparently are not a student of literature. There are as many types of novels as there are novels. There are novels which are entirely fiction. There are romans a clef which is thinly disguised fiction in which fictional characters stand in for real people. This novel used a fictional veneer which permitted the author to avoid censorship.

          Actually, I’m certain IDF commandos actually register the names,addresses & phone numbers of those they murder. They do this so they may send flowers to the family of the deceased because, well, they’re just that kind of army. Seriously. You can find Odenheimer as easily as I did. If you have questions why don’t you ask him instead of wasting our time here.

          You are now done in this thread. Do not publish again here.

      2. There are a couple of logical problems in your reply.
        First, as Shlomi points out – since when BtS censors itself, and what in their page leads you to think they did this time? There are no such mentions.

        Second, “When you cancel the operation you still have to detain the intruder” – no, you don’t. Unless the intruder actually identifies the force, as long as it is just “a boy sitting in a rock watching the moon” a cancelled operation will either turn back and move or wait for the intruder to go away, then move.

        Third, “Please stop hasbarizing. It’s unseemly & unpersuasive”, I know you have an aversion to people speaking out of their own personal experience, but let’s just say that not everyone that disagrees with your fine points is engaging in hasbara – it might just happen you misunderstood something you have less experience with, no? Btw, on the subject of “unpersuasive”, putting your fingers in your ears and singing la-la-la is hardly a valid dialectic device.

        Fourth: “If you are going to kill someone, you bind his hands & mouth so he can’t scream” – so, to my question, how do you throw someone bound and gagged from a cliff and then make it look like an accident?

        Fifth: “You are far enough away from towns that whatever noise he makes can’t be heard” – how do you decide that? Isn’t it more likely that encounters will happen more frequently closer to population centers than out in the wild? And if the encounter happens so far away from a population center, why go through the bother of fabricating a scenario when you can just as easily knife someone and drop the body into a crevice? Your counter-argument doesn’t hold water.

        Sixth: “Why are you acting like such a dunderhead? ” – disagreeing with your opinion makes me a “dunderhead” ?

        Seventh: ” Unless of course you can prove this description is false.” – can you prove it true? Because the author doesn’t try to pass it as factual (and if this is the only thing int he book that makes you think needs to be censored, then that only reinforces my point). And BtS doesn’t give a rats ass about the censor, so they would be even freer (and willing) to provide factual proof.. Which is more valid than asking people to prove a negative, as you seem to be doing.

        Do you want to censor me for questioning your interpretation of the nature of a fictional text, categorized as such by the author and its marketing, go right ahead. But ask yourself if you’re any better than the censorship mechanism you fight against.

        1. @ OneIsraeli:

          Second, “When you cancel the operation you still have to detain the intruder” – no, you don’t. Unless the intruder actually identifies the force, as long as it is just “a boy sitting in a rock watching the moon” a cancelled operation will either turn back and move or wait for the intruder to go away, then move.

          This is simply not how commmando operations work in enemy territory. Whenever anyone discovers their presence that person must be either eliminated or neutralized so that he poses no threat. Clearly, Odenheimer is talking about an intruder who identifies the force. Otherwise, why would you have to do anything to the intruder?

          how do you throw someone bound and gagged from a cliff and then make it look like an accident?

          I noted in my comment that if the commando force is far enough from any village you don’t have to bind & gag the victim. You could throw him from the cliff & any noise he makes doesn’t jeopardize the force. I’m also sure a commando force can bring with it a drug that might neutralize an intruder so that he may be eliminated quietly. Finally, even if you bound & gagged a victim all you’d need to do is send a soldier to the site where the victim landed & remove the binding.

          you can just as easily knife someone and drop the body into a crevice?

          The whole point of mikreh muzar is to make it appear the victim died naturally of an accident. Stabbling the victim to death is murder & also allows any pathologist to determine the cause of death. That arouses suspicion that it was an IDF commando squad, just the exposure the IDF is trying to avoid.

          if this is the only thing int he book that makes you think needs to be censored, then that only reinforces my point

          The censor reviewed the entire book. Why? Precisely because the censor & publisher knew material in the book was true. THe censor did censor other material in the book. Just not this passage. So you are wrong.

          BtS doesn’t give a rats ass about the censor, so they would be even freer (and willing) to provide factual proof..

          BtS only reports what IDF witnesses tell it. It doesn’t make things up. So if a soldier describes mikreh muzar one way, that’s the only way they can describe it. This soldier didn’t describe the murder part of mikreh muzar either because he didn’t want to admit there was murder involved or because his unit didn’t murder anyone, but instead kidnapped/detained the intruder.

          You are done in this thread. Do not comment further in it.

    2. Jews throws a Christian child down a well, and Israelis throws an innocent Lebanese down a cliff.
      Got it!

      1. Trapper Jon@
        When and where were Jews accused of throwing Christian children down a well? Some back-up please?
        Imaginary historical persecution does not count.

        So ?

  2. It is troubling to see the loads of out right antisemitic comments on your MintPress article. I saw you condemned one picture but what about the rest?

    Looking at older articles of yours, it invited much of the same and by the same commentators.

    Isn’t there anything you can do?

    1. @ Shlomi
      You’re right. I commented once or twice on Richard’s articles on Mint Press, but I realized that the comment section is occupied by a Zionist troll (KilkulOlam) whose sole purpose is to shit on Richard and some genuine antisemitic trolls so I never returned there. Because of your comment here I went back, and left a comment to some Helen4Yemen (who’s clearly an antisemite and takes great effort to misrepresent Richard’s points of view in her comments). My comment is awaiting moderation it says, that’s incredible, because it apparently means that the clearly antisemitic posts and photoshops have been approved by a moderator.
      Richard is not responsible for monitoring the comment section there, but I think the staff at Mint Press should be adressed on this, personally I will try to contact them. As I wrote in my comment there: the Palestinian cause do not need that kind of disgusting trolls who probably don’t even care about Palestinians.

      1. @ Deir Yassin: the editors know my views on this subject. I told them I ‘d prefer comments either be closed for my articles or closely monitored. But I don’t control editorial policy there.

        I suggest you both write to the editor & register yr views.

        Personally, I am certain there are deranged Zio trolls out there who have nothing better to do than create fictitious anti Semitic sock puppets to make the progressive cause look rancid & racist. David Lange and others of this ilk have been known to do this. I wouldn’t bev as the all surprised if that’s happening in this case. It would enable people like Shlomo to come forward and blame me for being associated with &/or agreeing with them, which I don’t.

        1. Yes, I know there’s hasbara trolls out there posing as antisemites, I wrote that to Helen4Yemen in a comment that’s still awaiting moderation. No wonder more and more media close down the comment sections.
          In this case there are three commenters: a guy with Che Guevara as avatar (a genuine antisemite, and the only one who has his profile on discus public, he seems to be a retired American of British origin), Helen4Yemen that’s I come across on Middle East Eye (the profile is private) and some TecumsehUnfaced (private profile).

          I’ve never seen anything like this in any comment section anywhere (it’s even worse than Ynetnews and Times of Israel which at least don’t publish photoshops), and I simply don’t understand how these genuine disgusting antisemitic photoshops get through the moderation, while my two comments are still awaiting moderation.

    2. @Sholimi: Actually, all those anti-Semitic comments were written by me under a pseudonym because, well that’s just the kind of Jew I am. And those I didn’t write myself I thoroughly approved of.

      Are you daft? You think I’m responsible for the nutcases who post comments there? In what universe are you living? Do Haaretz or Jerusalem Post’s editors agree with the racist swill published by Israeli Jews in their comment threads? BTW, pls show me the complaints you’ve filed with Yediot or Maariv about the violent hateful comments posted there by your brethren. If you haven’t then do so befire you shoe us what a hypocrite you are.

      1. Richard – nobody said you wrote those comments or bare full responsibility for them but don’t pretend to not see the difference between those comments to what one may read on ynet or haaretz. Especially when it comes to the quantity and the sort of language used.

        There are 15 comments by ‘tapatio’, 36 by ‘TecumsehUnface’, and 34 by Helen4Yemen. Total 85 out of 132 or about 2/3. And past articles by you got similar treatment from those 3.

        If MintPress doesn’t address your concern, why do you keep on publishing there? Your twitter feed “surrounds hate & forces it to surrender” but your article are used as a vessel to spread hate. You can’t have it both ways.

        1. @The comment section of any Israeli newspaper online is just as bad, except diametrically opposite ideologically. If you don’t know that you either don’t read them or agree with them.

          Why do I care what comments are published at Mint Press? Only in your fevered mind is this a reflection on me. If I object to your comments here should I stop publishing here as well? Your question is absurd.

          Not to mention, that I invite you to find another venue for my work which has a comment section which meets your specifications. I’ll gladly publish there as long as it’s not Arutz Sheva or the like.

          1. [comment deleted: your next comment personally insulting me and lying about my actions and motives will lead to your moderation.]

  3. You are funny , let’s say Israel killed 100 innocent civilians.
    No word about 300k civilians killed by our barbaric neighbors.

    1. @ Shiko: It’s actually not at all funny tf we think Usrael gas killed 40,000 Palestinians, Lebanese, etc since 1948, many of them innocent civilians. I’d focus on those rather than civilians killed in other lands.

  4. Mr Silverstein:
    1. A novel is a novel; It is fiction; nothing more, nothing less. The trait of a good author is being able to make fiction sound like fact. It seems that Mr. Odenheimer has done a good job, at least where you are concerned. Please do not feed us his story line as a true story. Because it is not. His background has no bearing on a fictional novel.
    2. I find it strange how you can sit comfortably in your USA home, being so critical of people defending themselves from enemies trying to destroy them. I would be most happy to view your comments on Hamas and Hizbullah, and attempts to prevent their further attacks on Israel, following your three years of residency in Kiryat Shemona, or Sderot.
    What do you say?

    1. @ George Habas: That is absolutely false. I interviewed Odenheimer. I spoke with him about this incident and it clearly is factual. I will no longer entertain any commenters who regurgitate the same stupid argument that because the incident is recounted in a novel it can’t be factual. This is an absolutely stupid, coarse analysis of novels & literature.

      So because Catch 22 was a novel does that mean that nothing described in it actually happened to Joseph Heller, the U.S. serviceman who wrote the novel based on his personal wartime experiences? Because Mark Twain wrote novels that means that none of the experiences he describes in them on the Mississippi River, where he worked as a riverboat captain, could be actual experiences he really had? There are literally thousands if not tens of thousands of novels in which novelists recount real experiences that happened to them & do so precisely and accurately as they actually happened. NOvelists choose to tell their stories as they do for myriad reasons. But those novelists who recount their own personal experiences may not be disbelieved simply because it’s written in novel form.

      Stop asking me to comment on things I’ve commented on many times before. Use Google and find what you claim you’re looking for.

      Again, if you wish to prove Odenheimer’s description of mikreh muzar as false, do so with credible evidence. If you don’t, then stop nattering.

      1. Mr. Silverstein:

        Your incredible anger prevented you from replying to the second question I asked:

        2. I find it strange how you can sit comfortably in your USA home, being so critical of people defending themselves from enemies trying to destroy them. I would be most happy to view your comments on Hamas and Hizbullah, and attempts to prevent their further attacks on Israel, following your three years of residency in Kiryat Shemona, or Sderot.

        1. Maybe he didn’t answer because hundreds of hasbara trolls (internal joke here: a new plane – or maybe drone would be better – arriving from Ben Gourion) have written exactly the same thing before you.

        2. @George Habash: I did respond to your question. I told you to use Google to find the many examples of statements I’ve made on these subjects. Read my comments carefully & do not make me repeat myself due to your own sloppiness or laziness.

        3. @george Habash: I’ll spend 3 yrs living in Sderot after you spend 3 yrs living under the guns in Gaza. I’ll even start a Kickstarter campaign to fund your sojourn.

          The only problem is you’ll be dead after your stay there & I’ll be quite alive. So it won’t be a fair comparison.

      2. @Richard – “I interviewed Odenheimer” – That is new information you haven’t revealed before. Did you by mistake exposed a source?

        If you present the information as one that came from him in an interview, it may be credible, though it is unclear why won’t he send it to BtS as well. The way presented in the article “oh, I read a great book with great description about IDF soldiers killing civilians” – is that credible? Please don’t make me laugh.

  5. So let me see if i understand this corrctly.. Anybody who disagrees with richard is a hasbarah troll sponsored by the israeli goverment? And anybody who disagrees with richard gets banned?

    Makes you wonder why comments are even allowed. I think richard just wants the comments of people who take his worldview about the evil israelis

    I don’t agree with the Palestinian viewpoint, but at least I don’t see as many self hating Palestinians , as i do self hating jews.

  6. If by “self-hating” you mean “opposed to Zionism, Israel, and its crimes”, then I know lots of “self-hating Jews” and I am proud to number myself among them. Nearly half of the Jews I have known in my life are opposed to Zionism and Israel. Some of them are actively opposed; others are sensitive enough to be wary of anything “Zionist.” Slowly, the truth about Zionism, about Israel and its archaic ideologies, e.g. racism and supremacy, is getting through to the Jewish American community and I expect there will be a sizable minority in open rebellion against the many Jewish organizations which have only adopted Zionism in order to extend their bureaucratic lives and raise money. Jewish Voice for Peace and J Street are just scratching the surface of American Jewish discontent with Zionism and its absurd lies.

    The days of Jewish consensus regarding Israel are long past and the debate is opening up (witness the efforts to contain it!) Once open, there will be increasing numbers of “self-hating” Jews jumping the Zionist flagship. Open debate is the ruin of Zionism in the US and Europe. That’ll leave a prickly and hostile, over-armed, racist state in the ME which virtually nobody likes or cares about except a handful of billionaires who can have the fun of “running a country.” and a bunch of armed settlers, beholden to them, sitting around their swimming pools in the midst of hundreds of millions of pissed off Arabs. Sounds a lot like White South Africa, doesn’t it?

    1. Interesting that you call yourself David. After all, Israel’s Zionist leader and hero is David ben Gurion, who led the fight for Israeli independence.
      But seriously, your attitude, and admitance of Jewish/Israel self-hatred, with your despise for the State of Israel only proves that you have yet to learn the lessons of history. You are, unfortunately, leading yourself down a dead-end road of no return. I sincerely hope and pray that you realize your grave errors before it is too late.
      This may sound rather strange, but so too did the warnings given to Jews in Europe to leave their homes as fast as possible in the 1930s and early 1940s. Most of them didn’t. And the price was more than anyone could have possibly imagined.

      1. @ George Habash: David didn’t admit to what you claim. He said that if your definition of self hate was supporting the evils (he perceived) of Zionism, then you could call him that. But of course there is no legitimate definition of Jewish identity which is confined to such terms. So his alleged “admission” of self-hate was a rhetorical device which you seem to construe as an admission of criminal intent. It’s not. But it does confirm your own obsession with the subject and finding bad Jews under every bed & self-hate in the hearts of such bad Jews. This trope bores the shit out of me. So I warn you that if you continue down this road you will not be long for this blog’s world.

        The only “dead end road of no return” is Likudist ultra-nationalism and Jewish supremacism which you and your pals walk every day. The sad part is you don’t know the price you & Israel will pay for your racism & myopia.

    2. David – though I deeply in disagreement with you, I at least appreciate coming out and saying your opinion out loud. I hate it when people hide behind ambiguity. I disagree with the way you dissect history, and even more so, with your conclusions but at least then you stand up and say your opinion out loud.

      Richard simply takes term he dislike, empty them from any of the original meaning, then load them up with as much liberal values as his pen allow him and put the word progressive in the front.
      Believing that any human being has an equal right to sovereignty in ‘Zion’ (some even more than Jews) has nothing to do with Zionism, unless you are hiking in Utah of course.
      And ‘supporter of ISrael’??? Can you please explain that sentence? I know that חוסך שבטו שונא בנו, but I’m pretty sure even the rabbis gave a good word when it was deserved. Can’t remember one instance when Richard just gave praise for the smallest thing, without pooping all over it right after. So much for support!

  7. 
@George Haabas

    wrote:


    “Interesting that you call yourself David. After all, Israel’s Zionist leader and hero is David ben Gurion, who led the fight for Israeli independence.
    But seriously, your attitude, and admitance of Jewish/Israel self-hatred, with your despise for the State of Israel only proves that you have yet to learn the lessons of history”

    Ben Gurion was, in fact, against the occupation because he had a somewhat keener sense of history than you display here. Rabbi Arthur Hertzberg, then a former President of the American Jewish Congress and a Vice President of the World Jewish Congress, recalled more than twenty five years ago, in the columns of the New York Review of Books, how he heard the Old Man speak immediately after the victory of 1967 when even the doves among the literati had turned into hawks:

    “Less than a month after the Six Day War, at the beginning of July 1967, I heard David Ben-Gurion speak at Beit Berl, the “think tank” of the Israeli Labor party…

    The Ben-Gurion who walked into the meeting had about him the air of a prophet who had walked out of his tent to die, but had paused on this last journey to tell us truths which the less farsighted could not see and which only a man possessed by the spirit would dare tell. He warned his listeners against the euphoria that had swept the Jewish world in the aftermath of the Six Day War. Ben-Gurion insisted that all of the territories that had been captured had to be given back, very quickly, for holding on to them would distort, and might ultimately destroy, the Jewish state.

    Now, twenty years after the heroics of June 1967, Ben-Gurion’s speech at Beit Berl, his wrathful cry that the most glorious of Israel’s victories could turn out to be even more poisonous than defeat, has become my most vivid memory of Israel in 1967, when, along with hundreds of thousands of others, I visited the West Bank for the first time, drove freely through the Sinai, and even brought home as a souvenir from the Golan Heights a plate of instructions in Russian from the wreck of a Syrian tank. I am more and more persuaded that the old man I heard that night twenty years ago was more prophet than angry octogenarian. …”

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1987/05/28/israel-the-tragedy-of-victory/“

  8. So after all the huff and puff let’s have some actual journalism here.

    Can or can’t you come up with names of those alleged victims? Cases where there was a suspicion?

    How do you even write this w/o any shred of such information?

    1. @ Shlomi: No Shloime, not the way it works. I have a Maglan IDF veteran who participated in mikreh muzar, witnessed incidents in which foreign civilians were murdered & wrote about it. That’s a perfectly credible source. You have nothing. So I challenge you to disprove his claims. If you can’t, shut up.

      If you publish another comment in this thread which doesn’t offer such credible direct evidence that Odenheimer is wrong, I will moderate you.

      1. [comment deleted: you’re regurgitating arguments already offered here by others who I told not to post in this thread again. You are skating right on the edge of moderation.]

      2. Just one question where you haven’t been clear, have you interviewed Odenheimer or not? Before you wrote you did, now you say you read his book. Which one is it?

  9. Sorry to interrupt the hot debate, but can someone please explain to me how Kfar Shmaryahu was built on the ruins of the Nakba, or to be more accurate: ““The Arabs of Kfar Shmaryahu [those who lived in this wealthy suburb were expelled during the Nakba]…” ?
    Because as far as I know (and please correct me if I am wrong) Kfar Shmaryahu was established in 1937, on lands that were bought from the locals (Arabs).
    Now, I am aware of the claims that some lands which belonged to the Arab village of “Al Haram” were confiscated and given to Kfar Shmaryahu, but if you look at the map, you can clearly see that the center of that village – the Sidne Ali mosque – is few kilometers away from Kfar Shmaryahu, and the size of the village (according to Arab testimony) was less than 1,100 acres, so the numbers doesn’t add to anything logical.
    Last (but not least) there were Arabs in Al Haram that decided to leave the place in 1948, but not on Kfar Shmaryahu’s land.
    And why should we care if it is Kfar Shmaryahu or Herzliya? after all an occupation is an occupation, right? Well, yes, but facts should be facts, and I think that debates should be based on facts and not on rumors.

    1. @ some1whowaswhere? First, I have no idea where your alleged historical claims come from. Second, read the post I wrote about Amitai Etzioni, Kfar Shmaryahu & Sidne Ali (aka Sidney Alley!). If your comment was on this post then publish your comment there. Third, I assure you based on the research in that post that the Palestinian villagers were violently expelled from the entire area by Lehi, who summarily executed several villagers for allegedly betraying then to the British. Fifth, I have no stomach for historical niggling over which Palestinians were expelled, which weren’t, which were invited politely to leave etc. If that’s your thing, don’t bother.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *