105 thoughts on “Netanyahu’s Facebook Page Replete With Racism, Islamophobia – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. Correction #!oh dear – I am bad typist, and tired…
    CORRECTION #1. Netanyahu’s NEPHEW ‘ACKNOWLEDGES THAT APARTHEID EXISTS and refuses military service …
    obviously, not Netanyahu

    1. There are two political inclinations within Sara Netanyahu’s family (the Ben Artzis). One is Revisionist and one left-wing, even anti-Zionist. Yonatan Ben Artzi’s family are the latter & Yonatan, who’s studying for a PhD in Mathematics at Brown, was a long-term military refuser.

  2. I agree with what you say, almost. I have no argument with the thrust of your argument. My objections are at the edges. For example, I object to your referring to Netanyahu’s father as a Jewish historian. Would you refer to Hugh Trevor-Roper as an Anglican historian? or as a Catholic or Presbyterian historian? I suspect not. Because his religion may be Jewish does that mean he is to be categorized as a Jewish historian as opposed to, say, an historian of Jewish history? And you Richard, who, I believe, live in the USA, refer to yourself as ‘we Israelis’. Were you counting the Arab and non-Jewish citizens of Israel in that description? I personally do not believe that people, whether their religion be Jewish or Protestant or Orthodox, who live in the USA should refer to themselves as Israelis but I know that flies in the face of the fiction of the Jewish race.

    1. @Blabbaer:

      you Richard, who, I believe, live in the USA, refer to yourself as ‘we Israelis’

      That is not true. I have deliberately never used such an articulation. There may be times when I’ve spoken in the voice of an Israeli whose ideas I was characterizing. But I’ve never referred specifically to myself as Israeli or used the term “we.”

      CORRECTION: I see that I did inadvertently use the term “we” in referring to Israelis. It was a Freudian slip, but I suppose a telling one. THough I should note that the entire purpose of the phrase “We are no better than anyone else, nor worse,” was not meant in a triumphalist way. All I can say is that I am a Jew and many Israelis are Jews and I have a certain affinity with them (along with great criticism, as any reader will realize).

    2. @ Blabber… I guess since Israel insists on being a Jewish state, then Israelis must be Jewish. Just as Americans are American and British are British. Can’t have it both ways. Hugh Trevor-Roper would be British, because in a real democracy one’s nationality isn’t identified by one’s religion. Only in Israel.

      1. Untrue. Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens with full rights as Israeli citizens They carry Israeli passports.
        As for Israel calling itself “the Jewish State”…the full name of Egypt is “The Arab Republic of Egypt” and the full name of Syria is “the Syrian Arab Republic”. Syrian Kurds are not Arabs but they live in Syria.
        The first clause in the Palestinian Constitution says the Palestinians are an integral part of the Arab natioi
        Also all the Arab countries with the exception of Lebanon, but also including the Palestinians proclaim Islam as
        the state religion Israel has no “state religion…each religious group’s personal status is defined by that religion.

        1. @Bar Kochba:

          the full name of Egypt is “The Arab Republic of Egypt”

          Do you understand that the word “Arab” is not a religious term, but an ethnic one? You don’t seem to.

          A Jewish state is a state where religion predominates in determining status & many other matters.

          1. First of all, “Jews” are both a people-nation and a religion.
            Pakistan was created as Musllim state . Mohammed Ali Jinnah kept insisting that the Muslims of India were a nation-people, just like the Jews, and the British and the world accepted this. There is a “Conference of Islamic Nations” (there is no corresponding “Conference of Christian Nations”) When the Arab states define Islam as the state religion, that binds nationality and religion. This leads to discrimination against Non-Muslims because Muslim women can not marry non-Muslim men and it is against the law to convert from Islam to another religion. Israel has no such laws, so the attempt to point out the Israel is “uniquely evil” in defining itself as a Jewish state.

          2. @Bar Kochba: God, please don’t repeat comments of others. MarkyMark, another resident hasbarist, published virtually the same comment with almost identical content. Do you guys go to Hasbara School where you learn to dredge up this crap? I’ve already answered his comment & my answer holds true for yours as well.

            As for the Islamic COnference of Nations (which you didn’t name accurately), there is a World Jewish Congress as well just as Herzl declared his goal of founding a Jewish state at a World Zionist Congress. There is a Jewish AGency, which claims falsely to represent the interests of Israel and world Jewry.

            When the Arab states define Islam as the state religion

            Arab states don’t define Islam as a state religion. Some do (though they don’t actually implement that sentiment), some don’t. If we had different Jewish states in which some defined the State as bound by Judaism and some didn’t, then your argument would be more accurate. But we only have one state which defines itself as Jewish, which offers Jewish citizens superior rights. So we don’t reflect the diversity found in the Arab or Muslim world at all.

            Muslim women can not marry non-Muslim men

            That’s also false, because in many Arab countries precisely this happens. Just how much do you know about Arabs or Islam? About as much as fits into a thimble, I’d say.

            the attempt to point out the Israel is “uniquely evil”

            What a dumb, insulting lie. Whoever said Israel is uniquely evil? You’ll point out where I ever said such a thing. If you can’t then I’ll be banning you. I’ve give you 12 hours to do so before the banning goes into effect. I do not accept fabricated quotes or such calumnies.

          3. “published virtually the same comment with almost identical content”

            That’s because multiple people can know the same facts!!!

          4. Actually Richard, Islam IS the official religion of most Arab countries, and is inscribed in their constitutions just like the Arab ethnicity is. Saudi Arabia has the Muslim shma on its flag…with a sword!!! BTW, the fact that Thompson ends any comment with “only in Israel” should tell you something about her biases…she’s a hasbarista as well it seems.

            Lastly, the Jews aren’t defined solely by religion, but are also an ethnic group as well, and a nation. The idea that the Jews are just a religion is a claim made only in the modern period, especially the early German reformers.

          5. @MarkyMark: What do constitutions mean in any of the countries you mention? Do they have any bearing on anything that actually happens in the country itself?

            Further, because an Arab country may have a sentence in a document that has no reference to the actual running of the country, means it’s OK for Israeli ultra-Orthodox rabbis to run Israel & for it to declare itself a Jewish state? In that case, let’s enshrine halacha as the determining legal framework for the country and legalize polygamy, shotnase, Jubilee & Shmita years, and stoning as a means of execution including for homosexuality and incest.

            I’ve known Mary for a lot longer than you and she’s a lot more credible than you are.

            The term “Jews” does not refer to ethnicity nor nationhood. It is a religious term. If you’re referring to a nation, that nation is Israel and it is a nation composed of Jews & non-Jews who should have an equal determination in the fate of the country. If they don’t, then Israel will be a failed state until they do. Or until it expels them, at which point it will also become a failed state. As for “Jews” as an ethnicity, since this terms is wrapped up in genetic obscurity, I frankly don’t know what the term means.

          6. Sharia is the main source of legislation for virtually all Arab countries. Ultra-orthodox are a faction of Jews, why should their interpretation of halacha be correct? (it’s not) so that point is irrelevant. And Jews is not solely a religious term. The Jews are a people, Am Israel, the nation of Israel. The Jews have taken on an additional religious dimension in the Roman period, while still preserving its older ethnic and national dimensions. See Shaye Cohen “Beginning of Jewishness”. The Jews are a people, not a religion, though they are also a people united by a common religion as well. Jewish identity is multi-faceted, and for you to say that it is a religious term is simply not correct. No encyclopedia, or scholarly work, will define Jews that way.

      2. @Mary Hughes-Thompson “in a real democracy one’s nationality isn’t identified by one’s religion. Only in Israel.”

        You see, this is the problem – the refusal to recognize the existence of the Jewish People, as a nation. Being a Jew is NOT merely to be a subscriber to a particular religion. The denial of the existence of the Jewish nation, while insisting (with far less basis) that there is a Palestinian Arab people, is to deny to the Jewish people what you are ready to grant to the Palestinians. I call that hypocrisy.

        1. @Nikki: Israel is a nation. The concept of the Jewish people as a nation is not relevant in this day and age when we have Israel. On the other hand the concept of Jews as a “people” with shared ethnicity, traditions, etc. remains relevant. And Israel is not a Jewish state. It is a state that comprises Jews along with non-Jews. But Jews do not own Israel because Israel is larger than any one religion or ethnic group within it. That doesn’t mean that these religions won’t be honored & respected. It just means that no religion has primacy over any other nor over the state itself.

  3. לא נניף את ידינו על אחינו “We will not raise our hands against our brothers…..”
    Never say never Bibi! are we not also capable of every evil …..and the very fact that he feels the need to say it speaks for itself.

  4. I think plenty rubbed off from the old man to Netanyahu fils. If anything, the elder Netanyahu, historian or not, was an even more appalling racist than his son.

  5. I looked over that FB message a couple of times. I didn’t see the word “Muslim” or “Islam” anywhere. As a matter of fact there is NO mention of religion anywhere (except in your comments).

    Make whatever implications you want, I don’t see a tirad against Islam, but more a comment about how little care or respect Assad’s government has for human life. The number of deaths are staggering. Truly brother (Syrian brother) IS murdering brother. It is a heartless and cruel situation going on in Syria. It isn’t an indication of Islam, but an indication of a morally corrupt government and a society crumbling under this civil protest.

    And no, I don’t think Israel is like Syira, nor like other regimes in this area. Israel does have protests, civil issues and unrest (on a smaller scale) at times, with issues to resolve. But the process does not and I don’t think will ever be handled in the same manner like what is going on in Syria. They are nowhere NEAR the same society or government.

    You’ve taken a big leap to associate it with Netanyahu berating Islam. Then you go off and start quoting Biblical acts as if they were happening today. You, who usually keep religion out of this political arena have opened that door.

    You go back and quote the Tanach and specific times of action took place. Then you go on to mark point specific incidents and associate them with Judaism?? They were political motivations (NOT claiming they were good, right or just). If you show me context where they were screaming/claiming “In the name of Judasim” please post it.

    Now you want to start taking issue with history and what religious fanatics have been doing RECENTLY…. take an umpleasant look at what has been happening in the world in the “name” of Islam. I don’t associate these fanatics with, what I hope, is main-stream Islamic teaching and religion, but they are out there.

    Their acts of murder and terrorism promote Islamaphobia. How do you expect somebody to read these accounts, like the fanatic who be-heads a soldier in Britian and NOT begin to develop a fear/distrust of Islam?

    I mean, if you can make a claim, or think that a sicko like Jack Teitel represents ALL (or even a majority of) “settlers” or American immigrants to Israel etc,( which you basically did in a post awhile back, going so far as to apologize for Americans who made Aliyah), well then people may certainly draw the same conclusion about these “Islamic” terrorists and how they represent ALL of Islam.

    I love it when people comment here and clump every “Settler” into the same archi-type “fantatic gun-totting” killer. Why shouldn’t I do the same thing everytime I read about a “Palestinian” who blows him/herself up, murders an Israeli civilian? Why don’t I… because I know people are individuals and they are responsilbe for their own acts. To assume that because someone lives in a particular location, that defines all he/she is, is as ignorant as saying every Italian likes pizza!

    1. @ davidL, took the words out of my mouth. be ready to be name called or just nicknamed with some twist of the word hasbara.

    2. @DavidL:

      if you can make a claim, or think that a sicko like Jack Teitel represents ALL (or even a majority of) “settlers” or American immigrants to Israel etc,( which you basically did in a post awhile back, going so far as to apologize for Americans who made Aliyah), well then people may certainly draw the same conclusion about these “Islamic” terrorists and how they represent ALL of Islam.

      No, you can’t. Because the Woolwich terrorists don’t have MPs representing them in the British parliament, while Jack Teitel does. You know as well as I that while MKs may not support the specific acts of which Teitel is guilty, that there are broad swaths not just of the settler community, but of Israeli Jews themselves who, even if they think Teitel went too far perhaps, support the general notions of what he believes. Just as there are many settlers and rabbis who inspired and supported Yigal Amir’s assassination.

      You know as well as I that there are extremist MKs who have publicly voiced support for violent acts against Israeli Palestinians. I haven’t heard of any U.S. politicians who’s supported the terror acts of people like Nidal Hassan.

      Settler terrorists are far more than individual criminals. They represent a large swath of opinion within that community. They have MKs who support them. They have Israeli NGOs which support them.

      BTW, Palestinians haven’t “blown themselves up” in a long time. Get with the program why don’t you. Or are you so desperate for ammunition for your ideological viewpoint that you need to draw on incidents that happened years ago and treat them as if they happened yesterday??

      1. @ Richard,
        well it’s all about perspective i guess since hanin zuabi was on the Marmara breaking israeli law (and your view whether the op was legal or not or the siege is illegal or not is irrelevant since she’s a member of israeli parlament and she should follow israeli law) and met with hamas officials which is a terror regim by israeli law. ahmed tibi who publicly supported shahids in a speech he gave. azmi beshara was accused of treason and fled israel (btw there were reports a few yrs ago that he was still receiving pension funds for being mk …. stupid bureaucracy).
        we’ve got all sorts of mks . all extreme views pushing israeli democracy to the limit in term of freedom of speech and mks diplomatic immunity.

        about the blowing up part, the reason it’s not happening any more isn’t lack of motivation. the militants realised it’s more productive to kidnap and negotiate prisoners swaps. last year there were dozens of kidnapp attempts, luckily failed ones (and not only against soldiers). so thanks for not exploding any more i feel much safer.

        1. @Noam:

          hanin zuabi was on the Marmara breaking israeli law

          Nonsense, she didn’t break any law, Israeli or otherwise, except in the eyes of the ultra-nationlist MKs who demonized her. Mazel tov for being in league with those rats & thugs like Anastassia Michaeli.

          hamas officials which is a terror regim by israeli law.

          Don’t be ridiculous. Israeli law is no more correct on this or many other issues than the Shulchan Aruch, which dictates that couples have sex via holes in a sheet.

          azmi beshara was accused of treason

          False as well. He wasn’t formally accused of anything. He was dragged through the mud by Shabak anonymous sources who accused him of moneylaundering without offering any proof. So what you’re doing now is not only spreading false information, but doing so on behalf of God knows whatever hasbara inspired motive you might have. You’re on the cusp of being moderated (again). Watch your step. Only facts and only evidence. Baseless claims are forbidden. Understand?

          about the blowing up part, the reason it’s not happening any more isn’t lack of motivation.

          This claim too is false. Numerous Palestinian polls show there’s no support for suicide bombings among Palestinians. Contrary to your ignorant beliefs about Palestinians, their political and militant groups, just like Israeli ones, reflect popular opinion and adjust to it.

          1. @ Richard, you are right she was only ‘ABOUT’ to break israeli law until the IDF took over the ship.

            “Don’t be ridiculous. Israeli law is no more correct on this or many other issues than the Shulchan Aruch, which dictates that couples have sex via holes in a sheet.”

            your view of israeli law is irrelevant here. it’s not you who were sworn into israeli parlament – zuabi did.

            azami beshara was accused of visiting enemy states at time of war and of revealing strategic location to hezbullah AND laundering money (why you chose to mention solely the laundering of money is beyond me). after visiting syria and speaking against israel he was trialled and banned from the knesset but after an appeal to the supreme court they overturned the ruling (who said democracy didn’t exist in israel). that’s in a nutshell you can read it online. about proof, he fled before being formally accused in between questioning sessions – as you said about the drone fleet grounding – “it is a fact that I believe supports my claim”.

            about the last part. from 7000 km away you can’t see shit. i don’t blame you. most of the kidnapping attempts fail either upon execution or before hand so they don’t get any media attention. if you were here, and did some time in the wb you’d know. every time i get drafted to my reserve service there’s a new cell trying to pull it off. i don’t need the polls, they are statistics that can be widely manipulated – it depends how you ask the questions and who you target them too etc. i see the work done on the ground.

            “@MarkyMark: No, it’s because hasbarists either think alike, in b&w terms, or else you’re taking the same classes at Hasbara U.!”
            you wrote it after you commented on my comment. it’s kind of surprising you say hasbaristas are seeing b&w while you were proven of doing the same thing in latest syrian thread and you even commented on my comment in an earlier thread that the conflict is b&w:

            “Actually, there aren’t really two sides to the story and things are pretty much black & white. THere’s only one truth, not two. And that truth isn’t grey, but pretty much black & white. You can make it confusing & complicated & morally ambiguous all you like. That will only obfuscate what must be done & eventually will be done whether you like it or not.”

          2. @Noam: I have no idea what you’re trying to claim–that she was ABOUT to commit a crime? What does this even mean? Not to mention that prosecuting someone for being about to commit a crime (as the Knesset did when it punished her) is a violation of any sense of democratic values.

            You’ve once again misspoken regarding Bishara. He was “accused” by anonymous sources in the pages of a newspaper. That isn’t probitive of anything. It’s meaningless. But he was driven into exile by Israel’s security state for which you may justly be proud. YOu seem to have convicted him based on anonymous charges. I find you attitude on this matter deeply offensive.

            he was trialled and banned from the knesset

            This is absolutely false. He wasn’t tried. He wasn’t banned. I think you may mean that the elections committee ruled that he couldn’t run for Knesset. If so, it makes such rulings regularly and they’re just as regularlyl overturned. Again, that’s not probitive of anything other than the racism of committee members.

            i don’t need the polls,

            Of course you don’t need polls. You feel perfectly comfortable relying on your own racist anecdotal experience. Makes sense to me.

            i see the work done on the ground.

            Another meaningless claim. What are you? A pollster? Demographer? Or liar?

          3. @ Richard, i’m sorry for not having these Haaretz articles in english, if you can’t read them i’ll try harder.
            the first one is after the details of the investigation were published describing he’s actions and flee (or driven to exile…please..):
            http://www.haaretz.co.il/misc/1.1406511
            this one is about the money laundering. the conviction of bishara middle man whom he was using:
            http://www.haaretz.co.il/misc/1.1468382

            i don’t know how else to prove it to you. it’s easier i guess to shout conspiracy than to face the truth.

            and it’s mighty rich of you accusing me of lying from seattle. if you trust the polls, what do you make of the one bob mann mentioned? is 40% a statistical error? weren’t you the one who made the “inspiration from the psychopathology of society” connection? the people we’ve arrested or read about their involvement in terror cells in the intel reports are real. i saw them, they are not some name i read in the internet or some source told me about. so i think my view is a slight more accurate in this situation than yours.
            and racist?? please! i have never made the assumption that all palestinians are terrorists. i just said that the militants haven’t been de-motivated. they are just better controlled by the IDF, by Abu mazen’s forces and by the wall where it exist.

          4. @Noam: You claimed he was convicted and ejected from Knesset. You have not proven this. That makes your claim false. I do not accept false claims here. I expect an acknowledgement of your error from you today or you will be moderated.

          5. @ Richard,
            you said it yourself, he was banned from running for parlament because of the ethics committee decision (that was what i was referring to – i agree that triad was not the correct term). and yes the supreme court over ruled it and yes it is a standart procedure.
            now, i guess if that’s all you had to say you were convinced of azmi bisharah wrong doings – can you acknowledge your errors?

          6. @Noam: I made no errors whatsoever. You said he was convicted in court & expelled from Knesset. I said nothing about the Knesset Committee action, which was not a legal proceeding or a judicial conviction. In fact, this Committee is an ideologically-charged kangaroo court. Action originating from this body is entirely political & has no legal basis.

            You indicated there was a court proceeding. There was none. Those are YOUR errors. You acknowledge them NOW. I find your response completely unacceptable.

            I will give you one hour from posting this comment before moderating you unless you explicitly acknowledge the claims in your comment were wrong.

            I have told you & others that claims here are based on facts & evidence. THey must be carefully made & precise. Yours aren’t. Remember the rules.

          7. @ Richard, luckily i got up early today and found your time limit. if you want to i can say it twice having no problem admitting my own mistakes.
            as i said in the earlier post trial was the wrong term. i was referring to the committee. approve the committee or don’t doesn’t matter, they decided he was not allowed to run for parliament and the court over ruled that decision. my MISTAKE!
            http://www.adalah.org/heb/Articles/890/%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%92%D7%95%D7%9F-%D7%A2%D7%93%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%94-%D7%94%D7%92%D7%99%D7%A9-%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%A8-%D7%A9%D7%9C

            and you did talk about the committee:
            “I think you may mean that the elections committee ruled that he couldn’t run for Knesset. If so, it makes such rulings regularly and they’re just as regularlyl overturned”.

            now, you claim you made no mistakes:
            “He was dragged through the mud by Shabak anonymous sources who accused him of moneylaundering without offering any proof.”
            according to the haaretz he fled after when presented with proof in the second investigation. and as i again presented in the haaretz article the azmi bishara middle man was found guilty in the money laundering. so i guess there was some kind of proof. and money laundering isn’t the only crime he was suspected in committing.

            “He was “accused” by anonymous sources in the pages of a newspaper”
            when actually he was questioned by the police and shabak

            “But he was driven into exile by Israel’s security state for which you may justly be proud. ”
            basically your claim is that he was an innocent men framed by the country while all evidence suggest other wise. and please call leaving the country as it should be refereed to – fleeing. what are we the iranians – exiling people??! and no, i’m not happy he got away. i would very much liked that he’d be put to trial in israel and if found guilty get thrown in jail, because he’s actions put my friends while fighting the war and my family in danger.

            frankly, i don’t care if you acknowledge it or not. the amount of proof i’ve provided is enough for any man to be convinced if he wants to be.

          8. @Noam: OK, thanks for admitting your mistake.

            I don’t care whether a money-lender was found guilty of anything. It has no bearing on Azmi Bishara since he wasn’t tried or convicted of anything.

            As for fleeing the country, Bishara knew he would be railroaded by Israel’s kangaroo court system (when dealing with security cases) & chose exile over a decade in prison. Further, he has very serious health issues and knew, given Israel’s history of “encouraging” prisoners to kill themselves directly or die through medical negligence, Bishara wisely chose exile.

            And don’t make any mistake about it–this was Israel’s security police forcing him into exile. I don’t believe they wanted to try him. They preferred that he go into exile as that would make him less of a martyr.

            Look, we’ve discussed Bishara hear and every possible issue you can bring up. Google his name & read what’s been written here. There’s really nothing more for you to say. So don’t. Move on.

            Azmi Bishara didn’t put you in danger. You put yourself in danger and are your own worst enemy. Azmi Bishara is a man who can, if not save Israel, then at least turn it into what it must become if it is to survive. America hated Malcolm X too. They thought he was a fire-breathing revolutionary. White people breathed a sign of relief when he was murdered. Hell, it’s possible the FBI even encouraged it. But now he’s seen as a brilliant prophet. If Israel survives the next 50 years, by the end of that time Israelis will treat Bishara something like we now treat Malcolm.

          9. @ Richard,
            it’s the same kangaroo court system that overturned the committee’s decision and ruled in favor of him.
            i think you’ve connected further apart dots then this case.

            thanks

          10. @Noam: I noted in my comment, which you conveniently omitted, that it’s a kangaroo court system regarding security cases. Regarding election matters, the Supreme Court is much more vigorous.

          11. I don’t think I said there’s “no support.” If I did it was clearly not meant as a scientific statement but rather as a statement about the relative amount of support compared to the past. Of course there is some support for suicde attacks just as their is support among Israelis for settler terror attacks & killing of Palestinians. But the level is drastically lower than it ever has been & numerous media articles have noted that militant groups have reshaped their tactics accordingly.

          12. With all due respect, you wrote: “Numerous Palestinian polls show there’s no support for suicide bombings among Palestinians” in your comment on this thread posted on May 28, 2013 at 1:40 PM.

  6. @DavidL.. So you think Jack Keitel is a Sicko? What would you call him if he were Muslim rather than Jewish?

    1. BTW… Mary, it’s Teitel… NOT Keitel (I’m sure it was a typo, but there is a famous actor with the last name of Keitel and it should be clear there is NO relation).

      Still a sicko, no matter what religion he is. If you’re trying to tell me that the terrorists who committ the atrocities they did are not mentally staable… I’ll call them sickos too. I’ll go even further…. if there is a Jew… who carries out pre-meditated murder for “ideological motives” on anybody (Arab, Jew, Muslim, Christian) he/she is a terrorist in my my book too. You DON”T murder people because of ideological reasoning alone…. you don’t murder period!!

      And the bullshit tossed around that “well, he/she lived on stolen land yada yada yada…” doesn’t justify vigilante style murder like the terrorist who murdered Evyatar Borovsky.

      1. @ DavidL
        “And all the bullshit tossed around that “well, he/she lieved on stolen land yada yada yada…..”
        Yeah, not like the Israelis killing Palestinians merely trying to trespass onto ‘their’ land, right ? How many Palestinians have been killed while trying to cross the (non-existing) border into what used to be historic Palestine ? Let’s start with the 5.000 Mistanenim killed between 1948-1956, according to Benny Morris.

        1. How many Israelis were killed by Palestinians trying to cross the (non-existing) border into what used to be historic Palestine in that same time period?

          Maybe start with the Ma’ale Akrabim massacre? Or maybe the Yehud attack which killed an Israeli woman and her two children (ages 1 and 3). Or the Beit Hanan attack? Or the Eilat bus ambush? Or the Shafir shooting attack where Palestinians opened fire on a synagogue full of children and teenagers? In that attack, 3 Israeli children, ages 13, 14, and 15 were killed along with their 25 year old teacher.

          But your narrative of Israelis killing Palestinians merely trying to walk over a non-existent border is much more effective if we leave all that unpleasantness out of the equation.

        2. @ Bob Mann
          Do you have anything to add to the earlier discussion that David L is referring to in his comment ? If not, don’t bother. At least, I won’t….

          1. I think Teitel is a terrorist and I am glad he was tried, convicted, and sent to jail for the rest of his life.

          2. @ Bob
            The part of David L’s comment that I referred to had nothing to do with Teitel. He mentionned the settler from Yizthar, didn’t he ? He was referring to an earlier discussion, something you apparently missed….

          3. If you can clarify exactly what you would like me to comment on, I would be happy to do so.

      2. @DavidL: I never hear you denounce Jewish terrorism voluntarily. But only in response to comments like Mary’s. And at that, you usually use terms like “sicko” or “mentally ill” as if to separate the crime or perpetrator from any political motivation, which annoys me. Since whatever sickness Teitel & his ilk carries seems to have at least an ounce of inspiration from the psychopathology of Israeli and settler society itself.

          1. The statement that you are saying is not true is one that you made. I was citing it in relation to the mental illness/terrorism argument from the earlier comments. The link was provided below the remarks. It was from your “Killing in God’s Name” post from November 15th, 2009 (as per the citation). I recognize with the structure of the comment threads that it is not always clear which comment is posted in response to which other comment, so I apologize for any confusion in that regard.

        1. RS:

          1) I NEVER hear you volunteer a lot of things I’d like to be discussed, which are of relevance and should be given a voice… but it’s your blog, you choose the subjectmatter. As a commenter, I CHOOSE when and what I’ll respond to and have no obligation to volunteer anything. What you seem to ignore that I do denounce acts of terrorism WHERE EVER they come from. Also, I don’t recall necessarily- and certainly not as a rule use the terms “sicko” or mental ill”.

          2) As noted here by someone else, on several instances in response to Palestinian acts of terror you have tried to mitigate the act by saying, there was this point, or that point which should be looked at… for instance the Itamar massacre of the Fogel family. I don’t care squat for what motivation those sick b-st–rds murdered the family… they were heinous crimes that deserved extreme punishment. This annoys ME to no end when you do this trying to explain away their murderous actions.

          3)Teitel is a sick person and can’t handle reality very well. Going around and murdering people isn’t a sane answer to issues he wants changed.

          I can say the same thing you claim for Teitel and his so-called inspiration from “settler ideology”, which I don’t agree as having a “let’s murder Arabs” built-in thinking, to the Palestinan individuals who stab, run-over, shoot, etc. innocent Israeli civilians. I could say, it obviously must come from inspiration and ideology lodged in the Palestinian society ( I know you won’t let it be posted here, but there are several examples of television programs, including children’s shows broadcast from the PA that glorify the death and murders).

          1. @David L
            “Teitel is a sick person and can’t handle reality very well.”
            Wow! In the same comment you refer to “Palestinian acts of terror.”
            I guess if Teitel’s excuse is that he’s a sick person, then we should certainly cut the Palestinians the same slack. Imagine if the Palestinians were occupying Israeli land, bulldozing Israeli homes and orchards, burning Israeli cars and olive trees, stealing Israeli water and other natural resources… I think there would probably be a lot more sick Jews showing they couldn’t handle reality very well. It’s astonishing that the Palestinians, whose homes and land have been appropriated for the benefit of over half a million Israelis now living there illegally, are handling the reality as well as they are. And while all settlers might not be like Jack Teitel, they are all violators of international law in my opinion, and every last one of them needs to go home pronto.

          2. @DavidL:

            I do denounce acts of terrorism WHERE EVER they come from.

            Not really. You denounce Palestinian or Muslim acts of terror routinely & vociferously. You criticize Jewish terrorism as an after-thought or when it’s convenient.

            in response to Palestinian acts of terror you have tried to mitigate the act

            This is a very common & false meme regarding my views on terrorism. I do not “mitigate,” “explain away,” minimize defend or apologize for (those are other false claims made regarding my views) terrorism. I merely explain how to stop terrorism. You may continue responding to ever higher mounds of dead bodies by putting up high walls, building bigger & better drones, or compiling ever longer kill lists as Obama & Bibi do. I, on the other hand, would like to dry up the reservoir of hatred that feeds these acts of terror. Doing so would deal with the problem at the root and stop it. That isn’t mitigating acts of terror & I don’t appreciate your mischaracterizing what I say on the subject.

            Teitel is a sick person

            No, that was the claim of his defense. He wasn’t sick at all. He is a cold-blooded serial killer. If he’s sick, then the entire settler movement from which he emanates is sick as well (not to mention the radical pro-settler elements of the American Jewish community that spawned him).

            Concerning Palestinians who commit violence in the West Bank, they do so as individuals is an unorganized fashion. Teitel & the Price Tag boys however are an organized cabal, a true terror conspriracy. They even have their own legal team to back them up, Honenu.

            there are several examples of television programs, including children’s shows broadcast from the PA that glorify the death and murders).

            THis is thoroughly off topic and off the deep end in terms of stupid, racist hasbara propaganda. Go there again & you’re toast.

        2. @ David L
          You also consider “sick bastards” the soldiers – or settlers – who killed cousins Salah Qawariq (18 years) and Muhammad Qawariq (19 years) from Awarta, the Palestinian village next to Itamar, unarmed civilians gunned down by several bullets from close range ? You think the killers should be punished by double life-sentences instead of being let off the hook ? The IDF changed its ‘explanation’ various times, and rumours go that a settler killed the two youngsters. Don’t you think Itamar should have been turned upside down in order to look for evidence, just as in Awarta ? If the thugs who killed those two youngsters had actually been sentenced, the Fogel-family might still be alive (and I’m not justifying anything !).
          http://www.ipsnews.net/2011/03/palestinian-village-under-siege-following-settler-killings/

          1. “Last year IPS visited the village after two young, unarmed men were gunned down by Israeli soldiers at close range in a hail of bullets in late March as they collected metal aggregates which they hoped to sell at the local market to help pay for their education.”

            Right. You sure they weren’t raising money for their grandma’s birthday present, whose wheelchair was crushed by an Israeli bulldozer?

            Sorry but the two cases are night and day. There was a military reason the soldiers entered there, and they were attacked and things got out of hand, just like on the Mavi Marmara. This is not anything like entering a village of and just going into a random house that you find and butchering a Jewish family, including a baby in its crib. This is what happened in Itamar. For you to compare the two is moral relativism at its worst, and is nauseating.

          2. @MarkyMark:

            You sure they weren’t raising money for their grandma’s birthday present, whose wheelchair was crushed by an Israeli bulldozer?

            I know the other online dives where you hang out may find this charming, entertaining or witty. I find it beyond offensive. It will get you kicked outa here pronto. This may be hard for your thick hasbara head to grasp, but Palestinians are generally poor. In Gaza, they have the added burden of being under siege. So they do what poor people around the world do: they collect & recycle garbage, metal parts, etc. Any tidbit that has any resale value. This takes them into dangerous areas along border fences, etc. That’s where they get killed by IDF soldiers with itchy trigger fingers. I will not permit you to insult the memory of a dead poor person by making a joke out of it. THat truly is sick & despicable. You have been warned.

            So don’t talk about nauseating. You take the cake on that score.

          3. @ Richard (and Mary)
            The case that I referred to – and MarkyMark responded to with his lies about the military being agressed: the killing of the two young men while collecting metal was not in Gaza. They were from Awarta, the village from which the two young men who killed the Fogel-Family also originated. This case of cold murder in 2010 as another killing of two young men from a neighbouring village just the day before even went to court. It seems that the killing ‘could have been avoided’. That’s probably the closest we get to a conviction.

          4. @ MadMark
            Thank you but this was a specific question to someone else with whom I’ve had varous discussions on the issue. If your “they were attacked” refers to the soldiers, it’s just pure BS !
            By the way, you were the guy who claimed Gush Etzion never expanded onto Palestinian land, weren’t you ?

          5. [Comment deleted for offensive snarky references to Palestinian dead–you were warned yesterday on the same subject]

  7. “Arab states don’t define Islam as a state religion. Some do (though they don’t actually implement that sentiment), some don’t”

    According to you, the states that do define Islam as a state religion, don’t actually implement it. Which is another way of saying, that no Arab states implement Islam and sharia law. Are you serious???

    1. @MarkyMark: I didn’t say that none do. But even those who claim to implement Sharia usually don’t use sharia as their only form of jurisprudence. That’s something like Israel which has halacha and British-inspired jurisprudence. That should sound familiar to you, no?

  8. @Richard,
    Netanyahu’s post may be offensive towards Syrians in general, but I can’t see any mention to the Muslim religion in that post.
    What makes his post so Islamophobic in your opinion?

    1. @Nimrod:

      I can’t see any mention to the Muslim religion in that post.
      What makes his post so Islamophobic in your opinion?

      Since you’re the first of two or three hasbaristas who’ve brought this up…I didn’t intend to address this because I thought it was obtuse nonsense. But since there are now a crowd of you (I didn’t publish the others because they repeated the same point) it’s worth wasting a bit of time to answer.

      I don’t know what it is about the hasbara set that all of a sudden gets thick & obtuse when it’s convenient, as it is in this case.

      All hasbarists know (because this is an essential weapon in their arsenal) that Muslims and Arabs are primitive, bloodthirsty & violent. That they batter and abuse their women, spill rivers of blood of fellow Arabs-Muslims and heathens as well. These are foundational beliefs in the pro-Israel worldview.

      So it matters little whether I argue that Bibi’s comments about Syria were Islamophobic in nature or merely Arabophobic. But the notion of citizens of an Arab nation spilling the blood of their fellow Arabs makes the hearts of all Jewish nationalist flutter (as it does Bibi’s). Because it reinforces the notion of Israel as an island of calm and civilization amidst this violent stew of Arab hate.

      When you add to this the racist, anti-historical notion Bibi advanced of Israel being a tranquil paradise compared to Syria, you have the full panoply of Bibi’s racism unfurled.

      1. @Richard:
        Bibi’s post did not contain the word ‘Arab’ either.
        So even though Bibi write anything about Muslims or Arabs in his facebook post, its still Islamophobic in nature or merely Arabophobic?

        But I do agree with what you said in such colorful way:
        “the notion of citizens of an Arab nation spilling the blood of their fellow Arabs makes the hearts of all Jewish nationalist flutter (as it does Bibi’s). Because it reinforces the notion of Israel as an island of calm and civilization amidst this violent stew of Arab hate.”

        I think that the civil war in Syria, and the rest of the turmoil in neighboring countries prove what Israeli nationalists have been saying for years: that Israel is not the source of all problems in the middle east – and if that’s racism in your eyes than go ahead and call me a racist.

      2. You make an awful lot of assumptions about what “all hasbarists know”. What I think you mean is that Bibi’s statement implies or alludes to anti-Arab sentiment. Which would be fine, if you treated antisemitic rhetoric similarly. I recall a commenter pointed out several not particular nice things implied about Jews by a Hamas leader in his speech several months ago. In response, you mocked and belittled him, and tried to explain away any antisemitism.

        For someone who repeated cautions against tossing around “antisemitism”, you really should know better.

        1. @djf: This is a blog about Israel. Not a blog about Palestine. Of course I deal with Palestine insofar as it relates directly to the mission of the blog, which again is Israel.

          So if you want to point out that Mohammed al-Dura is living in a villa in Dubai or Hamas airs Mickey Mouse TV spouting anti-Semitism or that Khaled Meshal spouts the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or other such irrelevancies, there are scores of other websites doing that which will be far more to your liking and to your prejudices.

          I also find it humorous that in this comment you acknowledge Bibi expressed hatred of Arabs, but in another comment written almost at the same time you charged that because he hadn’t mentioned the word “Arab” that I hadn’t proved my case that he hates Arabs. So which is it? Did you have a memory loss? Or just couldn’t keep track of all the websites you’re monitoring for hasbara central? Or just arguing in bad faith?

          1. But it’s not irrelevant. The fact that Israel perceives itself as surrounded by millions of people who hate it is very important to understanding the Middle East in the last half-century. You’re welcome to disagree with that perception, but you can’t ignore it. This incident is a good example. Do you think Palestinians trust Bibi? I doubt it. But why should Israelis trust Hamas when it “airs Mickey Mouse TV spouting anti-Semitism” and its leader “spouts the Protocols of the Elders of Zion”? That’s why Israelis operate under the assumption that their neighbors are out to kill them until proven otherwise. If you think that irrelevant, you don’t get it.

            And you don’t have any idea what my “prejudices” are. That you think you do just tells me you’re not really paying attention. That explains why you think I made another comment about Bibi. I didn’t. But that’s what happens when you lump all commenters to your right into the “hasbara” camp. I suppose it gets confusing.

            I did write another comment (which you didn’t approve), but that was in response to your stunningly ignorant claim that the Shulchan Aruch “dictates that couples have sex via holes in a sheet.” Not about Bibi.

          2. @djf:

            The fact that Israel perceives itself as surrounded by millions of people who hate it is very important to understanding the Middle East in the last half-century.

            Not at all. THe fact that Israel sees itself as a villa in the jungle for which it needs Jabotinsky’s proverbial Iron Wall to keep the native animals out is “very important” to understanding the delusional nature of much of Israel’s strategic thinking about its role in the region. It’s also important for understanding the level of violence Israel will bring to the region in the process of acting out these delusions.

            why should Israelis trust Hamas

            You’re saying you’re willing to guarantee hate & violence for the next thousand years (or until Israel is destroyed, whichever comes first) simply because a Gaza Mickey Mouse is mistranslated as claiming to hate Jews?? If so, that’s truly clinically delusional and you should be on a couch in someone’s psychiatric office.

            its leader “spouts the Protocols of the Elders of Zion”?

            Hey, that’s very good. You simply put what I wrote in quotation marks without noting that the statement was meant ironically and not to be taken at face value, precisely what you’ve done. No Hamas leader ever did what I wrote. I was putting those words in the mouth of the typical delusional right wing Israeli (of which you represent a perfect a specimen). You’ve taken the bait & proven the point. Thanks.

            I “don’t have any idea” what your prejudices are? What are you smokin’? Your prejudices are written here clear as day.

            Quoting a popular Jewish urban myth isn’t “stunningly ignorant.” It’s merely a mistake. Ones which you & I & every other human being make virtually every day of our lives. The fact that you need to make it a mountain instead of the mole hill it is tells us a lot about your good faith (you don’t have any).

          3. THe fact that Israel sees itself as a villa in the jungle for which it needs Jabotinsky’s proverbial Iron Wall to keep the native animals out is “very important” to understanding the delusional nature of much of Israel’s strategic thinking about its role in the region. It’s also important for understanding the level of violence Israel will bring to the region in the process of acting out these delusions.

            And you don’t think this is relevant to understanding the Middle East?

            You’re saying you’re willing to guarantee hate & violence for the next thousand years…

            What in the world are you talking about? Are you suggesting that my mental health has some effect Middle East politics? I’m not making a normative judgment here. I’m just observing what you continue to ignore, that hate begets hate. That’s a fact, whether I, or anyone else, guarantees it.

            I was putting those words in the mouth of the typical delusional right wing Israeli (of which you represent a perfect a specimen) … Your prejudices are written here clear as day.

            Again, more unfounded assumptions about me. So let’s have it. Show me evidence of my clear-as-day prejudices.

  9. Am I the only one that noted that neither Cain nor Abel were actually Jewish? And that Emil Grunzweig was assassinated on Feb. 10, 1983 and not 1973?

    1. @ pea, no you are not 🙂
      did you also noticed that the only actual example that was relavent to the point richard tried to make wasn’t mentioned – the sinking of Altalena 1948

    2. @Pea: You know as well as I that the Cain & Abel story is part of the foundational narrative of the Jewish people. So it doesn’t matter whether they were Jewish or not. We have embraced this story as Jews as our own. This gotcha-style nitpicking is petty & annoying & confirms that you act in bad faith.

      I find it interesting that you commonly regurgitate specific smears David Lange offers against me. Which means you read that shmateh. Which may also mean you coordinate in some way with him either by alerting him to material here or by amplifying his claims against me here. I find that objectionable & will be following such behavior in future.

      1. I hardly think that we, as Jewish people, in any way glorify or approve of Cain’s murder of Abel. As the children of Adam, that ugly incident is on all of mankind and is a pessimistic but realistic demonstration of the evil that we are all capable of, Jew and non-Jew alike.

        As for the correct date of Emil Grunzweig’s assassination, ordinarily one thanks people for pointing out one’s factual errors. Well at least that’s how I was taught to behave. I don’t know David Lange and I rarely if ever read his blog. You in all likelihood read it more than I do. But feel free to follow whatever you like.

        1. @Pea: As usual, your comment is entirely besides the point. My point was not to say that Jews “glorify or approve” of Cain’s murder of his brother. It was merely to point out that fratricide was an inherent element in Jewish tradition that makes us no different and no better than any other religion or nation, Islam, Arab or otherwise.

          As for the date of Grunzweig’s murder, if you’d offered the correction in the manner that many others do here you’d have my thanks. But you, as with so many hasbarists adopt the “gotcha” tone that revels in whatever mistakes you find. That doesn’t receive thanks from me.

  10. No one seems to be mentioning that Sibel Edmonds reported that the Turkish press was covering Western training of anti-Assad fighters outside the borders of Syria since the very beginnings of the conflict, we know even by name foreign fighters in Libya who are being funded and armed by Saudi Arabia and Qatar, etc.

    US General Wesley Clark stated in a speech at the Commonwealth Club that a few days after 9-11, he was told there was a list of 7 countries the US would attack in 5 years. Syria was one of them. And a truly awful wikileaks cable documents early in the Bush administration, a US ambassador discussing how Syrians supported Assad, yet the ambassador believed there would be many opportunities to sabotage Assad’s reform initiatives. Yup, we’re “friends of Syria” alright.

    So, however correct or incorrect Netanyahu is about the history of Jews or Israelis, he’s significantly misrepresenting the Syrian conflict as well, which seems to be significantly Western-incited and mercenary.

  11. @Richard Silverstein: “Israeli law is no more correct on this or many other issues than the Shulchan Aruch, which dictates that couples have sex via holes in a sheet.”

    The Shulchan Aruch dictates no such thing!!

    1. @Nikki:

      the Shulchan Aruch, which dictates that couples have sex via holes in a sheet.

      I can see that you & Pea have been reading the pages of David Lange’s rag. I’ve researched this issue and it appears this is a commonly believed urban myth. That being said, there are hundreds of odd sexual prohibitions within the Shulchan Aruch and halacha in general. Many of them are thoroughly degrading to women. I could enunciate any number of them if you doubt me. Do you?

      1. @Richard Silverstein: “I’ve researched this issue and it appears this is a commonly believed urban myth.”
        Don’t you think it might be advisable to do your research BEFORE publishing false statements?

        “That being said, there are hundreds of odd sexual prohibitions within the Shulchan Aruch …”
        So, what you are saying, Richard is, basically” “My statement was incorrect but I COULD have said something else, which would have been correct, therefore it’s OK that I made an incorrect statement”?

        And, FYI, I have never heard of David Lange and I have no idea what you mean by “David Lange’s rag”. Perhaps I should now go and look him (and it) up.

        1. @Nikki: I never said my mistake was redeemed by the fact that Halacha contains myriad other examples of ridiculous & offensive precepts regarding women & sexuality. Of course I would’ve used those examples had I known at the time that the hole in the sheet was an urban myth believed erroneously by tens of thousands of Jews like me.

          I do NOT appreciate your putting words in my mouth I never uttered. Why don’t you spend your time bathing in Lange’s filth? Keep this spot free for those who wish to avoid cheap shots of the sort you are fond.

      2. The double-standard you employ against Jews & Israel is remarkable. I’ve seen commenters here make similarly outrageous claims about Islam and you respond with angry name-calling and accuse them of racism & Islamophobia. But here, you can barely bring yourself to apologize for your stupid, ignorant comment about halacha.

  12. @ MarkyMark
    “There was a military reason the soldiers entered there, and they were attacked and things got out of hand, just like on the Mavi Marmara.”

    No Marky, there was no good reason, military or otherwise, for Israeli soldiers to enter any part of Gaza, just as there was no reason for Israeli pirates to attack the MAVI MARMARA in international waters and execute 9 unarmed passengers, plus a tenth unarmed passenger who has been in a coma for the past three years since the vicious attack on the Freedom Flotilla.

    1. [Comment deleted–off topic–this topic has been endlessly debated here and this comment repeats arguments offered by many commenters previously. The comment threads are not a hasbara battlefield or soccer pitch. Keep comments directly on topic. Further violations will cause you to be moderated]

      1. @MarkyMark
        You are so far off base it would be laughable if not for the fact there were dozens of innocent victims of Israeli’s aggression on that day, nine of them dead, one still in a coma. There were no weapons on board any boat. After Israeli commandos were lowered from helicopters, shooting at passengers before they even landed on deck, a few passengers, seeing the deck strewn with the dead and bleeding, picked up whatever was available in an attempt to defend themselves. There were no guns except those used by IDF. No passengers carried knives. At the original boarding all passengers were searched, and one man’s Swiss Army knife, overlooked by him, was confiscated. If there were knives on board, there were also forks and spoons, because the MAVI MARMARA had a galley where meals were prepared for the hundreds of passengers. There There were no shouts of “Go back to Auschwitz…” Even Israel admitted this didn’t happened. You need to get your hasbara updated. All passenger cameras, computers and mobile phones were stolen from them. Most of the video released by Israel was immediately discredited as fake or deliberately misleading. Israel had no right to be in international waters attacking civilian boats it knew presented no threat, except perhaps peace which it seems it considers a serious threat. One Israeli attacker was hurt when he landed or by friendly fire. He was treated by a Turkish doctor and returned to his fellow attackers.

        How dare you call me a hater of Israel?

        1. [Comment deleted–you have been moderated. When you show you understand & respect comment rules here, you may be I moderated. Comments that respect the rules will be approved pending my review.]

          1. @MarkyMark
            “Hapless soldiers?” How about terrorist pirates? They were the attackers. The passengers tried to defend themselves with anything they could find, only after several of them were butchered. It was clear the “hapless soldiers” were on a mission of murder, and for all the passengers knew they would all be killed.
            And I demand you provide a link to any comment I have ever made denying the holocaust, to Greta or to anyone else. I remember as an 11 year old in England in 1945, seeing photographs in the newspaper of emaciated prisoners being released from Nazi death camps, and bodies piled on the ground. Thank God in those days the photos were all black and white. That was the first I ever knew about the horrors of the holocaust, and an image I will never forget. So provide a link or apologize for your slanderous accusation.

          2. @ Mary
            After such a disgusting comment about you justifying the Holocaust, I hope Richard is going to throw this lying thug out of here.

          3. @ MadMark
            Your procedure is well-known and nobody here buys into it. YOU accused MARY of having justified the Holocaust – and as you can’t find anything to prove that lie that you just pulled out of your ass – you jump to Greta Berlin. This is not about Greta Berlin but about Mary, and your lying about her. We’re all waiting for that comment of hers. If you google it shouldn’t be that diffcult to find…. but I guess people insisting on you proving your lies are just some other Jew-haters…..

        2. “…… a few passengers, seeing the deck strewn with the dead and bleeding, picked up whatever was available in an attempt to defend themselves”

          Mary,
          I am sure that this is off subject but nevertheless…….
          1) Boarding the Mavi Marmara was both a humanitarian disaster and a strategic blunder.

          2) I viewed the videos of the soldiers as they abseiled down the rope and how they were set upon.
          The whole thing was too spontaneous and chaotic to be a fake.
          Had the soldiers fired on their way down,as you state, I find it very hard to believe that they would have been set upon
          in this brutal manner.Most people will not attack shooting soldiers under such circumstances. It is simply contrary to
          human nature.

          3) The sooner parties to the Palestinian Israeli conflict start to recognize and accept the truth for what it is,
          the sooner parties to the Palestinian Israeli conflict stop trying to spin every event to their advantage,
          then we may sooner reach a solution that enables all to live in peace.

          1. @Daniel F
            If Israel has nothing to hide why did it confiscate all the film and tape taken from the passengers and crew? That is the record of how they were attacked from the helicopters? The hasbara film we all saw was a cut and paste job patched together and released by Israel’s very efficient Department of Propaganda immediately after the attack, while some passengers were in the morgue and the rest were in jail. We all knew Israel was capable of carrying out terrorism against defenseless civilians, but we never thought they would commit this brazen massacre. We confess we underestimated them. Let’s all take a look at footage shot by passengers… then we’ll talk. (Actually we have seen some, taken by Mavi Marmara passenger Iara Lee, telling a different story from the one told by Israel.) Incidentally, the “hapless soldiers” were looking for some specific passengers on the MAVI MARMARA. They were carrying lists with names and photos of several “people of interest.” One of the was me.

        3. @Mary Hughes Thompson: while I completely understand the impulse to defend oneself in the face of hasbara assault, I ask you and others to realize that this is part of the hasbara strategy: to drag the conversation over territory that’s been hashed & rehashed so that you’re arguing over ancient history rather than the issues that are currently important.

          In short, try not to feed the hasbara trolls no matter how urgent your reasons for wanting to do so.

          I’m moderating MarkyMark. His tutors at hasbara central seem to have been asleep at the switch & allowed him to run amok here.

          I expect another hasbara flight to be landing at Ben Gurion shortly.

          1. Thanks, Richard. I wondered why the Mavi Marmara incident was raised at all, but as you said we have to be alert to this kind of device used to deflect from the subject at hand. I had already decided it was pointless to continue responding on the issue. As you know, I had many friends on the Mavi Marmara, and it’s not easy for me to read accusations that I know are false.

          2. @Mary Hughes Thompson: I completely understand. It took me a while till I cottoned on to this misfit’s hasbara MO. I’ve moderated him. The usual procedure is for them to write one last comment complaining about censorship, then they disappear till the next flight arrives!

      2. @ MadMark is just another hasbarista around, trying to score some easy points.
        The “Go back to Auschwitz”-tape published by the IDF was such a fake that even a deaf could hear this was a manipulation. Wow, someone actually had the chutzpah to bring up that great moment of Israeli hasbara 3 years after the incident. Back to Hasbara school, you’re simply too dumb to post on the internet.

      1. @MarkyMark
        Passengers on all the boats were victims of violence. Several were beaten and at least one had a broken nose. Attacking a civilian vessel in international waters, robbing and beating passengers, then kidnapping and forcing them at gunpoint to go to a place they don’t want to go is violence. Perhaps the attack on the MAVI MARMARA was motivated by the fact most of its passengers were Muslim. Just sayin’.
        I know what happened on the MAVI MARMARA and the other flotilla boats. You don’t. You brought it up here and I need to once again set the record straight. The only reason it’s appropriate in this thread is because Netanyahu’s administration approved it and he bears responsibility for the result.
        And to clarify my comment about not hating Israel. I detest what zionist Israel has done and is doing to Palestinians. I detesst what it has done to internationals who dare to stand in solidarity with Palestinians, including those who joined humanitarian voyages to Gaza. Does that mean I hate Israel? To you I guess it does. I support Israel but not in its present form. I have many friends there, Jewish Israelis who feel as I do and despair at what is done in their names. For their sakes I hope Israel will survive. My only hope for that is a single state for all of Israel and Palestine, with justice and equality for all. The single state is already there, since Israel controls it already; the justice and equality for all is the problem.

        1. @Mary
          “You can do anything with bayonets except sit on them”
          Mary, I know far less than you about what happened on that night three years ago.
          At the risk of appearing to be flippant, this I can say:
          Soldiers are trained to think with their weapons and because they did not have adequate less-lethal options in the face of a violent attack by a group of hardcore IHH activists that is probably what they did to defend themselves.
          The unnecessary loss of life is to be regretted.

          1. @DanielF: You think there was thinking involved in the IDF massacre? I think that’s precisely what was missing both in the soldiers’ response, in the planning of the operation by top brass, and to a lesser extent in the actions of a few of the IHH activists who decided to resist the takeover violently.

  13. @MarkyMark
    I said no such thing, and I no longer participate in groups where such liars prowl. I would never deny the holocaust or suggest that Hitler was anything but a monster directly responsible for the death of millions of innocent civilians, including millions of Jews. It is offensive to me that you or anyone would accuse me of such a thing, but I guess it goes with the territory when one is a defender of Palestinian rights.
    As for your suggestion that Israel ever “peacefully” boarded a peace boat heading for Gaza, there can never be anything “peaceful” about thugs armed with assault weapons forcing their way onto a boat filled with unarmed passengers. Even passengers who were spared a beating were terrorized; many kicked to the ground, blindfolded, hoods placed over their heads, handcuffed, and otherwise brutalized. Obscenities screamed at them, while being forced at gunpoint to leave their boat in the middle of the Mediterranean, many miles from Israeli territory or territorial water, and kidnapped to Israel, placed in prison, interrogated, often brutalized, and then forced to sign a statement confessing to “entering Israel illegally.”
    Get rid of those blinkers, MarkyMark.

  14. Mr Silverstein,
    http://www.loonwatch.com/2013/05/netanyahus-facebook-page-replete-with-racism-islamophobia/

    You mean well, but when you publish at sites like Loon Watch, you make your claim to be pro Israel look like a sham. You give ammunition to Jew haters. Read the comments there, and then tell us why you publish there. You are an Ashkenazi Jew aren’t you? Since you publish there, would you at least let the racist crowd there know that Bibi Netanyahu’s brother (an Ashkenazi Jew) lost his life saving Falasha Jews in Operation Moses when he was serving in the IDF?

    It would be great if you could publish a piece writing about Khazar Jews not being Jewish, since you are one according to them, (white, and European) often propogated there.

    1. Oh please, gimme a break. You don’t like Loonwatch because it exposes nutcase pro Israel haters like Pam Geller, etc. Too bad for you. You’d do better to spend your time diminishing the number of nationalist Jewish loons so the site would have nothing to write about. Instead you complain about who republishes my work.

      For the record, I didn’t ask for anyone to republish my work but as long as they’re not white supremacists like David Duke and they credit my blog as the source, I have no problem.

      Bibi Netanyahu has no purchase on anyone’s sympathy because his brother died in Entebbe. He rises & falls on his own & Bibi is one of the most pernicious Israeli politicians to come along in years (there’s a lot of competition).

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