I wasn’t going to write a blog post on this story, but I read one statement from a clueless U.S. official that was so galling I just had to, if only to express my outrage as a U.S. citizen at the increasing outrageousness and irrelevance of U.S. policy concerning Palestine. The NY Times reports that the Obama administration is putting forward a last-ditch pitch to Mahmoud Abbas which could avoid a vote on statehood in the General Assembly this month. What does the offer involve? Anything substantive? No:
The administration has circulated a proposal for renewed peace talks with the Israelis in the hopes of persuading the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to abandon the bid for recognition at the annual gathering of world leaders at the United Nations General Assembly beginning Sept. 20.
This is the big deal that will make the PA climb down from their horse galloping toward an independent state? Really? This? All I can say to Obama is: have you lost all semblance of reason? Is that what you mistake for a real policy?
Here’s the money quote, the one which sent me over the top when I read it, the one that sounds an awful lot like that dabbling wunderkind, Dennis Ross:
“If you put the alternative out there, then you’ve suddenly just changed the circumstances and changed the dynamic,” a senior administration official involved in the flurry of diplomacy said Thursday. “And that’s what we’re trying very much to do.”
“An alternative?” How is this “proposal” an alternative? Is doing nothing and promising nothing an alternative to statehood? And if it is, in whose eyes? In Ross’ eyes and the eyes of his boss? As far as I’m concerned you can take ’em all and dump ’em in the Potomac. That’s how much use I have for this crowd of jokers and charlatans.
Part of this magnificent new plan involves a Very Important Statement by the Quartet. Now, this isn’t just any statement, this is a statement of Importance:
A statement by the Quartet would be more than a symbolic gesture. It would outline a series of meetings and actions to resume talks to create a Palestinian state.
Well, why didn’t you say so? That changes everything. I’m on board now. I’m firing up my computer to demand that Abbas stop this statehood nonsense because the Quartet cavalry are here to save the day for Palestine. They’re going to “outline a series of meetings and actions!” Huzzah and Hosannah, all Palestine’s problems will shortly disappear. Just trust in Brother Tony and Brother Barack. They’ve got your back, Palestine.
There are two actually important points to add here. One is that a Wikileaks cable reveals that one of Israel’s major, and so far unstated objections to Palestinian statehood is that it will enable the ICC to claim jurisdiction over matters concerning Palestine:
[IDF Military Advocate] Mandelblit said several legal opinions had been delivered to [ICC chief] Ocampo noting that the ICC had no legal jurisdiction due to the PA’s lack of statehood…
Until now, Israel could claim that even if war crimes were committed the ICC has no jurisdiction since there is no member state involved. A GA vote favoring statehood sets Palestine up to be a UN member eligible for inclusion in the ICC.
A further note of just how frightened Israel is of the ICC comes in the form of a statement by a senior IDF lawyer also attending the meeting with the U.S. ambassador:
Libman noted that the ICC was the most dangerous issue for Israel…
That’s pretty strong language. They’re not just concerned about it, or consider the ICC dangerous for Israel. It’s THE most dangerous issue. Frankly, if I were Israel there would be other issues I’d consider more dangerous. But this statement definitely gives you a look into the mind of some in the Israeli governing élite.
This same cable includes a potentially troubling claim by Israel’s chief military prosecutor that any attempt by Palestine to bring Israel before the ICC will be considered an act of war:
He warned that PA pursuit of Israel through the ICC would be viewed as war by the GOI.
In fact, we all know how Israeli pursues those with whom it is “at war.” Can we expect targeted assassination of Mahmoud Abbas or the designated cabinet officer pursuing ICC cases? All of this is troubling enough, but what irks and galls me even more is that Israel has the unmitigated chutzpah to declare war on a future UN member state merely because it chooses to exercise it rights as a member state to bring an opponent to justice. If I were Palestine, in fact, I’d demand UN censure for such outrageous behavior. What will they do next? Assassinate the very first officially designated UN ambassador before he makes his first speech to the GA? Is this what Israel has in store for a Palestine with which it is “at war?”
Further, this isn’t merely a politician speaking here to the U.S. ambassador. This is the IDF’s top lawyer, the one supposedly prosecuting cases of potential war crimes by its soldiers during Cast Lead. This is a senior legal representative of the State and its army threatening war on Palestine.
There is one new wrinkle in the matter: now Turkey can also go to the ICC and demand consideration of not just the case involving the Mavi Marmara victims, but the entire Gaza siege. If Turkey did so, would Israel go to war against that country as well, along with its 70 million citizens? Turkey will also do everything in its power to promote and defend Palestine’s bid for justice before the ICC. So it’s one thing when it’s merely little Palestine begging for justice. And quite another when big brother Turkey takes up Palestine’s cause before the world.
I wouldn’t worry too much about Turkey going to the ICC. There are 2 reasons to go to the ICC. If two disputing states request it. Israel won’t request it. Secondly it is referred to it for an advisory decision from the UN. It’s doubtful Turkey would ask for another advisory decision after the UN’s Palmer Commission found the blockade of Gaza and the interception of ships trying to break it fully legal.
Does Turkey want Israel to bring the constant slaughter of Kurds to the ICC? How many woman and children were among the 100 Kurds recently killed by Turkey?
Ah, do you not recall that the PKK has killed hundreds of Turkish soldiers & civilians? So why would Turkey fear a referral to the ICC? Besides, I’d say that both Turkey & Israel kill their own citizens and those under their jurisdiction. But Israel of course kills many times the numbers that Turkey does.
Turkey of course WILL bring this to the ICC though I’m sure hearing from you will give them great pause before doing so.
You wrote:
“Both Turkey & Israel kill their own citizens and those under their jurisdiction. But Israel of course kills many times the numbers that Turkey does.”
I do not think this statement is accurate.
Estimates that I have seen indicate that the total number of Israelis and Palestinians killed in conflict between 1948 and 2009 is approximately 14,500. Since 1987, the number of Palestinians killed is just under 8,000 according to B’tselem.
Whereas, since 1994, the number killed in the PKK conflict in Turkey is estimated at over 37,000 (with the vast majority of those casualties being on the Kurdish side). Civilian casualty figures range widely depending on the source. The Turkish government itself claims to have killed 32,000 PKK members since 1994.
I think you’re numbers are completely fahrshtunteh. I don’t believe them for a second. Give yr source.
B’tselem does a pretty comprehensive job tracking Palestinian and Israeli casualties.
Between 1987 and 2000, they list a Palestinian casualty total of around 1,500, and between 2000 and 2011, they list a Palestinian casualty total of around 6,300. Together that totals a little under 8,000 Palestinian casualties since 1987.
All of those figures are listed on the B’tselem website in their “Statistics” section.
With respect to the Turkish numbers, Human Rights Watch has a pretty extensive report on the conflict there. Their report states: “The fighting has killed an estimated 44,000 people: soldiers, PKK members, and civilians.”
The report includes the following reference with respect to casualties: “The official figures were stated as follows: 6,482 soldiers; 32,000 PKK members; 5,660 civilians killed.”
The report can be found on the Human Rights Watch website under “Publications” – it is entitled “Protesting as a Terrorist Offense.”
If you put the information from those two sources together (B’tselem and Human Rights Watch), they seem to establish that over the last 25 years or so, the Turks have killed its own citizens in far greater numbers.
Are you aware of other sources that dispute these figures? I am not understanding why you find them to be so suspect.
Bob Mann how many people are in Israel and how much in Turkey? Well Turkey is about 10 times bigger in population than Israel is. So when comparing both situations we must look at the size of the nations.
Turkey 40 000 killed
Israel 14 500 killed * 10 = 145 000
The Israel/Palestine conflict is much bloodier than the Kurd fight in Turkey if try to make the figures “comparable”, which by the way is impossible. Would you consider for example if Finnish Jewish population would be “erased” a minor incident. There are about 1300 Jews in Finland. With this body count logic basically nothing had happened, because the figure would be only 1300.
The Kurds situation in Turkey is not good but neither is the Palestinians situation in Israel/Palestine.
SimoHurtta,
Here is what I was addressing:
“Both Turkey & Israel kill their own citizens and those under their jurisdiction. But Israel of course kills many times the numbers that Turkey does.”
That was the statement that I did not think was accurate. I do not believe that Israel kills many times the numbers that Turkey does. I think that the evidence I have provided supports the opposite conclusion.
I do not mean to suggest anything else about the relative bloodiness of either historical conflict, nor do I mean to minimize the significance of the numbers of people killed in either circumstance.
Imagine if all the crimes of the world were revealed for all to see.
Grendal (apparently) does not know the difference between the International Criminal Court and the International Court of Justice.
Grendal, baby, n.o.b.o.d.y. asks for an advisory opinion from the ICC.
What they ask of the ICC is that it issue indictments for war crimes.
They certainly don’t ask the ICC to opine on obscure interpretations of international law; that’s what the ICJ is for…….
There are 2 reasons to go to the ICC. If two disputing states request it. Israel won’t request it.
You are confusing the International Criminal Court with the International Court of Justice. The ICC’s jurisdiction is limited to natural persons.
So if you look at the current crop of cases, you’ll see that there are no states, just government officials and other individuals charged with crimes. http://www.icc-cpi.int/Menus/ICC/Situations+and+Cases/Cases/
It’s doubtful Turkey would ask for another advisory decision after the UN’s Palmer Commission found the blockade of Gaza and the interception of ships trying to break it fully legal.
Let’s put that myth to rest. The Palmer Commission was not a UN advisory opinion. In fact, it didn’t even fulfill the criteria for a full investigation outlined in the UN Security Council President’s Statement:
The Palmer Commission didn’t have a mandate to conduct a proper investigation or to report on violations of international law.
The responsible treaty monitoring bodies and UN mandate holders have several fact finding mission reports which say that the blockade and the attack on the flotilla were both illegal.
According to Anne Bayefsky the purpose of the Palmer Committee was to make those other international investigations go away. http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/investigation-israels-action-flotilla-continue
Not too long ago the US wanted Turkey to drop legal claims against the IDF and to bury the Palmer report itself. http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=230779
Deflection. Turkey not in good shape. Kurds are keeling Turk soldiers daily. Turkey has been bombing Kurds and murdering hundreds of civilians and little impact militarily
Turkey has become now a legitimate target for Iran as it will be hosting a usa radar air defence system against Iran missiles – you see USA first line defence and offense against Iran on muslim land – just few months ago Erdog and Ahminajad were kissing and saying hoe close they are.. this shows you the deceing lying islamic mentality
Turkey has been exposed as a loser – neither Egypt nor Lybia could care less about Turkey as clearly evident by events and turkey shame clearly seen by all m east people
Poblem – erdog has arrested thousands of journalist MP S
OFFICERS ETC – PRESSURE BUILDING FROM OUTSIDE telling erdg to free them – poor guy doesnt know what to do
so natually he tries to deflect – if you bother to read the turkish last free english n paper yo
Assad id Syria laughs at erdogen as poor erdog is asking
to stop butchering Syriam people
Whoa, you’re banned baby. And could you learn to spell or use spell check?
Prediction, and I hope I’m wrong. The PA will cave. they are a fully owned creature of Israel and the west and represent their own personal interests. They are Quislings who blocked an UN investigation into war crimes against their own people during Cast Lead. the Quartet, especially the vile Blair, represent Israel’s interests much as the US does. All talk of peace negotiations are farcical and are meant to run out the clock while Palestinians are dispossessed. funny how there is never pressure from the US or quartet on Israel. Indeed the EU’s relationship with Israel is illegal under the EU constitution which prohibits special trade status with regimes that violate human rights. none of this seems to matter.
“The PA will cave. they are a fully owned creature of Israel and the west and represent their own personal interests.”
*sigh*
Paul does not understand the difference between the PLO and the PA.
It is the PLO who will be approaching the UN with a request for recognition of the Unilateral Declaration of Independence.
Which is only fair, since it was the PLO itself that made that declaration in 1988.
And it remains true that the PLO is **still** the sole recognized representative of the Palestinian people (universally acknowleged as such, even by Israel).
The PA has no authority to discuss or to promote final status issues with anyone, since it is (and always has been) nothing but a temporary administrative organization designed for no other purpose but to create the scaffolding around which the infrastructure of the (future) Palestinian state would be built.
Is the PLO a “fully owned creature of Israel”?
No, apparently not.
It is often cowered by Israel, sure, but who wouldn’t be when you spend every waking hour with an IDF gun pointing at you?
It isn’t able to act completely freely of Israel, sure, but who would when you spend every waking hour with an IDF gun pointing at you?
The PA has no authority to discuss or to promote final status issues with anyone
The two bodies have overlapping functions in the area of foreign relations. The PLO has signed international agreements “on behalf of the PA”, but that makes the PA the de jure contracting party, not the PLO.
The UN Secretary General acts as the official depositary for multilateral treaties in the UN Treaty Organization. He has accepted several instruments from Palestine. The historical notes indicate that the full powers for signature of the Agreements were issued by the Chairman of the Executive Council of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the President of the Palestinian National Authority.
I’m sorry, haver, but I distinctly said that I was referring to the authority to negotiation FINAL STATUS ISSUES, and that the PA has absolutely no authority to involve itself on *those* issues.
And in that I am perfectly correct i.e. when Israel goes into the tent to discuss final status issues with the Palestinians then the people staring at them across that table are… Abbas, and Rabbo, and Erekat.
All PLO men.
Compare and contrast: Faayad is nowhere to be seen anywhere within that tent, even though he is the PA Prime Minister.
Johnboy the Oslo Accords did not include statehood or UN membership in the enumerated final status issues.
In any event Dr Michael Kearney, a senior research fellow at Al Haq, and Errol Mendes, a visting legal scholar at the ICC, have both written advisory opinions for the Prosecutor which illustrated that there is no longer any division of labor in the field of foreign relations under the expired (September 13, 2000) Oslo framework. That is especially true after the ICJ advised in 2004 that all states, including Israel, were under an erga omnes obligation to remove any impediment to the exercise of the right of self-determination by the Palestinian people.
For several years, Mr. Fayyad has engaged in direct foreign relations with the World Bank, IMF, AHLC donor states, and UNSCO in his capacity as an empowered Minister of Finance and Prime Minister of the PA.
The final status issues are all in Phase III: Permanent Status Agreement And End Of The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. However, Phase II (June 2003-December 2003) of the Quartet Road map terms of reference said:
They are Quislings who blocked an UN investigation into war crimes against their own people during Cast Lead.
No, they delayed a vote on the Fact Finding Mission report when Israel threatened to turn the West Bank into another Gaza. See Diskin to Abbas: Defer UN vote on Goldstone or face ‘second Gaza’ http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/diskin-to-abbas-defer-un-vote-on-goldstone-or-face-second-gaza-1.261541
They had already filed a report from an Arab League fact finding mission headed by John Dugard with the ICC and had accepted the jurisdiction of the ICC on their own behalf. The last HRC follow-up on the Goldstone report is waiting on a referral to the Security Council and the ICC. http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/HRC/16/L.31
I can’t say that I share your disappointment with your government, Richard.
I’m inclined to think that America’s slide into irrelevance when it comes to Middle East peace is probably a good thing.
Palestinians have often remarked that the US is not a ‘broker’. Rather it is a solid part of the Israeli team.
I think that the more ineffectual the US becomes – and with it AIPACStreet – the better for the region.
Yes, I see yr pt. though as an American who would like to believe that his country has a positive role to play in the world, it pains me to admit it.
RE: “If you put the alternative out there, then you’ve suddenly just changed the circumstances and changed the dynamic,” ~ a senior administration official
SEE: Desire and the Imagination of the Kingdom, By Wess Daniels, 04/09/08
SOURCE – http://www.barclaypress.com/wdaniels.php/2008/09/04/desire-and-kingdom
Wow, I’d never read that before. Illuminating. But guess what, whoever this jackass was isn’t creating such realities anymore. Though I have to say that in those 8 yrs. he created enough reality that it will take us several decades to undo the worst of it.
Yeah — kick the tires on the fantasies of those years and they turn to dust, like WMDs! Fantasy diplomacy indeed.
RE: “whoever this jackass was” ~ R.S.
MY REPLY: Good call! He has since apparently been identified as none other than “Herr” Karl Rove (a/k/a “Turd Blossom”).
ALSO SEE: Imperial Delusions, By Robert Jensen, Counterpunch, 9/05/11
ENTIRE COMMENTARY – http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/09/05/imperial-delusions-2/
The admin’s behaviour is pretty lame alright, but it’s not out of character. Obama has an election to win, and after that (if he does manage to win), he will have the midterms to be cautious about. Maybe we’ll see some action from a lame duck prez?
I don’t think that Israel would declare war on Turkey, but they sure as hell will demand that the US bomb that vile country with its Islamist administration. Personally, I’m quite happy to see that both Palestine and Turkey are taking action, since neither Tel Aviv nor Washington wants to get off their fat asses — except to do violence.
The US and Israel are locked in a death embrace. They will go down together.
Declare war against Turkey?
Are you nuts or totally loose of reality? Turkey is a member of NATO. Do you understand what that means? USA would have to defend Turkey and go to war against Israel. The other option for USA is to demolish NATO and on the same time the rest of its international influence.
Even in case of Israel would go to war against Turkey and others would not interfere it would be a suicide for Israel. Turkey is besides nukes enough strong to “push Israel to the sea”. The only option for Israel to win a war against bigger nations is to use its nukes. That is clear to the general staff of every army in Eurasia.
That, that Israelis and Israel’s supporters so eagerly speak about war against Turkey, Egypt and basically every other country which is “against” Israeli demands, is and has not gone without notice. The danger is that of those unrealistic, megalomaniac warmongers some are influential Israeli politicians, who have access to to “nuke button”. Israelis should finally understand that their possibility to bully and to be megalomaniac is based mainly on Israel’s ability to control USA and partly on Israel’s nukes.
Turkey has reclaimed its true and natural influence in the region. It is not the question of Islam or Islamic party’s policy. It is pure real politics and what ever government there will be in future they will follow this line. Turkey (and Egypt) will not any more tolerate that Israel is the dominant power. Turkey will not allow Israel and Cyprus to “take” the natural gas and oil resources. Also Egypt will have opinions where the borders of Israel’s economical continental shelf are and will be.
Please, all you warmongers. Do it in behalf of other countries other than Israel.
What if Obama is doing for Palestine what he did for Libya? Appearing to stay aside while working covertly to achieve the objective which every so-called mideast analyst says is the objective he (obama) wants to avoid.
obama’s Strategic Deception is to work for Palestine statehood while appearing to work against it.
israel mistakes:
(1) to have let it happen that Russia becomes part of the Quartet.
(2) to have miscalculated on the move by true palestinians to ask the UNGA for Palestine recognition.
(3) to have relied completely on Abbas (AbuMazen) its MossadMole to seeks the reversal of the Plaestinian UNGA effort. he can’t now because he was uncovered as the MossadMole that he was when he tried previously to stop the UN Goldstone Report.
my two bits.
“The truly great United States of America has a great role to play in unfolding events.” It certainly does, and has had since 1948, and has exemplified this role by supporting excusing, rationalizing, sublimating, even underwriting almost every Israeli outrage. Whether it’s Israel’s land grab of 1967 or its concomitant destruction of the USS Liberty, its continued destructive ghettoization of Gaza, its ongoing settler usurpation of Arab property, its refusal to accept international law, its Biblical justifications for its actions – you name it – the United States will be there to aid and abet and thus continue to demonstrate its acceptance of Israeli measures even when such run counter to America’s own well-being and, ironically, ultimately to the well-being of Israel, or of those Israelis who prefer not to be classified as citizens of a pariah state. There is, or certainly there has been, one nation, the United States, that all along could have pressured Israel in truly positive ways had it been willing and courageous enough to do so. My God, how many standing ovations did Netanyahu receive when he addressed our captive Congress? “A great role to play”, indeed.