Woody Guthrie memorably wrote that “some rob you with a six-gun and some with a fountain pen.” Similarly, some ethnic cleansing happens by force and out in the open a la Serbia’s displacement of Croats and Kosovars during the Yugoslav wars, and some happens with the stroke of a pen. Witness the IDF’s expulsion between 1967 and 1994 of 140,000 Palestinians from their homeland by trumped up regulations that artificially denied residency if they did not return promptly to their homes from travel, study or work abroad.
Israel has used a covert procedure to cancel the residency status of 140,000 West Bank Palestinians between 1967 and 1994, the legal advisor for the Judea and Samaria Justice Ministry’s office admits, in a new document obtained by Haaretz. The document was written after the Center for the Defense of the Individual filed a request under the Freedom of Information Law.
The document states that the procedure was used on Palestinian residents of the West Bank who traveled abroad between 1967 and 1994. From the occupation of the West Bank until the signing of the Oslo Accords, Palestinians who wished to travel abroad via Jordan were ordered to leave their ID cards at the Allenby Bridge border crossing.
They exchanged their ID cards for a card allowing them to cross. The card was valid for three years and could be renewed three times, each time adding another year.
If a Palestinian did not return within six months of the card’s expiration, thier documents would be sent to the regional census supervisor. Residents who failed to return on time were registered as NLRs – no longer residents. The document makes no mention of any warning or information that the Palestinians received about the process.
Interestingly, even the IDF’s chief administrative officer in the Territories during this period didn’t know of its existence. That’s how much of a secret it was. If you wonder why…clearly the IDF knew it was violating international law.
This procedure is still in place for East Jerusalem residents who lose their residency if they stay abroad longer than seven years. Moked, the NGO which uncovered this dreadful wrong, also notes that an unknown number of Gazans similarly have lost their residency rights. That number is still considered a secret by the IDF.
So let’s be clear about a few things and call them by their rightful name. This is ethnic cleansing. It is “nice” ethnic cleansing because no one gets killed and no one is physically driven from their home in the dead of night as happened in other historic instances of such crimes. In that sense, it’s a quite tidy and effective tactic to decrease the Palestinian population. It violates nternational law and will not stand in the long-term.
Now, Israel will have to add to those entitled to return not only tens (or more) thousands of Nakba returnees, but hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from the Territories. And those 140,000 have grown by leaps and bounds because their children have been deprived as well of their patrimony.
This is a quiet crime that must be undone.
This is the kind of crimes that nourrish hate more than anything else.
The latest widely known exemple of ethnic cleansing from East Jerusalem is that of Munther Fahmi, the owner of the famous English bookshop in the American Colony:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2011/03/munther_fahmi
Wouldn’t that be perfect for a settler arriving from Brooklyn or London, not only would there be a house to take over, but a bookstore too.
Legal Status of East Jerusalem and its residents:
http://www.btselem.org/english/Jerusalem/Legal_Status.asp
Deir, the Israelis have the idea that under Jordanian control, they were driven out of parts of Jerusalem, their houses of worship and other buildings destroyed, and their property confiscated.
Nothing too perfect or gracious or nice about any of the folks on that side of things either.
Either you’re another Hasbara-spinner, taking a little more care of your language, or you’re just plain ignorant. Or both.
Minimum 800.000 Palestinians were expulsed or prevented from returning home in ’48. 10.000 Jews were expulsed or flee the other way. And try to find out how many of these Jews were natives and how many were recent settlets in Palestine. Not talking about the x-tra 23% landgrabbing.That has absolutely NOTHING to to with the continuous ethnic cleansing AND continuous destruction of Palestinian villages after ’67, including East Jerusalem.
So spare me your crap of ‘peace-and-love-nothing-is-perfect-both-sides-could-improve’.
Here’s an exemple of the destruction of Palestine after ’67.
Imwas, a biblical village:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/al-Ramla/Imwas/Picture2484.html
The four following pictures show this village in 1958, 1968, 1978 and in 1988. A part of the famous ‘Canada Park’, financed primarily by Canadian Jews, is situated on the village:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Park
Deir, nothing in my words suggest “nothing is perfect on both sides”. Both sides are enormously imperfect and the side that fought to prevent the establishment of Israel, deciding on a stategy of “all or nothing” can cry that they lost their war, and should cry, but they deserve but limited sympathy.
As well, I offer a hardy screw you in reply to suggesting that I’m a “hasbara-spinner”.
My words and thoughts are my own.
I offer you the respect of thinking that you mean what you say and that you’re your own fool and nobody else’s.
I expect as much in return.
To Fuster: Can you imagine any population of any ethnicity voluntarily giving up their autonomy to another people? Then why do the Palestinians only deserve “limited sympathy”?
In the seventies in my country – and in some circles still- Palestinians were regarded as terrorists and anti-Semites simply for refusing to DONATE their assets and homes VOLUNTARILY to the perscuted Jews of Europe.
Please do not tell me that you harbour similar views!
As to the destruction of places of worship: Are you referring to the Hurva Synagogue? That, apparently, is quite a complicated story. (See wikipedia.)
Deïr Yassin,
It is easy to dismiss Zionist supporters as “Hasbara spinners” to avoid grappling with the argument. I assure I am not “hasbara”, nor do I work for the “regime”. I have my own opinions – and while they certainly collide with your world view – my opinions are by no means the implanted message of some regime or another – just like your views are not the result of “Palestinian brainwashing”.
You speak of the Palestinian refugees. What happened to them was unfortunate, but must also be put in the proper context. To begin with, there is also the issue of the Jewish refugees. There were an estimated 1000000 Jews had left the Arab world due to persecution during the time where the Zionist movement had begun to flourish. These were “native Jews”, who had spent centuries in their Arab homelands. Is there a Jewish refugee problem? No. Israel elected to absorb the refugee Jews, being the homeland for the Jews. On the other hand, Arab countries have been using the Palestinian refugees as a weapon against Israel, and do not given them equal rights. Instead, Palestinian refugees are considered second class citizens in many of the Arab countries they fled to. Yet I never hear outcry about the “apartheid” and discrimination against Palestinians in Arab countries – I only hear about how the Democracy of Israel allegedly mistreats it Arab citizens. Why? Also, the destruction of the Arab community in Israel is the result of a very brutal war – which was started by the Arabs, in 1948′. The Arabs lost the war, and a price was paid. The Arabs could have avoided going to war by accepting the two-state solution offered by the UN – but they refused. That is fair enough, but one should have enough guts to accept his loss honorably, rather than continue complaining about the grave injustice that has been inflicted on him.
Now, you may say that the UN partition plan of 1947′ is invalid, and that Arabs should not be “forced” to pay for the crimes of the Europeans. I would of course disagree with you – but this is a different matter. Two sides went to war. One side (Israel), pleaded the Arabs not to go to war, while the Arabs wanted to destroy Israel. Arabs lost – and refugees fled (And yes, some were wrongfully exiled from their homes). In many respects, the responsibility of maintaining the plight of the refugees – is with the Arab nations, who refused to absorb their brothers.
Also, if Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Palestinians, it is doing a fairly poor job. You should conserve your hatred towards the Zionists and aim it towards those who really hurt your brothers. Unfortunately, those who are responsible for the most Palestinian suffering and death are mainly Arab Muslim leaders. I am sure it is more comfortable for you to blame the Jews in Israel of “ultimate evil”, rather than to direct such sharp criticism towards Muslim leaders.
Stay ON TOPIC. This post has nothing to do with the history & treatment of Jews in Arab lands. The comment threads are NOT your personal political megaphone. They are a place for you to comment on the specific subject I wrote about. If you can do that, great. If you can’t publish your comment somewhere else.
Unfortunate??!!! You call a Nakba in which nearly 1 million were expelled merely “unfortunate??” Of course you’re a hasbarist. Any reasonable person would be able to muster words more morally appropriate to describe this act.
I don’t know how many Jews left Arab lands but I severely doubt it was anywhere near 1-million. And no, I don’t trust Wikipedia as a credible source on this matter unless you can post the original research & sources used to come up w. that number. Further, there were a myriad of reasons why Jews left Arab lands. Some left for economic reasons. Some left for social reasons because most other Jews had left & they didn’t wish to live amidst a Jewish community that was a ghost of its former self. Some left due to persecution & some left because they were expelled. This is NOT a Jewish Nakba. Not by any means. To call it that shows not only that you’re not a serious student of history, but that you’d rather distort history to score points in the hasbara war.
We’ve had this argument about the history of Arab Jews in 1948 in this blog already a number of times. Pls. realize that because this may be the first time you’re raising an argument, it isn’t the first time it’s been addressed. And the more times people address the issue the deader the horse becomes. There’s a reason I demand people like you read the comment rules. Because there you’ll learn which issues are ones that’ve been exhausted & what are other important rules that guide discourse.
If I hear this dumb argument again I might scream. It’s so old & just plain dumb. Of course the refugees are a badge of shame against Israel. ISRAEL created the refugee problem. Israel gets the blame for it. Arab countries are not at fault for the refugee problem nor are they responsible for solving it. Israel is.
As for Israel absorbing Arab Jewish refugees: it NEEDED those refugees to repopulate the young nation. In fact, Israel engaged in acts of terror in several places which frightened Jews into making aliyah. So in some cases Israel itself was responsible for creating Arab Jewish refugees & of course was happy to absorb them. Arab countries never needed or wanted Palestinian refugees so Israel & the Arab countries are in no way comparable in this matter.
Because they are CITIZENS of Israel and the refugees are not native indigneous citizens of the Arab states to which they fled. Of course Israel is criticized because it treats its Palestinian citizens badly. Such criticism is entirely appropriate since Israel claims it is a democracy. And true democracies don’t generally treat one group of citizens worse than another based on their ethnicity or religion.
Nope, sorry. That’s not the way international law works. Winners don’t get to expel 1 million citizens of a country merely because they won a war. That’s called barbarism. Now, if you wish to approve of barbarism and call it what it is I don’t have a problem w. that. But don’t put a pig in a dress and call her a cute little girl when everyone knows she’s a pig.
By that logic, any nation that loses a any war should sit back and accept their loss “honorably.” Jews should accept the loss of 6 million and behave honorably about it. Don’t protest such injustice. If you lost, you lose the right to justice. What nonsense!
Once again, 1948 is OFF TOPIC. If you want to debate that subject either wait for a post that deals w. it or write about it elsehwere. Stay ON TOPIC & follow the rules.
Now you’ve repeated yrself & your comment besides being just plain wrong is starting to be offensive. Again, the country that expels 1 million citizens is responsible for them. Not another country of which these 1 million are not even citizens. There is no Arab blood connection that demands an Arab country accept other Arabs displaced from their homes. Should there be some rule that Caucasian countries should be responsible to accept all Caucasians expelled from their homelands; or that African countries have to accept any African expelled from his homeland?
This is a big comment rule violation. Listen up: you don’t get to falsely characterize other readers feelings toward any group.
I find this comment borderline racist. You are on a very short leash.
” those who are responsible for the most Palestinian suffering and death are mainly Arab Muslim leaders ”
I find this comment borderline racist. You are on a very short leash
@ Richard, how can you claim this is borderline racist, when the Syrian Prime minster, Khaled al-`Azm, and Abu-Mazen (both i quoted below in a different comment) say that themselves ?
First, no Syrian P.M. ever said precisely what you claim this one did. Period. Second, I don’t know what Abu Mazen said on this subject & I also doubt he said what you claim. But even if he did it wouldn’t surprise me terribly as I don’t find him a credible arbiter of the Palestinian national cause.
Only pro Israel hasbarists advance this argument. I’ve never heard an Arab nationalist do so. And no reputable one would lay more blame at the feet of Arab nations for the refugees plight than at Israel’s. You’re dreaming a hasbarist’s fantasy if you believe otherwise.
Richard, the topic of 1948 is
Thank you, Richard for making that clear. I was thinking the exact same thing as i read through same of the comments.
@ Yoni)
You don’t have to be employed by the State of Israel to be a Hasbara-spinner, and what arguments are you talking about ? This article and the link I posted is about the continuous ethnic cleansing after 1967, and Fuster finds nothing else to say than ‘well, Jews were expulsed from East Jerusalem too’. That was back in ’48, they were about 10.000 in all the West Bank, many recent settlers, and that analogy is typical Hasbara.
And if you think that your ridiculous “there were an estimated 1.000.000 Jews had left the Arab world due to persecution during the time when the Zionist movement had begin to flourish” this is just plain nonsense ! Someone also tried to convince me that Israel was established primarily for the sake of the Mizrahi Jews.
Either you don’t know when the Zionist movement ‘began to flourish’ or when the Jews left the Arab world, or both. Simply nonsense. I didn’t even read all your comment: half way through I’ve had enough of compacted Hasbara and historical distorsions.
Why don’t you listed to this guy, Reuven Abergel, Moroccan Jew, founder of the Black Panthers, and actually member of the Mizrahi Democratic Rainbow Coalition. He has many thing to say about being an Arab Jew id Israel, and why his family left Morocco:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-TdDCVgPKY
It’s in three parts. By the way, I’ve always found it deeply disgusting how the Israeli propaganda uses the Mizrahi to defend their ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, when we all know how the same Mizrahi have been received by the Ashkenaze establishment in Israel (cf. Tom Segev’s “The First Israelis”) and the racism they still endure.
Sorry for “disgusting” you.
Here’s the wikipedia entry on the Jewish exodus from Arab countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries
Aside from calling me a spinner, saying that my claims are “no-sense”, you bring nothing to the table. Were there not around a million Jews who fled Arab countries due to persecution? Are you claiming this is false? In any event, this is relatively a non-issue, as all Jewish refugees have been absorbed in Israel – and for them the dispute is settled, even though they lived in Arab countries for centuries.
Israel was founded for all Jews – Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Ethiopian or otherwise.
As for the account of Abergel, I can bring you even more accounts of people who claim similar things. I will also be able to find around hundred times more Mizrahi people who will say the opposite of what he’s saying. I can also do the same for blacks in America, Turks in Germany and Muslims in Sweden. Among those groups you will find those who are happy and feel part of the society, and you will find some who feel alienated and discriminated against. This is only natural. But in all of the above cases, those groups are an integral part of the society, even if their integration is not smooth. This comes in stark contrast to the Palestinian’s status in Arab countries, whose legal status relegates them to second class citizens, if they are given citizenship at all.
You mean except for the extreme Jewish nationalists who are mounting a campaign for reparations for Arab Jews, don’t you?
That may be what the Declaration of Independence says, but in practice it’s not so. Some Jews are far more equal than others. If what you say was so why are there Ashkenazi Jews who won’t allow their children to sit in the same classroom w. Ethiopian children??
DO NOT. As this again is OFF TOPIC. If you have a burning need to address this issue, set up your own blog. Until then, address the topics of my posts.
I just don’t get it. This file is about the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank after 1967, and you just insist upon ‘discussing’ the Jewish exodus from the Arab countries. How come we’ve seen that dozens of times before ???
“Were there not around a million Jews who FLED Arab countries due to PERSECUTION ? Are you claiming this is false ?”
Yes, I am, and no wikipedia-entry is going to convince me of anything. Just one case:
On the ‘wiki’-entry that you posted it says about Algerian Jews (the case that I know best):
“”Almost all Jews of Algeria left upon independance in 1962, after being deprived of Algerian citizenship by the authorities”. This is simply a manipulation of the truth.
The Algerian Jews had been French citizens since the Décret Crémieux in 1870 – named after a French Jewish politician who ‘lobbied’ for the Algerian Jews to obtain French citizenship with all the privileges that follow in a colonial society where the indigenous people have NO rights. So contrary to all other Arab and Berber natives they were integrated into the colonial society, and when the War of Liberation started in 1954, the Front de Libération National asked the Jews to choose side, they did so again on various occasions with pratically no response, and the Jews left as nearly all other French citizens after a eight-year long and very brutal war. They chose the side of the colonizers – with a few exceptions – and left with them in 1962 after the Accords d’Evian. 90% settled down in France, and not in Israel. The exodus of the Algerian Jews has absolutely nothing in common with the ethinc cleansing of Palestinians, and each case should be studied separately, and seen in the context of decolonization among other things, but I guess that’s too much to ask from you, better stick to ‘wikipedia’.
“The-One-Million-Expulsed-Jews-From-The-Arab-World” has been mentioned by every single Hasbarista coming around, and has taken over the “A land-Without-A-People-For-A-People-Without-A-Land”-spinning.
Palestinians have been integrated in various countries, that’s not the point. The point is that they – or many of them – want to return to Palestine, THEIR country, and if Mizrahi Jews feel perfectly happy in Israel, and have forgotten their homelands, fine, but that has nothing to do with the Palestinians.
Nothing to say about the article on the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, I guess ?
@ DY, how can you claim that Palestinians have been integrated in various countries, that’s not the point. The point is that they – or many of them – want to return to Palestine ? and you call me a spinner ? The countries they fled to, their own brothers and sister (Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan) created legislation to prevent them from integrating. with latest one being Qaddafi that while sending a Human Support ship to Gaza in 2010 imposed restriction and laws about the Palestinians residing in Libya(*).
A 1959 decision by the Arab League that the Palestinian
refugees should not be granted citizenship in their states of refuge has prevented them from integrating into the societies where they live.
http://afrimap.org/english/images/report/OSF_Citizenship_Law_Africa_2ndEd_2010.pdf
and look at this :
“Gaza is the only remnant of our seized country-I wish it had also been taken so that we could at least know that the one who profanes our honour, hurts us and tortures us is the foreign Zionist oppressor, Ben Gurion, and not an Arab brother named Abdel Nasser. Consider the attitude of Nasser’s administration to us and you will find that the Jews under Hitler did not suffer as we do under Nasser. First of all, in order to leave our camps and go to Cairo or to Alexandria or other cities, we have to go through a long drawn-out process. Anyone who requests a travel permit must undergo an inspection and suspicion is cast on his loyalty, scheming and unscrupulous investigators are liable to land in prison anyone who asks for a travel permit.”
Paragraph 87 in this UN document
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/1F199DA24F34E44C85256FCC00526624
* http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1ABA065E-9A08-489C-AE66-343BACEBCD62.htm
The Big Lie technique states : repeat a lie enough times it will become the truth, you (personally) are exercising that method to the max.
Tell me what precisely you know about the term “Arab.” What does it mean? Who are Arabs? What, if any, sense of brotherhood do they have for each other? In short, you don’t know crap about what it means to be an Arab & yr exploitation of the term “brothers” in this context is yet more offensive propaganda.
And why should they feel any obligation to solve a problem created by Israel? Esp. if by doing so they would help Israel lighten the burden of its sin against its own displaced citizens. I repeat, Arabs, whether brothers or not, have no obligation to expiate Israel’s sins. That obligation is entirely on Israel.
And really, what bearing does a 50+ yr old alleged quote about Nasser’s treatment of the Palestinians have to do w anything. Once again, & for what feels the 100th time, stay on topic.
You are now officially done propagandizing on this topic. If you do so again, you will lose yr comment privileges. You may comment in other threads on other subjects. But you may not continue this one. Capiche?
May 14, 2011 at 12:56 PM
@ DY, how can you claim that Palestinians have been integrated in various countries, that’s not the point. The point is that they – or many of them – want to return to Palestine ? and you call me a spinner ? The countries they fled to, their own brothers and sister (Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan) created legislation to prevent them from integrating. with latest one being Qaddafi that while sending a Human Support ship to Gaza in 2010 imposed restriction and laws about the Palestinians residing in Libya(*).
A 1959 decision by the Arab League that the Palestinian
refugees should not be granted citizenship in their states of refuge has prevented them from integrating into the societies where they live.
http://afrimap.org/english/images/report/OSF_Citizenship_Law_Africa_2ndEd_2010.pdf (search for 1959 will get you right there)
and look at this :
“Gaza is the only remnant of our seized country-I wish it had also been taken so that we could at least know that the one who profanes our honour, hurts us and tortures us is the foreign Zionist oppressor, Ben Gurion, and not an Arab brother named Abdel Nasser. Consider the attitude of Nasser’s administration to us and you will find that the Jews under Hitler did not suffer as we do under Nasser. First of all, in order to leave our camps and go to Cairo or to Alexandria or other cities, we have to go through a long drawn-out process. Anyone who requests a travel permit must undergo an inspection and suspicion is cast on his loyalty, scheming and unscrupulous investigators are liable to land in prison anyone who asks for a travel permit.”
Paragraph 87 in this UN document
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/1F199DA24F34E44C85256FCC00526624
The Big Lie technique states : repeat a lie enough times it will become the truth, you (personally) are exercising that method to the max.
Richard, would you have information concerning how many of those 140,000 were residents of Jerusalem…or is your number exclusive of those folks?
My understanding was that the Israelis were/are determined to press the Palestinians out of Jerusalem and not too much worried about the West Bank as a whole.
I don’t know the answer to that. But yes Israel primarily wants to depopulate Palestinian E Jerusalem.
According to Sa’eb Erekat, the report has excluded around 20.000 Palestinian residents of Jerusalem.
And not to forget that the report only mentions the period 1967-1994. I wonder how many has been expelled since.
http://palestineembassyuk.com/?p=7379
No one,
since 1994 all residency issues of Palestinians in the west bank are handled by the Palestinian authority.
all complaints please forward to the Mukataa.
If you read my comment before starting your spinning, you’d see I was referring to East Jerusalem. If you try to tell us that no Palestinians have been expelled from Jerusalem since 1994, you’re simply lying. And concerning the West Bank too. So I conclude: You’re a liar.
You really don’t worth a response.
I wish you good luck and all the best.
what a disgusting level of debate.
East Jerusalem IS part of the West Bank since it will become the new Palestinian capital in time.
Richard you can’t compare East Jerusalem and the West Bank for the purpose of understanding the article. There is a different in status between Palestinians living in east Jerusalem and Palestinians living in the west bank. The Palestinians living in East Jerusalem (those who don’t posses Israeli citizenship) carry permanent Resident Card that grants them their legal rights. The Palestinians living in the West Bank do not.
How lucky we are to have Hala around to explain to us that there’s a difference in status between the Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. We just didn’t have any idea !
She just forgot to mention that the annexation of East Jerusalem by the State if Israel has been recognized by no other country, including their best buddies , the USA, or Palau, Vanuatu or whatsoever. The same for the Golan Heights. So we’re not obliged to analyse East Jerusalem the ‘Israeli’ way, but can stick to the ‘international’ way.
My impression is that while there’s a consistent effort to keep Arab Jerusalemites out, the policy towards West Bank natives is more often subjected to that person’s clan’s degree of co-operation and to the momentary state of the relationship between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.
The interesting question which to which Haaretz’s article doesn’t give the answer is what happened to possessions and other assets of those NLRs (no longer residents). Did the state “socialize” the assets or could the relatives sell the assets and send the money abroad to the rightful owner. These NLRs represented people from the upper wealthier classes.
To little notice is given to the financial side of the ethnic cleansing and state organized and controlled robbery. It is said that much of WW2 on German side was financed with the assets stolen from the Jews. No doubt that it is the same with Israel’s case. Occupation has been and continues to be a lucrative business for the Jewish side in Israel.
We can imagine what would happen if Jewish citizens in any country would be treated in similar ways they have treated Palestinians. Kicking out people whose ancestors have lived in the area for hundreds of years and were born there are not simply “residents” and can be treated as foreigners elsewhere with tourist visa. It was a major scandal in the 30’s when Jews were stripped of their nationality in Germany and transported to the borders. How does this decades long Israeli “tradition” differ from that? A bit more cunningly organized, but morally the exactly the same.
To this 140.000 thousand should be added those NLRs from Gaza, the number which is still a state secret. Anyway we speak about hundreds of thousands, mostly young and educated people.
I don’t think the level of Palesinian wealth comes close to anything in Germany. I doubt that this so-called wealth financed much of anything.
It appears the Palestinians lost residency if they were gone over 6 months. They were gone. Not loaded into a cattle cars and transported. And it dos not seem that the scandal in Germany was major.
In fact, there is little in common between the Jews in Germany and the Arabs in the Palestinian territories.
This is false, offensive & racist. You are on a short leash.
That’s not nearly the pt for me. Palestinians were displaced from their homeland. This is ethnic cleansing. It may not be genocide but does that make it anywhere close to being acceptable??
someone please enlighten me:
how do ethnic cleansing (nice/not-nice) and genocide relate to each other definitionally? also how do they relate to each other (a) generally, (b) in international law, (c) in israeli law, (d) in hitler’s nazi law, and (e) in US 17th and 18th century law towards the native american population.
please note: i am serious and have no time for superficial smart alec comments. thanks.
@ Sinbad)
When the “Resolution for the Prevention and the Repression of the Crime of Genocide” (resolution 260A III) was adopted in 1948, only the part concerning ‘the physical aspect of genocide’ was adopted, but in the works of Raphael Lemkin – the base of the resolution – and in his own proposal for the resolution, the cultural and psychological aspects of genocide are included.
Lemkin defines genocide as the following:
> “Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation.
It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves.
The objectives of such a plan would be desintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, langage, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.
Genocide is directed against the national group as an entity, and the actions involved are directed against individuals, not in their individual capacity, but as members of the national group”
>>Genocide has two phases: one, destruction of the national pattern of the oppressed group, the other, the imposition of the national pattern of the oppressors. This imposition may be made upon the oppressed population which is allowed to remain or upon the territory alone after removal of the population and the colonization by the oppressors’ own nationals”
This second part of Lemkin’s defintion of genocide is perfectly describing the Palestinian situation, and some intellectuals do use the concept to describe it. A French anthropologist, Robert Jaulin, has popularized the concept of ethnocide, that is cultural genocide, and it’s currently used too.
This is a very sensitive topic, and I just want to make clear that I’m NOT trying to compare the Jewish genocide and what’s happening to the Palestinians.
Are any of Lemkin’s musings that were not included in resolution 260A III legally binding? Plus I think it’s important to note that Ethnic Cleansing is a crime against humanity and that such crimes are war crimes – ie in order to be so defined, they have to take place in the context of an active conflict. Genocide however, is viewed as physical annihilation and is a crime regardless of when it occurs. This is admittedly quite an over simplification, but it is important to note the differences between the two designations, particularly as these play out in the real world. For instance, many nations did not call the 800,000 estimated deaths in Rwanda a Genocide because in doing so they would be forced to take action, and so they labeled that situation a “civil war” instead. Just some food for thought…
“This is a very sensitive topic, and I just want to make clear that I’m NOT trying to compare the Jewish genocide and what’s happening to the Palestinians.”
Sure, of course yet you bare the pen name Deir Yassin. what really happened in Deir Yassin, did the Jews massacred 250 people, raping women and killing women and children as was claimed by Hazem Nusseibeh and Dr. Hussein Khalidi ?
or was it just another part of the war ? yes people died and it was horrible.
the following is part of a BBC program called 50 years of war, i guess the conscious of Mr. Nusseibeh wasn’t that clean, so he admits for fabricating the all thing. the influence on the Palastinian society was devastating, most of them left. Don’t take my word for it, just see what Mr. Nusseibeh, says.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkhSHiwzaIY&feature=related
Richard may find it a bit off topic, if he does i do apologize, i discovered this video today for the first time, and i am still a bit shocked.
I doubt that anyone listening to that link will be coming away with a true impression of what happened at Deir Yassin, Hala.
That there were false reports of rape should not obscure that there were 100 or more people murdered at that village.
And that damned link implies that the 700,000 who fled were sent running by the false reports of rape. That’s simply a crock of s#!t.
Well thank you for that, Fuster. Good to know you feel that way about this subject.
Fuester – about time you’ll expend your History sources.
Following is the historical record. From Allen Elias’ research in a Usenet Newsgroup: Abu Mazen wrote in an article entitled “Madha `Alamna wa-Madha Yajib An Na`mal” [What We Have Learned and What We Should Do], published in “Falastineth-Thawra” [Revolutionary Palestine], the official journal of the PLO, Beirut, March 1976, “The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland…The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people.”
Khaled al-`Azm, who served as Prime Minister of Syria in 1948 and 1949, wrote in his memoirs (published in Beirut, 1973), that among the reasons for the Arab failure in 1948 was “the call by the Arab Governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and to leave for the bordering Arab countries, after having sown terror among them…Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave…We have brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees, by calling upon them and pleading with them to leave their land, their homes, their work and business…” (Part 1, pp. 386-387).
700,000 Arabs left Palestine in fear, i will agree with that, but if you will bother learning what happened in Haifa, you will see that both the Jewish leaders and the English command of the city, were trying to convince the Arabs to stay. I think it was the Haggana who actually ordered the bakeries to bake Pita bread for the Arabs (and delivered it) as it was during passover.
Richard your claim about the new historian is a bit funny, their work was refuted as back as the year 2000 by Prof. Efraim Karsh who demonstrated that their work was substandard in academic terms, how they deliberately twisted quotes from their sources etc. he actually wrote a book titled Fabricating Israeli History: The “New Historians” (Cass, 1997; second edition 1999);
I know Richard is going to question his credential well He has held various academic posts at Harvard and Columbia universities, the Sorbonne, the London School of Economics, Helsinki University, the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London, the Kennan Institute for Advanced Russian Studies in Washington D.C., and the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University.
as for Deir Yessin, there was a rigorous fight over that village, the reason it was attacked was that Deir Yessin was a supply base for Abdel Kader El-Hussaini gang. there was a very hard fight over the village. the Irgun won the fight and the other side was trying to leverage it for political reasons.
ii’m willing to bet you never heard the name of Dr. Hussein Khalidi and that you are totally unaware of the role he played within the Palestinian leadership, hence you can’t even digest the you tube movie that you saw.
Richard, i am sorry this is the last word i said on the subject, it’s extremely hard to debate anything with you, when you don’t agree either a subject is off topic or based on unworthy / not credible resources. when i see such lack of knowledge i am simply astonished.
Hala, you would lose your bet. I understand about the guerilla campaign and the Israeli need to clear their own supply routes and I’ve read a couple of things about Deir Yassin.
it was a fight and when it was over, and the village captured and the palestinians disarmed and helpless, 100 were executed.
Israelis started out with better intentions toward the Palestinians than those with which they ended the war, Hala. That’s not exactly unusual or unexpected or something that you should overlook.
Whatever the real reason, the necessities of war and other considerations caused the Israelis to clear out the Palestinian villages that posed actual OR possible threats to their lines of supply and movement.
What were calls from the Arab side to send women and children to safety until after the war accounts for the smaller part of the refugees.
see Benny Morris’ “1948”.
(I’m expending as fast as I can)
It’s turning into a death people argument, You disregarded the Syrian prime-minster statements, you ignored Abu-Mazen own statements.
as for Deir Yassin, i read Benni Morris to, you should read Uri Milstein who refute all the arguments made by Meir Pa’il, Morris and others. you can read part of it here
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/milstein-deir-yassin.htm
as for Benni Morris, he claims that Plan D’ was never intended for ethnic cleansing, and those who claim that based on his book, are mis-using his work and doing so deliberately. http://www.beyondimages.info/b211.html
i’m done with this specific argument.
Oh lord, we’re not going to refight the 1948 War here. If that’s yr purpose you can do that 1,000 other places.
Deir Yassin was a seminal massacre that began the Nakba & it’s recognized & documented as such by all the ISRAELI new historians.
It IS off topic. WAY off topic & just because a video interests you doesn’t mean it interests any of us. Keep everything you write & post here ON TOPIC.