The Shabak removed the gag order about the suspects it arrested (one 12 days ago and one 7 days ago) in the Itamar murders. It revealed that it charged two boys from the extended Awad family (though not directly related):
Israeli security forces have arrested two teenage residents of the West Bank Arab village of Awarta for allegedly carrying out last month’s murder of five family members in the settlement of Itamar, the lifting of a gag order revealed on Sunday.
Palestinian students Amjad Awad, 19, and Hakim Awad 18, both admitted to committing the murder.
…The two suspects, who are unrelated to one another, were identified as members of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine along with several members of their family.
Shin Bet investigators have at this point not identified the murder as being carried out under the auspices of the Popular Front organization. According to what is currently known, the murders were carried out independently by the two suspects.
I wrote a post two days ago based on information provided me from a source who told me the motive for the killings was robbery (that’s the motive I couldn’t report at the time). As this German source says:
Israeli Colonel Nimrod Aloni said in a telephone briefing…the two suspects are believed to have acted on their own and had initially planned to penetrate the settlement only to steal weapons, he said. The murder of the family, he believed, happened along the way.
It appears as sometimes happens that the IDF has a different interpretation of the crime than the Shabak. The latter naturally has even more of a need to create a narrative of terror and blood lust than the IDF. Though nothing can justify the murders themselves, it does appear that this was a crime, as my source originally told me, of theft gone wrong.
In this separate Haaretz article, the Shabak again takes great pains to point to one conspirator’s evident intent to kill Jews, while playing down the second conspirator’s intent to commit robbery:
The minor, Hakim Awad, made a different claim. His confession appears to indicate that he regarded the incident as a burglary and the theft of weapons. But when they thought they had been caught, the break-in turned into murder.
The difference between the two versions may not be that significant…but either way this was a case of premeditated murder.
Note the throwaway interpolation by Amos Harel, which clearly indicates the prejudice inherent in the Israeli perspective on the crime. It may be a moot point for an Israeli justice system which tends to grind down and spit out terror suspects; but in most legal systems, a suspect who didn’t premeditate murder would have a meaningful mitigating factor in consideration of his sentence. And contrary to Harel’s erroneous claim, Hakim did not premeditate murder. He did participate in murders, but that wasn’t in his mind, according to him, when he started out.
Also, in Haaretz’s version of the story the boys knew there were other children in the home but hurried away and did not kill them for fear of being detected. In the German media account, also based on a Shabak source, the killers noticed the children and deliberately did not kill them.
For those right-wingers who may be disgusted by the points I’m raising, don’t forget that you (if you’re Israeli) live in a so-called democracy in which a man is innocent till proven guilty and that he is entitled to the strongest possible legal defense, even if accused of cold-blooded murder. That seems lost on many of our far-right friends who believe that hanging is too good for ’em. So yes, what is in a criminal’s mind when he commits a crime is important. Though perhaps it’s not to you.
My source also told me that the suspects were linked to the crime scene by DNA evidence.
It should be noted that the Shabak has published a lie in its own account of its investigation saying only that “tens” of residents of Awarta were arrested, when the number is well north of 100 and probably closer to 200 or more. The statement also does not mention the wholesale devastation wrought by the combined Shabak, IDF and police forces who ransacked virtually all the homes in the village, destroyed furniture and major appliances and wreaked all manner of havoc in pure acts of collective punishment and vengeance.
Shabak reveals that the uncle of one of the suspects was killed by the IDF in 2003 for his alleged involvement in several murders that occurred in Itamar. It doesn’t say that the uncle was killed in cold blood, as usually the army claims those killed were armed and resisted. However, often this is not the case and the victims are not armed, but are killed through the “justice of the gun.”
Despite the fact that a villager the suspects approached in hopes of procuring a weapon for the attack didn’t help them, the former was arrested as well and will likely spend years in jail for his trouble.
This was an act of insanity. An act that could only be committed by someone literally insane or teenagers out to prove their manhood to their elders and comrades.
One of the other tragedies of this incident is that the killers used weapons they stole from another settler home to kill the Fogel parents.
It would be more accurate and just of you to use the term “alleged killers”. Given the gross measures used by the Shin Bet and the IDF to procure the confessions, it is by no means assured that the teenagers did in fact commit the murders.
My source tells me they had DNA evidence that links the suspects to the crime scene, plus they confessed. I don’t know what happened. And they are innocent till proven guilty. But I think it’s likely they have the right people.
I did use the term “suspects” many times in this story.
Any word about how they passed inside a secure settlement? Or how or why the settlements was not secure? This has got to be very interesting to the settlers there and elsewhere. And also to people around the world who buy Israel security products.
I’ve heard diff stories about this. One says they chose to clip the wires at a point where there was a gap in the video surveillance system. Another says, the alert system worked & the security personnel came to the spot & couldn’t detect anything amiss & left the scene.
I also think it’s a bit infantilizing to call young men of 18 and 19 “boys”?
Again, one is a minor under Israeli law. A minor is a “boy” regardless of what you might prefer to call him. Of course I believe he made choices and should pay the price for those choices. But I very much doubt many 50 or 60 yr old Palestinian fathers or grandfathers would make the same choices. That was my point.
All the stories I’ve read and heard – including the video-interview with the mayor of Itamar and his wife that I posted a couple of days ago, say that they jumped the wire. Both the mayor and his wife are answering this very clearly: no wire was clipped, they jumped it.
They were apparently both members of the Popular Front. I wonder whether the Israelis are going to track down the whole organization now.
According to Maan, one of the boys went through a operation back in November, and still had difficulties to walk correctly. I wonder how he could jump that wire. I hope this is true.
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=379506
Latest news:
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=379776
Deir Yassin,
in many police investigation associated with murders, there is a lot of incorrect information released by sometimes the police itself. the reason behind it is that after a suspect is captured during the reconstruction of th event, only someone with first hand knowledge would be able to do it in the right way despite the information that was released to the public.
i believe that some of the information in this case was intentionally wrong.
That comment was supposed to be an answer to a prior comment. Sorry.
Your account does not hold up under investigation. The young men, not boys, were fully aware of what they were doing. If it was just a robbery, why did they end up stabbing the children to death ? How did they enter the house ? Which people did they encounter first ? Did the children wake up upon them entering the room ? It may have been a planned robbery that turned into a satanic killing frenzy similar but different in original intent to the Manson cult murders of Sharon Tate and the four others in 1969 ? The exact second by second chronology of events on that night is important. All acts of violence can be deconstructed. All crimes have a motive, means and opportunity. If they were not under direct orders from a terrorist/political cell then this is a positive in an extremely dark episode in the Holy Land. In any case they must be punished severely. Murder is a result of poor mindset and setting, but free will is a divine gift. Some lines should never be crossed.
Either you’re ignorant or a liar. One of them is a minor under Israeli law & it says this on the Shabak website no less. Care to retract that statement? If you know Hebrew you can follow the link & read it yrself. An IDF colonel wrote that it started out as a robbery. Don’t blame me if you don’t like the answer. Take it up with him. And why don’t you bother reading the accounts of the crime which are linked here before asking questions which make clear you didn’t do so.
I find it interesting that you would call it a Manson-like Satanic cult killing. Do you also do that when Palestinians are murdered in their beds by IDF soldiers as has happened on a number of occassions? Why is that only Palestinians are Satanic killing machines but an Israeli isn’t capable of doing the same thing?
I wonder if the neighbors, who left the guns and ammo in an empty house, would be prosecuted for their part in the attack. I doubt it.
So many questions remain. I would nit pick but this is all just too tragic. The Fogel family has been decimated in the most brutal and senseless manner imaginable, and two young men’s lives will be forever altered. This didn’t have to happen.
It’s worth mentioning that according to Amjad Awad’s confession he carried out this terrorist attack knowing full well that there’s a chance he would be killed in the process. He also confessed that if he had seen the other 2 children who were sleeping in the house at the time he would have killed them too. After killing 4 people he did go back to the Fogel house to steal a second weapon. It was then that he noticed the baby and murdered her. This is not the actions of a thief. A thief wouldn’t have killed the baby after already obtaining the 2 M-16s. When asked on his actions Amjad replied that “we murdered 5 Israeli Jews regardless of their ages. He did not express regret. These too, are not the actions of a thief. (The coverage on Channel 2 with all the claims above – http://reshet.ynet.co.il/%D7%97%D7%93%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/news/Politics/Security/Article,66871.aspx)
Concerning the relative who was asked to supply the weapon- he was arrested for knowing their intentions to commit the attack and not reporting about it. In that aspect the arrest is justified.
This is contradicted not only by the Haaretz report, but by the Deutsche Presse account. I don’t know who Channel 2 interviewed who made this claim. But I DO know that my 2 sources contradict whatever you’re claiming.
Sorry, but you & I both know that if the situation had been reversed and a cousin came to either of us & asked for a gun neither of us would report him to a state we each believe to be our enemy. We might yell and scream at him for his stupidity. But we would never report him.
Only fantasy land in Israel. In other democratic countries it happens pretty much that way every day.
Are you nuts? I condemned the killings and yet you want me to go into the gruesome details? For what purpose? If you need blood & guts go to Debka File. YOu’ll get it in spades there. This is not Arutz Sheva, in case you’ve forgotten.
You acknowledge it “may be true” that I “bring only the facts,” & then say I’m not objective. And btw, who is objective regarding this conflict? Please point me to a single serious observer of this conflict who feigns objectivity.
Speak for yourself Richard. Maybe you wouldn’t report a relative who intends to murder but I will. I think any lobical law abiding citizens should act the same way. Anyone who doesn’t should be prosecuted. Needless to say that notwithstanding your beliefs, it is legal to prosecute someone on those charges. The excerpts from the Channel 2 report are parts of the investigation. I’m sorry, but I think Channel 2’s military reporter is more reliable than a German newspaper conerning the West Bank and Shabak.
I don’t know to what accusations you reply, I never made such accusations.
@ Job)
So you’re trying to convince us, that if you lived in the Yishouv, and a cousin of yours was preparing an attack against the Brits, you would turn him in …to the Brits ??
Or if you lived in France during the WWII, you’d denounce a relative preparing an attack on the Germans to the German military occupiers ?
I simply don’t believe you. You talk about law abiding citizens, what a joke. Those paramilitary settlers are a daily plague to the Palestinians, and Israel is NOT their state, but an occupying country.
I’m not trying to justify the murder of the children. It’s unforgivable, and the killer/killers should have a life sentence. For killing the children …
Your comment shows how little you know about the Yeshuv.
there was a period in the history of the Yesguv known as The Hunting Season or The Saison (Hebrew: הסזון, short for French: la saison de chasse) was the name given to the Haganah’s suppression of the Irgun’s insurgency against the government of the British Mandate in Palestine.
Members of the Hagana did exactly what Job said he would do.
It’s not at all the same situation. We’re talking about an Israeli who justifies the imprisonment of a Palestinian who committed no crime other than not informing on his own flesh & blood to the Occupation regime. The Hunting Season was an mini civil war between Zionist factions. Sure one side gave up those on the other side to the British. But the “crime” we’re talking about has nothing in common with the warring between the Haganah & Lehi/Etzel factions.
Tell me what would’ve happened had Begin’s uncle or Ben Gurion’s uncle informed on them to the British and caused them to be arrested. I bet those uncles wouldn’t exactly be “feeling the love” from their fellow pre-State Israeli Jews.
Come on people. Yes, if Ben-Gurion’s intentions were to infiltrate a civilian settlement (legitimate or not is irrelevant) and to kill babies or any civilian for that matter I would expect his uncle to turn him over. I would. The same goes for your pathetic (and frankly quite insulting and despicable) parallel to WWII. We are not talking about “military occupiers” (as you so ignorantly and furiously try to convince yourself) but about civilians. Whether they have the right to be there or not doesn’t justify these acts. Their intentional murder is of the basest crimes. You may claim to denounce the murder Yassin, but this comment and others you’ve posted prove to me that you are deceiving both of us. I don’t think people like you would have condemned the murder if only the adults would’ve been killed. That my friend makes you a hypocrite! It is comforting to know that even hypocrites have their red lines. No doubt the line crossed here was red with blood.
You’re a liar. So if Begin’s uncle knew he was planning the Deir Yassin massacre, or Shamir’s uncle got wind of the King David bombing (in both incidents many civilians were murdered), your claim is that they should’ve reported them to the British? Give me a break. You simply don’t even pass the smell test for credibility.
Besides, the uncle didn’t know what the boys intended to do with the gun.
While I don’t defend the murder of the Fogel family, calling the community of Itamar as a whole a civilian village like Petah Tikvah is entirely disingenuous. This is one of the most lethally violent, hate-filled communities in the Territories which has murdered many, many Palestinians over the yrs. & stolen thousands of dunams of their village land. These are not Girl & Boy Scouts we’re talking about, & certainly not civilians in the sense that residents of Tel Aviv or Haifa are civilians.
No one is justifying killing this family. But the plain facts of the matter is that this settlement has no right to be there, that it is an armed camp, that its own weapons were turned on its own residents because it is armed to the teeth & residents didn’t have the sense to maintain their weapons under lock & key. Itamar is a little Sparta, a Judean Sparta. Sparta repels me. It lives by the sword and dies by it as well. Not to mention that it kills with that sword as well.
This is a grave breach of my comment rules. If someone says they believe something you MAY NOT claim they are lying. Especially with no credible proof of your claim. The next time you violate the comment rules you will be moderated; and any further breaches will further restrict yr privileges here.
I find this deeply offensive as you have absolutely no idea what another person would or would not do in a given hypothetical situation that never happened.
@ Job)
The Itamar-killings have already been debated here, and I have thus had the opportunity to state what I condemn and what I don’t condemn. As I don’t want to break Richard’s comment rules, I’m not going to repeat what I wrote, and I suggest you go back and find the discussion (the file: Itamar-turn-victims-into-national-blood-sacrifice).
It’s always a good idea to read a minimum of comments before calling people hypocrites, but I’ve realized that the Israeli chutzpah has NO limits when it comes to name-calling.
And if I understand correctly, your theoretical standpoint on law-abiding people only concerned a specific case involving the killing of three children. Then you can safely play the law-abiding person because you’ll never get the occasion to prove it. As I said: purely theoretical.
And why is my example of the Yishouv valuable, and the one of WWII quite “insulting and despicable” ? Because you’re incapable of thinking of WWII without thinking of the Holocaust ? Personally, I don’t see where the German occupation of France is an more ‘insulting ans despicable’ example than the other. Are you trying to reach Godwin’s Law in your fifth or sixth comment here ?
And when I mentioned ‘Military occupiers’ I didn’t talk about the settlers – and you know that very well – but about the State of Israel which IS occupying the West Bank – according to international law. If I really wanted to push it far, I could state that settlers live in occupied territories voluntarily and of their free will whereas a young German was enrolled in the Wehrmacht whether he wanted it or not, deserting would be risking his life.
You state you would have turned Ben Gourion in if his intention was killing civilians. Wow, you must be tormented about the Nakba then. With such a high morality …
Richard, don’t be a hypocrite. You start your comment with the sentence “You’re a liar.” and end it with “This is a grave breach of my comment rules. If someone says they believe something you MAY NOT claim they are lying. Especially with no credible proof of your claim.” You keep confusing SPECULATIONS with FACTS. Or do you, as the author of the blog, have the privilege to break your own rules. You are a good journalist with bad logic.
“I find this deeply offensive as you have absolutely no idea what another person would or would not do in a given hypothetical situation that never happened.”
And yet in your comment on the other post you did exactly that to me: “If you were the uncle of a Jewish boy in the Yishuv… you would NOT have reported him to the British authorities. Plain & simple.”
Have the Fogel family killed anyone? NO!! Even if someone from Itamar did commit murder (and I’m not entirely aware of the facts so I won’t argue about them) the victims were plain civilians which were armed to defend themselves from precisely these kinds of acts. Saying otherwise is just twisting the logic so it will fit your agenda. Maybe their village isn’t as legitimate as Tel-Aviv but their lives should be as legitimate as anyone’s.
STOP WITH THE DOUBLE STANDARTS RICHARD. BE FAIR.
Sorry, but if you say you are a Zionist I will not allow someone to say you’re lying. If you say you abhor the killing of someone, I will not allow anyone else to say you are lying. Nor will I allow anyone to say that about someone who supports Palestinians. Again, that is a lie. I will not allow someone to say I’m anti-Zionist or anti-Israeli or a propagandist for Palestinian. IT’s simply a lie & not acceptable.
As for saying you wouldn’t report a nephew to the British during the Yishuv, you’ve a perfect right to say otherwise. But there’s a reason why you haven’t, because you wouldn’t.
Itamar has a record of tremendous violence against surrounding villages including murder, shootings, & expulsion of the entire village of Yanoun. So sorry, I don’t see anyone in Itamar as a civilian in the same sense that Petah Tikvah residents are civilians. I would not countenance slaughtering the residents of Itamar, but they are not fully innocent civilians.
Far from legitimate, the lives of settlers are forfeit.
They are demons from the darkest pits of hell.
Clearly you do not understand what the occupation is. It is not some bureaucratic dispute. It is not some archaic ethnic feud. It is not a difference of opinion in the interpretation of international law. It is not even a military conflict.
It is a torment, a heinous crime, that human beings, like you and I know them, are not capable of committing.
Only monsters do such things. Monsters, you should know, do not have rights of any kind.
These are human beings, not monsters. What they do may be monstrous if they kill Palestinians or steal their land. But they are not monsters & they HAVE rights as human beings. Rights not to be killed in their sleep. Their lives are NOT forfeit & I am offended as a human being that you should say that here.
That being said, I do not countenance settlements or settlers living where they do & they should be removed immediately by whatever means are necessary. But murder in cold blood while sleeping in one’s home? No, sorry. Not that.
Well, prehaps you’ll change your mind when they start building death camps.
It will be over my dead body (I hope not literally).
This kind of generalization, Richard, is ridiculous. That’s like saying the people of Awatra aren’t civilians. This is the third terrorist attack on Itamar by people from Awatra. Maybe people from the village even conducted attacks on other places. The fact that there are murderers who hail from Awatra doesn’t mean the ones who aren’t shouldn’t be considered as civilians. By your logic all of the people of Awatra are responsible for the Fogels’ murder just as all of the people of Itamar are responsible for the expulsion in Yanoun. That is obviously ridiculous. Moreover, your logic might lead to the legitimization of collective punishment. If all of the people of a settlement are responsible, they should all be punished. This is bad logic, it’s wrong in realtion to Awatra, Itamar or any other place. I’m not saying you support collective punishment, I claim that your logic does.
Not at all. No one except extremist settlers claim the residents of Awarta aren’t legal residents of their village & legal owners of their land. Itamar is nowhere near the same category since the entire international community & most governments say settlers, esp. those engaging in acts of violence & homicide are not considered legal. The status of the 2 places is entirely diff. Awarta was there before Itamar. When the settlers came that’s when the violence began. Itamar stole their lands, killed them. And Awarta responded in kind. You reap what you sow.
The ideology of Itamar is based on dispossessing Palestinians & taking over their land. This is the extremist settler ideology. There is no ideology in Awarta except resistance to losing their lands & their lives. The only punishment suitable for Itamar collectively is to force them back inside the Green Line where they belong. They can build a new settlement inside the Negev or wherever they like inside Israel’s legal boundary as recognized by most international precedents.
@ Job)
You just don’t seem to get it, do you ??
Itamar is constructed on stolen Palestinian land. I know that Israelis mostly don’t even consider the Green Line any longer, but outside Israel, this is considered illegal, and every adult settler knows – or should know – that he’s participating in the continuing dispossession of the Palestinans. That’s why many of them are living there by the way, and those in Itamar are ideological settlers, and not just looking for cheap housing. Not that it does any difference to the Palestinians why they are bestolen.
Transferring civilian populations into a conquered territory is ILLEGAL according to the Fourth Geneva Convention. That’s why the condemnation of killing settlers is not the same. They are not plain civilians.
You’re still missing my point. If I understand you correctly, the only difference between the two generalizations is that the people of Itamar started the cycle of violence. Again, while that might be true, it has nothing to do with your logic. If one person from Itamar kills a person from Awarta it doesn’t mean that his grandson or neighbor share the responsibility, and vice versa. The teenager who admits going on a killing spree against Jews is also driven by an ideology of his own. Awatrans can’t all be prosecuted as a consequence.
You claim the settlers aren’t civilians because of the acts of some of them and because their village ideology. Adhering to an ideology on its own doesn’t mean you are fair game. And I’m sorry but stealing of land doesn’t mean it either, not if it was done by the Fogels, or just their neighbors and certainly not because it’s the agenda of the place they choose to live in. Neither does it mean you’re not a civilian. Maybe they have opinions you disagree with, you might even consider them criminals, but they are civilians nonetheless.
Putting the ideology aside and judging merely by actions we get people on both sides that’d done wrong (stole land, harassed, murdered etc.) As I explained if one person commits an act you can’t go after the neighbor. It’s the logical equivalent of shooting a random African American just because a man with the same skin color stole my car. The people from Itamar who’d committed crimes might be civilian (!) criminals, but the Fogels (As far as we know) committed no such acts.
As for your finale point: Maybe the international community doesn’t recognize the legitimacy of the settlements but that still doesn’t mean the settlers aren’t civilians. To conclude, even if all you’re saying is right, we’re still talking about a civilian (!!) family; their only proven “crimes” are living in an illegitimate place, next to possible criminals and adhering to an ideology which you deem criminal, without acting on it. Except for the first condition (which doesn’t make them any different from a person squatting your building) I can find people like that in Tel-Aviv, Awatra and I’m sure even in Seattle. None of these make them any less civilian or attacking them any more legitimate.
MANY (not “one person”) residents of Itamar have killed & injured many in Awarta. And it is part of a Judean settlerist ideology shared by all or most of Itamar’s inhabitants that motivates them to engage in such homicidal violence. Any hate in Awarta directed at Itamar stems from these acts of violence & the villagers understanding of these annihilationist ideology directed at them. Again, I’m not justifying the Fogel murders, but the plain fact of the matter is that we have to get these people out of there if they’re intent on causing a holy war between Muslims & Jews in the West Bank. If we don’t, there will be many more such murders not just of Jews, but of Muslims as well.
I’m afraid if you make your bed by choosing to live in a place that is a hotbed of extremist hate & violence, then you have to lie in it. If you live in Itamar, you understand what you’re getting yourself into. It’s not like making a decision to move from Tel Aviv to Petah Tikvah. This is more like a decision to move to Stalingrad during the Nazi siege. You go there with yr eyes open. You go there because you share the ideology and the reputation of the place for extremism. And if you don’t know this, then you’re either abysmally ignorant or naive on a colossal scale.
I see the residents of Itamar as a time-bomb, one that you know will explode & do so not once but many times. They are like the fire in the movie theater, which you know will burn the place down & incinerate all the moviegoers. They are a disaster waiting to happen & that has already happened.
Say what? Palestinians have stolen land? Whose? And when?
“Only fantasy land in Israel. In other democratic countries it happens pretty much that way every day.”
My point was that Shabak didn’t know who were the killers and he couldn’t have come to their house and quietly arrest them. To catch the murderers around 200 people were arrested, there was no other way. I’m very glad that the killers where arrested, Shabak did an excellent job with what information he had.
“Are you nuts? I condemned the killings and yet you want me to go into the gruesome details? For what purpose?”
We wouldn’t hear the details not because you don’t want it on your blog, but because you wouldn’t dedicate so many words for something that would create sympathy toward settlers and Israelis. I’m 100% that if a nutcase soldier would do something similar in Awarta we would read a description of it minute by minute. Think about it for a second and be honest. Not with your readers, but with yourself.
Objectivity is not only presenting the facts but give both sides equal coverage.
I don’t think there is such a thing as 100% objective media but at least i see some that try to. Like channel 10, channel 2, Haarez. I will point this again, I don’t claim those media’s are objective but when I open the news I hear both sides.
Are you trying to be objective?
Nonsense, utter nonsense. The Shabak destroyed the interiors of virtually all the homes in the village. When you come to interrogate someone you can knock on the door & tell them what you need them to do. Instead, of barging in & trashing their home searching for God knows what. There is such a thing as derech eretz which many police forces & intelligence agencies observe in similar situations, even when there’s been a killing or killings. If you lived in Awarta & had nothing to do with the murders & received the same treatment you wouldn’t be so understanding. In fact, you’d be pissed, esp. at the bill for reparing the damage caused by the hooligans who destroyed virtually everything inside yr home.
In any other democracy in the world the Shabak chief would be fired by now for the pogrom in Awarta.
I don’t describe killings in gruesome detail period. That’s not what I go in for. Again, if you need that there are plenty of pro Israel & pro Palestinian sites where you can find it on both sides. If that’s what you need go there. You won’t find it here. You are insulting & offensive if you are claiming I have no sympathy for Israelis. I am deeply offend by that crack & take it very personally. I’m warning you.
No, YOU be honest. I’ve chronicled Israeli massacres numerous times here & I never go into gory details, even if the victim is Palestinian. I don’t do it for either side. It’s hucksterism & pandering to the lowest common denominator.
This isn’t Haaretz. I don’t aim for neutrality. Again, if that’s what you want go find it in your home newspaper. People don’t read blogs for neutrality. They read it for a point of view.
My guess is that they were looking for the M16 that was stolen from the Fogels family neighbor.
And yes, I would be pissed, I would be pissed and ashamed that people from my village, my neighbors are baby-killers who brought this shit storm on us.
“They read it for a point of view”
I’m glad you said that, maybe I was the only one who gave you the credit and thinking objectivity is important to you. But now I understand, Tikun Olam is no more than a propaganda blog for the Palestinians. You choose which facts you present, what sources to quot (only the ones who serve your purpose), and you never forget to victimize the Palestinians.
Sure you would be pissed. But that’s not what I asked. WOuld you, as their uncle report them to the IDF? If you say yes, then you don’t know what you’re talking about since you wouldn’t know that they intended to kill babies before the incident actually happened.
No one is objective, least of all you. At least I take into account the Israeli majoritarian pts of view even if I disagree.
You’ve violated a major comment rule which is not to lie & directly contradict what I say about my own beliefs. Saying that this blog is a proapganda outlet for ANYONE is a violation of my comment rules because it is a lie. I do not countenance lies or liars like you. YOu will henceforth be moderated & any subsequent violations will result in losing yr comment privileges.
I don’t “victimize” Palestinians. Israel does a good enough job at that so as not to need any help from me.
@ ek)
You clearly have NO clue about how the Palestinians consider this conflict if you think that “Tikun Olam” is no more than a propaganda blog for the Palestinians”. Absolutely no clue.
Richard is concerned about this conflict, first and foremost, because he’s concerned about the Jewish people and the State of Israel is important to him as an expression of Jewish national statehood. And he’s concerned about what some fellow Jews (the Israelis) do to the Other in the name of Judaim and Jewish values.
This is absolutely NOT the attitude that Palestinians have to Israel. They have no interest in the state of Israel for other reasons that it was established on their land.
“This is contradicted not only by the Haaretz report, but by the Deutsche Presse account. I don’t know who Channel 2 interviewed who made this claim. But I DO know that my 2 sources contradict whatever you’re claiming.”
It was published all over, from Ynet to NRG (http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4057791,00.html)
as for your ridiculous claim that it was a gun theft went wrong:
1. The two murderers entered Itamar and first penetrated the an empty house, from which they stole an M-16 and other combat gear.
2. if all they wanted was to steal weapons they would have went back to Awarta, instead they penetrated the Fogel family house, slain the two boys, shoot the parents and left.
3. as they stepped out they saw the patrol car and were afraid they will be detected. they re-entered the fogel House, and as the 3 months baby was crying, they slain her two.
Enough with your vicious spin.
The claim that it was a gun theft gone wrong isn’t “my claim,” but rather that of a Colonel in the IDF who is named in the Deutsche Presse account. Why don’t you look him up & berate him & call HIM ridiculous for saying these things. I bet you don’t have the stomach to accuse an IDF colonel of “vicious spin,” do you? Didn’t think so. The “spin” is his. I merely agree with his account. If you don’t like the message don’t shoot the messenger.
I didn’t say they didn’t murder people. I only said the IDF claimed, & at least one of the suspects confirmed, that the ORIGINAL intent was robbery & not murder.
Please pay attention to details
1. The German reporter you quoted, claim the interview was given to him in a phone conversation, i have serious doubts such an event ever took place. simply because IDF colonels do not have the time to talk to each reporter over the phone.
2. No where in the items published in Hebrew there is anything similar to such a claim.
3. The reason you published this is simple, taking the event at face value an attempt to kill five jews as brought by Roni Daniel in arutz 2 (how has far better sources with the Shabak / IDF, then you or an anonymous German reporter, no name of the reporter is shown anywhere in the “atricle”)
will prohibit you from your spinning “his was an act of insanity. An act that could only be committed by someone literally insane or teenagers out to prove their manhood to their elders and comrades.”
This was an act of hatred, calculated and executed in cold blood, as stated by the two murderers themselves.
You should have been a lawyer.
First, my own source, who is an Israeli journalist gave me the same story. He said it was a robbery gone wrong. THough he did not tell me who his source was, without doubt it was someone liasing with press fr. the IDF. Second, unless you can prove Deutsche Presse’s report is fraudulent or wrong, it’s credible. Period. THe reason this doesn’t appear in the Hebrew press is that they undoubtedly received most of their briefing fr. Shabak, which has a vested interest in presenting this story as a lurid tale of a terror conspiracy.
You don’t have a clue who my source is. My source has credentials just as good as Roni Daniel. Who was Roni Daniel’s source? Go ask him.
This is a LIE as proven by the direct characterization of the testimony of the minor who says it was not premeditated as you claim. If you repeat this lie again you will be moderated.
I really don’t understand your logic. After reading the post I almost felt sorry for the murderers. it’s not the original motive.. young boys.. the village was vandalized.. hundred of arrests..
I also would like the Shabak go straight to the killers house, knock on their door, saying “can you please come with us?” and arrest them. But that’s fantasy land.
You always say you bring only the facts and maybe that’s true but you choose the tone of the article and you choose the facts you bring. I didn’t read on your website the gruesome details of the massacre but I read how the Shabak lied and about the poor Awarta villagers.
Are you even trying to be objective? I never read you never stating that, I guess I just assumed that because I thought you are a serious journalist.
“IDF SAYS GUN THEFT ORIGINAL MOTIVE”
I thought the “original motive” was to murder Jews. That was the purpose of stealing the weapons, no?
You don’t seem to understand the diff. bet. Jews and Israelis. There is one. A Palestinian would see the purpose of stealing weapons as resisting Occupation since your country refuses to end it on its own.
Yes. For anybody who accepts armed resistance as legitimate, the two justifiable and logical targets are settlers and soldiers. Their ethnic/cultural/religious heritage have nothing to do with it. Occupation is not legal and it is not a civilian enterprise, although it has become so normal in the eyes of Israeli society that some people try to treat it as both.
As was discussed in the earlier comment threads on Itamar, this particular settlement is very violent. The settlers succeeded in driving out almost all the villagers of Yanoun for a period of two years, and they were only able to come back once an international peace-making community (the EAPPI) had established a permanent presence in their village. Awarta has been similarly terrorised by Itamar settlers. Smashed-up property, broken bones, contaminated water supplies, and murder – these are some of the atrocities perpetrated by people from Itamar on neighbouring villages. It is quite possible that the killers did not see their action as a form of resistance against the Israeli occupation, but as revenge against this one settlement.
Either way, it’s wrong. Killing people is always wrong, at least for me. What strikes me as painful is that the people who are clamouring for the killers to be caught and punished did not raise their voices at all when Itamar settlers were terrorising whole villages and driving out Yanoun’s population. Some lives seem to carry more value than others, and that is not right.
If the murderers didn’t differentiate between an adult man and a baby, murdering both, what makes you think they would spare a non-settler Israeli or a diaspora Jew. For that matter, if there are no Jews around, sometimes an Italian will have to do. You just don’t get it.
Vittorio Arrigoni was kidnapped and killed in an attempt to blackmail Hamas into releasing prisoners belonging to a rival Islamist faction, the Army of Islam. Hamas has expressed a zero tolerance policy on the kidnapping of foreigners ever since Alan Johnston was held hostage in 2007. Clearly his killers didn’t just see him as a substitute for a Jewish victim. Vittorio was killed by a handful of Gazan extremists, but for every member of that group there are thousands of Gazans who were grateful to him and hundreds who knew and loved him personally. Did you know he was given honorary Palestinian citizenship for the work that he did? It dishonours his memory when you co-opt his killing by making it out to be the fruits of anti-Semitism, especially when the majority of the people he served quite obviously appreciated his work.
As for the Itamar killers’ ability to differentiate between babies and adults, I’m afraid that even here the distinction is not as clear-cut as it ought to be. Children in some settlements (and Itamar is one of them) are taught to be violent while they are still in their pushchairs. In Shovrim Shtika’s latest report (testimonies from female soldiers), one soldier describes how a little girl of seven or eight violently assaulted an elderly Palestinian passer-by by smashing a rock into his head and causing blood to pour out. Prior to this she had been handing stones to her smaller brother, a toddler in a pram, instructing him to ‘throw them at the Arabs’. This sort of thing is common. Children from Itamar regularly accompany their parents on visits to Yanoun, and they strike terror into Palestinian children of the same age.. I don’t blame Itamar’s children for this at all – they’re only doing what they’ve been taught, and it’s not their fault that they don’t have decent adult role models – but I can also see that to a teenager who has grown up in Itamar’s shadow, even the very young don’t look innocent. A sleeping baby could be poisoning your well by the time he is five years old. A diaspora Jew, on the other hand, is unlikely to be doing this.
I find this comment deeply offensive & racist. Major comment rule violation. If you do so again, you will be moderated.
It’s very easy to determine the IDF take on this case since it’s published at their web site.
http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/News/today/2011/04/1704.htm
It doesn’t say anything there about a robbery gone wrong.
Also, Col Nirod Aloni’s briefing to the press in Hebrew can be easily found on youtube. An English translation can be found on ynet. He doesn’t say anything about a fudged up robbery. “As we know, and as last month’s murder has shown, terror groups’ motivation to carry our murderous attacks is raging strong. “