33 thoughts on “Palestine Papers: Herzl Suggested Jews Resettle in Uganda, Condi Suggested Palestinians to Argentina – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. There is an item in Politico.com yesterday by which it appears that this administration has given up on the ME.
    It appears that the White House has zero trust in both Bibi and Abbas and they will not bring much effort into this not any time soon.
    As far as Netanyahu goes he’s named as a liar and Abbas as one that is unable to commit.
    So we can pretty safely kiss goodbye to the 2 states notion.

  2. Actually, if memory serves, hertzel did suggest a jewish state in argentina. Uganda only came up later. How ironic.

    Also, seeing as abbas is such an illegitimate incompetent traitorous leader, israel really doesn’t “have a partner”.

    As for the ROR, it’s constructive for the two sides to admit each other’s needs. The problem is that abbas should know he’s not getting anything in return for this gesture.
    Israel can’t take in 5 or just 1 million refugees. A couple hundred thousand – maybe. But it’s far from a simple matter. More importantly, livni could never sell it to the voters.

    1. Also also, it’s shocking how easily the US offers other people’s land. I think argentina could have a few things to say about this.

    2. In his diary Herzl describes a discussion with Baron de Hirsch about settling Jews in Argentina.

      To put Uganda and Argentina in perspective, one must take into account the complex nature of the Zionist coalition.

      The ultimate goal was not so much moving E. European Jewry to Palestine. Zionist intellectuals were aware that Russian Jews were far more enthusiastic about overthrowing Czarism than colonizing Palestine.

      Zionist intellectuals were generally much more concerned about mobilizing wealthy Western Jews, who could fund Zionism and thus pay the salaries of Zionist intellectuals.

      Thus Herzl would occasionally hold a debate on some ideas from someone like de Hirsch to show that the Zionist movement gave consideration to the ideas of wealthy Jews that were bankrolling the movement.

  3. I have been monitoring various “progressive” web sites and I find it quite amusing how all, with the notable exception of
    Bernard Avishai are ecoriating the Palestinian negotiators for “betraying” the Palestinian cause. Yes, people sitting in North American willing to fight to the last Palestinian!
    So, Richard, you think Abbas didn’t fight for an unrestricted “Right of Return” for the refugees. You are disturbed by this. But, somehow, you think in the end only “several hundred thousand” will go back to Israel. Who the heck are you to decide this? Why are you any different that what you claim Abbas is? Why is it your right to decide which refugees go back? You don’t know that “only” several hundred thousand will demand it, Erekat himself said there are SEVEN MILLION refugees in his Guardian article. If they are not going all going to go back, who are YOU to decide how many Israel is going to accept? You are not a Palestinian. It is not your job to tell them how to conduct the negotiations. HAMAS doesn’t even accept your idea of what a “just peace” (and I mean a signed agreement, not the partial, temporary cease-fire they claim to have accepted), so how are you any different than the “sell-out” Abbas? So he demands Israel accept only 10,000 or 50,000 and you say Israel must accept 700,000. Your just as bad, except that he as a Palestinian must accept the responsibility whereas you sit comfortably thousands of miles away and tell them to be more militant, but only to a point that you arbitrarily chose.
    Really weird!

    1. Yes, people sitting in North American willing to fight to the last Palestinian!

      Actually what I find quite amusing is that you, a supporter of the radical settlers are willing to tell all of us what is good for the Palestinians. Bud, the pot’s calling the kettle black here. We here at this site are more aware of the interests of the Palestinians than you & your buds over there in Efrata & Gush Etzion. Why don’t you get yr head out of Arutz Sheva & ask a real Palestinian (not a stooge) what he or she thinks of their “leaders.” You might (but I doubt it) learn something.

      YOu as usual completely & willfully & in bad faith misunderstand & distort my views. I never once said I was in favor of all refugees returning to Israel. If you’d bother to get up off yr lazy ass & read what I’ve written here numerous times on the subject (& now repeat for the 10th time or more), I’m in favor of a set of offers made only to refugees & their direct descendants which would include generous financial compensation to those remaining where they currently live or returning to Palestine, along with an offer to those who only wish to return to Israel that would involve much less financial compensation.

      Who the heck am I? I’m the guy who’s proposing something very close to what Israelis & Palestinians have already proposed in the Geneva Initiative, that’s who. If it was good enough for them, it’s good enough for me too. And you can go take a flying leap for all I care. And don’t you dare ever lie or deliberately distort my views again. I’ll ban you here so fast yr head will swim. Ah but there’s so little inside it that it would hardly matter.

      I wasn’t the one who estimated how many refugees would return to Israel. Again, the professional demographers & statisticians involved in the Initiative made all those calculations. But yes, I trust them as pretty accurate in the end. If the incentives are made then some, but far, far from all will choose to return to Israel. And you know what? It won’t be a tragedy and it won’t destroy Israel. In fact, these returnees if absorbed in the proper spirit (which I realize may be unlikely currently) could vastly enrich Israeli life. It happened in this country and it could happen in Israel. But certainly intolerant fools like you won’t help the situation.

      You’ve read the nonsense that Abbas said in the transcripts of these conversations & you believe a word coming from his mouth? Anyone can say any number of refugees. 7 million is larger than any estimate I’ve ever read.

      And bud, let me remind you that you’re not a Palestinian either & no Palestinian ever appointed you to represent their interests or castigate me for my views on this subject. So until they do why don’t you do sit back in Tapuach and plan a few terror attacks against Palestinians with yr buddies there & stop slummin’ through those “progressive” sites as you’ve been doing.

      Hamas has offered in a coalition gov’t to allow the PLO to negotiate an agreement on behalf of the Palestinian people. So I’m afraid you’re wrong again. Hamas has said it is willing to accept such an agreement if the Palestinian people accept it in a referendum.

      I never said how many refugees Israel has to accept. Never. ANd you’re a goddamn liar to put words in my mouth so don’t you dare ever do it again. EVER. Do you understand?

    2. Richard stated publicly that he thinks a solution to all refugees (Arabs and Jews) should be reached as part of agreeing on the “end of conflict”
      though he may be an extreme critique of the Israeli policies, and though he may pass blame more so towards the Israeli side,i think he believes in a fair solution. and he stated that more then once. and that is somewhat in conjunction with his own vision / preference of a one state solution.

      1. Well thank you for that. But I don’t think you have it quite right. I don’t favor a 1 state solution, though the longer Israel resists the inevitable the more likely this will be.

        I’d say I favor neither especially. Nominally Israelis may be more inclined toward 2 states & if that is more efficacious in ending the bloodshed it’s fine w me.

    3. “So, Richard, you think Abbas didn’t fight for an unrestricted “Right of Return” for the refugees. You are disturbed by this. But, somehow, you think in the end only “several hundred thousand” will go back to Israel. Who the heck are you to decide this?”

      Somebody who knows the situation of the refugees, who are a very heterogenous bunch, better than you, obviously.

      Acknowledging that Palestinians should have the right to reclaim their homes does not prevent analyzing how many of them are likely to actually exercise that right.

      Israel can easily absorb several hundred thousand Palestinian refugees, just as it could absorb several hundred thousand Russians in the 90s. If they get whiney about their oh-so-precious Jewish majority, those Palestinians can become Palestinian citizens with permanent residency rights in Israel, just as some settlers can become Israeli citizens with permanent residency rights in Palestine. (Not the uzi-toting “Kahane lives!” bunch, of course.) Problem solved.

      The total number of refugees, estimated at ~4.5 million by credible sources, seems large, but it does not accurately convey the size of the problem. ~2 million of those have Jordanian citizenship and would likely agree to stay in that country with their government’s consent.

      Of the rest, a certain percentage could certainly remain in their host countries, like Syria or Lebanon, if the international community offers the proper financial incentives to both the refugees and the governments of those countries. Still others would emigrate to the US and Europe if those countries were willing to offer them an opportunity to.

      The remaining refugees would not all return to Israel either. Many are actually from places in the West Bank which were ethnically cleansed in 1967 and would be handed back to the future Palestinian state in a peace deal, like Beit Awwa. Others could be settled if their former homes were made part of the Palestinian state in the context of a land swap.

      Seeing all this, Richard’s estimates are realistic – and they would tackle the refugee problem in a way that took into account people’s rights, while still preserving Israel’s “Jewish Character”. Of course, Israel wants none of this. Their line is “no return” or some ridiculously low fig-leaf number. (5000? Why not 500? Or 5? Or 1?)

      1. Your analysis is all guess work and assumptions. You “assume” that the vast majority of Palestinians in Jordan would stay put. I am sure they would say that is not true if you asked them.
        I am sure that you remember that Kuwait and Iraq each expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in recent years….Kuwait in the wake of Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait, which Arafat supported, and then the Iraqis did it after Saddam was ousted by the Americans.
        So how hard would it be for Syria and Lebanon to expel their refugees who do not have citizenship in those countries? All they have to say it “okay, you now have the right to return to your own country, out!”
        The ROR is NOT a “humanitarian issue” of what to do with the refugees, although the Israeli “peace camp” keeps pretending it is. It is a political weapon to be used against Israel. I am sure Muslim clerics would proclaim a fatwa that all refugees are OBLIGATED to go back and reclaim their property and those who don’t will face divine wrath. Who wants to have that?

        1. No, it is not me assuming anything. As i already told u research has already been done by the geneva initiative on all these subjects. These are not assumptions or guesswork. They actually had an entire professional staff compiling such data.

          Clearly, the premise of offering financial compensation to refugees requires that no country currently housing Palestinian refugees forcibly expel them. Given the fact that these refugees (at least those who are direct descendants of Nakba expellees) would receive substantial awards, what country in its right mind would turn down a few hundred million dollars going to a substantial minority of their inhabitants? Think of how much it would enrich the economies of the places where they live.

          I see no reason why any Arab nation would expel Palestinian refugees and if they were stupid enough to do so there would be a number of other countries only to willing to allow the expellees to spend their awards in those nations.

          Look at it this way, say the status of world Jewry was roughly that of the Palestinian diaspora today (lots of Jews living in refugee camps in various places, a substantial number living stably and securely in other places, etc). Say the state of israel was about to come into existence. Say Germany & all the European nations which collaborated in the Holocaust agreed to offer reparations to survivors & direct descendants. If u chose Israel u get planefare & a small resettlement stipend. If u stay in yr current home & country u receive substantially more.

          Which option would the vast majority choose? We can see today that world Jewry is offered the option of returning to Israel. How many choose it? Admittedly, there would be many factors perhaps motivating Nakba refugees and their descendants to return to Israel and reclaim their legacies. But not enough according to serious surveys on the issue to mount much higher than a few hundred thousand. I think I once saw an estimate of 400,000 out of 4.5-5-million worldwide. As Koshiro has said, this is a manageable number if the refugees don’t return all at once. And if you plan for their return by doing your best to integrate the returnees into Israeli societies as the Russian Jews have been, then the refugees would greatly enrich their new/old homeland.

        2. “I am sure that you remember that Kuwait and Iraq each expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in recent years….[…] So how hard would it be for Syria and Lebanon to expel their refugees who do not have citizenship in those countries?”

          Do Palestinians have Citizenship in those countries right now? No.
          Have these countries expelled Palestinians yet? No.
          Did Kuwait give a damn about whether their Palestinians could “return to their own country”, in other words, was the presence of a Palestinian state a catalyst to the expulsion? Quite obviously not.

          So, is there any basis to your theory that the establishment of a Palestinian state will make Lebanon and Syria expel their Palestinians?
          Nope. *That* is guesswork and assumptions.

          Plus, you apparently did not read or chose to ignore the crucial parts about “incentives”. In Syria’s case, the solution should be fairly obvious. Involve them in the larger context of a regional peace and condition Syria regaining sovereignty over the Golan heights on their granting citizenship to Palestinian refugees who want it. Problem solved.

  4. “And what business should it be of Abbas as erstwhile leader of Palestine to be concerned primarily with the welfare of Israel?”
    perhaps if both sides were a little more concerned with what the other side is capable of delivering, things would move forward…

    1. Um, excuse me. How could the Palestinians have been any more solicitous than they were toward the Israeli side? Perhaps they might’ve volunteered to ship all 1 million Israeli Palestinians to Argentina and given all of their future state to Israel & migrated en masse to Argentina?

      But that too wouldn’t have been enough for Tzipi & she’d have insisted that they sing Hatikvah as well before Israel accepted their generous offer…

  5. And here was I thinking that the proposals I’ve been putting forward for some considerable time were quite radical in their outlook, unique in the scope and depth of vision they encompass.

    Compared to the ones outlined by Condoleezza Rice in 2008, mine, by comparison, now look to be positively mundane, the merest shadow of her (and Mr. Herzl’s) capacity to envisage the displacement of so many people and communities. And to shores so very distant from their present location. (Does Uganda actually have a shoreline?)

    At least I’m all for keeping them in more or less the same place.

    In fact, the method I was advocating assumed no actual movement or transfer at all; just a new and very careful attitude towards each other, one far superior the almost casual displays of indifference and intolerance that both sides seem to indulge in on rather too many occasions.

    Anyway, good to see that some are still able to think outside the box.

    Even if their thinking is way, way outside it.

  6. I think Livni actually comes out well from the papers so far, in spite of the law quote. Not so Tony Blair, whose suggestions are destroyed by the NSU internal paper in the most frank terms, as Amos Gilad would put it.

    Is it possible that Condi’s quote is being taken out of context? In the actual document, I get the impression it is referring to financial contributions, not territorial:

    Tal Becker: I forgot to mention that there will be an international fund.

    Rice: Maybe we will be able to find countries that can contribute in kind. Chile, Argentina, etc. (i.e. give land).

    It’s only in parentheses that it says she is talking about land.

    Anyway, all the documents (as they are released) can be read here:

    http://transparency.aljazeera.net/en/search

    1. “Contribute in kind” and “give land” are fairly unambiguous. And just so you know, the things in the parentheses were said, too. These are minutes, not word-for-word transcriptions.

      In any case, the idea is idiotic. Why on Earth should Argentina contribute anything, money or land?

      1. Argentina almost went bankrupt only a few yrs ago. What funding could or would it contribute to such a venture? And why? On the other hand, both Argentina & Chile have vast tracts of land that are lightly inhabited. So in the neo-colonial eyes of Condi Rice I’m sure she imagines those countries could take in these Palestinian refugees. Though why a Palestinian refugee would want to live on the pampas or in the Chilean Andes, I don’t know. I guess it might beat a Lebanese refugee camp though.

        1. Chile already has the biggest Palestinian community outside the Middle East. Around 60% of the socalled “Turcos” – in fact Middle Eastern Arabs comming to Latin America from as early as the 1840’s with Ottoman passports – are of Palestinian origin. 400.000 Chileans consider themselves of Palestinian origin, and around 10% of the population in Argentina are of ‘Turcos’ descent, though in their vast majority Libanese. Carlos Menem, “El Turco”, the former president is of Syrian origin. The Palestinians are doing very well all over Latin America, 3 former presidents, 2 Palestinians running against each other in the 2002 Presidential elections in El Salvador, Prime Ministers, etc, so maybe the idea isn’t that bad 🙁

    1. Because Dick Hoerster and his clients own much of the Texas Hill Country and already have exciting plans for making a huge fortune out of the shale gas deposits beneath.

      Although, a Mr Cyril Reitman has been seen visiting Mr Hoerster in Fredericksburg over the past few months, so some sort of business deal between the Jewish extreme right and the German-American fall off the edge right may be anticipated. We’ll just have to see which vulnerable minority group is most badly disadvantaged by this.

  7. ” Many Zionists don’t know or admit that Herzl had no particular romantic affinity for Palestine as the homeland of the Jews”

    Have you actually counted? How many of them do you know? Its so amusing to read ur blog posts at times, and to realise You actually believe You know what you’re talking about. Heres something new for you, you apparently dont know about Israel: we study about the Uganda/ Argentina suggestions in +- 7-8th grades. It means anyone who grew up in this country, and studied the history of zionism *knows* Uganda and Argentina were suggested as solutions instead of palestine for a jewish homeland. So who are those imaginary “Many Zionists” you mention? Mayhaps Zionists from the USA? but why not to mention it then, and not write something that is simply not true?

    ” If Israel could take in a million Russian Jews in a short period, it can take in a few hundred thousand (and not a million as Abbas imagines) Palestinian refugees who might insist on returning to Israel”

    Another favorite arguement of yours and your friends. What exactly do you know about life of those Russian Jews in Israel? do you know how well they’ve obsorbed here during this “short period” (which had lasted for more than ten years – but again, why would u let facts confuse you?)?
    Do you even know any of them, or u just assume you do because you know one from news reports? (i mean liberman, of course)/
    Anyway, even if the story of russian immigration was a great success (and it isnt really), how can you compare those russians, most out of whom are zionists, to the palestinian refugees?

    Richard, have you ever read any reports about the immigration from north africa / middle east to western europe? How many of those immigranst have managed to integrate there? why do you think itll work better with palestinians and israel than it worked with algerian /marrocans and france, when you have the factor of the mutual hatered between jews and arabs here, which doesnt exist in France or germany (and yet, the multicultural concept failed there badly, as even the german p.m admits)

    Many of those Russian Jews are skilled and educated proffesionals in different fields – doctors, engineers, scientists, etc, and yet many of them had or still have to work at lower paying jobs, because of language bareer and other immigration related issues. Where do you think those “a few thousands of palestinians” will work? Are they all software engineers or rocket scientist? Do you think theyll love us (the local jews) more when theyll find themselves working in shitty jobs, for shitty salary?
    And you really do believe it can be avoided? Or u just think the socio economical issues will just resolve themselves in some magical way, because some utopian peace treaty will be signed with the leaders of the palestinians?

    Its time to realise jews and arabs CANT share a multi national state, and the best thing that can happen to both people is separation. Theyll get their own state and they should whatever they want there, just like We’re doing with ours.

    1. we study about the Uganda/ Argentina suggestions in +- 7-8th grades. It means anyone who grew up in this country, and studied the history of zionism *knows* Uganda and Argentina were suggested as solutions

      It may surprise you, but the majority of Zionists in the world live outside Israel. I said “many Zionists” don’t know about Uganda and what I wrote is true.

      this “short period” (which had lasted for more than ten years – but again, why would u let facts confuse you?

      The largest amt. of immigration was between 1972-1979, which I feel comfortable saying was a “short time.”

      even if the story of russian immigration was a great success (and it isnt really), how can you compare those russians, most out of whom are zionists, to the palestinian refugees?

      I never said the Russian immigration was a “great success.” None of the waves of immigration have been “great successes.” But Israel absorbed them and they are citizens and contributing to the nation in the same way that the returning Palestinian refugees will. Your comment once again shows that you don’t understand what Israel is. It is a state that includes Jews and Palestinians, each equal and each entitled to the same rights. You don’t have to be a Zionist to be an Israeli.

      have you ever read any reports about the immigration from north africa / middle east to western europe? How many of those immigranst have managed to integrate there?

      Have you ever read any reports about the immigration of Muslims to the U.S. How many of those immigrants have managed to integrate? The vast majority I assure you. So there is a model of integration. If Israel chooses a diff. route or chooses to ignore the issue, that will be its own fault.

      why do you think itll work better with palestinians and israel than it worked with algerian /marrocans and france

      Is France the model Israel should aspire to? The countries of Europe are generally homogenous ethincally. They have never readily or easily absorbed outsiders. The U.S. and other western countries like Canada have a vastly diff. record.

      the mutual hatered between jews and arabs here, which doesnt exist in France or germany

      The mutual hatred of German & French natives for Muslims is quite strong.

      the multicultural concept failed there badly

      Has it? Who says? The anti-jihadists? Geert Wilders? Le Pen? Is that who yr friends are?

      Where do you think those “a few thousands of palestinians” will work? Are they all software engineers or rocket scientist? Do you think theyll love us (the local jews) more when theyll find themselves working in shitty jobs, for shitty salary?

      Israel has a generally strong economy which provides new jobs for those entering the labor force. Many Palestinian refugees are just as skilled or moreso than Russian Jews were when they came. You should try to get to know a few and perhaps yr prejudices would be reduced by familiarity and knowledge rather than ignorance. Immigration is always a stressful, difficult process. It is terribly difficult to acculturate and succeed in a new culture & society. But this process is what has made America great, and it can do something similar for Israel if it is approached right.

      A peace agreement would be accompanied by massive infusions of aid and investment by the west both inside Israel and Palestine. This would benefit both countries and provide new business & economic opportunities on both sides.

      Its time to realise jews and arabs CANT share a multi national state

      Israel is a state composed of Jews and Palestinians. And it will always be. So you can get used to the idea or you can go down in flames on behalf of yr racist vision. I myself choose life. You can choose whatever you like. But I hope other Israelis will turn their backs on whatever you offer.

      1. The mutual hatred of German & French natives for Muslims is quite strong.

        the multicultural concept failed there badly

        Has it? Who says? The anti-jihadists? Geert Wilders? Le Pen? Is that who yr friends are?

        Richard, when you say theres strong hatered betwen native europeans and muslims, and then you claim the multicultural concept has not failed, you simply contradict yourself. With that said, i actually told you whom i quoted – the German Chancellor Angela Merkel (right here:
        http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451 )

        . Immigration is always a stressful, difficult process (…) But this process is what has made America great
        This is only YOUR opinion. I think that ww2 outcomes have actually contributed more to America’s greatness than the non stopping immigration. We probably wont get to see the president of the usa talking about the failure of mutliculturalism, but the term “white flight” was not invented about tel aviv either (not to mention those militias in arizona, who aim to shoot down illegal mexican immigrants)

        Israel has a generally strong economy

        Yes, israel has a strong economy, because we’ve worked for 60 years to make it such, and this is exactly why i dont want to see it getting ruined.
        Israel has a strong economy because even in our socialist days this country was always west oriented, and built upon the cultural herritage of European Rationalism. Theres a reason why the european states (or states created by ex europeans like usa) are rich, and so many other countries are poor. I know its very trendy to blame “colonialism” in everything, but colonialism has ended +-50 years ago. Theres a huge cultural difference between the rational west and the half religious traditional east (excluding 2 or 3 countries at far east mayhaps), and it cant be ignored, or dismissed by calling anyone who sees it “Racist”. Theres a good reason why you have hunderds of thousands of Africans and Asians coming to europe, and 0 europeans immigrating to those continents. As ive already said, israel avoided the faith of egypt or jordan by being more west oriented. I havent seen any single proof palestinian culture is any different from jordanese or syrian or egyptian, and i dont want to wish to take part in an experiemnt which outcome might be a total destruction of Israel’s “strong economy”.
        What is even worse is the extra pride those people take in their culture, instead of just realising in most of the cases this is what brought them troubles at first place. If i was one of them id give up on my religion years ago (just like i think european jews should have than 150 years ago).
        You think im racist, because like many other liberals from the west youve been convinced along the years the situtation in 3rd world countries is somehow your fault and that everyone who disagrees is a racist, but the truth is that its not the palestinians who are poor because of israel, its israel who managed to be different from it surrounding countries. I dont see any reason to asume Palestine as a state would have been any different from Jordan, Egypt or Pakistan, and i dont see why anyone should believe 500,000 or more palestinians in Israel will somehow be different – especially when they put so much emphasize on their nationality.

        Sorry for the very long post.
        I hope you’ll at least read it and try to understand it, instead of blidningly accusing me in racism and ignoring what i say.

        1. I didn’t say there was hatred bet. all natives & immigrants. After all Le Pen & the British anti-immigrant parties command only 20% of the vote if that. That’s not enough to give up on the idea of integration.

          1. You know, if you want validation for your racism you can find it virtually anywhere. But don’t delude yrself that David Cameron is a font of liberal enlightenment. He’S a Tory, England’s equivalent of the Likud. He gets 25 votes in all of England fr “Pakis” so of course he’s happy to whale on ’em for the benefit of fellow enlightened racists like you. Welcome to the club.

          2. sorry for the double post
            Just saw a part of his speech where he says something like
            “When someone white is being racist we condem him. When same behaviour comes from someone whos not white we’re ready to be more tolerant”
            Thsi is EXACTLY about people like you, Richard, and the way you choose to moderate your blog.

          3. Ask me if I care about your opinions about anything I do here. If you don’t like the way I run things you’re more than welcome to move your perch elsewhere. So stop whining…

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