One of my readers has provided the graphic for the ad David Horowitz proposed displaying on Seattle Metro buses. And I think finally the man has truly taken leave of his senses. Let’s leave aside the fact that there have been no bus bombings in Israel for years. But who in their right mind claims that Palestinian terror is financed by the U.S. taxpayer?
While I’ve disagreed with the over the top rhetoric of the Mideast Awareness Campaign in claiming outright Gaza war crimes (before they’ve been proven in a court like the ICC), it is an incontrovertible fact that Israel uses its $3 billion yearly military aid package to purchase sophisticated weaponry routinely used in wars like Lebanon and Gaza. So American taxpayers do, in that sense, participate directly or indirectly in the oppression of the Occupation.
But to claim that we also support or finance Palestinian terror is simply way out there in some sort of Islamophobic nether world. This is precisely the point I made in yesterday’s post about why we need more, not less speech. Horowitz’s add SHOULD be displayed on Seattle buses. I want everyone to see what an idiot he is. I want him to make a fool of himself. This is the marketplace of ideas and the way you determine what ideas are useful and what ideas are worthless.
And to make one point clear, I have no problem with the notion that there have been acts committed by Palestinians which may constitute war crimes. So let’s let the ICC determine this issue. Let’s bring both parties to the Hague and determine their guilt or innocence.
Indeed! Bravo Richard.
I don’t understand his point at all. I was expecting something like a gratuitous photo of 9/11 with bodies lying about and then a bus bombing from the Intifadah with something like “America & Israel – Two Peoples, One Fight” (Okay, maybe not that exact slogan given its previous use but…something similar). The actual poster is really just nonsensical.
I really think he was just taunting the folks behind the original ad & Metro, sort of like when kids say to ea. other: “Nyah, nyah, ne nyah nyah!” It’s provocation for provocation’s sake. And I also think I was right in saying he’s deliberately being as provocative as possible in order to get Metro to stop the original ad. If he’d really wanted to make a genuine statement about the issue, he’d have devoted the least bit of thought to the content, which he clearly didn’t.
Merry Christmas everyone! 🙂
Thanks, Shai.
” ‘Aîd al-milâd as-sa’îd” in Arabic.
Here’s a “Merry Christmas” to everyone from Bilin:
http://fr.news.yahoo.com/photos/diaporama/israel-palestine.html?imageUrl=/ap/20101224/r_p_ap_wl_israel/pwl-mideast-israel-palestin-1d7d885e9992&sp=-1
Hasbara bot senses sarcasm..tick tick tick tick, loading form reply:
———-
MYTH: Israel preserves the land important to Christians.
FACT: The Jordan River, where Jesus was baptized, is hardly flowing with water, but actually with disgusting Israeli sewage.
Evidence: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1837222,00.htm
In the desert, you need water. This water is supposed to be for a future Palestinian state, but the Hashemites in Jordan were ordered to cut off their source as Israel cut theirs off and dumped sewage into it.
Baptize yourself where Jesus baptized himself and you will get one very nasty surprise.
———-
Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist, who protested that he was unworthy to even undo the strings of his sandals, but apart from that you’re spot on.
Nobody, not even Jesus, can exactly baptise himself.
Semantics, but you’re right. It was a copy and paste from a form reply I give to the hasbarists regular fare (aka generic statements)
The LA Times has weighed in on the issue
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/middleeast/la-na-war-crime-ads-20101225,0,3454944.story
It needs to be an idiot to wait to the ICC determine that bombings buses are war crimes.
Ahitofel, Richard’s point flew over your head. Kinda happens a lot I guess when you are that small of a person. Grow some soul soon.
Love,
Mr. PA
And that’s precisely the problem. Everyone whose ox is gored thinks they don’t need to prove it & are ready to string up the guilty party by their thumbs. That’s precisely why we need justice done. Why we need the ICC. That’s precisely what’s wrong with Israeli “justice” through the barrel of a gun (targeted killing).
In invite you to live in Israel and to see our point of view. It is very easy to be neutral from Seattle.
You are invited to live in Gaza or the West Bank to see the Palestinian point of view – walls and racist settlers. It’s very easy to be indifferent from when coddled by the hasbara in Haifa and Tel Aviv.
Bravo Gene!
Do not fool yourself that by taking the side of the Palestinians they will spare you when the Muslims will take over. Of course you can call me islamophob but you would not like to face the reality that Palestinians wish that Israel would disappear and they never accept the existence of Israel a Jewish state in the middle of Islamic world.
Thank you for displaying for us the mind of the truly delusional racist Islamophobic Israeli. I can’t for the life of me understand where such horrific generalizations come from. Yes, I know Osama bin Laden, etc. But to really believe that Muslims either can or want to “take over?” That takes a mind truly delusional (like David Horowitz’s I presume)…
My dear AHITOFEL. I do not fool myself. You might wish to remember that the Palestinians have always been a rather secular society, until the Israelis and the US CIA installed extremist HAMAS to oppose Arafat and the FATAH. You (the Israelis) have only yourself to blame if the Muslims do take over. Not only the Palestinians, but I too wish that israel would disappear as a “Jewish” state in the middle of the Islamic world. Wouldn’t we all be better off if the Palestinians and the Jews could live in one state which serves both peoples as a homeland, as was originally intended? Even by the Balfour Declaration!
Ahitofel, presumably you are aware of all the anti-Semitic canards that say ‘world Jewry’ is plotting to take over the world. Yet you are quite happy to make parallel claims about ‘the Muslims’. Are they like the Borg? Do roughly 1.1 billion people think with one mind, all united in this nefarious global plot? The idea is illogical and yes, deeply prejudiced.
I don’t understand why you are conflating Palestinians and Muslims anyway. Palestinian society is very diverse in terms of religion and culture. There are Christians of all denominational stripes, Muslims, Druze, even a few Baha’is – and of course secularists. Also, the Palestinian expression of religious faith has historically been respectful of difference. There was a time when people used to go on pilgrimages to the various maqams/shrines that dot the landscape without caring (or sometimes even knowing) whether the shrine was Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. It was the custom to visit them all – and it still would be, if people could get about the country unimpeded by checkpoints and soldiers. Today the shrine of St George has a constant flow of Muslim visitors, who hope that the water at the shrine will strengthen their children. At Christmas, particularly in Gaza, the churches have large numbers of Muslim congregants too. The key of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, one of the holiest Christian sites in the world, lies in the hands of two Muslim families, and has done for about a thousand years.
As to Hamas, Father Musallam, formerly the priest at Gaza’s Holy Family Church, states that ninety-nine per cent of the 1200 pupils at Catholic school attached to the church are Muslim. These include the children of Hamas members. In his words: “The Hamas mothers and fathers are at the parents’ day along with everybody else.”
This is the violent community of Islamist fanatics that you are imagining. It is wrong to try and paint the Palestinian struggle for self-determination as a battle between Muslims and the rest of the world (despite the best efforts of the Israeli administration to make such a connection, presumably in order to gain political mileage from the USA’s ‘War on Terror’.) But you don’t have to probe very deep into Palestinian society in order to realise that the connection is false.
Well said, Vicky.
If he’s not too brainwashed by Zionist propaganda, AHITOFEL might also benefit from reading the following history of the Israeli occupation of Palestine. He may then realize that it is not a matter of religious differences, rather one of real estate, as Amos Oz pointed out in his little book “How to Cure a Fanatic.”
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/12/25-1
Ah, are you suggesting that we shoot everyone with the Point of View Gun ™?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsgbcYnmR6Y
I would say that the point of view gun is alive and well on thie website….
Don’t agree with Richard – Zap…you are an idiot
State a contrary fact – Zap Better watch yourself mister
Have the gaul to state it again – Bkast your head off with it so the other minions here are not effected by your pointless drivel.
By the way PersionAdvocate – Please do not reference yourself as Mr. PA as you did above. I once did that in a previous thread and was reprimanded. Apparantly it causes a lot of confusion.
As long as readers generally understand what initials stand for it’s fine to use them. But at the time you referred to him as PA no one previously had ever done so. And certainly if I were to refer to myself as RS or Persian Advocate as PA most people would understand the meaning. So stop w. the snark. If you have something to say, say it. If you want to complain about the way I maintain the threads stop boring us.
Duhay,
That is nonsense (and not how the gun works!!!)
If a 10 year old Palestinian child shot you with the gun, you would probably crumble into nothing — that child having more fortitude in a pinky than you do in your entire being.
If Richard shot you with the gun, you would instantly become a humanist and realize that the world didn’t start in 1948, nor can you change the past by lying about it. You would realize the only way forward is compromise… a notion that is probably absent from your teachings. You would probably gain a broader perspective about the world, noticing that Israel is now the Pariah and the Palestinians the beloved underdogs.
If I shot you with the gun, you’d realize how stigmatized Iranians have become solely because of the propaganda push by the Lobby. It’s been happening since 1979, and the supermajority of us are not one in the same as the government. But, Netanyahu et. al. have sure tried their hardest to make it that way. Meanwhile, our freedom movement was hijacked, in part, by Mossad and other Israeli factions. In 2002, Iran offered to reconcile with the US, by dropping support for Hamas and Hezbollah, after already having given crucial intel to the US for their invasion in Afghanistan, and that was blocked by AIPAC. AIPAC made sure Bush put Iran into the “Axis of Evil” in his 2003 State of the Union. That reconciliation would have opened doors for us to see our families and be treated like normal people all around the world. A small minority while “safeguarding their interests” changed all of that for us. They continue to do it today.
There are no minions here other than the ones who come back and drown us with superficial arguments like the one you just mentioned. You neither understand the logic of the gun (made into a cartoon for you and with subtitles) nor are you willing to, which is why you must be shot with it by all of the above.
If I were to let you shoot me with the gun, I would suddenly feel paranoid, delusional, and begin burning history books and encyclopedias for the new volume of Encyclopedia Israelica, where in the “P” section there is no Palestine or Palestinians and the “G” section has a 40 page color foldout to racist and inhumane Golda Meir.
And of course, you are right, I would want nothing to do with the Palestinian Authority as it is apparent they are toeing the Israeli agenda to split the baby in half. King Solomon would give Israel to the Palestinians under these circumstances. And yes, the analogy is apt.
Obviously, you got to make this comment and your many other ones. The tolerance level Richard has for some of you is astounding. It’s not that we only disagree with what you say, it’s that what you say is superficial and garbage. There is no substance to it half of the time and the other half it’s the same regurgitated Hasbara points. You people need to start having your own minds and heads. Otherwise, you’re just another fainting goat. (google it) 😉
BTW, you also act like you don’t have Google. Please use it more often, it was part-invented by Israelis.
And ‘PA’ is used for the Palestinian Authority, so it’s a bit confusing.
When you have something a bit more intelligent and probitive to say, pls. do. Until then, this is pathetic.
They could have easly argued that US assitance to fatah security forces is somehow going to terror. People ARE that stupid.
I actually went to Horowitz’ website & read the supporting garbage he wrote & you are indeed right. He claims that the “$500-million” given by the U.S. government has gone to support Palestinian terror & rejectionism. Now considering Hamas hasn’t gotten a penny of this money, he’s talking about Fatah & the PA being terrorists. That’s what I mean by these people truly taking leave of their senses.
You are correct…he does say that. I personally don’t see how he can make a sensless claim as this. After all, that money was invested in the infrastrucute and industry of the Gaza strip. The mediteranean beach front hotels that draw tourism from around the Arab world, road systems, garbage removal, new schools, postal service, and a plethora of other public services and welfare prorams alive and well in Gaza were all started by this seed money and the other millions that came in from the EU.
I personally am sick and tired of those that continuosly harp on the fact that this money was siphoned off into the personal accounts of the Palestinian leadership of the time. Wake up world.
# Duhay)
You must be addicted to Ziocaïne !
“The mediterranean beach front hotels that draw tourism from around the Arab world” is just plain Hasbara as the rest of your description of living conditions in Gaza. Shame on you !!!
Gaza is: polluted drinking water, people still living in tents, people dying because of lack of appropriate medical care.
In the name of our common God, I don’t understand how any human being can say the shit you’re saying.
I could show you the advertisement for a concert by the Jewish Symphonic Orchestra in the hight of the Warsaw Ghetto, but I’ve already posted it here, and I don’t wan’t to abuse of Richard’s hospitality. Lokk it up yourself, at Hasbarabuster. He send it to a “Zionist Friend” with your kind of hate speech.
If you have the guts to see this documentary produced for “Save the Children”, and programmed on Channel 4 during spring 2010, come back and tell us about “Hollywood-on-Gaza” afterwards:
http://palestinevideo.blogspot.com/2010/03/dispatches-children-of-gaza-2010.html
Highly recommendable for everyone. I’ve seen it 4-5 times, and it moves me equally everytime. Those kids just haunt you for a long time.
Ok then….where did the money go?
To the PA you nitwit. Did you think the U.S. gov’t gave $500 million to Hamas? Or even to Gaza?
Nothing concerning Palestinians will move Duhay, who has long ago lost his humanity on that score, if he ever had any.
I think this was an attempt at irony, though I can’t be sure. If you meant it as irony it was typically feeble.
The U.S. doesn’t give any funds to Hamas nor to Gaza unless in the form of humanitarian aid, & then it is only given to international relief organizations. And yes some of those funds have been & are being used for some of these infrastructure projects which, if I read you right, seem to be claiming don’t exist (no, no beach front hotels alas, if there were Israel would’ve bombed them to smithereens by now). Horowitz to the extent there was any real thought devoted to the issue at all, was prob. talking more about the PA as the recipient of U.S. funding since far more of our funds are given to Fatah & the PA. They are our golden boys hence we are showering largess on them.
So nice try once again, but you’re off by a country mile as usual. Now did you actually want to try to say something substantive? Because if you did I missed it.
“Tourism from around the world?”
Nobody gets into Israel without permission from Israel, and that includes people going via Rafah.
Road systems? Schools? Have you travelled on the roads in Gaza? They don’t even compare to the roads in the West Bank (not the ones reserved for Jews only — just the ones Palestinians are allowed to use) Schools? Like the roads and “infrastructure” they are in a pretty sorry state, especially after the brutal attack by Israel two years ago, and with no building materials available due to Israel’s draconian blockade.
Welcome back Mary, we missed you.
Dear Richard, I’ve read both of your blogs about the Seattle bus campaign and do agree very much. There seems to be only one flaw. You’d welcome the Horowitz counter-ad as to make himself look like an idiot, since, as you write “This is the marketplace of ideas and the way you determine what ideas are useful and what ideas are worthless.”
I am just afraid that this marketplace does not work as it is supposed to do in an open and rational-minded society. Otherwise Bush jr. had not succeeded with all his faked WMD stories, Glenn Beck et.al. were not masters of the masses, and Palin would not be a person people listen to but just a laughing stock (what, as a matter of fact, she is). I wished the marketplace would be in better shape.
Though, thanks once more for your thorough analysis.
Good point, but one step further here: Horowitz would be a moron to put those ads up. It’s grounds for several lawsuits, including defamation and slander. The truthfulness of the ad is non-existent. There exists no redeeming quality about it. No court would allow it to stay up as it’s a lie and one made with an obvious mens rea (“guilty mind”) given the context. The dicta in New York Times v. Sullivan, a landmark SCOTUS decision, makes it clear that Horowitz will be liable for his lie. And there is privity with the governmental body that allows his ads to run, so they are liable as well.
Now, if Horowitz is interested in some truth, there’s a great site here:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org
Kind of propoganda-ish…no?
Thought these types of sites are not supposed to be posted here, because there are plenty of others that show other data that would not paint the PALS in a very truthfull light.
No. It’s a not-for-profit organization and all of the things on that site are FACTS. Please show us your own data that contradicts it so that we can vet it. Be careful not to give anything superficial or shallow because I will shoot it with my crossbow and do a mexican hat dance ‘pon its carcass.
I did not say data that contradicts…..there is no doubt that palestinian casualties are higher.
I have posted websites here before only to be threatened with censorship or had my posts censored completely.
You don’t know of what you speak. NYT v Sullivan has little or no relevance here, since the Court said it didn’t matter whether what was said/written would constitute slander/libel under other circumstances, because the plaintiff was a public official, they had to prove not just that what they complained of was both false and defamatory, but that there was actual malice involved, something very difficult to convince a court of. “Mens rea” pertains not at all to civil cases, which slander/libel ones almost always are; it is a requisite element in criminal ones, and still one can be found guilty of “criminal negligence” though the results were not intended. (And what “dicta” in NYTimes v Sullivan do you have in mind? Do you know what “dicta” is?)
Oh so there is no difference now between negligence, recklessness, and intentional torts, as in breach of contract cases, Rad? You see, you claim to have competency but you are quite the malpractitioner if you never realized mens rea was a Latin phrase and not simply an exclusive requirement in criminal law. You should not be rendering opinion (or you should represent those people adverse to my clients). In fact, the way you just replied to me would give me grounds to have you sanctioned with whatever bar association you would claim to have license in.
NY Times is quite applicable here. You have no idea what you’re bloviating over. You constant push to label me an anti-Semite tells me you are either not an attorney or truly a whaaaaaambulance chasing a hole…. Moron.
Cut the snark. Do you think you’re the only one who knows Latin? He has a good legal education. Of course he knows what dicta means. So stick to arguments & lose the snark.
If he has a good legal education, one wouldn’t know it from his musings about suing David Horowitz were those ads to go up. Let him point to where in NYTimes they talked about “mens rea” rather than “actual malice,” and let him point us to the “dicta” he has in mind.
Richard, you may be a plaintiff or defendant in a libel lawsuit, but your knowledge of these matters isn’t much greater than the knowledge of forensic psychiatry and the law with regard to criminal responsibility that you displayed in your discussions of the Haq case. And if you rely on PersianAdvocate, you won’t be enlightened on such either.
I don’t sue other people when they engage in libel against me. It’s a waste of time, money & besides I’d hope that their lunacy would discredit itself w/o restorting to the courts. No, I’m a defendant I’m afraid.
I never claimed to be a lawyer. But I know injustice when it’s committed & it was in the Haq case.
Interesting that 1st you attempted to impugn PA’s knowledge of the law & Latin & then totally unsolicited you took a swing at me as well. I wonder why you did that? Just couldn’t help yrself could you?
We Catholics know a bit of Latin too.
“Dominus vobiscum, et cum spiritu tuo”
Yes, democracy is imperfect. And often garbage gets tossed to the top of the heap at least temporarily. But when taken in a long term perspective, the good rises and the bad falls.
Gene Schulman blames Israel for creating Hamas Israel for creating Hamas but he probably forgot that we killed Jesus?
Dear Echo Chamber,
Israel was a different entity altogether circa 20-40 AD. Yeshua was a Rabbi who taught social justice and equality. He challenged the Roman Empire and the Jewish aristocracy that placated them by calling for an end to tyranny. And under Roman Rule, this earned him a vicious reply, matted out by the Aristocrats who would do nothing less than to please Pontius Pilate.
By the way, is it true that it’s illegal to convert to Christianity in Israel? It’s strange because in Iran, you can convert to anything you want, so long as you don’t disparage the Islamic system in the process and, more importantly, in a public way that creates hostility. Muslims are commanded to respect people of the book, and in the case of Iran, this extends to Zoroastrians as well.
Lol what? Where did you hear that?
I actually read it as a tangent on Haaretz in another article, buuuut, here is another site that tells the story much better:
[url deleted for violation of comment rules]
That site is anti-Semitic, and I don’t use that word lightly. Steer well clear of it. Anything with a headline like ‘All suffer under Judaism’ is not worth reading. I won’t summarise everything that’s wrong with the article; it should be obvious. Non-Jews in Israel do face terrible discrimination, but not because Judaism is inherently violent and hateful, the way that article makes out. Jewish Studies is my academic field, and while Talmudic exegesis is not my specialism I know that it is a vibrant and dynamic area of scholarship which has been refined by centuries of rabbinical debate. You can’t just take snippets out of context and use them to ‘prove’ that hating Christians is ‘an old religious duty in Judaism’.
I notice that the site owners also go in for a spot of Holocaust denial as well, marketing a DVD about the ‘persecution’ of revisionists. No thanks. Yeurgh.
I agree, Persian Advocate. More discretion is strongly advised. I detest sites like this & as soon as I have more time to do so, I plan on removing yr link. I do not promote sites w. such views.
Clue me in here, Richard. I’m confused lol 🙂
Yes, it figures that a website which gives top billing to a claim that Leo Frank was indeed guilty of murder wouldn’t put you off. You are too busy studying US Constitutional law to pay attention to what you cite for support, right?
Carry on without me for a while, everybody. It’s getting to be too much like kindergarten here, with Richard in the role of teacher. I may come back when you’re all in the 3rd grade.
As I wrote, this will be the last discussion of this website here by you or anyone else. Another violation of the comment rules & you’ll lose yr privileges here.
Oh you do see that PersianAdvocate is a devotee of antisemitism? You used to allow that dedicated antisemite Joachim Martillo, who even Phil Weiss called out as an antisemite, to hang out here and dish the antisemitism, but haven’t seen him here in awhile.
It’s you that’s anti-Semitic in actuality. Freudian projection much?
Not referring to Gene, at Rad(ical)
Joachim Martillo doesn’t “dish” anti-Semitism here because he knows he can’t do so. I’ve told him so. But he does continue to comment here & is welcome to do so as long as he follows the rules. Just as you are until you violate them one time to many, & you will be gone.
Honestly no clue. I googled found a citation for the law and posted it. If doing that makes you an antiSemite then oh well, the term means nothing anymore apparently.
You’d think by the 21st century silly websites such as this one would learn how to even seem somewhat credible with some sort of design, but alas that does not seem to be the case. The text makes reference to a law which I’ve never heard of, and refers (if it indeed exists) to conversion to ANY religion done by the offering of money. If this law exists it would also be illegal to convert someone into Judaism, Islam, or anything else in this manner.
Anyway, I’ve seen Jews for Jesus, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and a load of other Christian groups hand out fliers and act in other missionary ways in main intersections in Israeli roads so I really doubt this law exists and if it does nobody enforces it or cares about it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Jews_for_Jesus_in_Tel_Aviv.jpg
This is from the US State Department’s 2009 Country Report on Israel, under Freedom of Religion:
“Offering or receiving material inducements for conversion, as well as converting persons under 18 years of age, remained illegal unless one parent was of the religion to which the minor wished to convert. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints refrained from proselytizing under an agreement with the government. While officially legal, missionaries faced harassment and discrimination by some Haredi (ultra-Orthodox Jewish) activists and organizations and certain local government officials.
The legal defense NGO Jerusalem Institute of Justice (JIJ) alleged that MOI officials denied services to certain citizens based on their religious beliefs. The JIJ had 70 such cases during the year, including many dealing with MOI attempts to revoke citizenship or failure to process immigration applications from persons entitled to citizenship under the Law of Return, if it was determined such persons held Messianic or Christian beliefs. The JIJ’s petitions to the Supreme Court in two such cases for a finding of contempt of court against the MOI continued at year’s end.
The MOI refused to implement the April 2008 Supreme Court decision according to which 12 Messianic Jewish immigration applicants, born to Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers, are entitled to receive citizenship.
The MOI has also revoked citizenship due to religious belief. On July 30, the Supreme Court overturned the MOI’s 2008 decision to revoke the citizenship of a family who immigrated in 1997 under the Law of Return. The court found no evidence of falsified information regarding Jewish identity although the wife was Christian and the husband a Messianic Jew. The MOI’s 2008 interrogation centered on the couple’s religious convictions.
Foreign tourists suspected of being Messianic Jews, belonging to religious minorities, or of being “missionaries” were detained and sometimes refused entry into the country at the airport. The JIJ and some religious leaders claimed that many cases involved direct questions of religious affiliation and beliefs. There were a number of press reports that the MOI inserted notations into its border control computers to identify alleged “missionaries,” influenced by Yad L’Achim’s antimissionary work. According to JIJ, the MOI has forced some visitors to sign a pledge to abstain from missionary activity as a precondition of release, and on March 13, required in addition a 189,199 NIS ($50,000) bail from a Christian family visiting from Hong Kong.
The petition of Barbara Ludwig, a German graduate student whom the MOI denied a visa renewal based on its determination that she was a Messianic Jew, was still pending at the end of the year. She was arrested in April 2008 for two days for failing to maintain a valid student visa and was criticized by the MOI for alleged “missionary” activity.”
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2009/nea/136070.htm
And then there’s this 2002 article from Haaretz, by way of oznik.com:
Converted to Islam? The Government Will Send You To A Psychiatrist
How telling that PersianAdvocate, who comes here to advocate on behalf of Iran and voice his anti-Israel/Jew sentiments, informs himself by consulting a patently, screamingly antisemitic website (“honestmediatoday”), one that couldn’t announce itself more clearly as a source for raw antisemtisim if it were to festoon its website with swastikas. And the post and the one before it claiming that it is illegal to convert to Christianity in Israel doesn’t get taken down?!
Big comment violation. If you want to lie about someone’s views here you won’t be here very long. Understand? Take this very seriously.
I’ve discussed the matter both in the threads & privately. That will be the end of it here. If you persist you’ll not last long here. There are loads of other sites that don’t have anything better to do than post this sort of nonsense. Undoubtedly you know who & where they are & can do so there to your hearts content.
Why should a post get taken down when the law exists. Do you have any proof it doesn’t? I also accept Shai’s contention that the law isn’t enforced. Again, that should be the end of discussion.
Rad, you do Shoah survivors and victims no favor throwing around that label. Truly and kindly sit on your thumb and spin. I am the farthest thing from an anti Semite and I am done being angry at you as soon as I hit submit on this comment. The judgment of your character comes not at my hands.
From the Article:
“Although it remains legal in Israel for a Christian to talk with an Israeli about Christ, Israel’s anti-missionary law, conspicuously passed during Christmas week on Dec. 27, 1977, makes it a crime punishable by up to 5 years in prison to attempt to convert an Israeli to Christianity by use of any material inducement. If a Christian gives even a gospel leaflet to an Israeli, he violates this law. Also, if the Israeli converts to Christianity after receiving the leaflet he himself could face 3 years in prison. 3
Of course, because of Israel’s dependence on Christian and American goodwill, this statute, while on the books, is not rigorously enforced. Israel has incarcerated 9,000 Palestinians without trial, yet remains reluctant to imprison even one American missionary. This could alienate the evangelical ‘cash cow’ whose resources are vital in keeping Israel’s sagging socialist economy afloat. For now, Israeli law enforcement walks a middle road, having to be content with partial measures against proselytizing.
Instead of jailing Christians, Israel demanded about five years ago that some 50 evangelical organizations which lead tours to Israel forbid their participants to witness while in the ‘Holy Land.’ All 50 agreed.
An acquaintance of mine, an itinerant preacher, described to me his experience of witnessing in Haifa last year. He and a friend began to talk with Israelis on the streets about Christ. The Israeli populace did not, in general, appreciate such concern for their souls. They followed the missionaries, yelling insults and surrounding them in mounting hostility. The shirt and beard of my friend were pulled violently. The police then seized and detained the two Christians. Yet while the angry crowd distracted the police, the missionaries slipped away and made their escape.”
Footnote 3 reads:
“The Penal Law Amendment (Enticement to Change Religion�Law, 5738-1977) was passed by Knesset during Christmas week (Dec. 27, 1977) and went into effect Easter week (April 1, 1978). Violation is punishable by 5 years in prison or a fine of 50,000 Israeli pounds (or the equivalent in shekels). It is enforced against those attempting to convert someone to their faith if a material benefit is offered. The state of Israel also metes out 3 years in prison, or a 30,000 Israeli pound fine, against a Jew who receives such materials and converts. The Law says: �1. Whoever gives or promises to a person money, money�s worth or some other material benefit in order to induce him to change his religion or in order that he may induce another person to change his religion is liable to imprisonment for 5 years or a fine of 50,000 pounds. 2. Whosoever receives or agrees to receive money, money�s worth or some other material benefit in return for a promise to change his religion or to cause another person to change his religion is liable for imprisonment for a term of 3 years or a fine of 30,000 pounds.”
It may be illegal for Christians to proselytize Jews or convert them in Israel. I don’t really know. Given our history with Christianity it would be pretty ballsy for the evangelicals to try to poach us right there in the Holy Land.
Isn’t this off topic?
He invoked Jesus on a day of remembrance for the Rabbi Yeshua (Jesus). You should learn from a fellow Jew from 2 millennium ago who was a hardcore liberal!
If you want to run a blog’s comment threads, run yr own. I don’t yr help in running my own.
I don’t think anyone can poach anyone of their beliefs if they are steadfast, Richard. I think the point isn’t that evangelicals should be able to solicit in Israel bar-none, the point is that if you are taking boat loads of cash from them, you can’t have your cake and eat it, too.
Ah well I abhor both the boatloads of cash AND the proselytizing. Israel doesn’t do a very good job of educating its young people about Judaism, at not those who are secular. I wish it did.
We have plenty of religous education here already. I wish we had none.
I didn’t mean Orthodox religious indoctrination. I meant genuinely creative & innovative exploration of the meaning of Jewish identity. And I wouldn’t impose such education on anyone as it’s likely done now. I would offer it for those who wanted it.
Right-wing “Christian Zionists” might be getting an early start of “the end-times”. They believe that Jesus will return after Jews have (all??) return to re-establish Israel. Forget that a modern state does not resemble an 8th century BCE kingdom. Having gathered, “the Jews” must all convert, and then Jesus will return.
It’s all in the “left behind” series, and based on a lunatic modern interpretation of Revelation. Yes, I’ve heard a “specialist in end times” preach that President Obama is “the anti-christ”.
(Incidentally, for a serious explanation of Revelations, read Bruce Metzger’s “Breaking the Code”.)
By the way, I assume anyone can see “Jesus” any day at the Allenby Street entrance to the Shook HaCarmel (sp?), sitting in the “lotus” position in a white robe. He has gathered some followers who light him a cigararette every now and then. Behind him is a karaoke truck, and beside them a band of Lubavitchers. Every now and then, Hari-krishnas dance through.
No idea what the law says, but I sense that the Israeli government treats visiting Christian groups differently than it treats Naim Ateek, and I have seen the siege against the Greek Orthodox of Beit Sahour.
The Israeli government did provide support (including funding) to Hamas during its formative years, in order to set up a foil for political ideas that it judged to be more threatening. Please remember that over a decade before Hamas was founded, Mahmoud Darwish was taken through the streets in shackles and locked in prison – for the crime of writing poetry that the Israeli authorities judged to be subversive. It is still not permissible to teach Darwish’s work in Israeli schools, and the suggestion that his poems should be introduced to the curriculum resulted in the launch of a motion of no confidence against the Barak government. The Israeli government was afraid of Palestinian voices long before it ever had cause to fear Palestinian terrorist attacks, and its early support for Hamas was a way of stifling those voices and causing them to splinter into discordant factions. ‘Divide and rule’ is hardly a new strategy, so why should it surprise you to see it being used here? The State of Israel certainly wasn’t the first country to use it, and it won’t be the last.
As for your apparent belief that Israeli governmental support for Hamas is just an unfounded claim made by Gene…Ehud Olmert’s government admitted in 2008 that the government was still funding Hamas. Openly. To quote Olmert’s office: “Due to conclusions that there is an Israeli interest that the transfer of funds continue, a decision was made to continue to transfer certain sums of money to the Gaza Strip.”
Who’s we? In which yeshiva were you educated, AHITOFEL?
BTW: Is AHITOPHEL a name or an oath?
Did someone say “creating Hamas”? Tick tick tick…loading Hasbara Form Auto-Reply:
—————
-=ISRAEL IS THE BIGGEST PRODUCER OF “TERRORISM” IN THE MIDDLE EAST=-
Israel labels Hamas and Hezbollah as the biggest “terrorist” threats against its illegal occupation and illegal settlements. However, Israel also is the reason that these organizations exist.
FACT: Hamas was upstarted and funded initially by Israel as a counterweight to Yasser Arafat. They were toying with Palestinian politics and this is what they got.
FACT: Hezbollah is a resistance organization that was borne out of a very long and illegal occupation of Lebanon by Israel.
FACT: No US interests were EVER attacked before Israel became our “stalwart ally” (for reasons no American can pinpoint precisely) by Arabs or Muslims for “terrorism”.
Michael Chertoff, an Israeli-American, is a dual citizen who ran our homeland security. His mother was the first stewardess of the infamous Gitmo in the air, El Al airlines. He brings us such wonders as the Chertoff Security Group Body Scan Devices, which were necessary only after his former department failed to fulfill its most fundamental mandate. When the TSA opt-out made news, El Al security consultants were touting Israeli security on CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, etc. Who wants to live in that police state? Who wants to live like they do under the constant threat of “terror”?
The United States must divest from Israel to save or troops in Afghanistan and Iraq from further risk and our homeland security. How come Canadians aren’t subject to 9/11s?
————-
We should be careful about these claims about Israel’s early relationship with Hamas. I think Israel saw Hamas as very useful in those days as a buffer against Fatah & Arafat. But I don’t know that it funded Hamas or had any direct involvement with it. I think Israel favored Hamas in the way it interpreted rules & regulations. It allowed Hamas to grow. It actively suppressed Fatah. But I’m not sure there was much more than that to it.
But certainly it’s accurate to say that Israel willingly used Hamas in its fight against Fatah.
I’ve read from reliable sources that Israel funded Hamas in the early years as a counterweight to Fatah nationalism but I can’t recall exactly where I heard it.
I did a quick google search,and apparently, according to David K. Shipler, who was once the NYT correspondent in Jerusalem, Yitzhak Segev, the military governor of the Gaza Strip, admitted that he directly funded Yassin and the Islamic Association that became Hamas.
It’s cited here, and several other places:
“In Arab and Jew (2002), the foreign correspondent David Shipler quotes the Israeli military governor of the Gaza Strip, Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, as describing how early on he had financed Islamic militants as a counterweight to the PLO: “The Israeli Government gave me a budget and the military government gives to the mosque,” thus nourishing the seeds of Hamas. Later Likud regimes then funded Village Leagues out of which emerged in 1987 the military arm of the Islamic Association that became Hamas, an acronym that translates into “zeal.” ”
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb6669/is_2_23/ai_n29287522/pg_5/?tag=untagged
there are other sites or articles that mention this but they all seem to trace back to Shipler’s book. It certainly seems to be a reliable report and is not at odds with Israeli actions, noting how intent they have been in fracturing Palestinian society and resistance.
The French-Israeli journalist Charles Enderlin wrote a very well-documented book on “Le grand aveuglement – Israël et l’irrésistible ascension de l’Islam radical” (The great blindness – Israel and the rise of Radical Islam) which starts out by describing the Israeli military governor participating in the inauguration of the Muslim Brotherhood’s HQ in Gaza in 1973 next to Sheikh Yassin.
The book is a study of the Israeli support for radical Islam in order to undermine Fatah and the left-wing groups.
Enderlin who has been literally hunted down since his famous al-Durra-scoop, said recently that he was convinced that “Karsenty Ltd”. were harassing him, not so much because of the filming of the al-Durra-murder, though it became world-known, but more because of his books, this one on Israël’s divide-and-rule politics and another that debunked “the generous offer” at Camp David.
Thanks for reporting this. I hadn’t heard this story though it’s certainly a credible one given that Shipler is an authoritative source. I would say though that Israel was far more directly involved in supporting the Village Leagues than Hamas as the former were directly a creature of Israel, while Hamas was founded w/o any help fr. Israel.
I actually researched it before claiming it. The lack of citations is a red herring for hasbarists to come out and deny it so I can prove them liars in the vein of Tree’s reply. :p
Completely off the point, I know: But what happened to Mary? Why do I never hear from her again? I miss her comments.
Not off the point at all, Elizabeth. I’ve been thinking the same about that, too. Where is she, and where have you been? And one or two others who have kept me coming to this site to get some educated and well thought opinions? You have all been missed. I certainly hope it isn’t because you’ve gotten bored by such hasbara harangues by the likes of Yorke, McCarthy, AHITOPHEL, Duck, et al. Seems only PersianAdvocat and I have been here helping Richard.
What’s weird is that I have seen her comment with a different email (her gravatar’s pattern was different) a few times. Maybe she’s just busy?
And I’m not sure Richard needs much help… and honestly sometimes your bizarre conspiracies embarrass him more than anything 😉 Don’t take this the wrong way, just messing with you.
Don’t mess with me. I have friends in Moscow!
Yes, Mary wrote recently that she had some problems with “intruders” spamming her e-mail address, and I think Richard also had received some spams from her.
Hopefully she hasn’t been detained by the FBI, I hear they’re pretty busy these days with pro-Palestinian activists.
Ughh, you threw me in with ahitofel as a hasbarist. How unkind.
I am sorry if I referred mistakenly to something he said and blamed you. Not sure exactly to what you’re referring here.
I was referring to gene, who put me on the list of “hasbara harangues”.
“one of my readers”
would it have been that hard to give real credit
and i submit that this ad is just as absurd as mast’s…which i believe is the point
neither is meant to increase dialogue…only to inflame passions
sure got you and your readers in a huff
I didn’t know you wanted credit. I’d be happy to offer it. And your comment is in this thread noting the link. But I’ll add you to the post as well. Sorry for the oversight. Didn’t know you cared about lefties like us giving you credit…
why not
i gave you the link, so as to show what the metro was talking about when they were alluding to the opposition ads
there were more, mostly funded by pam geller…and in the same vein as the above
none were meant to increase dialogue, but to inflame
however, cant have freedom of speech for some and not for others, so had the original ads been placed, the opposing ads would also need to be placed
but i wish that political ads had to stand the “truth in advertising” test….none of the ads do
simple as that
[comment deleted for comment rule violation]
Okay, so I finally had a chance to vet HonestMediaToday.com. I specifically had Google’d for “Israel law christian conversion” and it landed me on the page I linked above. The site’s URL is misleading somewhat and the page is full of disclaimers like “We are a hate-free media outlet”.
There are clearly things on the site that I do not agree with and I did myself a great disservice by referencing it. I defer to Richard when he says that it’s a holocaust denial site and anti-Jewish. It is. I am not into that nor do I deny the Holocaust.
Just so you know, neither does Iran, despite the rhetoric you hear. Former President of Iran, Mohammad Khatami illustrates the official Iranian stance here: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1533026,00.html
——————
TIME: Your successor [as president of Iran] has said that the Holocaust did not happen. How do you explain that?
Khatami: I personally believe that he really didn’t deny the existence of Holocaust. I believe the Holocaust is the crime of Nazism. But it is possible that the Holocaust, which is an absolute fact, a historical fact, would be misused. The Holocaust should not be, in any way, an excuse for the suppression of Palestinian rights.
————
“he’s talking about Fatah & the PA being terrorists”
Fatah – “Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades “- sent many suicide bombers during Intifiadah 2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
the ad should have ended with “…against it”
Back to Horowitz: there is a smaller “attack Iran” in NYC billboards.
I was surprised, when I visted Israel/Palestine last May, just how little ordinary Israelis knew about the double Wars of Iraq and Afghanistan. Astonished to discover than US Regular Army divisions are into their third deployments; Marines and Army Rangers more deployments for shorter times. The son of a friend, a Ranger Captain, just returned from his ninth deployment since 2002.
In addition to the 500,000 regulars, the US has about 400,000 Army National Guard, who are supposed to be activated during hurricanes, floods, invasions, and outright national emergencies. Every Guard unit has been deployed once, and some, such as the NY Guard, are on number two.
Regulars tend to be 19 year olds, kids, with 24 year old NCOs. Guards are more likely 30 – 35, school teachers, fire-fighters, little league coaches: people with families, businesses, careers. It punches a community in the gut when the ARNG deploys afor 18 months.
Why has President Obama been so eager to talk with Iran? This: in 2006, cowboy/president George Bush asked the US Air Force to bomb the Iranian nuclear plants. The Air Force said they could, more or less, hit a lot of targets, but that only grounds troops could destroy the plants the aircraft miss or only damage. Nobody wants an invasion that would be about ten times worse than Iraq.
Even George Bush had enough sense to know when to stop. Horowitz? I knew the guy when he was a Ramparts heavy. He has gotten stranger and stranger each year.