149 thoughts on “IDF Military Simulation Anticipates Civil Unrest, Concentration Camps After Israeli Palestinian Expulsions – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. I SEARIOUSLY doubt this is all for liberman.

    Firstly, I don’t think israel is quite crazy enough just yet to hold such a massive exercise just to somewhat flatter a politician.

    Secondly, the need to flatter him only jut arose – these things take months to plan, not days.

    Thirdly, you are assuming liberman is actually for a two-state-transfer solution. I rather doubt this isn’t just a lie, and he’s really looking for a one-state-kick the arabs to jordan solution.

  2. Concentration camps? Really?

    First, no need to make reality worse than it is. It says detention camp, in an extreme scenario. Second, extreme is not something that anyone believes to be likely.

    1. What’s the diff. bet. a “concentration camp” & “detention camp?” You mean in a detention camp the detainees won’t be summarily executed but they might be tortured? Isn’t that a tad too nuanced to make a serious diff.?

  3. The wikipedia entry on “Population transfer” has clearly been written by some ultra-Zionist. Look at the sections ‘Israel/Palestine 1948-1967’ and ‘Arab Countries 1948-1973’.

    You get the impression that the Palestinian Nakba and the Jewish exodus from the Arab world were part of the some kind of ‘exchange of population’. That was maybe the case in Ben Gourion’s head . .

    The only reference to the Nakba is Benny Morris’: The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem. REVISITED, i.e after he turned completely Likudnik.

    After retirement, I guess there is a full time job waiting to participate in ‘the War on Wikipedia’:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t52LB2fYhoY
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/18/wikipedia-editing-zionist-groups

    There was an interesting article yesterday in HaAretz on the Lieberman transfer-proposition:
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/coldly-considering-the-unthinkable-1.317816

  4. Although this report sounds like a paranoid conspiracy theory or a rehash of certain elements of German history, Israel *is* a paranoid nation. And it already has 60 years of experience in moving a large number of people out of their homes and villages. Israel has even used these skills on their own people in Gaza. Works great, lasts a long time.

    And then Israel has a long history of considering such population exchanges, even before the Nakba. For example, “Transfer of population as a solution to international disputes: Population exchanges between Greece and Turkey as a model for plans to solve the Jewish-Arab dispute in Palestine during the 1930s” by Yossi Katz, Department of Geography, Bar Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, 2002.

    Good heavens. They thought of it even before the Nazis.

    1. Are the plans Katz talked about *Zionist* plans, or are you just ranting? Did this idea not appear in the non-Zionist Peel commission report of 1936? Helps to check the facts.
      My point is not that this is an acceptable idea of course – it’s not, Lieberman is a Fascist child-beater of a thug, etc. – but that it seems unfair to blame the Zionists (and label them proto-Nazi, no less!) for an idea that appears in the British Peel report, don’t you think? Seems like the British are those who “thought of it even before the Nazis.”

      1. You think that was ranting? I can rant if you like. But, yes, I believe Zionism shares some of the same German Nationalist roots that also nurtured Nazism. Israel, especially since the time of the Revisionists, has been a criminal enterprise.

        1. I think it was, because you deliberately distorted the facts re the specific issue at hand (ie solutions for the Israel-Palestine conflict suggested during the 1930s) so that people who are unfamiliar with the facts would think the Zionists are those behind the population exchanges idea, when in fact it was the British. This is poisoning the debate with disinformation, and that is one of the lamest ways possible to advance your own views, because anyone can just come up with lies, and people who are not as informed as I am, for example, will just take your word and this is frustrating for people like me who think that the truth matters.
          It is true that Zionism was at heart a nationalist movement, but not more so than any of the other nationalist movements that brought about the modern state as we know it in Europe and in America. So if you think that Israel as a whole is a “criminal enterprise” (as opposed to the 1967 occupation, which I think should be terminated immediately), you would have to think that the US is a criminal enterprise too. Silly, unbased comparisons to Nazism are no more convincing when made by anti-Zionists (who for some reason have nothing against other national movements, and don’t refer to them as “sharing the roots of Nazism”), then when made by right wing idiots like Glenn Beck.

  5. In Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo, forced population transfer was the cause of war and NATO intervention, in Israel, it’s a peace plan.

    Does Mossad have its men out, looking for an Archduke to mallet?

  6. RE: “This is what creeping fascism is all about. A seed is planted, watered, nurtured. And after a period of gestation and germination it grows into a noxious weed in the body politic that cannot be eradicated at any expense.” – R.S.
    CHANCE THE GARDENER* (A/K/A CHANCE GARNER) SEZ: You might want to try Roundup Ready® genetically engineered (GE) seeds by Monsanto™!
    My Genetically Modified Fruit Bit Me Back (JPEG) – http://benchlandblog.com/2009/07/imagine-no-monsanto/
    *played by Peter Sellers
    Being There Movie Trailer (VIDEO, 02:45) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcPQ9gww_qc

  7. This story strikes me as one of the most important ones I’ve seen in a while. As you note, the timing is particularly suspicious: why simulate ethnic cleansing in the MIDDLE of the crisis about negotiating a resolution for an earlier ethnic cleansing?

    Yossi Gurvitz has a worthwhile post on the subject, as well. http://ygurvitz.net/?p=54

  8. I have to agree with Shai. “Concentration camp” is a loaded term that serves only to inflame. The reality of the situation is serious enough, no need to exaggerate and distort. There are no crematoria and gas chambers being built.

    1. ‘Concentration camps’ do not necessarily imply crematories and gas chambers. There is a difference between ‘concentration’ and ‘extermination’ camps, though in popular language people tend to mix them up. In Auchwitz, both existed.
      The French had concentration camps in Algeria during their colonial rule there, for instance.

      I know lots of people don’t like the use of ‘concentration camps’ for anything else but the Jewish Holocaust, but nobody own that word even though Elie Wiesel and Company pretend it’s theirs alone.

      1. I did not mix the two. Concentration camps serve an entirely different purpose from detention camps. The latter, per simulation, will be populated only with extremely violent usurpers.

        1. Usurpers, really? Like the Japanese Americans during WW II, who, as everyone knows, wanted to usurp the government, or Boers in the second Boer war?

          The distinction to be made is between extermination camp and concentration camp, not between “concentration” and “detention” camp, a distinction without a difference in this context.

          Just as an aside, there were not two but three camps in Auschwitz – camp I was a “normal” concentration camp, camp II, aka Birkenau, was the extermination camp that most people associate with “Auschwitz”, and camp III was for forced labourers in the nearby IG Farben factories.

          1. Belsen, the labour camp, actually managed a higher death rate than many of the purpose-built extermination camps, simply by having worse hygiene -and no effective machinery for disposing of huge numbers of bodies. To the extent that in the final days of the NAZI regime, Himmler was desperately negotiating with British forces to move forward and take control of the nightmare before the half dozen different potential pandemics within got out.

            One can quite imagine the IDF following the same path, especially if they were under external military pressure, until their detention camp had many more people in it than was safe, gathered from who knows where.

            The other danger in “detention camps” is that they do indeed come to house dangerous criminals, along with dozens of others who are only potential victims for those criminals.

            That’s what really went wrong with Tony Blair’s own detention camp at Yarl’s Wood. And, believe me, it went wrong: we could smell ash all over Bedford for weeks after the fire, which was started by the criminal inmates to cover their attempts to murder or abduct a Russian journalist who’d been locked up with them. Despite the Blair Government’s conclusion that nobody died, he and seven others haven’t been traced yet.

            Any Israeli journalist reading this might try raising the issue of the detention camp with Tony Blair the next time he descends on Jerusalem to bestow peace, with reference to what happens when detention camps go up in smoke.

        2. Concentration camp is an entirely appropriate term. It is a camp where civilians are detained without trial and entirely on the whims of the executive branch of government, usually for reasons of “security”.
          This definition includes the original Boer war concentration camps as well as other, later examples.

      2. You make valid points Deïr Yassin but what is being described isn’t a concentration camp – not by Auschwitz standards and not by Algerian standards. Like Shai said, it’s more of a detention camp or, what I think is even more accurate, a prison camp as it is being reserved for the extremely violent.

        1. Why be picky over semantics, when the purpose is clear – the camps are for detaining and segregating Arabs living within “israel.” For heaven’s sake, look at the picture instead of quibbling over whether it’s been painted in oils or watercolors.

          The fact that these “provisions” are being made is cause for alarm. Forced “transfer” of human beings is something made infamous many times over in history – it is a grotesque violation of human rights and dignity, and of course Israel is no stranger to using such tactics and has no qualms about using them again.

          Why now? It’s obvious. Although the peace talks are just a sham, the idea is to impress upon the Palestinians that should they agree to a peace plan, Israel will implement a mass deportation of Arabs from Israel proper into Palestine. This is of course what neither “side” wants. It is obviously just another tactic by Netanyahu’s coalition to intimidate and frighten the Arab people into backing down.

          1. I take it that you can’t read Hebrew, Mary, so I’ll be the one to tell you that what you’re describing is wrong, and its not what is written in the report.
            This is not a forced transfer but a part of a peace agreement that hypothetically will be signed with the PA.. Meaning they agreed for this.
            And on a side note, you’re saying that forced tranfser of human beings is horrible and is violating human rights.. But I find it hard to believe that you shed a tear when Israelis were eradicated from Gaza, or probably be eradicated from parts of the West Bank in the future. (! I supported the Gaza disengagement and support a future one from the West Bank ! [For the record]).
            And in addition, another point..
            The Palestinians have made it clear that they will allow no Israeli to settle in the future Palestinian state’s territory, so why should Palestinians be allowed in Israel? (They both of course should be allowed)

          2. This is not a forced transfer

            Certainly it is forced. Do you think the Israeli Palestinian citizens are willingly being removed from Israel? Are you going to consult them & get their approval? Of course not. Therefore it is forced. The PA cannot agree to the expulsion of Israeli Palestinians from Israel. They do not current represent such individuals. Only Israeli Palestinian citizens of Israel can agree to this. They don’t & won’t.

            Israelis in Gaza were colonists sent there by their gov’t & maintained there by force imposed on the local Palestinian population. Israel’s Palestinians are citizens of Israel who lived there even before there was a state.

            The Palestinians have made it clear that they will allow no Israeli to settle in the future Palestinian state’s territory

            That is a lie & you’re only the 10th Israeli apologist to advance it here. Ahmed Qureia explicitly invited Israeli settlers to remain in Palestine as long as they accept Palestinian citizenship & sovereignty. Rabbi Menachem Froman is an example of someone who embraces this prospect.

          3. Roy, do you think all those people are going to voluntarily participate in a “population transfer”? And leave the homes they’ve lived in all their lives without putting up a fight? Really, are you serious?

          4. You’re deluded. No Palestinian gov’t will ever accept 1 million Israelis under its sovereignty. Any Palestinian gov’t which even contemplated doing so would be toppled in 5 minutes. So it won’t just be a few thousand Palestinians resisting this lunacy. It will be the entire Israeli Palestinian population along w. every Palestinian living in what will be the new Palestinian state. They will all resist. Good luck w. that.

          5. [Richard]

            No Palestinian gov’t will ever accept 1 million Israelis under its sovereignty.

            It might actually be a relatively quick detour to a reunion of the two states under terms more likely than would be today to prevent disenfranchisement of the new Palestinian citizens of the resulting “Israstine”. Closer to Ali Abunimah’s One-State than Tzipi Hotovely’s.

        2. Then why the hurry emptying Israeli prisons? Are they seen as not safe enough for the “extremely violent”? Or will all the cells in all the prisons not suffice to hold thousands and thousands of these “extremely violent” – a designation that I’d expect, as so much in this conflict, to completely defy common sense.

          The term “concentration/internment camp” is defined by its purpose, not by its standards.

          1. Richard –
            “That is a lie & you’re only the 10th Israeli apologist to advance it here. Ahmed Qureia explicitly invited Israeli settlers to remain in Palestine as long as they accept Palestinian citizenship & sovereignty. Rabbi Menachem Froman is an example of someone who embraces this prospect.”

            Would you please stop calling me names?
            That childish name calling game only shows how low you people get whenever you hear an opinion different than yours.
            You should be ashamed that you participate in this.. Freedom of Speech my ass. (Sorry for that)
            And forgive me, but I have my doubts over the ‘keeping’ the settlers thing. I don’t think the Palestinians will accept thousands of Israeli citizens to be a part of their long awaited state.. But that’s OK for you. Its when Israel is calling for a land swap that you get all red.
            Hypocrisy, someone?

          2. I’ll stop calling you names when you either research yr claims before making them or else stop making false claims.

            I don’t mind the type of minor land swaps called for by the Geneva Accords. So you are wrong again in claiming I’m opposed to land swaps. I AM opposed to land swaps under the guise of ethnic cleansing.

          3. Richard –
            “I’ll stop calling you names when you either research yr claims before making them or else stop making false claims.”

            Look who’s talking.. You base your all rant on a single, short report on the radio.
            I’m the only one in here that is making any claims.. You and your minions are only busy in cursing those who don’t agree with you.

            “I don’t mind the type of minor land swaps called for by the Geneva Accords. So you are wrong again in claiming I’m opposed to land swaps.”

            Where did I claimed that?

            “I AM opposed to land swaps under the guise of ethnic cleansing.”

            You mean ethnic cleansing under the guise of land swaps?
            That’s your interpretation of a report that says no such thing.
            Either you’re lying, or you don’t know Hebrew as good as you think you do.

      3. You’re being a little disingenuous Deïr Yassin. The use of the term “Concentration camp” in the title is punctuated by a photo of a Jewish kid on a March of the Living trip to an actual concentration/death camp – probably the most infamous of its kind – Auschwitz. As such it behooves me to note that the juxtaposition is inaccurate and even a bit offensive.

        1. # Pea)
          You have to decide whether I “make a valid point” as in your first reply or am “a little disingenuous” and “even a little offensive” as five hours later. Both statements can’t hardly be valid for my comment of 3-4 lines.

          This blog has a rather sophisticated comment system. When you use the reply button directly under a comment, it means that you’re answering this particular comment. If you’re commenting on the article you don’t use that reply button. So I answered your comment and NOT Richard’s article.
          I thus commented on your “concentration camp is a loaded term that serves to inflame. . . There are no crematoria and gas chambers being built”. YOU brought up the crematoria and gas chambers.
          I pointed out that a concentration camp does not always have crematoria and gas chambers.

          Well, if that is ‘a little bit offensive’, you must live in a very protected world.

          And I insist again: the ‘concentation camp’ vocabulary does not belong to the Jewish genocide only. And I do very well understand what you’re insinuating by yours ‘a little bit offensive’. Too well.

        2. The use of the picture was deliberate on my part since I believe that a concentration camp for Palestinians could easily become what a concentration camp for Jews became. If you’re offended either get over it or move on.

          1. Right. Mass industrialized murder of Palestinians is right around the corner in Israel. I strongly disagree. The fact that you can even suggest that such a thing is “easily” possible shows that your understanding of Israel and Israeli society is grossly inaccurate. This is coming from a person who does not shy away from criticizing Israel for the many civil and human rights violations that occur in Israel every day. Like Shai said, the situation in Israel is problematic enough that there is no need to distort and exaggerate. In fact, such distortion and exaggeration only serves to stymie progress.

          2. Mass industrialized murder of Palestinians is right around the corner in Israel

            Did I say that? No. Did you claim I said it? Yes. False. Don’t attribute to me views or arguments I don’t hold. And I mean that. Attribute views to me that I hold & characterize my views accurately. To say that mass murder of Palestinians is easy or not easy isn’t the point. The point is that the road that gets you there is precisely the one that is currently being followed. And the question is what, if anything are you doing to stop it? I can tell you one thing, the comments you write here aren’t doing a damn thing to do so. In fact, they indicate that once again are a liberal apologist for an Israeli exercise that simulates the eradication of Israeli Palestinians from Israel. And I find such apologism to be troubling & morally bankrupt.

            coming from a person who does not shy away from criticizing Israel for the many civil and human rights violations that occur in Israel every day.

            You haven’t ever criticized an Israeli human rights violation in this blog that I can recall. On the contrary, you seem to like most taking snarky potshots at my views.

            such distortion and exaggeration only serves to stymie progress.

            Gimme a break. Yr criticism is so mindless & vacuous it almost defies belief. What progress is there to stymie?

          3. Mass muder of arabs in israel IS around the corner. I’m sorry you can’t see that.

            As I wrote here before, Israel already has the moral foundation for it, all it lacks is proper initiative, which is, for now, being built up gradually.

            What’s even more likely is the death of democracy here (as if we ever had one).

            Both genocide and tyranny are nearly a sure thing the way things are going now – even before demography kicks in and we’ll have an ultra-orthodox majority.

          4. even before demography kicks in and we’ll have an ultra-orthodox majority.

            Wouldn’t it be weird if most of the secular Israeli Jews left & the only remaining residents of Israel were Palestinians & ultra-Orthodox? How weird that would be–& sad.

          5. Richard, you said:

            I believe that a concentration camp for Palestinians could easily become what a concentration camp for Jews became.

            So I asked myself, what did a concentration camp for Jews become? A site for mass industrialized murder. You illustrated this post with a photo of a death camp, what was I supposed to think you meant when you wrote “easily become?”

            I’ll just ignore the false opinions and attitudes you attribute to me. It seems to me that anyone that disagrees with you is automatically deemed “mindless & vacuous.” I get no discussion, just childish name calling, whereas those who agree with you get away with blatant comment rule violations. I guess my comments wouldn’t attract so much venom if I threw in the occasional “I agree wholeheartedly!” but that just seems, well, childish. But whatever, it’s your blog. You do what you like. Me? I have to live here and deal with the consequences of distortions from both the right and the extreme left. Sucks to be me.

          6. You illustrated this post with a photo of a death camp

            No, I illustrated the post with a picture of one of 3 camps at Auschwitz only one of which was a death camp, and not the one pictured. Read the comment thread here & you’ll learn a lot more than you know about the Holocaust & Auschwitz. I know I did.

            BTW, you still haven’t pointed out any criticism of Israel which you’ve ever levelled here. Considering you criticize Israel every day (or so you claim), couldn’t you spare some here as well? Or do you save yr criticism for others, perhaps David Abitbol & yr friends at Jewlicious? I doubt it. You don’t criicize Israel there either, I’d guess.

          7. We are not leaving – simply being overrun.
            Secular jews are already a large minority.
            Ultra-orthodox are now a majority among young children.
            Very soon extreme muslims and jews will be at each others throats, and secular moderates will be a minority by virtue of demography.

          8. Richard: I’ve been to Auschwitz. I’ve also been to Dachau. I’ve even been to Babi Yar. You have no idea what I do and don’t know about the Holocaust, nor is that information particularly germane to this discussion. Neither is the frequency or the content of my critique of Israel. This is your blog, not mine.

            The kid in the photo was in Poland not because of the labor camps or the satellite camps. He was there because of Birkenau. That’s what March of the Living kids do, they march from the Auschwitz base camp to the Birkenau extermination camp. The two are practically adjacent to each other, less than half a mile apart. Montowitz, the closest labor camp next to the IG Farben factory is over three miles away as the crow flies. The kids don’t march there. And there weren’t three satellite camps at Auschwitz, there were 3 main camps, the base camp, Birkenau the death camp, Montowitz the closest labor camp and another 45 satellite camps spread over many miles.

            The photo is of a kid making his way from the base camp to Birkenau. While the base camp was an administrative center, about 70,000 people (mostly Russian and Polish prisoners) were nonetheless murdered there and this was where the first gas chamber and crematoria were built and used. Sounds like a death camp to me… or at the very least a pretty deadly camp…

            Consequently, I can’t help but view your use of this particular photo in this post as, at the very least, extremely manipulative or incredibly ignorant. You ought to have known, that people would automatically assume that you were suggesting that death camps for Palestinians were well on their way and real possibility, if not now then at least within the next 7 years (Hitler became Chancellor in 1933 – Auschwitz was operational in 1940).

            As for Jewlicious and David Abitbol, I have never left a comment on that site, nor is it one that I frequent on any sort of regular basis – unless one of my friends sends me a link or something. That’s yet another irrelevant red herring you’ve thrown out there in order to avoid dealing with the substance of what I’ve been saying.

          9. I can’t help but view your use of this particular photo in this post as, at the very least, extremely manipulative or incredibly ignorant.

            You can view it any way you want. Others reading your comment will judge for themselves. There’s no crematorium in this picture nor any paraphenalia of death. If there had been I wouldn’t have used it. I used this merely because it showed an Israeli flag & a Nazi camp.

            And as for Abitbol you’ve regularly defended him and his behavior here. It ain’t a red herring…by your friends so shall ye know them.

          10. Sorry Richard, but I am a stickler for facts. And Conflating Nazi Germany with Israel… how can anyone reasonable not be offended? In any case, I think we’ve both made our points adequately. No sense beating a dead horse.

          11. Issac Herzog did it saying Israel was going down the road to “fascism.” I didn’t notice you criticize him Or did you? No? I wonder why not?

            how can anyone reasonable not be offended?

            Now, I take my readers to be reasonable people, yet not a single one beside you objected. Which either means they ARE reasonable & you are not; or you are & they are not. Given that there are thousands of them & one of you, I’ll take the former option.

    2. Of course the camps would be concentration camps. Camps where the population intended to be transferred out of the country are collected against their own will. And they will be controlled using violent and extreme discipline.

      If Palestinians would collect the settlers in camps to wait for transfer you would have no difficulty to call the camps as concentration camps. Even if the treatment in those hypothetical camps would be better than in Israeli camps.

      1. No, no, and again no.
        Those supposed ‘camps’ (Side note: This all thing is based on a short report from a radio station) won’t be there to accommodate the Palestinians population in the area, but to serve as detention camps for (Be it) dozens/hundreds/whatever violent (As in “trying to kill Israelis”) ‘protesters’ and dangerous rogue Hamas gunmen.

        1. No, these camps will exist for any Palestinian who resists this evi, whether violent or not. Why else would Israel empty its own jails within 24 hrs? Because it needs room for a few hundred Palestinian malcontents?

          1. That’s your own interpretation and definitely not what is written in the short and sole report on this supposed drill.
            I suggest that you’ll bring facts to the table or your arguments will keep falling one after the other.
            The jails will be emptied of their illegal inhabitants(trespassers etc) so they’ll be able to accommodate the possibly(!) hundreds of Hamas men and others who will participate in a supposed uproar, coup, or new intifada.
            You are simply lying when you say that every Palestinian will just be taken from the street and thrown in there.

          2. I virtually translated the entire article. Point out to me a single mistranslation. I never said that “every Palestinian” will be taken anywhere. That again is a deliberate lie & a violation of my comment rules. If you mischaracterize my views another time, future comments will be moderated. I said that anyone who resists the ethnic cleansing will be thrown in a concentration camp. That’s why Israel will need all those prison cells & they’ll be building a camp at Golani junction.

          3. Richard –
            “a violation of my comment rules. ”

            Since when do you care about the comment rules?
            Oh wait, they don’t apply to you. Right.
            A real dictatorship you got going on in here, Richard.

            “If you mischaracterize my views another time, future comments will be moderated. ”

            Says the one who is sure that he knows exactly what MY views are.
            Funny.

            “I said that anyone who resists the ethnic cleansing will be thrown in a concentration camp. That’s why Israel will need all those prison cells & they’ll be building a camp at Golani junction.”

            Anyone who will take part in a violent uprising will be detained, yes. Is that wrong? Are we living in an anarchy? If one would start throwing Molotov cocktails at cars in NY, would he not get arrested?
            This exercise is to simulate an Intifada, and as we all know its means a lot of people engaged in a lot of violent incidents.

          4. A real dictatorship you got going on in here

            Your future comments will be moderated.

            If one would start throwing Molotov cocktails at cars in NY, would he not get arrested?

            If the United States agreed to change its borders so that the borough of Brooklyn became part of Canada, everyone in Brooklyn and half of NY would arise in rebellion & justifiably so. They wouldn’t have enough prisons to hold everyone who would resist this insanity.

            This isn’t an Intifada as in past Intifadas, this is Palestinian resistance deliberately & flagrantly provoked by Israeli racist policies. And resistance to such ethnic cleansing would be justified.

            Enough on this subject. You’ve said your piece. Move on to another subject.

      2. Using the word ‘concentration camp’ apparently is a taboo to certain people.
        Well, I looked it up on ‘wikipedia’ to have a basic definition. It fits exacly with a – for the time being – hypothetical mass detention of Palestinians in Israel.

        Take a look at the entries
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment#Concentration_camps
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps

        You’ll see, it is used for the camps during the military dictatorship in Argentina, former Yougoslavia and so on, the list is long. So why couldn’t it be used for an Israeli mass detention of Palestinians ??

        1. I’m afraid that the camps used during the military dictatorship in Argentina didn’t fall all that far short of the NAZI ones.

          The adults going through them were systematically killed in their tens of thousands, usually by being sedated and thrown out of aircraft over the South Atlantic.

          The specific term “genocide” needs to be avoided, though, as the children of those murdered were invariably saved alive, to be adopted and brought up by supporters of the regime. “Mass murder and child kidnap” will do fine.

          There is an ongoing battle by relatives of the “disappeared” to trace and contact the lost grandchildren and nephews, with almost incomprehensible levels of heartbreak along the way.

          I hope that you didn’t mean to suggest that if the Israeli-built camp was only as bad as the Argentinian ones, it’d be okay. Because they were places of execution, not detention.

          The present government of Argentina wants everyone to forget that any of this ever happened, and they find the relatives of the disappeared something of an embarrassment. Please don’t help them to pretend it was an ordinary event or that it never happened.

          1. I meant that the Junta clearly didn’t intend to erase the genetic line, only the parent’s “bad” political ideology. You are right about the legal definition, though.

            If the Nazi genocide was based on the nature theory, the Junta was evidently working on the nurture theory.

          2. # Medawar)
            No, I didn’t mean to suggest anything like that.
            In fact, I lived in Argentina during my childhood, members of my paternal family is still living there, and I am then well aware of the cruelty of the dictatorship.

            By the way, I recommend a beautiful film “Une historia oficial” by Luis Puenzo (1985) based on a true story. A teenager who realises that her real parents are not the high ranking officer and his wife with whom she grew up, but a couple of ‘disaparecidos’.

            No, I was giving the link to a list of concentrations camps because it is apparently a taboo to certain, that this vocabulary is used for anything else that the Jewish Holocauste.

    3. There are no crematoria and gas chambers being built.

      I hate to say this but…not yet. And let me ask you: how do you think the Nazis began? Do you think they built those crematoria in 1933? No. There was a gradual progression that led up to the Holocaust. I’m not claiming Israel is going to get to that pt. I think if it did hopefully the world would intervene as it did in Kosovo & Rwanda. But if the world reacted more strongly in 1933, then we might not have witnessed what happened to Jews in 1943-45. Same thing w. Israel: resist now, stop Occupation now so we don’t face something far worse later.

      1. We all know how the world just couldn’t believe what Hitler was doing, so it turned its collective back. The world cannot afford to continue its denial of the unspeakable.

        I saw Operation Cast Lead as a very bad omen. The wholesale slaughter of the Palestinian people and the amazing use of overwhelming violence convinces me that the Israelis are capable of literally anything.

  9. You’re falsifying the facts, Richard, and that’s disgusting.
    There’s no mention of any Liebermanish plan in the report, neither does it say that any concentration camps will be built.
    What it does say, is that in a case of a PEACE AGREEMENT(!) (Not a personal initiative) with the PA (that includes a population exchange), Hamas and other elements opposing the peace process and do not accept the PA’s authority over the future Palestinian state, will heat up the area and cause an uproar. In this case detention camps and jails will be ready to accept dangerous and violent protesters and in turn, gunmen.
    The use of ‘concentration camps’ implies that there will be no reason for them to be there, and that the Palestinians as a whole will just be thrown in there for no legal aspect.
    The most important part in this is that its all in case of an uproar following a PEACE AGREEMENT.

    1. You amazing fascist, you. You’re saying that “unwanted elements” – the legally elected government of Gaza – must step down and allow the PA to take over or else be rounded up into camps? What this amounts to, essentially, is the continued occupation of Israel by proxy, with the PA acting as judenraat.

      “In this case detention camps and jails will be ready to accept dangerous and violent protesters and in turn, gunmen.”

      Hamas is the legally elected representative of the Palestinian people. You’re saying a massive, illegal coup backed by the Israeli government will take place. And you’re saying that “dangerous and violent protesters and…gunmen” do not have either the human or the legal right to resist (which indeed they do).

      “Population exchange” indeed. How about kicking the illegal settlers out of the West Bank, for starters?

      1. Fascist? We’re down to name calling now?
        I believe this is against the posting’s rules. Plus, nothing in my post has any connection to fascism or things of that nature. This is extremely insulting.
        I demand an apology.

        And now addressing the rest of your personal attack on me for no apparent reason.. (Can’t we have a civilized discussion? Even if you do not agree with me?)
        The PA is the internationally recognized governing body of the Palestinians and their cause, and were violently pushed out of Gaza by Hamas after the elections even though Hamas had the majority of votes. An unjustified act, a condemned one.
        Just to add something in the nature of the recent posts here.. Hitler was democratically elected too.

        1. I don’t care if name-calling is against the rules – it’s up to Richard to decide what to do with what I said, but I won’t apologize for it. You’ve appalled me beyond reason, Roy.

          Go back and read what you said, and tell me it is not fascistic to engineer a military and civil coup of an elected government – it’s called “regime change,” and it is a violation of international law. By the same token, mass arrests and detentions of members of an unapproved of political party, something Israel is already guilty of, is in your scenario now including civil protesters deemed “dangerous” by the junta. If this isn’t fascism, then you tell me what it is.

          1. Wait, we were just talking about the outcome of a peace treaty with the Palestinians, not the Hamas takeover of Gaza.

            You are the master of double standards.

        2. Fascist

          My comment rules prohibit gratuitous use of sloganeering & insults such as that word. But in your case you’re defending this military exercise which is clearly an effort to eradicate Israeli Palestinians from Israel. I view such an eventuality as the destruction of Israeli democracy and its replacement by something akin to a fascist regime. So I think calling you “fascist” in this context is warranted & you won’t be getting an apology unless you wish to rethink yr support of Lieberman’s transferist policies & the mission of this exercise to prepare for their implementation.

          1. I DO NOT SUPPORT LIEBERMAN’S POLICIES!
            I demand that you’ll stop putting words in my mouth as if you know where I stand on any little thing.
            This is an absolute madness calling me a fascist for the little I wrote in my post, and doesn’t add any class to you and this blog.
            Further more, This exercise is not for eradicating people from their homes, but to prepare the police and military forces for a case of a renewed intifada(!).
            You’re lying about this proudly, and its disgusting.
            You base your little post on a little report, that mentions nothing of what you’re claiming.

          2. So you support the goal of the exercise in preparing for the expulsion of Israel’s Palestinian citizens from Israel, but you don’t support Lieberman’s policies. YOu support the redrawing of borders so that most Israeli Palestinians will be forcibly removed from Israel, yet you don’t support Lieberman’s policies. What do I have wrong here? You claim the exercise was preparing “merely” for an Intifada w/o mentioning the reason for the Intifada–an Israeli ethnic cleansing campaign (ah yes, I forgot the cleansing will allegedly happen in the context of a peace agreement which the PA will miraculously agree to of course).

            The report was written by Carmen Menashe, one of Israel’s most distinguished military correspondents. It wasn’t a “little” report, but quite important.

          3. I’m gonna have to defend roy here.

            You guys are acting like an immune system – once exposed to a harmful agent, you overreact to any similar object.

            Roy may be wrong or naive, but he hardly seems like a fascist. And he has been fairly civil. I’d hate to think you are being so worn out by the true fascists that you can’t tolerate any dissenting voice in this forum.

          4. I have, and I may be wrong.

            Even if I’m wrong in this case, and I don’t concede that, overreaction seems to be a trend in this blog, and that worries me. I don’t want this blog to lose credibility – it’s growing in influence, which means anything said here is going to be scrutinized by right wingers to discredit it’s contribution.

          5. Richard –
            “So you support the goal of the exercise in preparing for the expulsion of Israel’s Palestinian citizens from Israel, but you don’t support Lieberman’s policies. YOu support the redrawing of borders so that most Israeli Palestinians will be forcibly removed from Israel, yet you don’t support Lieberman’s policies.”

            Again you’re putting words in my mouth.
            As I’ve said, this exercise is not for preparing for an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, but for preparing for a possible uprising in case of a peace agreement with the PA.
            As for the redrawing of borders..
            It’ll be naive to assume that any future peace agreement with the Palestinians won’t include land swaps of any sort.
            Every past process had them, and every future one will have them.
            And the Palestinians aren’t necessarily opposing it, if at all.

            “The report was written by Carmen Menashe, one of Israel’s most distinguished military correspondents. It wasn’t a “little” report, but quite important.”

            You mean Carmela Menashe?
            I will not ‘diss’ her reputation as she’s a fairly good reporter, but she isn’t special or superior to other mainstream reporters.
            And it was a ‘little’ report, Richard. Come on.
            Some would even call it a simple newsflash..

          6. this exercise is not for preparing for an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, but for preparing for a possible uprising in case of a peace agreement with the PA.

            This is a delbierately incomplete description of the story. It is preparation for Israeli Palestinian and Hamas resistance to a peace agreement in which the borders of Israel would be altered so that Israeli Palestinians would be forcibly expelled from Israel. I simply will not allow you to be disingenuous or lie both of which you are doing.

            And the Palestinians aren’t necessarily opposing it, if at all.

            That too is a lie. Palestinians both inside & outside Israel completely oppose any land swap which would disposses Israeli Palestinians from Israel. YOu know this. And if you try to say this stupid garbage again, you won’t publish another comment here.

        3. ‘The PA is the internationally recognized governing body of the Palestinians and their cause, and were violently pushed out of Gaza by Hamas after the elections even though Hamas had the majority of votes. An unjustified act, a condemned one.”

          You don’t seem to know that the US and Israel instigated a civil war between Hamas and Fatah. The Palestinians were forming a unity government, but the US didn’t want that. There was an article on this in the April 2008 Vanity Fair and it was discussed in a recent New York Review of Books article (not the latest one, but I think the earlier October issue).

          So you are either ignorant about this, which is understandable, or deeply cynical.

          1. A conspiracy theory is it? Ha.
            Please, it’ll take more than an article in VF to make something true.
            Hamas won the majority of votes.. Yes. Right after that they went on a rampage against the Fatah in Gaza, that continues to this day.

    2. neither does it say that any concentration camps will be built.

      I guess you missed the passage which explicitly said such a camp was built at Golani junction.

      As for whether inmates of concentration camps are there for a reason or no reason, I’m sure Israel would feel such inmates would be there for a reason just as Germany felt the Jews were sent to its camps for good reason. Certainly, if a Palestinian was sent to such a camp it would be due to resistance against expulsion of Israel’s Palestinian population. But the rest of the world will not see such resistance as you or Israel do. You’ll have a very big problem convincing the world that the sin isn’t yours first & foremost.

  10. HI,

    I have reading your posts for a while and am trying to figure out why you have such a thing against Israel. I understand you are a proud Jew and think that Israel might possibly be a good thing, but everything you write represents something completely different.

    What is it that makes you convey such hate and disgust for the Jewish State. Just wondering…

    1. Yawn. You’re the 100th who’s written such nonsense. The hate & disgust is for Israel’s policies. And btw, it’s not just a “Jewish state” unless you wish to disposses 1 million citizens who aren’t Jewish.

  11. Mary –
    “Roy, do you think all those people are going to voluntarily participate in a “population transfer”? And leave the homes they’ve lived in all their lives without putting up a fight? Really, are you serious?”

    I do not expect every single one of them to voluntarily leave the homes in which they’ve lived in all their lives (just like I do not expect it to go smooth with the settlers of the WB which also lived in some places all their lives), but with the right and fair incentive and compensation, it might be easier. If they do go violent, than there will be no choice by Israel AND the PA(the other side of the agreement) to take action.
    You have to understand that in any future peace agreement land swaps WILL take place. Israel would get some, and the Palestinian state would get some.
    For example, in the Olmert proposal there were pure Israeli lands (Look it up) which would have been handed over to the Palestinians in return to something, of course.
    That’s how negotiations work.. You give some, you lose some.
    People gotta look out for the greater good.. And just like I’m willing to have a multi-kilometer highway cutting through my country from the WB to Gaza (Just an example), the other side will be making concessions too.

    PS, A civilized discussion is all I ask for.

    1. The point is, the “negotiations” are a farce, and we are sitting by while Obama hands everything to Netanyahu in order to save his own ass from being that of a one-term president.

      Never, ever has Israel wanted peace. It only wants to continue to steal Palestinian land by whatever means necessary. Only an idiot can fail to see this. During the many years of negotiations, none of which bore any fruit, Israel continued to build settlements and outposts and still does so. It keeps the Gaza Strip under siege, Hebron is a prison camp-like existence for Palestinians, and East Jerusalem is slowly being swallowed up by Jewish home construction and the demolitions of Palestinian homes. Jewish settlers are forcing Palestinian families out of their houses, and a Muslim cemetery is being destroyed for the sake of building a “museum of tolerance.” We fear for the future of Masjid al Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock.

      1. You see, that’s why we can’t have a civilized discussion.. You’re so fixed on your opinions no matter how ridiculous or baseless they are. You will never let me for example to prove you wrong on specific things, or change your opinions in result.
        I, on the other, am open for discussion (A civilized one that is), and ain’t shutting my mind for newer and better ideas, concepts, and most importantly, facts.

        You say that Israel doesn’t want peace.. This is obviously not true. Even the most stupid leaders this country had knew that peace is the ultimate goal, even if it doesn’t seems like it in the public world.
        On the same coin I can say that the Palestinians don’t want peace either, and have never wanted one.
        Further more, the ‘stealing Palestinian lands’ “argument” falls short, as proven by actions like the unilateral disengagement from Gaza, and the fact that there have been absolutely magnificent offers by Barak and Olmert during their time as PM’s.
        If you truly (truly!) believe that all Israel wants is to kill kill kill and steal steal steal, than unfortunately we’re done here.
        Just like I do not believe that all the Palestinians want is blowing buses up, and kill the yahood, I expect you to be open for different opinion, and again, most importantly, facts(!).

        I think I have made my points in my posts clear enough for people who actually care to read them.
        I can’t say it has been nice talking to you, as you seem to be unpleasant, and incapable of having a civilized and educated discussion.
        You know where to find me..

        Fair well

        1. I israel doesn’t want to kill kill kill and steal steal steal, it needs to stop doing that. And it didn’t. All we did was replace a bit of the stealing (gaza) with a lot more killing.

          Not that it matters really – if you want to know what israel wants, ask around! How many people in israel support a peace agreement? How many people in israel aren’t racists?

          If you ask around in arab areas, however, you will find very little hate for israel and no support for terrorism.

          1. What you’re saying is a complete BS. (Pardon my French)
            All you do is to generalize an entire nation of people.
            I’m Israeli and tell you this whole-heartly, people in Israel want peace at least as much as the Palestinians want it.
            As for your claim about Israelis being racist.. I will not even address that.

          2. people in Israel want peace at least as much as the Palestinians want it.

            One thing I’ll grant you–people in Israel SAY they want peace, but don’t do anything to achieve it. So the words are lame & empty as are yours.

          3. I’m also israeli, and a deeply zionist one at that.

            I think you are just blind – like many left wingers here (although i doubt you are one).

            Hate of arabs is now consesus. Seeing arabs as in any way equel is almost taboo.

            Even as i’m writing this, I’m looking over my back, lest I be suspect of “arab loving”.

            Things are bad, and are getting worse. I’m sure you saw the many posters in support of shayetet 13 after the marmara incident. I’m sure you must have noticed what “smolani” does to people when they hear it. You must have seen the talkbacks on ynet, the support for liberman. How many people here are certion that the whole world in antisemite? How many people oppose the verdict against the soldiers who used children as human shields?

            A few years ago Sharon was elected by promising peace and security. Even that support for false peace is now fading in favor of just security.

            Wake up!

          4. duck –
            “I’m sure you saw the many posters in support of shayetet 13 after the marmara incident. ”

            I support Shayetet 13 on that too, so what?
            Its not all black and white.. I’m a realist, and when I see something wrong I condemn it. When I feel something is right I support it.
            What I didn’t like about all the Israeli public hype about the incident are those Beitar fans and co that went all out with the ‘death to Arabs’ like they’re in their home football field.

            “I’m sure you must have noticed what “smolani” does to people when they hear it.”

            I have. And please to think you can place me anywhere on the political spectrum based on my posts here.. Personally, I do not believe in the whole ‘left and right’ thing.
            That’s why I get so angry when I hear people jumping with the ‘Lefty’ tag as if its some kind of a curse word or wrong.
            The Left by itself has many sides..

            Further more, I do believe things are getting worse..
            I too notice the talkbacks and the racist remarks etc etc.. But I believe that all that is just a byproduct of the incompetent and (partly, yes) racist government.
            I can’t wait for the day this government will fall.
            BUT, are we at a point of no return? Past times were better?
            I don’t know, and I will not get to a final conclusion until I do.

          5. The marmara incident is the less important part of the story. I won’t argue here about the morality of the siege or it’s oh so violent enforcment. The real problem was the hype. The fact that an entire nation, top to bottom, press included, can so fully, intensly, instinctivly and thoughtlessly support the military and it’s actions – that is a sign of how far we’ve gone into fascism.

            If you do notice what’s going on, how can you deny that racism and opposition to peace are taking over?

            There is one bright spot – there is no point of no return. Germany and japan proved that – once fascist nations are now peacful and democratic. The question is the price we’ll have to pay, and whether the state will survive it.

          6. duck –
            “The fact that an entire nation, top to bottom, press included, can so fully, intensly, instinctivly and thoughtlessly support the military and it’s actions – that is a sign of how far we’ve gone into fascism.”

            I disagree completely.
            You keep mentioning fascism but the truth is that from here to fascism there’s a long long way.
            You can divide the supporters to two(Or more) groups: Those who genuinely believe that the military was in the right in this specific case, and those who are nothing more than an empty head with no brain. (And yes, there are a lot of those)
            Fascism got nothing to do with it.
            Its like I’d say that America is fascist because a lot of Americans support the drone strikes in Pakistan, where there’s no judge and jury, and no one really knows who is down there.
            As I’ve said, it ain’t black and white, and again, fascism is not connected to one you brought up, at least.

            “If you do notice what’s going on, how can you deny that racism and opposition to peace are taking over?”

            I do not deny it. I truly believe that we’re heading to a dark future, but do you really think we’re there yet? No other government can come through?
            We’re not on that stage yet.. Are we heading there? Perhaps. But we got a long way ahead of us, still.

            And a finishing comment:
            I think the comparisons to Nazi Germany and Japan are completely out of context.

          7. An unquestioning support of the gov’t and military by the populace, as shown afer the marmara incident, is a core principle of fascism. Another core principle, the merging of civilians and soldiers, was shown by the pharse “we are all shayetet 13”. We are very very close, not a long way away.

            Nazi germany was an example of how even from the darkest end game point, there is still a way back.

          8. duck –
            “An unquestioning support of the gov’t and military by the populace, as shown afer the marmara incident, is a core principle of fascism.”

            That’s your view of things.. I have seen criticism.
            And the support is hardly for the government and even some higher ups in the military, as they are perceived as the ones who have sent the soldiers unprepared to the mission. The support is for the soldiers, the boots on the ground.

            “Another core principle, the merging of civilians and soldiers, was shown by the pharse “we are all shayetet 13″. We are very very close, not a long way away.”

            That’s just a typical over-analyzing..
            That slogan basically means that the people support the soldiers, those who are sent to protect them.

            It seems ridiculous to me that you connect those things to fascism.. I don’t know what you’ve been taught, but that’s not a symptom of fascism.
            People in the US are very patriotic and supportive of their troops, too. Same as every place else.

          9. People in the US are very patriotic and supportive of their troops, too. Same as every place else.

            Can you show me any Amerian slogan after the Abu Graibh photos surfaced that said: “We support our troops in Abu Graibh?” Additionally, U.S. human rights groups are petitioning the Supreme Court to prevent a U.S. citizen fr. being assassinated by his own gov’t. A U.S. soldier just released documents via Wikileaks proving our troops killed Iraqi civilians. I don’t see many American’s shouting slogans supporting war crimes as many Israelis do.

          10. Richard –
            “Can you show me any Amerian slogan after the Abu Graibh photos surfaced that said: “We support our troops in Abu Graibh?””

            Oy Vey.
            As worse as you see the Marmara incident, you can’t possibly put the Abu Ghraib fiasco on the same level.. Come on.
            What I do see though is an overwhelming support for the American armed forces, even when American drones are bombing villages and weddings in supposedly sovereign Pakistan.

          11. Richard –
            “One thing I’ll grant you–people in Israel SAY they want peace, but don’t do anything to achieve it. So the words are lame & empty as are yours.”

            There are two sides in this, and both have had their fair share of failing to achieve peace.
            Don’t be one sided, Richard, please.

        2. I, on the other, am open for discussion

          About as open as a sealed Israeli border checkpoint.

          You say that Israel doesn’t want peace.. This is obviously not true.

          Obvious? To whom?

          there have been absolutely magnificent offers by Barak and Olmert

          Yes, magnificent all right. So magnificent that no Palestinian leader ever seriously contemplated accepting one. This reminds me of the famous story of the American socialist leader, Victor Thomas, many of whose proposals ended up being incorporated into FDR’s New Deal. A reporter said to Thomas: “Aren’t you delighted that Pres. Roosevelt is carrying out so many of your plans?” Thomas replied: “Carrying out? Yes, he’s carrying them out…on a stretcher.”

          In other words, what’s “magnificent” to you and other Israelis isn’t necessarily so to Palestinians, & for good reason.

          Fair well

          Can we lay a bet on how quickly Roy will return w. a new comment?

          1. Richard –
            “About as open as a sealed Israeli border checkpoint.”

            Nice to see you’re keeping the class up, Richard.

            “Yes, magnificent all right. So magnificent that no Palestinian leader ever seriously contemplated accepting one. ”

            Big surprise.
            Any foreign official who took part in any one of the major peace processes over the years would tell you that those offers were very very ideal for the Palestinian people, and that they were beyond fair.
            Meanwhile, people like Suha Arafat are sitting on mountains of money in Paris that should have gone to the well being of the Palestinian people.

          2. Any foreign official who took part in any one of the major peace processes over the years would tell you that those offers were very very ideal for the Palestinian people, and that they were beyond fair.

            Actually, books have been written by Aaron David Miller and Clayton Swisher, who were at these negotiations (not sure about Swisher, but sure about Miller) which say precisely the opposite–that the proposals were inadequate & that the U.S. should’ve known they would be unacceptable to Arafat & the Palestinians. The entire notion of “eminently fair” & “ideal” is YOUR and Barak’s narrative, not a realistic or balanced narrative.

            Suha Arafat is OFF TOPIC. Stay on topic or again your comments will be moderated.

        3. ” do not expect every single one of them to voluntarily leave the homes in which they’ve lived in all their lives (just like I do not expect it to go smooth with the settlers of the WB which also lived in some places all their lives), but with the right and fair incentive and compensation, it might be easier. If they do go violent, than there will be no choice by Israel AND the PA(the other side of the agreement) to take action.”

          You obviously think you are fairminded, but this is obscene. The West Bank settlers are there illegally–even if they’ve lived there their whole lives they have no right to be there. The Palestinians who might be expelled from Israel with your approval did nothing wrong, but as many Palestinians have before, evidently they are to be uprooted.

          As for that “magnificent offer by Barak”, Shlomo Ben Ami said that if he were Palestinian he would have turned down that magnificent offer at Camp David. And Ben Ami (a member of Barak’s government) is a pretty fierce critic of Arafat.

          And your notion of “civilized” conversation is that one should be able to advocate for massive human rights violations without anyone getting too excited about it.

    2. I do not expect every single one of them to voluntarily leave the homes in which they’ve lived in all their lives (just like I do not expect it to go smooth with the settlers of the WB which also lived in some places all their lives), but with the right and fair incentive and compensation, it might be easier.

      You are utterly deluded. First, Israel doesn’t have enough money to pay what would be necessary to get its citizens to leave & no one will be subsidizing such a grotesque perversion of human rights on Israel’s behalf. In fact, if Israel did offer such compensation, Arab nations (& I would participate) and human rights groups througout the world would create a competing fund subsidizing them in order to remain in Israel.

      You’re not being civilized. You’re being monstrous & supporting monstrous policies. So you won’t get a civilized response nor do you deserve one.

    3. Roy, expelling a native population from their homes as part of a “population transfer”, even as part of an agreed-upon peace settlement is AGAINST international law, end of story. Oh, it’s also immoral and inhumane to boot.
      This does NOT apply to the Jewish settlers in the occupied territories, whose residence in the territories is, in and of itself, against international law. You have to understand the distinction, both legal and moral, between Jewish settlers and Palestinian natives.

      As far as Hamas is concerned, I don’t see Hamas as a possible partner in the foreseeable future. I also don’t see it as a legitimate rules, in spite of the fact that they were democratically elected, if only because of their gross human rights violations (against their own people, mostly women, gays, etc.) and their anti-semitic (and anti-Christian) charter (some of the one-sided anti-Zionists people here would do well to read it).
      The thing is that Israel and the US (thank you, American military industrial complex) are doing everything within their powers to weaken the PA and strengthen Hamas, when their goal should be to isolate Hamas and help Abbas and the secular, democratic forces in Palestine. If a miracle happens and they realize that, I believe Hamas could be reduced to an inconsequental fragment of the Palestinian political system, where it obviously belongs. If that doesn’t happen, we have a problem.

      1. Eran –
        “You have to understand the distinction, both legal and moral, between Jewish settlers and Palestinian natives. ”

        I understand the distinction, but there are exceptions.. (First and foremost I would just say that I do NOT support the settler enterprise)
        What about the historical Jewish presence in Hebron?
        There are specific cases in which Jews are natives just as their Palestinian neighbors.
        Hopefully Richard won’t disregard it as OT.

        1. What about the historical Jewish presence in Hebron?

          Omigod, are you justifying the current settler Occupation of the old Jewish quarter & entire Casbah of Hebron because there were once Jews living there? Are you really? Because if we go there then what’s to stop settlers fr. going back to the Bible & proving there were original Bibilical Jewish settlers all over the ancient kingdoms of Judea & Israel?

          The current Jewish colonists in Hebron are NOT natives. They are thieves & occupiers.

          1. No, I’m not talking about the bible era.. Do your homework, Richard.
            Perhaps you should read a bit about the 1929 Hebron massacre.

          2. You don’t need to give me lessons. Are you claiming that the current Hebron interlopers are all direct descendants of those killed in 1929?

            What I do see though is an overwhelming support for the American armed forces

            No, you don’t understand. Americans overwhelmingly support an end to the Iraq AND Afghanistan occupations. They want our troops home. They oppose continuing these wars. However, they support our troops as long as they don’t commit war crimes like Abu Graibh. Americans don’t support war crimes nor do they support soldiers who commit them. Israelis on the other hand largely can’t be bothered to care whether one of their own has done this. They support the troops, they support the Occupation because they see no alternative. Because they support the Occupation the Avi Yakobov’s are a mere blip on the national radar.

            Don’t be one sided, Richard, please.

            The fault for the failure to achieve peace is far more on the Israeli side. Yes, there have been Palestinian failures. But the fault rests far more on Israel’s side.

  12. In the classical sense of of thw word, from British colonialism in Africa, the walled-in Palestinian villages and towns already are concentration camps.

  13. @ Mary, by using name calling you are disrespecting yourself and the hospitality of the host. obviously you are incapable of a civilized exchange of ideas.
    i think that the first step towards a solution is changing the hostility that exist around the two parties, specially around the points we disagree. you are full with hate. looking at it from the the side it’s shameful.

    as for the issues between Hamas and PLO, i think that Israel should suspend the talks until the Palestinian inner conflict will be resolved. the Palestinian’s should decide who is going to be their one voice, personally i rather deal with Hamas and not PLO due to the fact that the Hamas will use any means necessary to enforce its policies and decisions over the Palestinians (including throwing people off rooftops).

    1. Repeating hasbara is not productive either, Arijay. The “Hamas throwing people off rooftops” propaganda has outlived its usefulness. It’s time to find something a little better to terrify the masses with, don’t you think?
      It’s hardly the way to end hostilities between any groups but only adds fuel to the fire.

      For heaven’s sake, I’m much better at namecalling than you give me credit for. People who spout fascistic rhetoric tend to be fascists. Now, either continue in trying to shame me, or get on with another topic.

      1. Hamas is a very brutal sadistic group. Calling their crimes against their own people “propaganda” is an insult to their victims.

        I bet the shin-bet can’t wait for the day when it can do to jewish dissenters what hamas does to their dissenters.

        Of course, egypt is hardly any better, and if we can make peace with it, we can make peace with the elected gov’t of the palestinian people.

    2. You’re being overly snarky & disingenuous. I personally don’t believe a word of anything you’re saying about what yr real views are. I find it offensive for you to say you prefer to negotiate w. Hamas because they’re willing to throw people off buildings. If that’s the level to which yr comments will sink you’ll not participate long here.

      And stop analyzing Mary’s personality traits or trying to drive a wedge bet. me and her. When Mary’s comments disturb me she will know about it & not before.

  14. @ Mary,
    dear you are doing such a great job humiliating yourself, i dare not interfere.
    look at your posts, they are full with name calling, and propaganda BS. no substance what so ever.

  15. Dear Richard:

    Thanks for posting this! It’s obviously never going to happen as part of any possible “peace agreement.” But pretending that it MIGHT provides a sickening “kosher” pretext for IDF pre-planning for the Israeli far-right’s budding One State solution. (Shall it never come to pass!)

    BTW: I was going to repost this to FB and send it to my large progressive Jewish/Arab email list. But when you post on your blog, you tend to write in a shorthand manner for us “insiders” that I’m afraid would not be readily understood by a far less specialized audience. Take the following quote as an example:

    “First, clearly this is yet another goodie offered by Bibi to Yvette to get him on board the freeze extension train that the former hopes will leave the station soon.”

    So, if you’d like your posts to be more widely distributed, PLEASE write them using people’s full names and official governmental titles.

    We all know who Bibi and Yvette are. But the vast majority of your potential audience have no idea!

    Keep up your wonderful work.

    Your old friend,

    Joel Gayman

    1. Thanks for writing, Joel. All I can say in my defense is that I’ve written 3,000 posts & I can’t use the same long-hand in every one to refer to every official. In a blog, you develop a shorthand & your readers follow along. If you notify those in yr e mail list & they find what I write compelling they’ll eventually be able to follow along. And they are free to ask questions in the threads as many do when they don’t understand a phrase.

  16. @ Dear Mary, not only you had proven yourself to be a rude person, you also proven yourself not being that bright.
    if out of my posts in this blog you can conclude that i support likud, obviously you are not that bright. most of my posts here have to do with your disgusting arrogant comment style.
    so what do we have here ? a rude not bright individual.
    now if you’ll chose to have a respectful exchange of ideas, please let me know, you are really not much of a challenge when it comes to exchange of words.

    1. For someone wanting to have an intelligent discussion on the topic, you’re certainly proving to be quite overly focused on me. Nice tactic, but I’m not so easily put down.

      Why don’t you refute the things I said?

  17. Mary, I wouldn’t waste time with Roy or Avi. Roy’s opening gambit was the false equivalence of Palestinians in Israel therefore Israelis should be allowed to live on the west bank etc. This ignores that the Palestinians in Israel are the natives who have been deprived of their land. The Israeli colonists in the west bank are thieves at a minimum, and much more than that. it amazes me that this argument is common, when it is laughable on it’s face. Avi is being disingenuous when he suggests talking to no Palestinian until the factions reconcile. The civil war between Hamas and Fatah is the culmination of Israeli policy since they first supported Hamas in it’s early days. They wanted to undercut the secular PLO. Note the final flourish of both hasbara peddlers. Roy suggests both peoples should be allowed in both Israel and Palestine, sounds so reasonable out of context, while Avi prefers to talk to Hamas, but is prepared to talk to neither. Quite the neutral.

    1. So true, Paul. I’ve had enough “discussions” with hasbarists to know when I’m being played with. The neurotic focus on my “rudeness” versus addressing what I actually said is quite typical. Neither of them has said anything worth responding to, as you point out.

      1. # Dear Mary)
        I do agree with Paul. Those guys get you exactly where they want to get you: away from the discussion on the Israeli military exercise and the plan for ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. You know, and maybe they know – when they are not sniffing too much Ziocaïne – that you have justice on your side, and that you’ll convince the outsider in a rational discussion based on historical facts.
        And Roy with his “Her Highness, Mary of Lalaland” on his first day around here, is not worth a high blood pressure.

  18. Richard-
    Lieberman’s plan does NOT call for “population transfer”. It calls for adjusting the border so that some Israeli Arab towns and villages will be put under Palestinian control. Why do you falsely claim that it means expulsion of the population? Make any clam to “rally the troops”?

    1. It most certainly DOES call for population transfer. It calls for transferring most of the Israeli Palestinian population out of Israel & into the new Palestinian state. This is just a brushed up version of the classic Kahanist transferist policy. Leiberman’s policy involves the forced expulsion of Israeli Palestinians from Israel and their loss of Israeli citizenship. You can try to prettify this any way you want but it just ain’t pretty.

    2. Well Lieberman has suggested in front of your parliament and as a minister drowning Arab prisoners in the Dead Sea. He has also recommended bombing the Aswan damn and more or less directly the destroying Gaza using nuclear weapons.

      Do you seriously believe that this kind of man would prefer peaceful population transfers and fair adjusting of borders. Let’s remember that 20 percent of Israelis are Arabs so 20 percent of pre 67 Israel would have to be swapped to nothing, remembering that most of the settlers moved there during the last 10 – 15 years taking an “own” risk.

      Let us remember that Hitler did not exactly “articulate” the hands-on solution to the “Jew problem”. Neither does Lieberman to the “Arab problem”. Every rational person understands that there is no easy solution to this kind of ethnic cleansing. Does somebody in earnest believe that the transfer of millions or hundreds of thousands to obviously very poor living conditions will be easy and can be performed with out significant amount of lost lives and unseen violence. Transferring hundreds of thousands Jews from the West Bank will create a civil war among Jews. Neither the Israeli Arabs will not leave their properties and livelihoods without a fight.

      1. In fact, Lieberman isn’t really proposing a population transfer, but rather a land swap.

        In his speech to the UN Assembly on March 28, he said among lot of other s…:

        “Let me be clear. I’m not speaking of moving populations, but rather about moving borders to better reflect demographic realities”. (p. 10)

        http://gadebate.un.org/Portals/1/statements/634212616881718750IL_en.pdf

        For 43 years now, all Israeli governments have encouraged, subsidized and protected ‘illegal squatters’ in strategic important areas on Palestinian land, and now the Israeli Minister of Foreign affairs is proposing to incorporate these areas into the State of Israel towards giving parts of the Galilée with a majority of legal Palestinian Isreali citizens to a new Palestinian state.

        If this isn’t ethnic cleansing, then I eat my hat !

        1. Why is moving borders to reflect demographies so bad?

          Isn’t setting boders according to demographies the whole point behind all peace plans?

          For that matter, why is outright population transfers so bad?

          Obviously, a population transfer in israel today would involve terrible violence. But what if it didn’t?

          The key issue here is ofcourse the opinion of israel’s arabs. But is it so unlikly they would support one of these ideas, when offered by a gov’t that isn’t racist (like the current and almost all past ones)?

          Also, while we can ask nothing of arabs who choose not to be transferred – they would owe us nothing for the right to remain in their land – we CAN ask something of arabs who choose not to have the border drawn on the other side of their homes. If arabs who live adjecant to the border choose to remain in israel rather then join a sovereign palestinian state, they owe loyalty to the sovereign jewish state. With a peace agreement, for the first time, israel would have earned a legitimacy to be called a jewish state, and it would deserve to be recognized as such by any ethnic minorities that CHOSE to live in it.

          I realize this is moot – liberman will never give up an inch of land. He only thought this up to gain legitimacy by offering a seemingly reasonible solution that is hard to counter, while still maintaining his racists outlook that voters love.
          If there IS any thing wrong with this idea, other than it’s practical application in our sorry circumstances, I’d love to know about it. Otherwise, it seems like a vital part of any future two-state peace, lead by a leftist gov’t.

          And btw, the question of the stratigic position of any settelment is entirely unrelated.

          1. # Duch]
            I encourage you to do some study on your own: you should study the Plan of Partition (the 181), the resolution 194 (on the right of return), the Israeli admission to the UN, the promises made by Ben Gourion (I prefer talking of Hasbara though) and the demands from the socalled “international community” in order to validate the creation of the State of Israel on other peoples’ land.

            Then you’ll realize that you’ve had much more than you deserve – and as far as I’m concerned you didn’t deserve one ince of historical Palestine for an independent state in the first place. You ended up with 78% of historical Palestine and now you also want to redesign the borders as you like.

            I sometimes really believe that you guys have lost every sens of human decency, you just think that those ‘savages’ can be moved around in order to please you. And yes, I do mean ‘savages’, because that’s the way most Israelis consider the Palestinians: as inferior human beings.

            If there is ever going to be a Two State-solution, it’s going to follow the ’67-borders, basta.

            You say the position of the settlements is irrelevant. Of course, it’s not. Do you think the settlements have been established by random ?? The “pro-land swappers” are demanding that settlements east of Jerusalem be incorporated into the State of Israel, thus preventing a continuity between the West Bank and Jerusalem.

            Anyhow, you know your country better than I do, you know the Israelis are never going to accept anything else than a few Bantoustans controlled by Israel.

            Fortunately, more and more Palestinians realize that too, and people like Omar Barghouti and others want to change the struggle towards the South African one: equal rights within one state: one man, one vote.

            And what are you going to do about that ?? In a near future, you’ll have to explain to the world, that you are in fact an Apartheid state who doesn’t want to grant equal rights to the people that you are occupying and that you don’t want to set free either. You’ll have to prepare some advanced Hasbara courses in Tel Aviv to sell that in the long run.

          2. You did not explain why redrawing the lines is wrong, or why the arab side should object to it.
            You point out that israel did not keep its obligations to the world. Well duh. It also commited crimes against humanity. Has nothing to do with the matter at hand, other than the fact that we can never expect any arab faith in any sincerity we might one day grow.
            I myself said israelis see arabs as inferior in a previous thread. Again, not the point. Just like the problematic position of the settelments isn’t the point. I still see no reason to stick to the 67′ lines to the letter.

            As for your other points:
            There is no such thing as historical palestine. Never was. Hopefully there will be one soon.
            The jewish people deserve a state, just like any other nation.
            Israel has been an apartheid state since day one. No problems so far.

          3. “For that matter, why is outright population transfers so bad?”

            I’m practically speechless. A second nakba…..

            That’s why it’s so bad.

          4. This is a breathtakingly dense & naive comment that shows utter insensitivity & ignorance of what Palestinians really feel.

            First population transfer is a violation of international law, something embraced by Meir Kahane & now Lieberman, & something experienced during horrendous periods in world history like the India-Pakistan forced expulsions of 1948 in which thousands, if not more died. Is that what you want for Israel? Endless bloodletting followed by international ostracism & condemnation the likes of which you haven’t seen even now?

            If the “key issue” is the opinion of Israel’s Palestinians, then why do you spout such rubbish, since these very same Palestinians think these ideas are repulsive.

            And how & when will an Israeli gov’t arise which would advance these noxious ideas that wasn’t racist or repulsive like the current gov’t? Is Labor somehow miraculously going to win an election before it dies such a timely death?

            With a peace agreement, for the first time, israel would have earned a legitimacy to be called a jewish state, and it would deserve to be recognized as such by any ethnic minorities that CHOSE to live in it.

            Utter nonsense. Israel will not be solely a “Jewish state” unless it wishes to rid itself of its democracy. It will never have full legitimacy as solely a Jewish state. And no Palestinian entity will sign a peace treaty w. Israel that recognizes it as such. So get this dumb idea out of yr head. It may be yr dream but it isn’t anyone else’s outside Israel.

            any future two-state peace, lead by a leftist gov’t.

            Did I read you right? You did say a “future leftist” Israeli gov’t, didn’t you? Those are some powerful drugs you’re taking. Care to tell us the name? “Leftist?” When? And how? Dream on, baby.

          5. I was trying to disscuss whether population transfers are innately unethical under any circumstances. Guess I shouldn’t have.

            Annexing arab areas in israel into a palestinian state is a much more realistic question. I’m asking why wouldn’t arabs living in this areas agree to this idea? If they refuse the change of citizenship because of economic or civil rights reasons, then they should be treated the same way immigrants should be treated (which is to say much better than they are treated now).
            If they refuse because their identity is that israeli arabs rather than palestinians, than they can hardly demand that israel forfeit it’s jewish identity.

            I didn’t mean solely jewish state. I meant a state with a jewish identity, rather than a cosmopolitan one. If israel ever decides to go with a one state solution with equel rights to arabs, than it could no longer keep it’s jewish identity. A two state solution should allow Israel to be a state with jewish identity.

            As for future leftist gov’t, I don’t think that is a likely scenario. I think the likely scenario is mass murder of arabs followed by the total collapse of israel, mass murder and exile of jews and the demise of zionism.

            However if we don’t have hope for a better future than that, we may as well quit.

          6. why wouldn’t arabs living in this areas agree to this idea? If they refuse the change of citizenship because of economic or civil rights reasons, then they should be treated the same way immigrants should be treated

            Because they are citizens of the country who wish to remain so. It’s simple as that. Israel has no right to send them packing for ideological/political reasons & would severely violate international law if it did so & lv it open to very serious & damaging repurcussions if it did.

            You can’t treat a citizen whose ancestors lived in the country before most current Israeli Jews as immigrants. It’s ridiculous. They don’t need to be treated as immigrants & given anything other than what is their right & due as citizens (which are not receiving compared to Jewish citizens).

            I have no problem with Israel having a Jewish identity as long as it affirms that it has a Palestinian one as well. And this means that it is a multi cultural state & hence I guess cosmopolitan under yr strange definition.

            I too hope for an Israeli progressive gov’t. But it ain’t in the cards I’m afraid.

          7. I understand why they would refuse transfers. What I don’t understand is why they would object to redrawing the lines according to demography.

            They should be treated as immigrants if they choose to live in israel for the same reason other immigrants do so – because it’s better (mostly economically) than living in their own countries.
            If the reason is because of thier identity they should be treated as equel citizens, but israel should get to keep it’s jewish identity.

            Israel cannot keep it’s jewish identity along with an arab one. It can’t keep it’s flag or it’s anthem (personally I would change both to something with a secular jewish identity), the name of it’s parliment, nothing.

          8. I understand why they would refuse transfers. What I don’t understand is why they would object to redrawing the lines according to demography.

            Are you dense? If they accept redrawing the borders then they are expelled as Israeli citizens. YOu don’t understand why they would object to this after I’ve tried explaining it to you not once but several times?

            They should be treated as immigrants if they choose to live in israel for the same reason other immigrants do so – because it’s better (mostly economically) than living in their own countries.

            Now, I’m truly losing patience & you are very close to moderation. They ARE NOT IMMIGRANTS. They have not come to Israel “from their own country.” Israel is their country. They have no other country.

            Israel doesn’t get to declare itself solely a Jewish state because it isn’t…because there are non-Jews, Palestinians who predate the existence of the state. YOu can’t simply wish them away. They won’t go away.

            Certainly Israel can have a dual identity. Many nations do and some have traveled the path quite successfully.

            You’re done with this thread & subject. You’ve had many chances to make your view known & it makes no more sense than when you began. Find another thread, another subject. No more comments in this thread.

  19. An old saying in Hebrew says: The words of wise are heard in calm, refuting your claims is easy to do, but you are not willing to listen, you are nothing but calm when it comes to Israel, you are worried about el-Aqsa (which translates to the mosque who is located at the further away) and are not willing to reason, you do not accept UN resolution 181. Under such what kind of discussion can possibly happen here?

        1. # Eran) It’s getting late where I live so a short answer. If you believe the Hasbara, because “5 or was it 7 Arab armies attacked Israel”.
          Avi Shlaïm among others have debunked this myth long ago.
          If you have read some of Ben Gourion’s books and letters, you know as well as I that the Zionist movement ‘accepted’ the Resolution 181 to get a legal foot on Palestinian soil, but that their option was having it all. And the actions of the Haganah, Stern, Lehi etc long before May 1948 confirms that.
          And contrary to the myth, no Arab armies ever crossed the border of what was supposed to be the future State of Israel, except in Jerusalem.
          And lastly, the Arab countries proposed a federal solution at the last UN vote in Nov 1947. Tom Segev has written an article on that: “How we missed the Swiss option” or something like that in HaAretz.

          So shortly, because the Zionists wanted more and the Arabs were too weak and divided to resist.. I’m not saying that the Arabs accepted the resolution – why should they ? 55% of their land was given to people coming from abroad.

  20. What a waste of time arguing about all the above. Just wait until the Knesset passes the loyalty oath law today. Then we’ll see if there is a transfer of Arabs out of Israel. Nothing like a theocracy to get rid of its great unwashed.

  21. Leaving aside the obvious fact that forced population transfer is wrong for a moment, it would seem to me that forcing people to move over apparently short distances would create only a festering sense of injustice, and not any sort of “solution”, final or otherwise, because they would still be within a few hours drive, border fences permitting, of their original homes.

    I would suspect that the real hope of the Israeli right, is that the Palestinians will move a LOT further than that. Since the Arab states are basically unwilling to accept very many of them, then that leaves me with the suspicion that Israel intends to put people in camps and leave them there, perhaps for years, until Western governments agree to take them all as refugees.

    Now THAT was one of Himmler’s bright ideas, too.

  22. “There is no such thing as historical palestine. Never was. Hopefully there will be one soon.
    The jewish people deserve a state, just like any other nation.
    Israel has been an apartheid state since day one. No problems so far.”

    Subhanallah….same hasbara, different day. Same old arguments being made.

    “No problems” with Israel being an “apartheid state”? Well, I guess that’s true if you’re a Jew.

    1. Was there ever a palestine? While I know this is a common argument among rightists, I was not using it as such. I was merely pointing out a fact, because the claim that there was a palestine irritated me (since that claim is also a common argument, but among anti-zionists).

      That the jewish ppl deserve a state may be an old argument, but it’s a damn good one.

      I obviously did not mean that there was no moral problem with apartheid. I already illustrated the moral problem to cops in sheikh jarrah. Have you?

      What I meant was that Israel had no problems maintaining aparthied – deir yassin warned that it one day would, and I gave a more pessimistic outlook.

      1. Yes there was a historical Palestine. But even if there weren’t, there were 750,000 people either killed or displaced so that there might be an “Israel.” That is reprehensible.

        Don’t the Palestinians deserve a state, too? In fact, they had one. They lived in Palestine for 2,000 years. That’s another old argument not worth rehashing.

        I don’t understand your question about cops in Sheikh Jarrah.

        1. When did palestinians have a state?? They didn’t live here for 2000 years. I don’t think even provincia palestina is that old.

          Ofc palestinians deserve a state. I already said so.

          If your’e claiming that nakba was necessary for the creation of israel, then I admit that is an unsetteling idea. I’d like to think it wasn’t necessary, and was just a result of murderus greediness among some (most) of this country’s founding fathers. I’d say the nakba was israel’s original sin, but that honor falls to jewish religion itself, one of the most racist belief systems in history.

      2. 3 Duck)
        About historical Palestine, it’s a geographical nomination. The Palestinian people is part of the Arab nation, and if you have problems with the name ‘Palestine’ (though I don’t think so, I do understand that you are raising questions to debate) we could talk about Greater Syria. Would that be better ? The Palestinians demanding their integration into Greater Syria and a return to the ME pre-Sykes-Picot. Would that suit you better ? As says Azmi Bishara: “We are Arabs, Palestinian Arabs. Arabs from Palestine”

        Europe, not the Arabs, invented the concept of Nation-State and imposed it onto the whole world. Would claiming to be part of the Islamic Umma be preferable ??
        Of course, Zionism has been the main motor in shaping a specific Palestinian identity. To paraphrase a Mexican anthropologist Batalla: “The concept of Palestinians is a concept shaped by Zionism”.

        1. I have no problem with either palestinian nationality or palestinian right to a state.

          The thing is, while a lack of a historical STATE of palestine does not preclude the existence of a future one, the existence of a historical state of palestine casts a big shadow over the morality of the existence of a jewish state.
          This is what so irked me.

          A historical LAND of palestine is irrelevant in this context.

          Taking empty parts of a land called palestine to make a jewish homeland is not immoral. Taking populated parts of that land for that purpose is ofc terrible, but does not make the whole idea wrong.

          Taking even empty land of one state to create another state is far more problematic morally. Fortunately, that was not the case.

  23. Richard, et. al.:

    I’d like to SUGGEST that everyone here view the terrific recent two hour PBS documentary called “The Bible’s Buried Secrets” ( http://video.pbs.org/video/1051895565/for ) for all of us to gain a fresh perspective on the “Jews as European Colonizers” thesis, and, perhaps, put much of our ongoing discussion in a new and more accurate historical light.

    The documentary is a scholarly scientific, archeological and historical examination of who wrote the Torah, which parts of it are historically accurate; who the original Israelites really were; and WHERE they actually came from.

    Among many other provocative insights, it claims the Israelites were never slaves in Egypt, but that the majority were indigenous revolutionary Canaanites who adopted the then radical theology of one abstract universal God to express their novel EGALITARIAN economic and political beliefs in (of course) religious terms.

    I haven’t yet examined any scholarly critiques of the claims made in this film. (Perhaps, some people here have already done this.) But, if the central thesis of Jewish origins is historically valid, we have a whole new vision of Jewish theological “orthodoxy.” And, perhaps, a far more promising historical narrative on which to build an Israeli-Palestinian accord.

    If we Jews are really “Arabs,” then why can’t all us Arabs get along?

    Do check out the documentary. I’m really interested in hearing everyone’s scholarly and political reactions.

    Shalom and courage,

    Joel Gayman

    1. Even racists don’t have a problem being racist while admitting that we are culturally and genetically similar to arabs. I’v been hearing terms like “our dear cousins (who should all die)” more and more recently.

  24. There are really plenty of comments, and I have not read them all, so should I be repeating anything that was already touched upon please excuse me.

    The relevant paragraph does not say “transfer”, but “population swap”. I do not think that the idea Reshet Bet wanted to convey is the expulsion of Arabs while retaining the land, but rather the handing over of large sections of Israeli territory to Palestinian administration despite the presence of an Israeli arab population there in exchange for equally large Palestinian stretches of land with major settlements.

    That would of course be equally unacceptable as simply expelling the Israeli arabs by the government, because they are Israeli citizens (who want to stay such, by the way).

    1. You’re wrong, Mario. There has been plenty written in the news media describing just what this means and the ramifications of it. It has nothing to do with land and more with the continued ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Israel

      And I beg to differ – to my understanding anyway, most Israeli Arabs would be happy to be Palestinians, because that is who they actually are.

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