53 thoughts on “Dungeons of Shabak–Version 2.0 (or 3.0?) – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. Richard;
    please read this
    http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/a-special-place-in-hell-confessions-of-an-israeli-anti-settler-bigot-1.316325
    Israel is fast running the same apartheid policies of long gone White South Africa – There is no semblance of democracy left –
    Think of living in a country that is morning/day/night bathed in extremism a la Beck –
    Between the settlers, ultra religious and the extremists there is just no air left to breathe –

  2. Richard, I know this is far from the point of this blog entry, but as a singer who has studied, practiced, and performed Arabic music for many years, I absolutely MUST take strong exception to your characterization of the `oud as a “folk instrument”. If you are going to refer to the `oud as an “Arabic folk instrument”, then you had better also refer to the violin as a “European folk instrument”. As with the violin, by referring to the `oud in as a “folk instrument” you are ignoring the many, many centuries of highly sophisticated classical Arabic, Turkish, and Persian music, in which the `oud has played and continues to play an essential role. You are also ignoring the fact that the `oud is also central in Turkish and Persian music and has been for centuries. It also is undoubtedly the ancestor of the European lute, which has to my knowledge never been considered a “folk instrument”.

    1. I didn’t mean to disparage the instrument as I admire it greatly & have heard many wonderful concerts featuring it. I merely meant to say that it is an instrument that is an important part of Arab culture & traditions. Perhaps “folk” was the wrong word to use & too confining or limiting.

      I meant to convey that the Shabak was criminalizing the practice of an instrument that is such an important legacy in Arab culture.

      1. I know. It’s just that, although I know you are an exception, most Americans assume that Arabic music must all be folk music since Arabs are primitive, backward people who do not have the ability to produce anything more sophisticated than that – unless, of course, they are schooled by westerners in western music. The underlying assumption often is that western musicians are the only ones who have achieved any degree of sophistication. Western musicians, especially classical musicians know very little about musical traditions outside their own, and make assumptions that to the degree that they are different, they are primitive, and inferior to western music. If they only knew!

        This reminds me of a story told by the renowned Palestinian `oud and violin virtuoso, Simon Shahin. Some years ago he met with one of the famous violin masters at Juliard, and played for him a very challenging sonata – don’t remember which one. The master was extremely impressed and complimented him on his technique, musicality, interpretation, etc., and then asked him if he would play something from the Arabic tradition, which he did, and chose a piece that uses scales containing quarter tones. When he finished, the master said to him “That was lovely and extremely interesting, but I have to ask you something. When you played the sonata your intonation was absolutely perfect, so I do not understand why you played so many notes out of tune in this piece.”

        1. The underlying assumption often is that western musicians are the only ones who have achieved any degree of sophistication.

          What the hell!? What kind of sane person would think that? Perhaps someone who has never listened to music.

        2. beautiful story. people see and hear only what their mind’s frame of reference allows them to … that is only if they don’t pay attention and realize that there are other “frames of reference” out there in other societies. it is all a question of the mind’s “frame of reference”. … as an aside, this has been and still is the big problem that intelligence analysts encounter when they do middle east analysis … but that’s another story …

        3. Shai, most western classical musicians, including most very sophisticated ones, have little or no clue about non-western tonalities. In fact, many western musicians’ ears are attuned only to the tempered scale which came about several hundred years ago as a result of the keyboard. They are often trained to understand the physics of western scales to the point that they do not realize there are perfectly legitimate intervals other than the whole step and half step they are trained to hear (never mind that on a non-tempered instrument even those intervals can vary a few vibrations depending on whether one is moving to or from a leading tone, and other factors). They relate to eastern scales within the context of what they know, and to them a perfectly executed passage in rast, or bayyati, or siga, or any other classical Arabic scale containing quarter tones sounds like a western scale with some notes terribly out of tune.

          1. Apropos of Shirin’s superb music lesson; anyone who had followed Yehudi Menuhin’s late career, traveling the world interpreting foreign musical genres – India, China, Arabic, etc. – would be well aware of, and understand, just what she is talking about. Thanks, Shirin.

            Zaman’s point is also well taken. There must be an intermingling if we are to understand each other’s cultures. If only the Israeli’s would understand that, at a political level.

          2. The same is true even for various Western folk musics – not that they use Arabic scales, of course, but non-tempered ones. Wind instruments are tuned to these scales, and when a classically-trained fiddler, e.g., plays along in tempered scales then it’s the latter who’s out of tune. These days however compromises are the norm rather than the exception because of the ubiquitous accompaniment by tempered-tuned instruments like guitar, bouzouki, or piano.

          3. Well fiddler, in Arab music if one does not play the correct quarter tones in a piece using a scale that includes them, it is not merely out of tune, it is completely wrong. It is tantamount to someone playing a major scale when the piece is written in the major. They are simply playing the wrong piece.

            Some tempered instruments, such as the accordion, and the electronic keyboard, are adapted to include quarter tones. Others cannot be altered to play quarter tones.

        4. # Shirin)
          I guess you live in the States, and with all my respect for the “United-Statesians” (oh, my, I have to be very careful how I say this) but I have the impression that ‘some’ of them have a very limited knowledge of what’s going on elsewhere in the world. The knowledge of Arabic music and its contribution to Western music is certainly much more widespread in Europe. My brother lives in Granada (Spain), and every Andalucian musician with any self respect studies if not the Arabic language then at least the history of Arabic music.
          In France, everybody acknowledges the Arabic origin of the ‘Troubadours’ from Southers France.
          The States is not reflecting the state of the world. And to show the difference, here’s again the Trio Joubran in the European Parliament in Bruxelles, waiting for the invitation to the Capitole:-D
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OegFKCgRdU

      1. Thanks, that’s very nice, though they ever venture out of maqam, Kurd (one that I like a lot). This maqam has no quarter tones, and should appeal to the western ear even though there is no corresponding modern western scale.

  3. Richard, Just a question,
    you stated that Ynet stated the suspects received funds for services provided 10 years ago.
    however in the ynet article you linked to it was noted that “עוד עלה בחקירה, כי במספר הזדמנויות, קיבלו השניים כ-200 אלף דולר, כתשלום עבור פעילותם והן עבור תקופות ריצוי מאסרם. ”

    the investigation reveled that in numerous occasions the two received about $200,000 for both their services and for the time they spent in Jail.

    where did you read that they are being sued for events that took place 10 years ago ?

    just FYI, the reporter quotes from the confessions of both suspects as were presented to the court. the exact quote is: “הם מסרו בחקירתם,” they stated in their investigation.

    1. You’re reading the wrong article. Read the Maariv:

      הועבר לשניים סכום של כ-120 אלף דולר בתמורה לפעילותם בסיוע לגורמים עוינים לפני כעשר שנים.

      Ah, so I see, a “confession” by suspects likely tortured based on past behavior by these security goons is grounds for believing that these are “facts” that actually happened in the way they’re being conveyed?? I remind you that Makhoul too “confessed” under torture & now completely renounces any garbage he was forced to admit previously. Anyone, including you or I can be made to confess to virtually anything under the “proper” form of treatment at the hands of these people.

      1. Ah, so I see, a “confession” by suspects likely tortured based on past behavior by these security goons is grounds for believing that these are “facts” that actually happened in the way they’re being conveyed??

        I think you’re walking a fine line there. While there are cases where detainees are tortured and indeed lie in order to stop their suffering, assuming this was the case here too should be done cautiously.

        And what if they were telling the truth? Can you even know what’s more likely? I don’t think so.

        1. Look, goons like Shabak don’t vary their techniques. Brute torture works in some cases so it is used in all, esp. security cases involving Israeli Palestinians who have little leverage or power to protest.

  4. The quote about the 10 years came from an article in NRG
    http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/161/438.html

    From reading both articles it is clear that they are sued for recent events. and not for events that took place 10 years ago. one can understand that from the following lines:

    The two, who served a long period in jail for security related offenses, stated during their investigation that during there travels to Saudi-Arabia, in recent years, they met with few Hamas case managers.
    (השניים, שריצו בעבר תקופות מאסר ממושכות בגין ביצוע עבירות ביטחוניות, מסרו בחקירתם כי במהלך נסיעותיהם בשנים האחרונות לסעודיה הם נפגשו עם מספר מפעילים מטעם חמאס בתיווכו של נביל מחזומה, אחיו של מאזן. )

    1. These are “alleged” events, not events. And once again, they are alleged to have made such statements during their investigation. No one knows what they actually said or under what conditions they said them. Until Israel truly outlaws torture in all circumstances such as this no security related confession has any validity whatsoever.

      Our own CIA has found that torture often produces bad information & false results. Shabak goes by the old rulebook because brute force seems to work for societies not fully free or democratic.

  5. Richard, these two are Israeli citizens, they were brought in front of a civil court, not in front of the military system, which means different ball game.
    don’t you have faith in the Israeli court system ?

    the two already served time in jail for previous security related violations.

    1. don’t you have faith in the Israeli court system ?

      Have you not read articles in the mainstream Israeli media about the rubber stamp (their phrase, not mine) the courts give to the security apparatus? I’ve written about & linked to these articles here. On national security matters, the courts defer to the goons I’m afraid. And no I don’t have faith in them in this realm.

      What does it matter whether they already served time for security offenses if the very system that convicted them is rigged against them & allows torture to secure confessions & convictions??? Indeed, torture is a given and routine. It’s not even uncommon or unusual when it comes to Shabak.

      And look at how the IDF treated unarmed nonviolent Israelis yesterday on the Irene. They beat up a decorated IDF helicopter pilot & stunned him w. a Taser when he offered no resistance whatsoever. This is goonery plain & simple. A country based not on the rule of law but the law of the jungle (when it comes to security related issues). For shame.

  6. Richard few remarks with your permission.

    1. The “Shabak” law signed 2002, prohibits any type of torture during investigations, unless a “ticking bomb” situation exist, i don’t think that in this case there was a “ticking bomb” situation hence i do not think they were tortured.
    you can read the shabak Law here:
    http://www.shabak.gov.il/SiteCollectionImages/%D7%90%D7%95%D7%93%D7%95%D7%AA/shabak-law.pdf

    2. as for the Irene event that took place yesterday,from what was published in the media, there was an exchange of heated words on board the Irene, apparently Mr. Shapira refused to put his cell phone down and was teased by an officer, just for the sake of experiment next time you will be pulled over for traffic violation try and disobey the officer, I assure you, you will be treated much worse.

    3. i was unaware that Mr. Shapira is a decorated pilot, yes he was a Black Hawk pilot (if my memory serves me well) but never received any decorations.

    1. The “Shabak” law signed 2002, prohibits any type of torture during investigations, unless a “ticking bomb” situation exist, i don’t think that in this case there was a “ticking bomb” situation hence i do not think they were tortured.

      Ah, so that means that the fact that Ameer Makhoul was tortured means he was a ticking bomb? Where was the bomb? Who proved there was one? Have you seen Shabak confirm Makhoul was a ticking bomb? Of course not. Yet we know he was tortured because he specifically described how he was tortured & the techniques described accord specifically with previous accounts offered by other Jewish & Arab security suspects. Again how quaint that you believe that because your Knesset or Supreme Court directs that something be illegal that this means Shabak will follow suit and act accordingly. Shabak is above the law. You know it & I know it. If it is not then why is there a separate security court that judges Shabak & why does that court never rein in Shabak?

      from what was published in the media

      Which media? Did you read or see this on Channel 10 which actually had a reporter who witnessed the incident? No. In Haaretz? No. Who claimed Shapira did anything that justified being tased (not “teased” btw)? Doubtless a right wing Israeli paper quoting a security source. Again, you see they have a slight credibility problem here.

      He was a decorated Blackhawk pilot. Your memory doesn’t serve you well.

  7. “One of the most ‘sensational’ Shabak “spy” (you’ll see why I use quotation marks shortly) dramas of the past few months has been the “middle of the night” arrest of Israeli Palestinian community activist Ameer Makhoul–with the accompanying arrest of naturopathic pharmacist Omar Said–for allegedly spying against Israel for Hezbollah. This incident is part of a ritual repeated every few months by Shabak both to cow Israel’s Palestinian population into submission, showing them who’s boss, and also to condition Israel’s Jewish population to suspect the loyalty and trustworthiness of their fellow non-Jewish citizens. And it works. Everybody seems to play their part: the Shin Bet parades the suspects and takes credit for protecting the state from treachery; while Israeli Jews (most, anyway) learn the lesson that they should never see their fellow citizens as individuals worthy of respect and equal rights.”

    Sweeping, overblown accusations, no pretension of objectivity, no evidence…you seem to be natural. Ever considered joining the Shabak? Or your fictionalized version of it, anyway?

    “Those who follow such security cases will recall that before Makhoul, we had the case of Azmi Bishara, driven out of his homeland by a secret police ‘investigation’-vendetta which accused him of serious crimes without offering any evidence. ”

    Poor thing. He was so innocent he fled to Dubai, but only because it was a “political vendetta”. And the narrative lives
    on. Here’s what Bishara was suspected of (Hebrew):
    http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=855028

    There was, of course, no trial. So his guilt has not been established. But Richard appears to operate under the assumption that evidence that the Shabak hasn’t been kind enough to share with him must not exist.

    “As I wrote above, it’s as if the Shin Bet case officers are fans of pulpy spy thrillers. They take a real event like the capture of soldiers along the Lebanese border, dress it up with some updated facts and names, and attempt to pass it off as the latest example of Arab perfidy. What’s laughably ironic is that if these secret policemen were thriller writers they’d be laughed out of the room by their fellow writers: kidnapping Israeli soldiers? Been there, done that. Is that the best you can come up with?”

    Yes, boring old kidnap attempts. What will they come up with next, “attempted suicide bombing”?! It has already happened once, therefore it cannot happen again-this appears to be the implication. Every day, you learn something new.

    “Only a few hours after the authorities unveiled this indictment, the Shabak trotted out a new set of Arab “traitors.” (Hebrew) The charges against these are perhaps even more ludicrous than those of our previous victims. Two Israeli Palestinians, residents of Shifar’am and Umm al-Fahm, stand accused of being unable to locate a weapons cache that was prepared for them near a traffic intersection. ”

    No, they’re accused of (among other things) attempting to locate an arms cache for Hamas. You do not seem to believe that this is a crime. Curious.

    “As an aside, do you even believe that a U.S. police force would be willing to appear so foolish as to arrest criminals for possessing such a weapons haul when neither the police or the bad guys can find it?? ”

    Why not? They’ve basically admitted to receiving a map from Hamas and trying to locate the stash. Which is a crime.

    “Maariv claims these guys received $120,000 (Yediot bafflingly claims $200,000) in return their services ten years ago. That’s right, some or all of this happened an eternity ago. ”

    Yes, how ridiculous that they’re being indicted for something that happened some time ago. Because that never happens in true democracies.

    ” I AM claiming that these victims are not them. ”

    That’s for the courts to decide, not you. And thank god for that.

    1. no evidence

      No, it’s you who have it ass backwards. It’s the SHABAK that has to produce the evidence and NEVER does. What evidence have you seen of guilt in this case? What proof? Let us know. Inquiring minds really do want to…I merely question them. I’m waiting for evidence. When I see it then I’ll let you know how I judge or credit it. Till then count me a confirmed skeptic.

      Regarding Bishara, yes he was “suspected” of crimes. None of which were ever proven. And again NO evidence was ever provided. None. Again, find any. They had one moneychanger who they’d scared the living daylights out of & forced to testify against him. That’s it.

      In a proper western trial, you hear evidence through the media, even in security cases. You never do in Israel. Why? That apparently doesn’t bother you since you’ve been innoculated against such transparency. But it bothers the rest of us.

      they’re accused of (among other things) attempting to locate an arms cache for Hamas.

      Read my lips, THERE WAS NO ARMS CACHE. Your own police couldn’t find it. How can you accuse someone of trying to find something that your own police couldn’t find???? Have you ever heard of “evidence?” Where is the evidence? Again.

      They’ve basically admitted to receiving a map

      No, again, they didn’t admit to anything. Once again (how tedious to have to say this again) this is what SHABAK is claiming happened. Has the latter said they have a map? Have they offered such a map in trial? Have they offered any corroboration that it is authentic? What do you think?

      how ridiculous that they’re being indicted for something that happened some time ago. Because that never happens in true democracies.

      In a real, full democracy, when a prosecutor seeks to imprison someone for a crime that happened 10 yrs ago red lights go off & defense attorneys ask: why didn’t you arrest them then? The older a crime the harder to prosecute. That is in a real democracy–not Israel of course where a security officer can succeed in sending virtually anyone they wish to jail on virtually any charge they throw at ’em.

      That’s for the courts to decide

      How quaint. You think the courts have anything to do w. assigning guilt in such cases? Guilt is assumed before trial. If they go to trial they go to jail. There is no such thing as a verdict of innocent in Israeli Palestinian security cases. Courts do not 2nd guess the goons.

      1. “No, it’s you who have it ass backwards. It’s the SHABAK that has to produce the evidence and NEVER does. What evidence have you seen of guilt in this case? What proof? Let us know. Inquiring minds really do want to…I merely question them. I’m waiting for evidence. When I see it then I’ll let you know how I judge or credit it. Till then count me a confirmed skeptic.”

        Of course it isn’t incumbent upon you to prove these men’s innocence. Too bad that that’s not what I said. I was referring to your accusation that “This incident is part of a ritual repeated every few months by Shabak both to cow Israel’s Palestinian population into submission…”. This is a highly serious charge, for which you’ve offered no evidence.

        “Regarding Bishara, yes he was “suspected” of crimes. None of which were ever proven. And again NO evidence was ever provided. None. Again, find any. They had one moneychanger who they’d scared the living daylights out of & forced to testify against him. That’s it.”

        He chose to become a fugitive from justice. Consequently, he was never tried. He isn’t entitled to receive the evidence against him. And neither are you. But if he’s as confident in his innocence as he claims, why hasn’t he returned to face the charges against him?

        “In a proper western trial, you hear evidence through the media, even in security cases. You never do in Israel. ”

        Irrelevant. There was no trial. He fled.

        “Read my lips, THERE WAS NO ARMS CACHE. Your own police couldn’t find it. How can you accuse someone of trying to find something that your own police couldn’t find???? Have you ever heard of “evidence?” Where is the evidence? Again.”

        So? They were allegedly approached by Hamas. Instead of informing the Shabak, they allegedly attempted to assist an enemy of the state. These are crimes, for which they’ll be tried.

        “No, again, they didn’t admit to anything. Once again (how tedious to have to say this again) this is what SHABAK is claiming happened. Has the latter said they have a map? Have they offered such a map in trial? Have they offered any corroboration that it is authentic? What do you think?”

        YNET reports that they confessed. If this isn’t true, then surely their lawyers will argue that in court. And why the past tense? They were indicted the day before yesterday. I imagine that the trial has barely begun.

        “In a real, full democracy, when a prosecutor seeks to imprison someone for a crime that happened 10 yrs ago red lights go off & defense attorneys ask: why didn’t you arrest them then? The older a crime the harder to prosecute. ”

        And the prosecutor responds: Because we didn’t know about it 10 years ago. This isn’t rocket science.

        “How quaint. You think the courts have anything to do w. assigning guilt in such cases? Guilt is assumed before trial.”

        Again, claims without evidence.

        1. This is a highly serious charge, for which you’ve offered no evidence.

          You’re simply not reading this blog or even doing basic homework. If you Google “Shin Bet” here you will find numerous such incidents going back over some time (& this is only the period I’ve been studying Shin Bet persecution, not incidents preceding that) & you’ll find a regular litany of Palestinian victims of Shin Bet persecution. The victims routinely either are not prosecuted at all or are prosecuted on much lesser charges than first trumpeted by the S.B. in the media. This isn’t a charge, it’s a fact.

          He chose to become a fugitive from justice. Consequently, he was never tried.

          I’ve been over this 100 times before here. Pls. don’t make me repeat myself as it’s SO BORING to have to do so. The Shabak ALLOWED HIM to leave the country. They knew he was leaving. They allowed him to. Why? They didn’t want to try him. That’s why. Why didn’t they want to do so? Lack of evidence? Fear of Palestinian backlash? Who knows. But the onus was on the Shabak to charge & prosecute him. The could easily have done so & they refused. You tell me why not.

          Why doesn’t he return? Maybe because he knows that Israeli justice for Palestinian security suspects is a gamed system. Why should he return? So he can end up dying of kidney or liver disease (he has a serious medical condition) given the lousy medical treatment he’ll undoubtedly receive after being sentenced to a decade or 2 in a kangaroo security court?

          They were allegedly approached by Hamas. Instead of informing the Shabak

          Omigod. Given the history bet. the Shabak & Palestinians you think they would wish to have any contact whatsoever w. these goons?? Surely you must be joking. In the Warsaw Ghetto, do you think Jews went to the Judenrat to report partisan resistance activities?? The Shabak in case you didn’t know is not the Palestinians friend. It’s their sworn enemy. And much more fr. the Shabak side than the Palestinian side. It is the Shabak that victimizes the Palestinians.

          YNET reports that they confessed.

          NO, Ynet reports that the security services report that they confessed. That’s a big difference fr. what you wrote. Ynet has only one source, the Shabak. Anything they say comes from the mouth of the secret police & is not independently verified, hence it is unsupported hearsay & should be noted as the word of the Shabak.

          claims without evidence.

          I’ll give you some homework. Go find out the numbers of Israeli Palestinians actually tried for security offenses over say the last five yrs. Then find out how many were exonerated, found innocent, etc. Then let us know what the numbers are. You & I both know that there prob. aren’t any suspects who were tried & found innocent. But knock yrself out & find one. Then tell us what you found. Then we can talk about evidence.

          1. “You’re simply not reading this blog or even doing basic homework. If you Google “Shin Bet” here you will find numerous such incidents going back over some time (& this is only the period I’ve been studying Shin Bet persecution, not incidents preceding that) & you’ll find a regular litany of Palestinian victims of Shin Bet persecution. The victims routinely either are not prosecuted at all or are prosecuted on much lesser charges than first trumpeted by the S.B. in the media. This isn’t a charge, it’s a fact.”

            How do you conclude from the fact that charges are reduced or altogether removed that the Shin Bet is trying to “Cow the Palestinian population into submission”? The Shin Bet, just like the police, brings the evidence that it gathers to the prosecutor office. They then decide on the charges in the indictment and whether to have them reduced in a plea bargain. You’ll find that in general plea bargains are the norm in Israel. Not to mention that what you just wrote directly contradicts your assertion that when it comes to Arabs, guilt is presupposed. You cannot have it both ways I’m afraid.

            “I’ve been over this 100 times before here. Pls. don’t make me repeat myself as it’s SO BORING to have to do so. The Shabak ALLOWED HIM to leave the country. They knew he was leaving. They allowed him to. Why? They didn’t want to try him. That’s why. Why didn’t they want to do so? Lack of evidence? Fear of Palestinian backlash? Who knows. But the onus was on the Shabak to charge & prosecute him. The could easily have done so & they refused. You tell me why not.”

            I’m sorry that evidence based argumentation bores you. But you have yet to prove that the Shin Bet knew that Bishara wasn’t about to return to Israel. And even if they suspected that he wasn’t going to, the man has legal rights. He had a special right to freedom of movement as an MP. Perhaps you’ve just proven that Israel is a law bound society, even when it comes to security charges.

            “Why doesn’t he return? Maybe because he knows that Israeli justice for Palestinian security suspects is a gamed system. Why should he return? So he can end up dying of kidney or liver disease (he has a serious medical condition) given the lousy medical treatment he’ll undoubtedly receive after being sentenced to a decade or 2 in a kangaroo security court?”

            Again, you’ve contradicted that assertion by claiming that charges are reduced or eliminated. Logic is a heavy burden to bear for some.

            “Omigod. Given the history bet. the Shabak & Palestinians you think they would wish to have any contact whatsoever w. these goons?? Surely you must be joking. In the Warsaw Ghetto, do you think Jews went to the Judenrat to report partisan resistance activities?? The Shabak in case you didn’t know is not the Palestinians friend. It’s their sworn enemy. And much more fr. the Shabak side than the Palestinian side. It is the Shabak that victimizes the Palestinians.”

            Even leaving your spurious analogies untouched, your argument here is completely vacuous. The illegality lies in their alleged contacts with Hamas. You seem to be keen on changing the subject. It won’t work.

            “NO, Ynet reports that the security services report that they confessed. That’s a big difference fr. what you wrote. Ynet has only one source, the Shabak. Anything they say comes from the mouth of the secret police & is not independently verified, hence it is unsupported hearsay & should be noted as the word of the Shabak.”

            Fine. that’s why I said that they’d be free to dispute it in court. What’s your point? That they’re innocent until proven guilty? If so, then I agree. And so does the Israeli judicial system.

            “I’ll give you some homework. Go find out the numbers of Israeli Palestinians actually tried for security offenses over say the last five yrs. Then find out how many were exonerated, found innocent, etc. Then let us know what the numbers are. You & I both know that there prob. aren’t any suspects who were tried & found innocent. But knock yrself out & find one. Then tell us what you found. Then we can talk about evidence.”

            Why should I do your work for you? The burden of proof is firmly upon you when you make these sweeping claims.

          2. How do you conclude from the fact that charges are reduced or altogether removed that the Shin Bet is trying to “Cow the Palestinian population into submission”?

            I didn’t say charges were dropped or reduced in ALL cases. In fact, many Palestinians are wrongly convicted & go away for many years. But lately the Shin Bet has been failing esp. miserably in its attempts to throw the book at its victims.

            I’m sorry that evidence based argumentation bores you.

            Don’t change the subject. That has NOTHING to do w. what I was talking about. We’ve been over in this blog the entire Bishara case backwards & forwards 100 times. Do some friggin’ work for once & GOogle the subject & you’ll see that the precise Hasbarist, pro-Shabak, empty arguments you’ve made were advanced by others (numerous times) & rebutted firmly. DO NOT repeat arguments already made here. If you’re in doubt about it do a Google search before you advance an argument.

            you have yet to prove that the Shin Bet knew that Bishara wasn’t about to return to Israel.

            Do NOT tell me what I have to prove. I have to do nothing of the sort. When the secret police has accused someone of treason & allows that figure to leave the country, it has effectively washed its hands of the person. If it wanted to prosecute him it would prevent him fr. leaving the country. It didn’t. And AGAIN, this is the last time you’ll make this argument. I hate beating a dead horse. If you go over this again, you’ll be moderated.

            the man has legal rights.

            That’s rich. When the Shin Bet has allowed Bishara to leave the country, then it’s convenient to say they HAD to let him leave. But when the Shabak arrests a Palestinian trying to do precisely that who was arrested (as was Omar Said), then you say I imagine that the Shin Bet had a responsibility to the State NOT to allow a spy to leave.

            Perhaps you’ve just proven that Israel is a law bound society

            No, perhaps you’ve vainly tried to make an empty, desperate argument that holds no water.

            you’ve contradicted that assertion by claiming that charges are reduced or eliminated.

            That is only lately & only for a select few. There are still Palestinians, mostly the ones whose cases stir up less notice, who are sent away for years.

            your argument here is completely vacuous.

            YOU have rhetorical amnesia. YOU made the argument that the suspects were bound to tell the Shabak that they had been approached allegedly by Hamas, to which I responded by saying how ludicrous the very notion was. As for the claim that their contacts w. Hamas were illegal, I have no idea what point you’re making. But don’t bother trying to enlighten us since you’ve gone off the rails & I’m not interested in hearing you explain how or why you did so.

            they’re innocent until proven guilty? If so, then I agree. And so does the Israeli judicial system.

            Bullcrap. The Israeli judicial system as I’ve proven here before with article fr. Israeli press does not presume the innocence of Palestinian security suspects. It presumes their guilt & prentends to presume their innocence.

            If you say I’m wrong, the burden is on you to prove it. If you refuse, then you’re admitting how lazy you are. Or you already know I’ll be proven right & don’t want to waste yr time doing so. I’ll wager it’s the latter.

          3. “I didn’t say charges were dropped or reduced in ALL cases. In fact, many Palestinians are wrongly convicted & go away for many years. But lately the Shin Bet has been failing esp. miserably in its attempts to throw the book at its victims.”

            Again, the Shin Bet could never “fail” in a country where Arab’s guilt was presupposed in court.

            “on’t change the subject. That has NOTHING to do w. what I was talking about. We’ve been over in this blog the entire Bishara case backwards & forwards 100 times. Do some friggin’ work for once & GOogle the subject & you’ll see that the precise Hasbarist, pro-Shabak, empty arguments you’ve made were advanced by others (numerous times) & rebutted firmly. DO NOT repeat arguments already made here. If you’re in doubt about it do a Google search before you advance an argument.”

            Huh? Name-calling aside, I cannot discern a single argument in this entire passage.

            “Do NOT tell me what I have to prove. I have to do nothing of the sort. When the secret police has accused someone of treason & allows that figure to leave the country, it has effectively washed its hands of the person. If it wanted to prosecute him it would prevent him fr. leaving the country. It didn’t. And AGAIN, this is the last time you’ll make this argument. I hate beating a dead horse. If you go over this again, you’ll be moderated.”

            You keep saying that the Shin Bet didn’t want to have Bishara prosecuted. When confronted with arguments that seek to cast doubt on that, you threaten censorship. Not exactly the conduct of a man confident in his views, or a progressive for that matter.

            “That’s rich. When the Shin Bet has allowed Bishara to leave the country, then it’s convenient to say they HAD to let him leave. But when the Shabak arrests a Palestinian trying to do precisely that who was arrested (as was Omar Said), then you say I imagine that the Shin Bet had a responsibility to the State NOT to allow a spy to leave.”

            They had a responsibility. Clearly, they didn’t act quickly enough. In that sense, the Shabak failed.

            “That is only lately & only for a select few. There are still Palestinians, mostly the ones whose cases stir up less notice, who are sent away for years.”

            Yes, of course many Palestinians are sent away. So are many Jews. That isn’t an argument for anything as far as I can tell.

            “YOU have rhetorical amnesia. YOU made the argument that the suspects were bound to tell the Shabak that they had been approached allegedly by Hamas, to which I responded by saying how ludicrous the very notion was.”

            No I didn’t. Contacting the Shabak would’ve been “model citizen” conduct. But merely not doing so wouldn’t have landed them an indictment.

            “As for the claim that their contacts w. Hamas were illegal, I have no idea what point you’re making. But don’t bother trying to enlighten us since you’ve gone off the rails & I’m not interested in hearing you explain how or why you did so.”

            This is perhaps your oddest comment yet. Contacts with Hamas are by default illegal, since it’s defined as a terrorist organization under Israeli law.

            “Bullcrap. The Israeli judicial system as I’ve proven here before with article fr. Israeli press does not presume the innocence of Palestinian security suspects. It presumes their guilt & prentends to presume their innocence.”

            You’ve proven no such thing.

            “If you say I’m wrong, the burden is on you to prove it. If you refuse, then you’re admitting how lazy you are. Or you already know I’ll be proven right & don’t want to waste yr time doing so. I’ll wager it’s the latter.”

            Oy. So when a prosecutor claims a defendant’s guilt, the burden is on the defense attorney, since he’s saying that the prosecutor is wrong? That’s…novel.

          4. the Shin Bet could never “fail” in a country where Arab’s guilt was presupposed in court.

            That depends what their goal is. In many cases, their goal is merely to intimidate or incarcerate w/o trial as they’ve done so far w. Makhoul. They don’t always want or need to imprison Palestinians to make their pt. I might argue that allowing Bishara to go into forced exile may be what the Shin Bet wanted all along: to send a signal to uppity Palestinian MKs that this too could be their fate. There are a very few limits to the Shin Bet’s power. They do, in some very small sense, feel limitations to that power. So they watch carefully & attempt not to cross red lines by flagrantly abusing their authority in a way that would embarrass even Israeli Jews.

            I cannot discern a single argument in this entire passage.

            That’s because your powers of discernment are ebbing. If you want to argue about Azmi Bishara do a Google search here to find out what others have said before you open yr big mouth. And don’t repeat arguments others have made often 10 or 20 times before you. THAT’S my argument. Can you discern that?

            When confronted with arguments that seek to cast doubt on that, you threaten censorship.

            No, when confronted with arguments others before you have made multiple times & which I refuted multiple times, I tell you you’re violating the comment rules by repeating memes which have been explored, discussed, debated ad nauseam. That’s not censorship. That’s called utilizing editorial discretion. If you don’t like my editorial decisions, no one asked you to come here & you can return whence you came.

            Not exactly the conduct of…a progressive for that matter.

            Don’t you just love when Israel apologists attempt to tell us what progressives should believe or how they should act. It’s just like Israelis who like to tell us how Abbas should behave or what Palestinians should be satisfied with in peace negotiations. Why don’t you worry about yrself & living up to yr own values such as they are before telling me what mine should be?

            Clearly, they didn’t act quickly enough. In that sense, the Shabak failed.

            Nonsense. They had Bishara bugged and followed. They knew everything he was doing, saying or planning. They knew he was leaving the country. Fer chrissakes they control all the departure points fr Israel. Do you really mean to say someone as notorious as Bishara could slip right through Shabak’s fingers when they personally approve at the airport & border crossings every departure of someone like Bishara BEFORE they leave??? Again, they didn’t “fail” since they allowed him to leave. Once again, you’ve made this precise argument at least 3 times & this is the last time. Do NOT repeat arguments you’ve made. Once is enough. This is again a comment rule violation.

            Yes, of course many Palestinians are sent away. So are many Jews.

            “Many” Jews are sent away? For security offenses? What are you smokin’??? The relative percentage of Jews to Palestinians in Israeli prisons on security related charges has to be at least 500 to 1 if not higher. What a laugh you are.

            You’ve proven no such thing.

            I have. ONce again, it’s you who are too lazy to actually do the research to find the articles fr. the Israeli press which I’ve presented here as evidence. You don’t get to say I haven’t proven a pt before even bothering to find out what I’ve written on the subject. You get to do yr homework & actually look up what I’ve written. And if you can’t find it you can ask me to help you with a link. But merely claiming I haven’t proven something means nothing & will get you nowhere.

    1. As far as I see, the point is not about the Rosenbergs’ guilt (which, in Julius’ case, was minor, and in Ethel’s case, probably non-existent). The point is about creating a public athmosphere of fear, which enabled, among other things, the unjustice done to the Rosenbergs in the 1950s US, and which enables the injustice done to Palestinians in the 2000s Israel.

    2. You missed the pt…which was that Ethel was NOT, but was executed anyway. SHE was the one to whom I was referring as the FBI used her as bait & leverage to extort a confession fr. Julius. His refusal & her loyalty to him must’ve shocked the Gmen, who fried ’em both anyway (what heart!).

  8. Richard, you made reference to “former Syrian residents of the Golan“, which sounds as if you are saying that these people were once but are no longer Syrians. You also referred to payment made to “three Israeli Druze families” who, as I recall, are Golani Druze (please correct me if I am wrong here).

    I assume by “former Syrian residents of the Golan” you are referring to the efforts on the part of Israel to impose Israeli citizenship on the very small portion of Golanis whom they did not illegally expel when they illegally annexed the territory in 1981. The fact is that only a tiny handful of Golani Syrians ever accepted Israeli citizenship, and most of those have attempted through the courts to relinquish their Israeli citizenship. To my knowledge no Syrian has accepted Israeli citizenship since 1982. Therefore the overwhelming majority of true – that is Syrian – Golanis cannot be rightfully called “former Syrians” since by all rights they are still Syrian, and they sure as hell are not Israeli.

    1. Sorry, I misspoke above. It was in 1967, not 1981 that Israel expelled all but about 5% of Golanis. It was in 1981 that Israel illegally annexed the Golan Heights, and used draconian measures in a failed attempt to impose Israeli citizenship on Golanis, the overwhelming majority of whom refused.

    2. When I used the term “former” I only meant that Syrian once ruled the Golan (as it presumably will again). When Syria reassumes control they will return to being under Syrian rule. I suppose I could still call them Syrian Druze since Israel’s occupation of the Golan is not legal or recognized. But since Syria doesn’t currently rule there that seems inapt.

      1. I am very troubled by this comment. Among other things, by incorrectly referring to the true Golanis (as opposed to the illegal Israeli colonizers) as Israeli you are legitimizing the illegal and illegitimate annexation of the Golan heights by Israel, which I doubt reflects your actual views. In fact, it was in an effort to make the annexation of the Golan heights appear legitimate that the Israeli government attempted to coerce the Syrians living there to take Israeli citizenship, an attempt which the Golan Syrians resisted both actively and passively.

        – By stating that “Syria once ruled the Golan” you are implying that the Golan, rather than being de jure and de facto an indivisible part of Syrian sovereign territory, is a piece of land that can legitimately be passed from the “rule” of one country to another and back again. The piece of land that you describe as having been “once ruled” by Syria remains part of Syria that is being held under illegal occupation by a foreign country that has illegally and illegitimately colonized and annexed it.

        – Whatever you choose to call them it is simply contra factual to call the Druze who live in the Golan heights Israeli. They are living under foreign occupation and colonization, and are no more Israeli than are the Palestinians who live under Israeli occupation and colonization.

        You can be sure the vast majority of them would be insulted to be called Israeli. Remember that the overwhelming majority of the real Golanis resisted actively as well as passively the occupier’s efforts to coerce them into taking Israeli citizenship, and most of the tiny minority who did take Israeli citizenship have subsequently attempted to renounce it.

        – Though some of the true Golanis are Syrian citizens, for the most part their citizenship status is undefined. Regardless of that, their identity is Syrian. That is how they self-identify, and a few years ago Bashshar Al Asad ordered the Syrian government to issue them Syrian identity cards, so they are also officially recognized as Syrian.

  9. 1. Alon Ben-David in arutz 10 reported the heated word exchange, in the video footage provided one can clearly hear that Yonathan refuses to put down the satellite phone via he reported to Al-Jazera down.

    2. Yonathan shapira, never received any decoration as a pilot or an officer for the IAF or the IDF, and if you claim otherwise please provide the necessary proof.

    3. There is no special court in front of which the Shabak brings it cases – what in the hell are you talking about ? they are brought in front of the Israeli court system when they are israeli citizens and in front of the military court system when they are not israeli citizens and residing in the west bank / gaza.

    1. There certainly is a special court before which all the intelligence services have internal disciplinary cases or other serious internal matters adjudicated which they don’t want to be made public. I’m not talking about cases in which they are prosecuting external cases & suspects like Pearlman or Makhoul. This is a court for internal matters. YOu don’t even know yr own country. Why should we believe anything else you say either?

      As for Shapira, I read that he was decorated & I’m looking for the reference. But until I find it I still think this is a pretty damned impressive bio:

      Yonatan Shapira, 32, is a Captain in the Israeli Air Force reserves…

      Yonatan joined the IDF in 1991 and graduated from the Israel Air Force flight course in 1993. He served as a regular in the Air Force until 1999. While a regular, Yonatan flew primarily as a rescue and assault helicopter pilot, completing well over 100 missions, including missions in Lebanon.

      In 2001, while a civilian pilot and member of the Reserves, Yonatan was called back to service to become one of the founding members of the Israel Air Force’s new Black Hawk squadron, for which he received specialized training in Alabama. Following initiation of the squadron, Yonatan resumed his status in the reserves. As a reservist, he served as a pilot, operations leader and instructor.

      …Yonatan lives in Tel Aviv and, in addition to his work as a pilot, volunteers for “SELA,” the Israeli Crisis Management Center, an organization dedicated to aiding new immigrants and victims of terror.

  10. You must be smoking something.
    Shabak cases are being brought in-front of the regular court system, preliminary hearings are being made by the shabak legal department and overseen by the office of the attorney general.
    may i remind you the 300 BUS event after which the shabak law was signed, as an example that shabak employees are being brought in front of the court system. sometimes in any hearing related to matters of national security hearing will be done in a closed session, just like…..in the USA.

    1. I do enjoy teaching our Israeli friends things about their own country of which they seem to know nothing. Analyzer, let me introduce you to the special intelligence court which you profess doesn’t exist (& I apologize to non-Hebrew speakers for this Hebrew passage you won’t be able to follow):

      בית דין למרגלים

      באחרונה האריך שר המשפטים יעקב נאמן את תקופת כהונתו של סגן נשיא בית המשפט המחוזי בתל אביב, השופט עודד מודריק, כאב בית הדין המיוחד של קהילת המודיעין. גם תקופת כהונתו של ממלא מקומו, השופט המחוזי זאב המר, הוארכה. הבעיה היא שעל פי חוק שירות המדינה לא ניתן למנות לבית הדין אדם שמלאו לו 70, והשופט המר הוא בן 70.

      בעקבות זאת פנה עו”ד חיים נתיב, גמלאי של השב”כ המייצג עובדי שב”כ בערכאות משפטיות, אל שר המשפטים וביקש ממנו לבטל את המינוי. בתגובה לפניית נתיב נמסר מדוברות משרד המשפטים ל”הארץ”, שהארכת המינוי של המר נעשתה בשגגה, וכי בקרוב ייצא מכרז כדין למינוי ממלא מקום אב בית דין חדש. השופט המר עצמו מסר שלא קיבל כל הודעה על הארכת כהונתו.

      הסיפור פותח חרך למוסד שרק מעטים מכירים אותו. בית הדין המיוחד – שתפקידו לדון בענייני משמעת – הוא פריווילגיה השמורה אך ורק למוסד ולשב”כ. ענייני המשמעת של שאר העובדים בשירות המדינה נידונים בבית הדין של נציבות שירות המדינה. בית הדין של הקהילה נוסד לפני עשרות בשנים מתוך ניסיון אובססיבי לשמור על חשאיות מוחלטת בכל הקשור לקהילת המודיעין. בראשו חייב לעמוד תמיד משפטן, שלצדו מכהנים שני ראשי אגפים – אחד מהשב”כ והשני מהמוסד. מאז 1998 מכהן בתפקיד השופט מודריק וממלא מקומו הוא המר. בית הדין מוסמך לדון בעבירות שראשי המוסד או השב”כ סבורים שראוי לשמור אותן בסוד (והם הרי בדרך כלל נוטים להתייחס כמעט לכל עניין שנוגע לארגוניהם כאל עניין סודי שמוטב שהציבור לא יידע עליו). זה יכול להיות למשל מפעיל סוכנים שהפריש לכיסו “עמלה” מכסף שהיה צריך לשלם לסוכנו, ועד לפני כמה שנים, גם הטרדה מינית בעת פעילות מבצעית שבמהלכה לדוגמה מתחזים לוחמי מוסד לבני זוג, וכבר היו דברים מעולם.

      ב-2007 הצליחה נציבות שירות המדינה להפקיע מבית הדין את הסמכות בעבירות מסוימות, כמו הברחות במכס והטרדות מיניות, ולהעבירה לבית הדין למשמעת שלה. אך בשאר הנושאים עדיין יש לבית הדין של קהילת המודיעין סמכות רחבה, ולא מוצדקת.

  11. and as for shapira,
    Richard this CV is nothing but a gathering of nice words meant to impress people like you who don’t really understand the material.

    for example, It says that Yonatahan was a Black Hawk pilot, prior to that he was flying an Anafa (bell 212) yet his CV reflect on the fact that he flew assault helicopter.

    so check your facts please prior to trying to glorify this “decorated” individual or others.

  12. Richard, this special court deals only with disciplinary actions, all other are brought to the Regular court system.
    if an agent would violates the right of a Palestinian it will be brought in-fornt of the regular court system, after a hearing was provided. and this is what i said prior.

    just FYI on the Shapira CV, Black Hawks were introduced to the IAF as early as 1998, so i have no idea what you were referring to in his CV.

    1. this special court deals only with disciplinary actions

      UGH! That’s precisely what I said. That it deals with internal disciplinary matters involving the intelligence agencies. You remember you accused me of being an idiot for saying precisely that. Now, I’m not so stupid, huh? This is the type of behavior by readers w views similar to yours that exasperates me. You’re sloppy, lazy, quick to judge & then when you’re found to be wrong you quickly respond as if you’d never made a mistake in the first place. You give the pro-national security Israel right a bad name.

      But the fact that a secret court handles these matters behind closed doors perfectly indicates the opacity & anti-democratic nature of the entire security system.

      I didn’t write Yonatan Shapira’s CV nor did I make any claims about his role as a Blackhawk pilot. It’s online where I found it & published it.

  13. Richard, surprisingly enough this is what i said to, internal hearings supervised by the office of the attorney general, it’s not a court and the proceedings there are not court like, it’s serves the purpose of preliminary hearings only. it indicates nothing. there is a reason why disciplinary actions against these employees are conducted behind closed doors.

    as for our friend Y. Shapira, you claimed he was a decorated pilot, that is no where to be found in his CV, and it happens not to be true.

    1. if an agent would violates the right of a Palestinian it will be brought in-fornt of the regular court system

      Can you point to any such incidents that have happened? Yes, I think there was such an incident with the Kav300 affair, but that was in the 1980s & that was because the Shabak was caught w. its pants down & tried to blame an IDF general for its own cold blooded murder. How about others? Even one? Just curious to know.

      as for our friend Y. Shapira, you claimed he was a decorated pilot, that is no where to be found in his CV, and it happens not to be true.

      This is the 4th time you’ve said that. One of my comment rules (READ THEM) is that you don’t repeat arguments once you’ve made them. Mention this one more time & you’ll be moderated.

    2. it’s not a court and the proceedings there are not court like

      You’re amazing. You yrself in yr previous comment referred to it as a court, the Haaretz article refers to it several times in the article as a court (one time specifically as the “special intelligence court”), it has judges appointed to sit on cases, & yet you cannot admit your error in claiming there was no such court. The emperor has no clothes.

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