Jon Stewart – The Daily Show – Israeli raid on Flotilla headed to Gaza from Koorosh Vahabi.
Holy cow! The messiah must be on his way. The Israel Project sent out an e mail blast to its activists which is so nakedly honest (and damaging) that it must be seen to be believed:
Subject: In the “messages that fail” department, please see this…
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 13:36:40 -0400
From: Jennifer Laszlo Mizrahi
To: Jennifer Laszlo MizrahiAs to research on saying that there isn’t a “humanitarian crisis” in Gaza and that no one is starving, we will have that on what Luntz and Greenberg are testing next week. But you don’t need that data to know it is a complete dead-end of a message. Reporters and leaders all over Washington are complaining about this and some say they see Israel and cold and heard hearted. Given that 6 more flotillas are headed to Israel (including one of Jews from Germany and one of Jews from the UK) we need to make sure we understand this well.
Watch this from Jon Stewart. Watch to the end and listen to how they react to when Krauthammer uses the message…ouch!
Clearly we need to be saying that “While no one is starving in Gaza because Israel delivers so much aid, there IS suffering in Gaza. We want the suffering to stop. That is why Iran-backed Hamas must stop using supplies for rockets and Hamas must release Gilad Shalit. Hamas must be accountable for their actions and for the suffering they are causing their OWN people.”
On a good note, the topic in the US tonight will shift to energy. Alternative energy is obviously a great topic for Israel as Israel has much to say that could help on this.
Thanks!
Jennifer
Gee, thanks Jennifer for putting Israel’s hasbara effort out there for all the world to see. You concede Israel cannot win on the Gaza siege and don’t even need your trusty pollster flack Frank Luntz to tell you that. Though maybe you’ll share the poll results with us so we can see for ourselves how badly the message polls?
Despite your honesty, I’m afraid it doesn’t extend to how Israel should end the suffering in Gaza. Instead of the obvious lifting of the blockade, you as usual blame the Gazans for their own suffering by falsely claiming that Hamas is responsible for it when you and the rest of the world know that Israel is fully responsible for Gaza’s suffering.
Do keep that hasbara coming about Israel as the beacon of alternative energy. Why don’t you also recommend that Israel cap that BP well in the Gulf of Mexico. Perhaps it can spare one of its nuclear weapons to collapse the well in on itself as some experts have suggested? Don’t you think that would actually be a beneficial use of Israel’s nuclear weapons instead of threatening its enemies with mass destruction as Israel’s leaders, generals, and policy analysts regularly do (viz. Lebanon 2006, Gaza 2008, Iran, etc.)?
Related articles by Zemanta
- Israel eases Gaza blockade (theworld.org)
Richard, What exactly do you think would happen, both in the short and long term if Israel ended the blockade? How do you see the entire situation playing out in that scenario?
-Matthew
From what I’ve seen in the press, lifting the blockade was a condition Hamas put forward for a ceasefire deal with Israel.
A report by the BBC from 19 June 2008 headlined “Israel and Hamas ceasefire begins” stated:
A ceasefire between Israel and Hamas in Gaza has begun, despite a last-minute flurry of cross-border attacks.
The truce is designed to halt Israeli incursions into the Gaza Strip, and to stop missiles being fired from Gaza into southern Israel.
If it holds, Israel will ease its blockade on Gaza and there may be further talks on a prisoner exchange.
Hamas, the Palestinian Islamist group which controls Gaza, said it was confident all militants would abide by the Egypt-brokered truce, which is supposed to last six months.
Hamas’s leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniya, said the truce would “bring stability to Israel if they commit themselves to it”.
Of course, Israel did not ease its blockade as it agreed to and neither did it stop its incursions in to Gaza – hence, the ceasefire ending with enormous violence (Cast Lead).
In answer to your question, Hamas has already stated, as noted above, that if the Israelis lift the blockade it will “bring stability to Israel if they commit themselves to it”.
It’s interesting to note that towards the latter days of Cast Lead Hamas once again agreed to a ceasefire on the condition of Israel lifting the blockade. Did the Israelis get a ceasefire? Yes. Was the blockade lifted? No.
In no way do I condone violence, but from the perspective of tangible justice, I don’t feel you should be asking Richard: What’s in it for the Israelis to lift the blockade? You should be asking Hamas: What’s in it for Gazans to maintain a ceasefire? From what I’ve seen and read, the beneficiary of all and any agreements seems to be Israel, and Israel alone.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7462554.stm
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE51550K20090206
Israel would end the blockade in the context of security agreements among the U.S., Egypt & Hamas which would control the importation of suspect materials capable of producing weapons. It isn’t very complicated.
Yeah, it’s actually a bit more complicated than just waving your hand magically in the air.
For that to work, the US would effectively have to inspect every ship bound for Gaza, which is a donation of resources that may or may not be feasible.
Assuming that it is feasible for the US to take up that mantle in it’s entirety, would the US actually want to?
Finally, how much of a difference is there really between the US inspecting every ship for weapons and Israel doing the same. Given the anti-US sentiment, would Hamas/ThePalestinians actually trust the US any more than Israel?
It’s possible that the answer to all of the questions are ‘Yes,’ but there’s a long way to go between some feel-good strategy and effective security arrangements that both parties can actually trust.
Not at all. How do you think cargo is inpsected in most nations? It comes into port and port inspectors inspect it. That’s what they would do in Gaza as well. But there is barely a harbor in Gaza thanks to Israel’s refusal to allow a proper one to be built. We’re talking about land crossings.
There was an inspection regime in place before Israel imposed its blockade. The same regime or something similar to it could be reinstituted.
No, there isn’t a ‘long way to go.’ As I wrote before, it is very simple. The plain fact is that Israel is making it complicated. And if you believe it’s complicated you may be reading too many Israeli gov’t press releases or news articles based on the same.
Cargo in most nations is not subject the the scrutiny necessary to achieve Israel’s security concerns.
And if everything has to go through a land crossing, then what’s the problem here? This is already what Israel is doing.
The inspection regime, lead by the EU, fled during the Hamas coup. Now I’m sure that Israel had other reasons for implementing the Blockade, but you aren’t helping your case by suggesting to re-instate the old pre-blockade scheme.
You can keep saying that it’s simple until you are blue in the face, but that doesn’t make it true.
Perhaps it is you who is reading too much Palestinian double-speak?
Listen, when I read things from Israel or the IDF, I take it with a grain of salt. When I read something from Palestinian propagandists, I take it with a grain of salt. Perhaps you could do the same?
Oh please. YOu can’t be serious. Israel is allowing into Gaza 20% of the volume of goods compared to pre-blockade. They need to completely open every land crossing & permit everything in except material that specifically can be used for weapons production. A complete opening of the borders. Period.
And you’ll have to pardon me but your telling me whether I’m helping or hurting my case isn’t terribly convincing. You & I both know that the inspection regime can be reinstated as soon as Hamas & Israel both agree on doing this. Israel again is the recalcitrant party. No one else is at fault or holding back here.
You can keep making excuses for delay & supporting Israel’s recalcitrance but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a simple matter of agreeing because that’s all it would take. Israel doesn’t want to agree, doesn’t want a free flow of goods into Gaza, doesn’t want to deal w Hamas & is perfectly content to torture Gaza until the world says Stop. You’re just a facilitator of the suffering with all your shilly shallying.
If there are 2 liars, the one who’s the most powerful is the one I fear most. Besides, Hamas generally have upheld their agreements & tended not to exagerrate or distort their position (we may not like what they say, but they don’t tend to lie). Israel lies out of both sides of its mouth when it suits.
You’re right that Hamas doesn’t exaggerate or distort their position. They want to establish a Islamic state over all of Palestine; this includes territory that is distinctly Israeli. They have said they would agree to a long term cease-fire, but are on record saying that it is only for the purpose of rearming. What kind of incentive does Israel have to make agreements with them?
Where do you get this crap that Israel lies out of both sides of its mouth. Anyone who reads Arabic and English who reads publications by Hamas (and the PA, btw) will tell you that they say one thing to Western governments and media and another to their own population.
You’re so full of anti-Israel bias that you can’t see the forest for the trees.
You’re right, it is simple for Israel to just stop the Blockade. They just stop. But to think that Israel’s security can easily be taken care of is just pure bologna.
Why don’t you react to Anyn’s insightful comment, which you completely ignored, so that you could continue on your own tack endlessly?
I will paste it below again for your convenience:
This is an empty discussion. Israel inspected everything coming into Gaza before the blockade. It can still do this, only without stopping anything that’s not a weapon.
Yet the question is emptier still – Hamas get all the weapons they want through the tunnels into Egypt. That’s not the issue.
The point is achieving an equilibrium in which Hamas wouldn’t WANT to use that weapons.
BTW, many of the rockets are not fired by Hamas, but by more extreme groups (yes, there are many of those). Perhaps is Hamas will have more weapons it’ll be able to control them better.
Point is – until Israel reaches an agreement with Hamas AND fulfills it, there will be trouble in Gaza. Blockade or no blockade.
I knew you were a hasbarist despite the seemingly innocent question you asked to begin this colloquy. I can smell people like you a mile away. So look, here are the comment rules. You don’t lie. And if you say something based on ignorance & I point out to you that you are ignorant & not stating facts, you don’t get to repeat the claim again. So here’s the lowdown. The claim about an Islamic state in all of Palestine is bogus hasbarist propaganda. Repeat it everywhere you want but here. Repeat it here & you’ll be moderated. And READ THE COMMENT RULES if you want to continue to participate.
I dare you to find any statement by any senior Hamas leader from the past few years that says anything close to what you claim. You can’t so don’t even bother to try. But you can just for the hell of it if you’d like to waste yr time.
This too is a lie. Israeli generals & leaders have said this & you apparently are confusing them with Hamas. I wonder why you can’t tell the diff.?
There are over 3,000 posts at this site. Prob. 500-600 deal specifically w. situations in which the Israel gov’t or IDF has lied about something or other. Just Goog’e the world “lie” here & you’ll get an infinite list of posts to choose from.
Another lie & another comment violation. I oppose Israeli policy, not Israel. Apparently for you they’re one & the same thing. But not for me. Don’t make this mistake again. I do NOT allow anyone to call me “anti-Israel.” I’ve spent my entire life dedicated to Israeli peace. I will not permit a shlump like you to say otherwise.
You’ve dedicated your entire life to Israeli peace? What achievements do you have under your belt? I suppose Israel has blocked each and every attempt?
Judging by your blog, the only achievements I can confirm is the fueling the fire of defiance and incitement of Israel.
Stop being a blowhard. And not even a very articulate one at that. You’re right on the edge of violating comment rules.
BTW, what does it mean to “fuel the fire of defiance of Israel??” I certainly approve of those who defy Israeli policies which promote the Occupation. And I’m proud of that.
Richard, I decided to waste my time; Here’s what I found:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/hardtalk/3639093.stm
LOL! Is that the best you can do? Seriously? All you can find is a statement that has come out of the mouths of virtually all Palestinian leaders, including Mahmoud `Abbas, and his gang? Good job of demonstrating how bereft your argument is.
“They have said they would agree to a long term cease-fire, but are on record saying that it is only for the purpose of rearming.
This too is a lie. Israeli generals & leaders have said this & you apparently are confusing them with Hamas. I wonder why you can’t tell the diff.?”
“LOL! Is that the best you can do? Seriously? All you can find is a statement that has come out of the mouths of virtually all Palestinian leaders, including Mahmoud `Abbas, and his gang? Good job of demonstrating how bereft your argument is.”
I dont understand why you’re laughing. Shai has only pointed to what all of us (including you, if i can judge your nkowledge by ur response) already know, and what richard (for some reason) tries to deny:
Palestinians are ready for a long term truce with israel.
It doesnt mean theyll ever recognize us, or wont start a war – when theyll feel they are powerfull enough.
Ummmm – wrong on every count. Saying they have a right IN a place, or even saying they have a right TO a place is not the same thing as saying they 1) will agree to a ceasefire in order to rearm, 2) they will not recognize Israel, 3) they will start a war. This is particularly the case given that Hamas has already stated explicitly that it will accept Israel within the 1967 borders.
You said they view a ceasefire only as a means to rearm & attack Israel. I don’t see anything supporting yr claim.
Having a right to something & exercising that right are 2 diff. things. He’s saying he believes Palestinians have a right to Palestine just as MANY Israelis believe Israel has right to all of Biblical Israel. Most realistic Israelis don’t intend to exercise that right. Nor do most realisitic Palestinians.
But do find me that source claiming what you said Hamas believes. I’m still waiting.
This is an empty discussion. Israel inspected everything coming into Gaza before the blockade. It can still do this, only without stopping anything that’s not a weapon.
Yet the question is emptier still – Hamas get all the weapons they want through the tunnels into Egypt. That’s not the issue.
The point is achieving an equilibrium in which Hamas wouldn’t WANT to use that weapons.
BTW, many of the rockets are not fired by Hamas, but by more extreme groups (yes, there are many of those). Perhaps is Hamas will have more weapons it’ll be able to control them better.
Point is – until Israel reaches an agreement with Hamas AND fulfills it, there will be trouble in Gaza. Blockade or no blockade.
thanks richard,
i have thought that most in the hasbara program are idiots
never liked it..still dont
that they are using that hack luntz as a pollster is proof positive that they need to get out of the biz
best stuff comes from grassroots people like me
richard, i just watched a debate on youtube from rt where an unrwa spokesperson tried to insist that there is a humanitarian crisis based on the fact that in one of the hospitals in gaza, one of the elevators doesnt work
that is not a humanitarian crisis in my book
btw, would you care to share how you came about getting this email? is it edited, because you have it being sent from jennifer to jennifer
She gave it to me because she wanted me to know that like a clock she says something honest twice a day (or twice a decade more likely). All kidding aside, here’s my serious reply: not a chance.
i only asked, because you seem to be the only source for this email
and most people dont address email messages back to themselves
also, emails that come from organizations usually have headers or footers identifying the org
did you attempt to get confirmation that this is an actual email from ms mizrahi?
If you’ve never seen such e mails it’s because you’re not on many organizational e mail lists (which I am). This feature is very common.
I didn’t need to get confirmation. My source is impeccable. If you don’t believe me, ask Mizrahi herself.
Does anyone know of a website where someone has tried to gather all available eye-witness accounts, and links to footage that give information as to what exactly happend on the Mavi Maramara?
The Israeli investigation will not tell us much. We will probably have to wait until a properly investigated book is published on the affair. (But that will take a while.)
Elisabeth
You can search this website
http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/
http://maxblumenthal.com/
http://gazafreedommarch.org/cms/en/flotilla.aspx
The ideal israel that you envision will never happen. It is time to realize that an israel that is compatible with progressivism is harder to explain than a pregnant virgin
Accept? What does that even mean? Accept what? Also source?
Not doing yr homework for you. This is so widely known & accepted that you’ll have to do some fancy Google fingerwork & look it up yrself.
“Accept” does not mean “recognize.” Accept means they will not engage in violence against Israel. Essentially they will co-exist with Israel. That’s the best you’re gonna get at the present time I’m afraid. Maybe after a time when Israel proves it can be a decent neighbor & not kill Palestinians, dominate them, etc. wily-nily then relations might improve & Palestine might actually recognize Israel.
It sounds like you think they’d be doing us a favor by having us draw back to the ’67 borders.
They’re doing the Palestinian people a great service by setting the terms; especially ones they know Israel will never accept; why would Israel EVER agree to pull back to the ’67 borders without a PROMISE of peace and recognition of its right to exist?
Israel will withdraw to more or less 67 borders ALONG WITH a guarantee of peace that will be recognized by the world community & Palestinians. That’s what the Arab League proposal is, which Israel has rejected.
You are obligated under international law, including specific agreements that you yourselves signed, to withdraw to the ’67 boundaries (NOT borders, starting with Ben Gurion Israel has coyly refused to declare its borders).
For eight years the Arab League has unanimously kept on the table a peace agreement that would give Israel everything it claims it wants; peace, recognition, and full, normal diplomatic and economic relations in exchange for a withdrawal to the June, ’67 boundaries. For eight years Israel has given the middle finger to the Arab league and this most generous offer.
Now, care to tell us again who does not want a peaceful resolution to the conflict?
Shirin, Arab leauge is not hamas, as far as i know.
Care to share any interview with hamas leaders saying theyll accept this peace agreement we all probably know by now fatah is no longer relevant to aynthing)
As far as i know this proposal was refused by both sides +-.
Besides, the proposal of the arab league calls to allow refugees to return to their homeland. With all the due respect, i dnt see how we can give citizenship to few millions of palestinians, who have very different scale of values from europe/usa oriented israel, and who’ve been raised to hate israel with passion (and before you or anyone else runs and accuses me of racism – im not saying their scale of values is worse or better than mine, im just saying its different, and htis is why they want / need their own state at first place).
Do you really think that if those millions come back and settle here theyll just adapt to israel, will live side by side with us and we all will forget almost 100 years of mutual hate?
Any realistic proposal should be based on copmensation of any kind to refugees from both sides, and not on practiclly klling israel and changing it from side to side (or at least causing a civil war here), by forcing a palestinian majority in it.
Not true. Hamas has NOT rejected the Arab League proposal. I’m not sure they explicitly accepted it but I don’t believe they ever rejected it. The Arab League calls for the Right of Return to be NEGOTIATED by the parties. Yes, it calls for respecting the right of return. But it finesses the issue of how that right may be resolved which is precisely what the Geneva Accord does.
This is not just patently racist, but stupid to boot. READ MY COMMENT RULES. No racism against either side is allowed. Palestinian values are no different than yours or mine. To try to say otherwise is just plain dumb. What are they–Martians?
As part of the Geneva Accord negotiation process they did a projection that found that roughly 600,000 might wish to return (I didn’t say they WOULD return, but that they would wish to) of all those who would be eligible. So don’t throw around ridiculously inflated numbers. A roughly similar number of Soviet Jews settled in Israel and the country didn’t explode. I don’t even think
it would come to that number. But a significant number will have to be allowed to return in order to make the principle of the right of return real.
Oh, good grief! I hope six quotes are enough for you.
– Khaled Mash’al, Head of Hamas Political Bureau: “Hamas will accept the Saudi initiative and consult with the council of the Muslim Brotherhood”. (A-shark Al-awsat, 2/8/06) (In Arabic). [So much for “they say one thing in English, and another in Arabic”.]
– Khaled Mash’al: “(Hamas) cannot oppose the unified Arab stance expressed in the resolution passed by the Arab League summit. That resolution, approved in Beirut, speaks of recognizing Israel and normalizing relations with it in exchange for a full withdrawal and a solution to the refugee problem”. (Rubinstein, Ha’aretz, 2/13/06).
– Azat Al-Ghashek, member of Hamas Political Bureau, during a visit to Saudi Arabia: “We will never oppose a unified Arab stance and therefore we call upon Israel and the international community to accept the Arab position, so far put aside by Israel”. (Al-Hayat, 3/12/06). (In Arabic). [Again, so much for the BS about them saying one thing in English and another in Arabic.
– During preparation for the Khartoum summit, Amr Moussa, Secretary-General of the Arab League announced that Hamas representatives informed him that following the establishment of the new PA government, the Hamas plans to declare its support of the Arab Peace Initiative. (Al-Hayat, 3/26/06). [Wow – Arabic AGAIN!]
– In response to Egypt’s demand that the Palestinians accept the Arab Peace Initiative, Mahmoud Zahar, PA Foreign Minister, stated: “I will convey all that I heard to every decision-maker and make a clear picture about the initiative. But the problem is: does the other party accept it?” (YNET, 4/15/06).
– Mahmoud A-Zahar: “There are two necessary conditions for the success of the Arab Initiative: (1) fulfilling the basic demands of the Palestinian people; (2) acceptance of the initiative by the other side (Israel).” (Al-Hayat, 4/20/06) (In Arabic). [And again in Arabic.]
“As far as i know this proposal was refused by both sides +-.”
Then you have just proven you know absolutely nothing.
“the proposal of the arab league calls to allow refugees to return to their homeland.”
Either you haven’t read the proposal, or you need to go back to Reading Comprehension 101. The proposal of the Arab League calls for no such thing. All it calls for is “a just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees to be agreed upon” by the parties. That could take a number of different forms, and may or may not include a right of return.
Thanks, though, for admitting that it IS their homeland.
…With all the due respect, i dnt see how we can give citizenship to few millions of palestinians, who have very different scale of values from europe/usa oriented israel… and further deeply ignorant and clearly racist blahblahblahblah.
You don’t know how to use a dictionary, Shai? Okay, let me help you out here.
Accept:
to agree or consent to; accede to:
to accommodate or reconcile oneself to
to regard as normal, suitable, or usual
“You said they view a ceasefire only as a means to rearm & attack Israel. I don’t see anything supporting yr claim.
Having a right to something & exercising that right are 2 diff. things. He’s saying he believes Palestinians have a right to Palestine just as MANY Israelis believe Israel has right to all of Biblical Israel. Most realistic Israelis don’t intend to exercise that right. Nor do most realisitic Palestinians.
But do find me that source claiming what you said Hamas believes. I’m still waiting.”
Shai and i showed u two sources. u disregarded one as not credible (ur choice.. i dont even know this site. just googled for “hamas interviews” and found it).
This is exactly what hamas says though: they are ready to make a long term truce if israel retreats to 1967 borders.
What makes u think/believe theyll give up on rest of palestine? on accre, jaffo and salame vilage, when we all know they believe they have the right for all of it?
Even on your own blog, the user Mary (im not sure shes a palestinian herself, but i remember her writing something about having a palestinian son) writes in every other post about “62 years of occupation”. for her it wont end when israel withdraws to 1967 borders. wat makes u think it will end there for hamas leaders?
Richard, those are words of games, and not more thant that. U get at least one interview where hamas leader says they will +- decide what to do when time comes.
In other words, they say “give us 1967 territory first, and then we will see”.
and this relates to my next saying:
Israel cannot guess or bet on what hamas will do if and when we retreat to 1967 borders.
You are absoutly right when u say we have two choices, either fight with them forever or make peace, but you need two for tango. Im not saying isael is making experiments. im saying u call for such, when you dont even live here and dont risk practicly anything by calling israel to “behave”.
“Peace is not an experiment. You know the result of war. You don’t know what will be the result of trying peace”
Im sorry im saying the same thing over and over again, but Richard, this is EXACTLY the defenition of experiment. You odnt know the outcome, especially not when leaders of hamas says they believe theyll have the right for all of palestine – no matter what.
Because they have said that they would accept a long term truce. A truce means a cessation of fighting for a specified period. I’ll accept a 50 year truce as this is what Hamas has offered & Hamas has a better record of upholding its agreements than Israel.
Now, you’re being unbelievably presumptuous to believe you know what Mary believes & that she is in favor of Palestinian wars against Israel in order to regain all the territory of Palestine for Palestinians. I find this outrageous. And you will not do this in future. Do you understand? You will not make assumptions about what others believe, esp. when you don’t know jack s(&t about what they DO believe.
I’d also accept 50 years truce with hamas, but unfortunatly i dont really trust them, unlike you (and no, im not saying israeli government is not lying either all the time , and htis is why – unlike you – i dont see a black and white pattern for peace in the middle east)
Richard, please notice what i wrote, before you “find this outrageous”.
I have 0 idea what mary or u believe in. i only know what i read
and i can easily find more than one quote of mary talking about 62 years of occupation, and refusing to recognize israel, heres one :
”
mary says:
May 28, 2010 at 8:13 AM
And yes, I put it in quotation marks because I do NOT recognize the right of a racist, fascist state which built itself on a program of genocide and ethnic cleansing, lies and subterfuge to exist. I refuse to use the name “Israel” to describe the land the Zionists have stolen; the name of that land is Palestine.”
from this thread:
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2010/05/26/israeli-press-office-recommends-gaza-fine-dining-as-response-to-human-rights-flotilla-breaking-gaza-blockade/comment-page-1/
i dont wanna go off-topic and to argue with mary (whos not even a part of this conversation) about obvious stuff you also believe in (israels basic right to exist side by side with palestine). i just want you to notice, that this is an opinion from someone you obviously consider as a peacfull person, and this shows exactly what we (israeli jews) have to deal with every single day.
Of course, in the quote i pasted she doesnt say she supports war. She just says she doesnt recognize israel.
You might think its not a big deal, as we dont have to become best friends with palestinians, but when u finish a fight with someone (not sure its the most appropriate word here – english is not my mother tounge)
you wnna make sure its finished. When u finish such a fight and the person says “were ok *for now*” it kinda makes you sleep with one eye open.
“Not true. Hamas has NOT rejected the Arab League proposal. I’m not sure they explicitly accepted it but I don’t believe they ever rejected it”
If you not sure how come in same sentence you claim its not true? how can u write “Not True” and 5 words later “i dont believe they ever rejected it”. i didnt bother looking too much. i merely asked to provide evidence they will accept it (or already have). so far the only evidence i got is u saying you “believe” they never rejected it.
“This is not just patently racist, but stupid to boot. READ MY COMMENT RULES. No racism against either side is allowed. Palestinian values are no different than yours or mine. To try to say otherwise is just plain dumb. What are they–Martians”
Richard,
why everytime somteims disagrees with you you run to call for your rules? i respect your rules and your site and your opinion (and even agreewith some stuff you write), and its very sad u try to disqualify every person who disagrees with you by claiming ur rules are violated.
Its your site, and u can just say u dont post anything thats opposed to ur believes, especially when anti israeli calls (as the one i quoted earlier from mary) are not being commented by u.
i explicitly wrote it wasnt a racist remark, and still i knew i would get accused in being racist.
Hamas believes in creating islamic state. I believe in secular wester based democracy. how is that same scale of values?
And what does it have to do with racism?
IF all people could share same values, there would have no been a need in different states at first place.
It has nothing to do with racism or people of one nation being better than others – we are born and raised in different places and taught different stuff when we are kids. thats about it. It has nothing to do even with israel/arabs conflict. look at usa and soviet union. the cold war lasted for almost 50 years just because the countries had different scale of values (and still do, as theres still no real democracy in russia, and the tzar there is just called president now, just as he was called general secretary during the ussr days). Look at germany in 1938 and UK at the same year. u can find thousands of examples. how is this racism?
“The only Iranians who want the secular, anti-clerical revolution that the neocons claim they want are the discredited Mujahadeen Khalq. ”
Do u remember this quote?
its form this link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/jun/23/iran-obama-neocons-bush
So u believe iranians dont want a secular anti clerical state, u do know that most of the western societies are currently built as such, and u still claim im racist because i talk about different scale of values?
Do you really think u can compare soviet JEWS comming to JEWISH state and palestinian (mostly muslim or even christian) refugees comming to the same state? we have issues even with those soviet jews, as some of them have nothing to do with judaism and commit anti semitic crimes in israel. you really believe we wont face those issues with anti israel palestinian refugees? (and notice i dont blame them for hating us – i completly understand them)
600,000 people might be not alot for usa. For israel its too much. its not a static number, as those people will have kids and eventually will become a majority here.
You claim you support israel. israel is not an abstract term, its a very specific country, created for specific reason, for a spesific nation. If you think having a jewish state is racist – i really cant understand what makes u a supporter of israel then, what IS israel for you, and why you do think palestinians deserve a PALESTINIAN state when we dont deserve our own.
No, you didn’t. But Shirin did (thanks, Shirin). And you owe everyone here an apology for spouting nonsense & wasting our time ferreting out the truth. Next time you wish to make a declarative statement here I’d appreciate yr researching it to make sure it is true.
What made yr statement racist was that you claimed PALESTINIANS as a group do not share Israeli Jewish values and could not live together. Now you attempt to change the terms & say that Hamas’ values are different than Israeli Jews. That wasn’t yr original claim or statement. If Palestinians return to live within Israel that does not mean that they will bring Hamas w. them. But the longer Israel resists the eventual outcome the more radical Palestinians will become.
Absolutely, you yrself claimed Russia was a dictatorship. That is why so many Russian Jews in Israel support far right parties. Palestinians on the other hand actually have democratic traditions esp. those living in the west who may return to Israel. YOU forget the PA actually had a democratic election.
I think Jews deserve a homeland and Palestinians deserve one and both can be within Israel if it is a state of ALL its citizens.
“Either you haven’t read the proposal, or you need to go back to Reading Comprehension 101. The proposal of the Arab League calls for no such thing. All it calls for is “a just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees to be agreed upon” by the parties. That could take a number of different forms, and may or may not include a right of return. ”
Actually, i have now.
this is what i found:
“- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194”
and this is from the resolution:
“11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;”
So the arab league says we should work by this resolution and the resolutoin says any refugee has the right to return back to their homes. how does it contradict what i said?
besides, shirin, you dont need to be so aggresive ( a common issue on this site, unfortunatly) i didnt attack u personally, and didnt invent/lie about stuff. when i dont know something i excplicitly write so, unlike others here who think their guesses are facts.
“Absolutely, you yrself claimed Russia was a dictatorship. That is why so many Russian Jews in Israel support far right parties. Palestinians on the other hand actually have democratic traditions esp. those living in the west who may return to Israel. YOU forget the PA actually had a democratic election.”
Do u really think life in europe changes people?
If it was so easy – there was no need for laws in france against burke in public places. People remain loyal to their traditions even when they immigrate – just like u still see urself as a jew, even though ur family’s been living in the usa for god knows how many generations (and again – it has nothing to do with racial differences, but with tradition and education).
Richard, i return to my original example.
if u think its ok to believe iranians as a group prefer no secular state, why do you think its racism to make such an assumptoin about palestinians as well? (who btw, selected hamas – not exactly a secular party – in democractic elections, and i didnt forget that).
The majority of the jews in israel dont want a 100% secular state either, and this is just fine – as long as theres one islamic state for palestinians and one jewsih state for us, the jews.
Democracy is not the cure for all the pains of the world.
If theres a palestinian majority in israel, and they vote to cancel the law which allows any jew to return to israel – israel stops being a jewish state in a very democratic way.
If they vote for forcing jews to work on yom kippur – itll also cancel the jewish state.
If they vote for hamas,as a legal israeli party and jews will be forced to pay special taxes like 500 years ago in bagdad – again, there will be no meaning to israel.
A just solution doesnt mean we (as a jewish state) have to commit suicide, and wait till theres a vast palestinian majority here, who simply cancels the jewish state in a democractic way. Im still waiting for the palestinian leader whos brave enough to say “ok folks, we get our own state, israel will pay huge compensatins to all the refugees. we give up on our right to return to israel”. of course, it wont happen, as they all understand and agree with what i say – return of refugees to israel is kliling it in a very democratic fashion.
On a happier note, i really didnt read any interview with hamas leaders tlaking about the arab pease proposal. Im actually glad to see i was wrong about it. Probably it would have been a way better idea for israel to negotiate with them, and not with the corrupted fatah lunatics, like mr yasser arafat.
This is utterly disingenuous. Shirin quoted you the actual portion of the Arab League plan that deals w. refugees which specifically rebuts yr claims. And you resort to a UN resolution which, at least as far as refugees are concerned, would be superceded by the Arab League plan. It’s a total non-starter I’m afraid & you show complete bad faith in this torturous reasoning.
If you have a political agenda that is hostile to Shirin’s there is no reason she needs to treat you like her kid brother or best friend. If you speak truth & use facts, even if they disagree with mine or hers, you can’t get into difficulties. If you spout nonsense or come across as someone w. a partisan agenda that is devoid of facts, then you won’t be welcomed w open arms.
I still see myself as a Jew at least in part because America is a place that is largely tolerant of other religious traditions & either allows or encourages me to be what I am. It seems to me that lots of less tolerant societies could learn a thing or 2 fr. this.
There WAS indeed no need for a law against burkas. Wearing a burka is not a sign of cultural inferiority. Anyone can wear a burka or whatever head covering they like in the U.S. (so far). It should be the same everywhere. In fact, by banning such clothing we indicate our own backwardness & intolerance.
I have no problem with an Iran which is ruled by an Islamic republic as long as it is democratic just as I have no problem w. a Palestine ruled democratically by Hamas or whoever wins an election. There is no way that Palestine could become a theocracy or Islamist fundamentalist state as long as it was a democracy since many Palestinians would oppose this. You said, once again as you seem to forget, that Palestinians were somehow “different” and inferior to Israelis. I reject this claim, which is racist.
No, it’s not just fine. In fact, the intrusion of religion into Israeli civil society and political discourse is poisonous.
Is it any coincidence that Michael Ledeen & the neocons believe precisely the same thing. Yr problem is that when someone like George Bush “wins” an election you’re all in favor of democracy. But when Hamas does then elections & democracy aren’t so great. Sorry, but this simply won’t fly as reasonable argument. Of course democracy, when done honestly, is a cure for many if not most of the cures of the world. Yr problem once again is that you don’t want yr enemies to win elections.
You simply don’t have a clue about what Israel will become once Palestinians are fully integrated. It would not be a state that would force a Muslim to work on a Muslim holiday or a Jew to work on a Jewish holiday. In fact, it would be a state that would honor the traditions of every ethnic & religious group. Israel would not lose its Jewish character or traditions. But it would become a state that honored the character & traditions of other groups within it.
The rest of yr commment is so obtuse & full of nonsense it doesn’t even pay to address it.
In fairness, the provision for a just resolution to the Palestinian refugee problem does say the agreement between the parties should be “in accordance with” UNGA 194. However, it is deeply disingenuous for Israelis to pretend that this is such a deal killer as to obviate even using the plan as a basis for negotiation.
– It is not as if the door is closed to negotiation on the specifics of the plan, which is, after all, very general anyway.
– It is not as if there is no wiggle room in the plan as it is constituted now.
– It is not as if there is no wiggle room in Article 11 of UNGA 194, particularly after the passage of more than six decades.
– The Arab League proposal refers to a just resolution to be agreed upon by the parties. There are many different configurations this resolution could take and still be “in accordance with” UNGA 194.
The bottom line is that if Israel really did want peace they would, at the very least, welcome this proposal as a major step in that direction. They would, at the very least, consider it a basis upon which to begin negotiations. If Israel really wanted peace they would not reject this proposal out of hand. It has been obvious for some time which party is doing its utmost to avoid a peaceful resolution of the conflict, and Israel’s utter refusal to even consider this proposal, and its transparently disingenuous excuses for its refusal are among the strongest evidence.
“There WAS indeed no need for a law against burkas. Wearing a burka is not a sign of cultural inferiority”
Notice how u love to insert words into ur opponets writing.
I didnt say burka is asign of cultural inferiority.
I said it was a sign of DIFFERENT cultrue. a cultrue where its ok to mary 6 women (and before u burst in anger and yell im iracist – it was a part of the jewish culture as well in many places, untill not such a recent times, and i really dont care if the islam world is going to accept this for another millenium, )
I also said that unlike what u think, people of DIFFERENT cultrues are not always willingto merge. its not my opinion, its a fact of life, which u chose to ignore time afte rtime.
Im tired to show u time after time how much u contradict urself by saying ” have no problem with an Iran which is ruled by an Islamic republic as long as it is democratic ”
and “No, it’s not just fine. In fact, the intrusion of religion into Israeli civil society and political discourse is poisonous”.
Maybe to u its somehow different – for me its the same concept. people in iran/ palestine prefer religious leading of one kind, people in israel prefer some other kind.
I dont see how sayign that is saying one side is infferior.
I accept democracy with limits. just like you wouldnt want the american nazi party to be in the whitehouse, i wish to keep israel as a primarily jewish state.
“”You simply don’t have a clue about what Israel will become once Palestinians are fully integrated. It would not be a state that would force a Muslim to work on a Muslim holiday or a Jew to work on a Jewish holiday. In fact, it would be a state that would honor the traditions of every ethnic & religious group. Israel would not lose its Jewish character or traditions. But it would become a state that honored the character & traditions of other groups within it”
How can u be so sure? did u talk to all the jews and palestinians and checked what they think about? not to mention even now israel doesnt force muslim to work on their holy days
(even in the idf, christians and muslims get their own holidays), and even now we have problems with them. (last year there was a fightiong in accre between arabs and jews during yom kippur)
Richard people are not tolerant to each other believes by defenition. especially not in a place where theyve been raised to hate each other for 60 years. u can write another 20 times its bullshit, but this is a simple fact. once again – if it wasnt so there was no need for different states. I trully wish it wasnt the situation, but it is.
U cant solve it by saying “ok peace now. u live together”.
And shirin, i dont think the peace refusal is one sided. IVe heard/ read palestniians leaderds writinf/saying dozens of times they wont give up on their right of return.
I also explaind 5-6 times here why its not acceptable for israel (of course, u r more than welcomed to believe that 3 generations of palestiinians will forget they hatred towards us, and we will do the same, and that its possible to havea state which is both jewish AND muslim)
Its easy for any of palestinian leaders to say “we want peace, but all the refugees have to return home”
just as its easy for israeli leaders to say “we want peace but wont devide jerusalem”.
Is it your claim that Israeli Jews can never live with Palestinians because Muslim women might wear a burka??? If it is then it’s an utterly foolish claim.
Merge? Who said anything about merging? Should Israeli Jews have to “merge” into an Israeli identity & divorce themselves from their Jewishness, while Palestinians have to divorce themselves from their religious identity through merging into some construct called “Israeliness?” No, there’s no need for mergers. It may happen over time if there is long term peace.
So you’re claiming that Israel does not have significant & noxious influence from religious forces in politics and society?
No, sorry. There is no such thing as democracy w. limits just as there is no such thing as pregnancy w. limits. You’re either democratic or you’re not. And the idea that Israel not being a Jewish state is akin to the Nazi party taking over the White House is once again a ludicrous & racist notion. You don’t even understand just how racist you are, sad to say.
Ah yes, you mean the incident in which the poor Israeli Palestinian accidentally drove through an Orthodox neighborhood & was nearly stoned to death, starting riots by Israeli hooligans. And you say this is a “problem” caused by Palestinians? Howso?
No, the hatred is not mutual as you claim. Israeli Palestinians do not hate Israeli Jews, but a significant number of Israeli Jews hate & deeply mistrust Israeli Palestinians.
And I’ve got news for you. You currently live with 1 million Palestinian citizens. You can’t wall them off into their own state. They live in YOUR state and you will have to learn to live together with them in full equality which you do not do now. You will also have to accept the return of some Israeli Palestinians to Israel under some form of the Right of Return. It will be painful & difficult. But I know you & all Israel can do it. You will have to do it to preserve Israel.
We’ve aired this fully & you’ve had your say. Do not add anything further in this thread. Do not reply. Find another thread if you wish to continue to contribute to the discussion.