Turkey’s ambassador to the U.S. has threatened to sever diplomatic relations with Israel unless it apoligizes for its attack on a Turkish aid ship, agrees to an international investigation and ends its Gaza siege:
A senior Turkish diplomat warned that his country might sever diplomatic relations with Israel unless its government apologized for the attack, in which nine Turkish citizens were killed; consented to an international investigation; and lifted its blockade of Gaza.
“Israel is about to lose a friend; this is going to be a historical mistake,” said the diplomat, Namik Tan, Turkey’s ambassador to Washington. “The future of our relationship will be determined by Israel’s actions.”
The ambassador too bristles at the Obama adminstration’s less than robust response:
The United States has tried to mollify Turkey, with long meetings and phone calls to Turkish leaders by Mr. Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton. Mr. Tan said Turkey appreciated American pressure on Israel to release the passengers and return the bodies from the ship. But he repeated Turkey’s disappointment over the Americans’ refusal to condemn Israel.
“There is no word of condemnation, nowhere,” said Mr. Tan, who was once Turkey’s ambassador to Israel.
It seems to me with the news that the Turkish dead may’ve been shot execution style during the assault on the ship that Turkey has no choice but to go down this road. All I can say is that if Obama doesn’t get religion on this and but quick he may lose an ally who he’ll need more in the long run than he will Israel. Not to mention that the Turkish demands are in Israel’s long-term interests as well (though no Israeli politician could admit this).
I just read a breaking news item on the Haaretz ticker that says Prime Minister Erdogan has offered to join the next Turksih aid convoy to Gaza. I find that hard to believe. But still the idea of it should concern Israel.
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A Turkish pathologist has said that one of the bullets found in a returned body (some are still “missing”) was something he’d not seen before: a “container filled with shotgun pellets.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug
This was popular in Israel at one point, probably the only country where private citizens would be encouraged to buy this kind of thing. Medawar has an idea it was even made there under licence, but there’s nothing on the web to confirm this.
In the past, ammunition of this general kind, though probably not this make, has been used by British and American special forces in hostage rescue situations, but both the MoD and the Pentagon see it as illegal in general military use. It generally does make large, shallow wounds.
It has largely been displaced for hostage rescue missions by hollow bronze bullets where the central hole goes all the way through the bullet, with propellant gas sealed in the barrel by a plastic plug, which falls away in flight. This is more accurate and predictable than the Glaser slug.
Medawar suspects, especially with only one round of this apparently being used, that it was the private property of someone in the IDF boarding party and not IDF issue.
Few armies that aspire to observing the Geneva Protocols to the Hague Convention, allow soldiers to bring their own ammunition from home, just in case it’s something like this.
If the Glaser was IDF issue and the commanding officer gave a written order to issue it because he thought there were circumstances in which it would be both required and legally justifiable, (the risk to a hostage outweighs the chance of an agonizing wound) they should say so. Otherwise, the soldier who took this with him was, as an individual, acting outside military law and the IDF is responsible for bringing him to a court martial on an appropriate charge.
“Otherwise, the soldier who took this with him was, as an individual, acting outside military law and the IDF is responsible for bringing him to a court martial on an appropriate charge.”
Ridiculous.
That soldier is already guilty of piracy, of a war crime, of murder, and of obeying illegal orders to commit a crime against humanity. The whole of humanity is responsible for for bringing him and all of his superiors, representing the I”D”F and the state that improperly calls itself “Israel” to the International Criminal Court, where they should receive the highest penalty. Also, legally speaking, the only other competent court is a Turkish court and the charge is piracy and committing an act of war on Turkish territory.
El Lonsico, dear friend,
Are you an international law specialist?
I’d like to know how did u make this interesting conclusion the israeli soilder is guilty of piracy, war crime, murder,etc etc.
Were u on the ship while it was taken over by idf?
Mayhaps it is because Turkish prime minister said so?
may i remind you, that when thousands of people were demonsatring against Ahmadinijad in Iran, your turkish friend didnt even open his mouth, to protest against the shooting of non violent demonstartion in tehran.
so how exactly can the turkish prime minister be such an
authority on human rights or international law?
May i remind you something else plz, dear friend, few months ago your turkish prime minister claimed there was no genocide going on in africa (Darpour) because according to him “Muslims are not capabale of such crimes”.
Will you swallow anything thats given to you and is against israel? Do u bother to check facts sometimes? or if it said by Raduan or any other muslim then it is absolute truth
and theres no need to check?
Maybe the problem is somewher else? maybe people like u dont expect muslims to “play by the book”, and then it explains ur silence against whatever happens in africa/ iran
but then why do u expect from israel to behave differently when its fighting against muslims?
I’ve got to say that just about everything about you annoys the hell out of me including yr fake e-mail address “eatapoopoo,” which reveals either your utter disdain for those you are addressing here or yr puerile sense of humor. You’re on a very short leash.
I absolutely detest yr typical hasbarist deflection which goes something like this: “you didn’t complain when thus & such moral outrage happened in the world so you have no right to complain at the moral outrages that Israel commits.” I repeat, I detest this vapid, empty exercise in moral nihilism. I don’t expect the world to behave acc. to logical, rational, proportionally balanced moral principles. The fact that you purport to do so merely indicates to me your are a hypocrite of the first order. The fact you allege w/o offering proof that Erdogan did not protest the Iranian violence does not prohibit him from raging when his own citizens are killed. Only a hasbarist would deny him the right to this. Not to mention that all Muslims are as deeply concerned about the fate of Palestine as Jews are concerned about the fate of Israel. So the fact that a Muslim Turkish prime minister cares about Palestine makes perfect sense to all but, again, hasbarists like you.
And stop using fake bonhommie like “dear friend” & other such snark to address people you can’t stand. It rings as fake as a plug nickel. Once again, all this undoubtedly appears to you to be quite witty & rhetorically sophisticated. But to the rest of us it’s annoying, which is of course yr purpose. But what I’m telling you is yo don’t get away w. that here. Not with me.
I wasn’t aware that Israel is “fighting against Muslims.” So is this a religious war for you?
A – Richard, using hebrew words u picked up in a dictionary doesnt make u look any wiser. “Hasbarist” is a funny term, but you more and more make me feel like u r 15 years old kid, who overheard this new “cool” term, and whos using it as much as possible. Using it two or three times in one short response doesnt make u look wiser, or ur attacks on me more valid. It only shows how little u have to say.
One of the first things you learn when studying for academic degree is not to fill your answers with empty words. Probably you missed this lesson..
B – Same goes to english words.
Apprarently you dont know what a hypocrite is, so for you, from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy
Im not trying to be witty. Im not even writing a blog about things i dont understand, unlike yourself (refer to A and ur use of hebrew words). Im just asking why you odnt have anything to say about Muslim Turkish Prime Minister going on with speeches about the situation in Darpour, and saying muslims cant be blamed in genocide/ violence.
Ever heard of armenian genocide, which was done by turk muslims? Or is it a “hasbarist propaganda” to you?
This is hypocrisy exactly. This is why i dont think israel should listen to a word from a prime minister of a country, which sends his air forces to bomb kurdistan everyday, and you are exactly like him, because it is ok with you that Turkey kills kurds (you silently accept it and i dont see it mentioned in ur blog), its ok with you china tortures peope who oppose the socialists regime, everything is ok with you as long as its not done by israel (and to quote u again “i dont expect the world to behave..”, which only shows im right, and u have expecations only from israel)
As always, you fail to provide an answer that is not a personal attack on me.
Can u answer this question without going to personal attacks on me and my wittines/email address/anything else thats not related?
Can u provide a simple answer why you are obsessed so much with israels luck of moral principels (and i do agree israel mostly doesnt give adamn about those)
when u ,with the same breath, say you dont expect the world to “behave acc. to logical […] moral principles”?
Can u answer such a simple question without using witty words like “hasbarist”? or is it too much for you to handle, and im ruining your good time here by asking it?
Im sure im not witty, and without reading your blog too much, im quiet certain you’ve been asked this in the past.
However, have u ever bothered actually answering those questions with anything that wasnt similar to saying to person who asked you how dumb he was in your eyes?
C – before clicking the “submit” button i saw ur comments about repeating arguments.
I wonder why it surprises you, when u chose to ignore them and attack me personaliy…
Now you’re showing yrself to truly be an ignoramus. I am a fluent Hebrew speaker & completed all my coursework for a PhD in Comparative Lit. at UC Berkeley majoring in Hebrew. So don’t be a total eeedjut as the Irish would say.
Hey, this appears to be entertaining for you. For me it’s excruciatingly boring.
Care to tell me where you studied for your PhD?
You write about things you THINK you understand, but about which you are largely ignorant.
Have you bothered to check what the subject of this blog is? The Israeli-Arab conflict. That’s why I write about what I do. If you want to write about any of these subjects you mention above & want to denounce me in yr blog for not writing about what you write about–gesundheit as they say in Yiddish. But I’m not going to change the subject of my blog meely because you think I’m a moral hypocrite for not doing so.
If you weren’t so damn annoying I wouldn’t do so. But you are–alas for you.
You’re extraordinary. YOu call me a moral hypocrite because I denounce Israel’s moral failings & yet here you admit that you essentially agree that Israel doesn’t give a damn about morality. You leave me speechless.
and one little thing, which probably will be deleted by the liberal/democracy supporting you, because only anti israeli writers might response more than 3 times a day here:
When u expect from muslims to stand behind palestinians and support them, just because they are also mslims
you clearly turn it into a religion issue.
It makes 0 sense to write “Muslims supporting palestine is trivial” and then “I wasnt aware israel is fighting against muslims”.
if israel is NOT fighting muslims, why is it trivial for you that muslims automaticlly support palestinians?
Please, learn to base / express ur thoughts in a way they wont contradict each other/ your general agenda.
Currently your responses are in a level of “Israel Sucks. Palestine rules”. im sure someone who’s pretendous like urself can write smarter stuff than this.
I don’t “expect” Muslims to support Palestinians. It is simply a fact that Muslims the world over feel a special affinity & bond with Palestinians because Jerusalem plays an important role in Islam regardless of what Dore Gold tries to say on this subject.
I in fact never said this. You have placed quotation marks & attributed to me a statement I did not write, nor do I believe anything like what you have attributed to me.
Pls learn to quote me properly & I might take you a smidgen more seriously than I do. I’d say that for you to opine about the “smartness” of my writing or giving me advice on how I should write makes you into a laughingstock.
“Few armies that aspire to observing the Geneva Protocols to the Hague Convention, allow soldiers to bring their own ammunition from home, just in case it’s something like this.”
And what has Israel EVER done to suggest that it aspires to observing the Geneva Protocols, or any other international law?
I imagine the diplomatic situation was not improved by Friday’s “accidental” Israeli government promotion (retracted three hours later) of Caroline Glick’s vile “We Con the World”: video.
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2010/6/5/101953/3412
I am wondering why Turkey is making these threats but hasn’t done anything yet. I think they should either sh*t or get off the pot. Enough already; the victims’ friends and families are waiting. The Turkish people are waiting. All people interested in justice are waiting.
There is an internal debate in Turkey how to react.
See for example:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/t.php?t=troubled%20alliance
Perhaps a modicum of wary caution as they approach a global flashpoint?
RE: “a modicum of wary caution as they approach a global flashpoint” – medawar
SEE: Israel stations nuclear missile subs off Iran – Times Online, 05/30/10
(excerpts) Three German-built Israeli submarines equipped with nuclear cruise missiles are to be deployed in the Gulf near the Iranian coastline…Some of the cruise missiles are equipped with the most advanced nuclear warheads in the Israeli arsenal…
….The submarines could be used if Iran continues its programme to produce a nuclear bomb. “The 1,500km range of the submarines’ cruise missiles can reach any target in Iran,” said a navy officer…
ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7140282.ece
ALSO SEE – Israel Raises Nuke Threat to Iran, By Ira Chernus, 06/03/10
LINK – http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/06/03-10
Caution against what, exactly? Justice? From what I am seeing, the long, dragged-out silence coming from the Obama administration just tells me that they’re hoping the whole thing will just go away. They’re obviously giving the Israelis ample time to cover themselves, formulate the usual excuses and invent a few new ones. The spin is incredible. Today Netanyahu issued another statement calling the passengers on the flotilla “terrorists.” I wouldn’t call this “wary caution.” At least Erdogan isn’t watering down his rhetoric, either; he has said, “the world is sick of your lies.”
Dear Mary,
Have u opened ur mouth (or used the keyboard, for that matters) even ONCE to protest against genocide in darpour, or turkish attacks on Kurds, or the violence of Irans authorities against peacefull demonsrations, when ahmedinijad was “elected”?
Is it only israeli violence that bothers you?
May i also please remind you Gaza strip has a BORDER WITH EGYPT, where no israeli soilders are present ever since 2005.
How come ur friends from turkey dont try to “break the siege” on egypt’s side?
If the situatoin in gaza is so problematic – wouldnt it be nice for them to get some help from their muslim brothers and friends in egypt?
OK, this is now the 2nd time you’ve used the same argument. DO NOT REPEAT YOURSELF. Use an argument once. Then move on. If you use the same argument repeatedly esp. in the same thread you’re violating the comment rules.
Maybe because Egypt isn’t occupying either Gaza or the West Bank while Israel is. Maybe because Egypt hasn’t invaded Gaza & killed 1,100 civilians & 300 children among them.
You clearly like to repeat yrself since you think yr arguments are so clever the first time that using them again would be even more rhetorically persuasive. Not so. Trust me (or not).
Haaretz claimed that the border with Egypt to Gaza has been opened several days ago following the Maramara attack, for 3 days. Has it closed again? Does anyone know?
Although I completely disagree with the tone of UgandaFriend, I do believe Egypt to be the one that will help to break the siege on Gaza before Israel does that.
It seems like they might have already done so to some extent. Or am I wrong?
They opened the border under enormous pressure fr. the Muslim world. I haven’t heard the border has yet been closed down so I assume it is still open. But undoubtedly it will close again unless the world forces Israel to end the siege. Egypt’s ruling class dislikes Hamas almost as much as Israel.
The border is open indefinitely, but I am not sure how “open” it is. Don’t count on Egypt to do anything, because it is under treaty with both the US and Israel to keep the status quo if it wants to keep the more than $2 billion a year it receives from the US.
The entire political climate must change to make this occupation end, including the unholy alliances which finance it and sustain it.
Richard, breaking news for you: theres no even one single israeli soilder in gaza. Israel sits on the bordes (just like egypt) and blocks entrance to gaza (just like egypts been doing till yesterday or today).
Your “Egypt hasnt invaded gaza” omment is also far from being true. Egypt controlled Gaza untill 1967 (while it was supposed to be part of Palestine ever since 1948, and egypt didnt exactly attempt to create a state there during tose 20 years).
Once again, your logic is astonishing.
So because Israel was the *last* state which conquered gaza – you dont expect egypt to help palestinians?
Oddly enough, this contradicts ur comment from above, as u mentioned there its “expected from Muslims to care palestinians”.
So you dont know history,
You contradict yourself with ur 5th grade level logics
But hey – at least u use words like “hasbarist” which must sound very convincing to other fellow writers here. Probably makes them think u r a tru speciliast on the confilict between Palestine and Israel.
Keep up the good job, Richard!
Egypt did invade Gaza? When? I must’ve missed that historical development. Egypt has never really wanted to control Gaza as far as i can tell is only too happy for Israel to occupy it I’d guess.
Not what I said. Because Israel CONTROLS & OCCUPIES Gaza now Israel is responsible, not Egypt.
Ad hominem, insulting attack–another comment rule violation. Keep it up. Even a cat has only nine lives. You’ve passed 8 here. Don’t push me.
Actually, yes, I have, UgandaFriend. All my life. In fact, while I was growing up I was quite well acquainted with what Idi Amin was doing in Uganda. My mother had a friend who was a Roman Catholic missionary in Fort Portal, and we heard regularly about what was happening, and as a result, I have always been a champion of human rights. I don’t know why you seem to think that caring about the Palestinian people means I don’t care about anyone else.
You seem to be obsessed with Muslims, as though Islam has something to do with the siege on Gaza and the occupation of Palestine. I won’t even begin to wonder where your Islamophobia comes from, nor will I ask. I will, however, say that your entire comment towards me is nonsensical and in an antagonistic tone, which I resent because I never addressed you in this thread.
In conclusion, whether I have “opened my mouth” for any human rights matters is actually none of your business and is irrelevant to this thread. Either be civil, or you will see a side of me that you, and Richard, may not like.
I would like to invite readers here to read a very interesting piece by Uri Avnery, a prominent Israeli peace activist over the recent killing of Turkish aid workers by the IDF off the coast of Gaza:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1275739480/
This has nothing to do with Turkey, but I just hafta recommend this article by Spencer Akerman in The National. It’s brilliant:
http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100604/REVIEW/706039978/1008
Its nice to blog about israeli war crimes. I challange you to make the next step. Put your money where your mouth is and participate physically in the next flotilla. It could raise your profile among journalists and bloggers
First, I have 3 young children & a wife who might divorce me if I went. But aside fr. that I’d be very interested in going, possibly on the Jewish flotilla that is currently in the planning stages in Germany. I think it would be an amazing experience.
The Jewish flotilla sounds to me like an interesting initiative. Please update if you have more info.
I agree. Here’s a Ynetnews link an Israeli journalist sent me today.
The voyage organizer just sent me a link to their (German only) website.
Im sure your wife would understand. There were Turks on board who left their wives and young children at home.
Yes, I admire their sacrifice. I stand in awe of it. But I feel horrible about the children who will not have their fathers as they grow up.
I have already been in touch w. those organizing the Jewish ship & will be promoting their project & helping them fundraiser for it.
Richard,
Please update us on the fundraising.
Would love to contribute however small.
Richard, being there in spirit is enough, especially if you have someone on the flotilla to keep in touch with so that you can let us all know what’s happening. What you do on your blog is priceless so don’t worry about not being on a boat.
Thanks. There is so much I would like to do. I would love to spend some time in Gaza, the West Bank, & also visit w Israeli peace activists. I’d love to visit Iran too (maybe not this very minute!). There is so much that can be written and learned fr. such eyewitness experience. For now though, this will have to do. And thanks for understanding that.
Can you supply more information about the new flotilla?
To the nine (9) brave Turkish souls I have this to say:
I don’t know where Rachel Aliene Corrie is ( God Bless her brave Soul), but whever she is, she must be so proud of your sacrifice. We will never forget your ultimate sacrifice my brothers :
1. Furkan Dogan ( 19 )
2. Necdet Yildrim ( 32 )
3. Cevdet Kiliclar ( 38 )
4. Ali Heyder Bengi ( 39 )
5. Cengiz Akyuz ( 41 )
6. Fahri Yaldiz ( 43 )
7. Cengiz Songur ( 47)
8. Cetin Topcuoglu ( 54 )
9. Ibrahim Bilgen ( 61 )
We will never forget – as long as we live. God Bless everone of you.
Atique Mirza