20 thoughts on “U.S. Officials ‘Dismayed’ at Gaza Flotilla Attack – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. “Face it, Bibi knew he was going to Washington for a meeting with Obama the day after the raid would occur on the flotilla”

    Had Bibi known this? With the flotilla having various difficulties, running late, leaving a ship behind, could bibi have planned this so precisely?

    Richard, I’m sorry you keep to this opinion of yours that Hamas is something different from what it really is – an organization devoted to creating one Muslim state in Palestine. Furthermore, I really can’t find evidence that there are some peaceful intentions on the Hamas agenda behind their attempts at deception.

    1. Last week, the media said the ships would arrive in Gaza waters during the weekend. Regardless of schedules or postponements that’s precisely what happened. Whether the intervention happened on Friday or Monday is immaterial. Bibi knew the event would happen & knew roughly when it could happen.

      And you don’t know anything about Hamas. Nothing. You don’t read what they say. And if you do you treat it all as trash & lies. That’s yr problem. If you do, then don’t complain that the world treats everything Israel & the IDF says in roughly the same way.

      1. I indeed treat most of what Hamas said as lies. Watching them for the past several years, say from the late 90’s, I’m yet to see them put their money where their mouth is.

        The way I see it, every cease-fire is nothing but a breather for hamas to re-arm and achieving and sustaining such a cease-fire in the first place always requires bringing Hamas to their knees or at least making clear it was possible.

        This is getting off topic quickly so i’ll just note that I’ll believe Hamas when they’ll pronounce an unconditional ceasefire even for a little while.

        1. I indeed treat most of what Hamas said as lies

          You didn’t even need to say so. So when Hamas & Palestinians in general treat most of what Israel says as lies then two wrongs make an even worse wrong.

          The way you see it, you don’t see anything except what you want to see, which isn’t what’s really in front of yr eyes at all.

          Hamas is currently observing a ceasefire. What more do you want? You want them to sue for peace, say they’re sorry, sing Hatikvah, that they’ll be good little Arabs fr. now on?? That’s not the way it works. You get peace w. Hamas when you’re willing to give them something they want. You don’t give up territory, you don’t get peace. It’s that simple.

          1. I don’t mind sharing the land. What I want is to be certain that once I get a deal, it’s a deal. What I mean is that once an agreement is reached, it should mean the end of the conflict. From what I’ve read (mostly Ha’aretz), Hamas merely offers a prolonged cease-fire in exchange for the land.

            Right now, I have every reason to believe the current adherence to the cease-fire is out of fear, a desire to rebuild and rearm and prepare for the next round. It’s a tactical decision, not a strategic turn in the peaceful direction.

            I do have confidence in Fatah. For the past several years, under Abbas, Fatah looks much better. Once Hamas learns by example (which i am sure they won’t), there will be something to talk about.

          2. From what I’ve read (mostly Ha’aretz), Hamas merely offers a prolonged cease-fire in exchange for the land.

            A 50 year ceasefire will bring peace to the region for our lifetime and that of our children at the very least (& prob. a lot longer).

            I have every reason to believe the current adherence to the cease-fire is out of fear, a desire to rebuild and rearm and prepare for the next round.

            No, you don’t have every reason to believe that. You have a close minded prejudicial perspective which is the only reason you have. As for your claims about Hamas’ intentions, virtually every Palestinians believes the exact same thing about Israel’s bad intentions.

            I do have confidence in Fatah.

            Fatah is not the Palestinians. You have to negotiate with the Palestinians, not Fatah. You can’t make a deal w. Fatah alone.

          3. “The way you see it, you don’t see anything except what you want to see, which isn’t what’s really in front of yr eyes at all.”

            The amount of irony that arises from this is indescribable.

    1. Of what significance is it that the U.S. is supporting Israel’s account if it is? The U.S. has just as much a vested interest to downplay this event as Israel does. But downplaying won’t work.

  2. I don’t know who you are but you definitely seem to draw similarities between a terrorist, murderous group that openely states its goal as the destruction of the state of israel, Has Ve Halila, and an established state that is recognized by the wold community.

    Now, how can you even compare between a people, that has just been butchered by the nazis murderers, and their quest for freedom, trying to connect back with their land, from which they have been expelled from thousands of years before, through a ship called Exodus, and a fanatic murderous group supported by an Iranian regime that kills its own people in the streets, and supported by an islamist state like Turkey that is now showing off its real face, supposedly trying to bring “Humanitariian” supplies?

    My opinion is that you are counted with those that are self haters, if you are a Jew, and a one sided mind that doesn’t let you look at the whole picture from a balanced angle.

    No doubt that the Arab and muslim world has an influence on your mind because of your natural fear of them, like all the European countries that are being infested by them, as well as this very country of the USA with a leader of their own.

    I do not see how a solution can be found at this point in time, unless it recognizes the right of the Jewish people to live within the boundaries of its promised Land of Israel, Jerusalem as its eternal Capital.

    G-D Bless israel forever.

    1. a terrorist, murderous group that openely states its goal as the destruction of the state of israel

      Many in the world consider Israel at least as much an outlaw state based on violence as Hamas.

      an established state that is recognized by the wold community

      Not anymore, several major nations have withdrawn their ambassadors in protest of this massacre. They don’t recognize Israel’s right to engage in mayhem & piracy on the high seas. Nor does the UN Security Council which sanctioned Israel yesterday.

      Calling me “self-hating” is a major comment rule violation. YOur future comments will be moderated & any future violations will cause your privileges to be revoked.

      1. “several major nations have withdrawn their ambassadors in protest of this massacre”
        This is news to me. Other than Turkey what other “major nations” or “minor nations” have recalled their ambassador?

        1. I reported that Dimi Reider tweeted that Sweden, Spain and several other nations had done so. He must’ve heard this on Israeli media though perhaps he meant to say that the Israeli ambassadors in those countries had been summoned for a dressing down.

          1. Nicaragua has also suspended (not severed) diplomatic relations, whatever that means in detail.

      2. “Many in the world consider Israel at least as much an outlaw state based on violence as Hamas”

        Most of these states that somehow equate Israel and Hamas are criminal states and major human rights violators. Once they stop chopping arms for theft and hanging LGBT people they’ll deserve a say on whether Israel is moral or not.

        As for Turkey, they’re on their way to an Islamic theocracy unless they’ll come to their senses soon. I’m sure the secular and kurdish population of Turkey won’t suffer a bit as a result.

        1. Actually, Turkey is far more democratic & liberal under Erdogan than it was under previous politicans who were beholden to the Military/Kemalist establishment. And allowing Muslim women to wear a veil in public does not mean Turkey is on its way to becoming an Islamic theocracy.

        2. Most of these states that somehow equate Israel and Hamas are criminal states

          I’m not talking about “states.” I could care less what a state says about Israel. When I say “many in the world” it means many PEOPLE in the world.

          You don’t know jack about Turkey. What you know about its society, political system & culture we can put in a thimble. Turkey is just as democratic as Israel.

  3. Eitan Bronner isn’t “lying” because he interprets HAMAS’ actions and statements in a different way than you do. You see, virtually everyone in Israel takes the HAMAS charter as their operative position, NOT statements made by random HAMAS officials to western reporters. Now you are going to jump up and down and stamp your feet and say that HAMAS’ doesn’t view its charter as operative and that they had a “shmegegee” (your term) write it up without consulting the membership and leadership of the organization. You are certainly not in a position to make such a far-reaching assumption, even if you heard it from Rashid Khalidi. Bronner is, like the rest of us, assuming they mean what they say. And they never said they would make “peace” with Israel, instead, they talked about a temporary cease-fire in return for a withdrawal to the pre-67 lines.

    I will go out on a limb and say that if Israel were to send troops into the Gaza Strip and drive HAMAS out, the large majority of the population would greet the IDF troops as liberators, which would last a couple of weeks before they would start demonstrating against them (see Iraq in 2003 for a similar pheonomenon).

    1. virtually everyone in Israel takes the HAMAS charter as their operative position

      First, this statement is flat out false. YOU take it as Hamas’ position. The Shin Bet & IDF senior command take it as an operative statement because it is in yr political interest to do so. But actually a majority of Israelis are in favor of negotiating with Hamas & wouldn’t be if they believed as you do. Second, Eitan Bronner is supposed to be an independent journalist for a U.S. newspaper and not “an Israeli.”

      The statements made by “random” Hamas officials were actually statements made by the most senior officials of the movement & by no means “random.”

      You are certainly not in a position to make such a far-reaching assumption

      Not my theory, buddy. It’s Rashi Khalidi’s, far more an expert on these things than either of us. If your sources are better than his let us know what they are.

      Bronner is, like the rest of us, assuming they mean what they say.

      There is no “they.” It wasn’t written by a “they.” It isn’t supported by a “they.” It has no sway, no effect. No one even knows what’s in the document except Itamar Marcus & you. I’m not going to get into a debate about the covenant. We’ve covered the issue ad nauseam. So get off the subject.

      they never said they would make “peace” with Israel, instead, they talked about a temporary cease-fire in return for a withdrawal to the pre-67 lines.

      That’s not true. They have explicitly said that they consider the tahdiya as equivalent to recognizing Israel. But you don’t believe anything they say anyway as you’ve already noted. SO why bother.

      I will go out on a limb and say that if Israel were to send troops into the Gaza Strip and drive HAMAS out, the large majority of the population would greet the IDF troops as liberators,

      So far out on a limb that it breaks like a twig depositing you in a ditch where you’d belong for holding such stupid views. Did Gaza welcome the IDF as liberators during Cast Lead? Show me the pictures. I must’ve missed those.

  4. RE: “When will they have the courage of their convictions (or I should lack of convictions) and break out of their timidity?” – R. Silverstein

    ALSO SEE: Israel and Harman in Tandem: From High Seas to Airwaves ~ By Norman Solomon, Common Dreams, 06/21/10
    (excerpts) …The basic difference between Harman and Winograd on human rights is clear in the aftermath of the killing of Gaza flotilla activists.
    Harman stayed silent. Not a word about the massacre on her campaign website.
    Winograd quickly released a statement. “I suspect the murders were committed as a warning to others who might want to bring humanitarian aid to Gaza,” she said. “Ironically, the killings are bound to heighten awareness about the brutal blockade and to increase pressure to end the imprisonment of over a million people in Gaza.”
    And Winograd added: “Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. Enough, we must stop this, and adhere to the laws that have been established by the international community. Working for peace and human rights for all is the only way forward. As a Jewish woman of conscience, I invite my opponent, Jane Harman, another Jewish woman, and all of Congress to join me in denouncing this kind of barbaric violence, demanding an end to the blockade and seeking an international investigation into these murders. I recommit myself to working towards a true, just and lasting peace.”…
    …The so-called smart money is on Harman in next Tuesday’s primary, but the incumbent — like the Israeli government — has reason to worry. Sometimes, moral revulsion can topple defenders of the indefensible.
    In any event, no amount of advertising firepower can bring down the high moral ground of Marcy Winograd’s grassroots campaign for Congress. – http://winogradforcongress.com

    ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/06/01-0

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