115 thoughts on “Demand International Investigation of Gaza Flotilla Massacre – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. indeed irony… from Israeli Wikipedia about Exodus

    ב-02:30 לפנות בוקר ה-18 ביולי 1947, כיממה לפני שהייתה אקסודוס אמורה להגיע לחופי ארץ ישראל, נגחו בה משחתות בריטיות. באותה עת נמצאה “אקסודוס” במרחק כ-20 מייל ימי מחוף עזה. הבריטים הצליחו להעלות לאונייה 50 חיילים, תוך ירי פצצות עשן ורימוני גז מדמיע ולכבוש את תא ההגה. כיבוש זה לא סייע בתפיסת האונייה כיוון שרב החובל אהרונוביץ’ נהג את הספינה מהגה חלופי. החיילים נרגמו ב”תחמושת” שהוכנה מראש ועקב כך פתחו באש חיה כנגד המעפילים. לאחר מאבק קשה, שגרם למותם של שלושה מעפילים, של הקצין הראשון וכן לעשרות פצועים, הורה מפקד האונייה, יוסי הראל, על כניעה והאונייה הפליגה לנמל חיפה, שם הורדו נוסעיה בכוח לאוניות הגרוש.

    http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%A7%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%93%D7%95%D7%A1_%28%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%AA_%D7%9E%D7%A2%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9D%29

    1. That was also my immediate association. My grandparents were on Exodus and this is what the country they dreamed of is doing.

      The Israeli duplicity does will never cease to amaze me.

  2. YES!

    Set it up and people will come, this is an outrage. Yigal Palmor just interview on Australian news and described humanitarians as militants and terrorists. Enough if the lying liars.

    1. “Yigal Palmor just interview on Australian news and described humanitarians as militants and terrorists” – which some of them may well be. Fire was opened because probably because the people on board resisted arrest likely with clubs and knives.

      However, I think the attempt itself to capture the flotilla is foolish and they should have been allowed to proceed. This tragedy is an absolutely foreseeable outcome which should have been avoided.

      1. There were no terrorists on that boat. Don’t be ridiculous. There are many well known peace activists and political figures participating in the flotilla, but no terrorists. Good God, man, get real.

        1. Clubs, knives and guns are the sensible approach for peace activists.

          Besides, being a peace activist or a terrorist are not mutually exclusive. Especially not when you wish to achieve peace while driving an entire nation into the sea.

          And don’t get me started on the mutual exclusivity of political figures and terrorism.

          1. Especially not when you wish to achieve peace while driving an entire nation into the sea.

            READ MY COMMENT RULES. I don’t suffer fools or hasbarists gladly. This is NOT a debating society. This is not a place to score points in the propaganda war on behalf of Israel. If that’s yr purpose either you’ll go elsewhere or be bounced outa here. You have absolutely no justification to bring up the stupid, out of date, pointless “the Arabs want to drive us into the sea” meme. This is beyond stupid. So drop it & read my comment rules if you want to continue participating here.

  3. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-israel-flotilla-20100531,0,1839736.storye

    following the rules richard…according to the video tape, the peaceful protesters attacked the navy commandos

    did the commandos have to land on ship? that should be investigated…but when you use force, you are no longer a peaceful protester.

    and this is the 4th time i have seen someone bring up the exodus in comparison with the flotilla….can someone please explain to me the moral comparison? the people on the flotilla were not refugees…are you trying to compare the exodus with the situation for the gazans?

    1. Use yr brain & stop asking people to do yr thinking for you. If you can’t figure out the connection then don’t expect us to do it for you. I’m about the write a post about this so you’ll hear more about it.

      1. I and my friends were watching nonstop video streaming from the ship, were receiving twitter feeds until the Israelis began jamming the signal, but I saw clearly where the commandos came aboard ship and began firing their weapons at people indiscriminately.

        I am also well acquainted with some of the people on board. There is just no way in hell you’re going to successfully sell this bill of goods, that these peace activists attacked anyone. You’re getting beyond desperate and I suggest you stop embarrassing yourselves. Nobody is believing you.

  4. Knee jerk reactions are unbecoming.
    International investigations are inherently incomplete and only exacerbate issues. They normally and formally elevate tensions rather than descale them.
    A White House “dis-invitation” would speak millions
    After all China is still diddle-daddling afte 47 Koreans killed and
    this AFTER AN INTERNATIONAL INVESTIGATION proved so
    Look at the current Korean peninsula tinderbox.

  5. Let me know what you think I might do from Geneva to help, Richard. I’m with you 100%

    But I think you’re looking in the wrong place if you expect Obama or Clinton to support your plan. They’ll figure out someway to justify Israel’s position, if only by silence as they did re Gaza massacre. Israel believes it can get away with this crap because they know the US administration tolerates whatever the do. On to Iran.

    1. This is my gov’t so I want to try to exert pressure where I can. But I certainly don’t restrict what I’m doing to Obama. I want the world including the Arab world and Israel to know that we disapprove of this madness and want to do what we can to end it or at least make Israel pay every time it goes off the rails.

  6. “Fire was opened because probably because the people on board resisted arrest likely with clubs and knives.”

    Yep, definitely the intrepid travelers attacked the Israeli navy – while they {the travelers} were sleeping.
    Quite a feat.

    see the video here:
    http://witnessgaza.com/
    of the Israeli murderers firing on the travelers as they slept.

  7. Please stop spreading lies and propaganda. Believing everything these questionable “humanitarian activists” say and automatically disregarding any claims coming from Israeli sources is not only laughable, but also pitiful. Look in the mirror.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896796,00.html

    “…Officials estimated that passengers will show slight resistance, and possibly minor violence; for that reason, the operation’s commander decided to bring the helicopter directly above the top deck. The first rope that soldiers used in order to descend down to the ship was wrested away by activists, most of them Turks, and tied to an antenna with the hopes of bringing the chopper down. However, Flotilla 13 fighters decided to carry on.

    Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.

    However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons.

    One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations. When they came down from the chopper, they kept on shouting to each other “don’t shoot, don’t shoot,” even though they sustained numerous blows…”

    1. Shai,

      If you read Richard’s actual post, you’ll discover that he calls for an investigation. This is quite different from “believing everything these. . . humanitarian activists say.” Meanwhile, are you recommending that we believe everything the IDF (an organization with a history of problematic relations with the truth) says?

      1. William,

        First of all, that is not a report by the IDF – it was written by Ron Ben-Yishai. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Ben_Yishai )

        Second, I never recommended you should believe everything the IDF says. What I would recommend is doubting the authenticy of all reports. I personally put little doubt in these reports because I served in the IDF, I know what it teaches, I know how operations are carried out, and how carefully delicate situations are handled.

        1. This Israeli crime and slaughter was committed in INTERNATIONAL WATERS!

          The ship was flying a Turkish flag and hoisted a white flag as well!

          What right do Israelis have to invade a foreign ship on International waters???

          You are trying to justify a a massacre and a crime!

          I don’t care if those people used forks and kitchen knives to DEFEND (yes, it’s considered SELF-DEFENSE!) themselves from bullies who killed 1,417 people in Gaza and are killing protesters senselessly in the West Bank and Gaza every 2nd week!

          1. Refrain from using tendentious claims. Those are just ridiculous. A death toll of 15 from exchanged fire does not exactly fall under the definition of slaughter.

            My kitchen doesn’t have clubs and guns. I must have been doing something wrong all this time.

            I agree, however, that it should not have happened on international waters. And this is indeed a legitimization for self defense.

            The question is, do you think it would’ve ended differently had the whole event taken place in Israeli waters? I highly doubt so.

          2. A death toll of 15 from exchanged fire does not exactly fall under the definition of slaughter.

            Ah yes, that must be why the UN Security Council is meeting in emergency session because yesterday’s massacre falls far short of justifying that definition. It was a minor altercation. Just another day in the life of the Jewish State, right?

            do you think it would’ve ended differently had the whole event taken place in Israeli waters?

            Sure, it could’ve ended differently had the IDF heeded to warnings & opposition of senior commanders who Sever Plotzker said argued against this madness.

          3. The point is, the second they (as in those involved in the scuffle, NOT the whole boat as many would like to put it) used violent resistance, that instantly discredited the use of nonviolent resistance as a tactic. Had they remained perfectly still, they would have definitively illustrated the brutality of the Israeli action. But they didn’t.

            The AP report straight from the Hasbara Machine frames it in a way that seems like bona-fide weapons were smuggled aboard. Knowing the principles of the ISM, I’m more inclined to believe that they were improvised weapons.

            Of course, I think this is all due to infiltration by Turkish agents, but that’s just me.

        2. Good, then if you recommend doubting all reports why not join Richard’s call for an investigation?

          1. I’m all for an investigation. Let’s just not jump to conclusions before it is carried out.

          2. “paintball rifles”. Or maybe water blasters? Anyway, these people on board had a right to … self-defence. You know that word Shai? They use it a lot in IDF.

        3. I know how operations are carried out, and how carefully delicate situations are handled.

          About as carefully & delicately as last night’s operation was carried out; and Cast Lead; and the Lebanon war. All delicate and careful operations. Pls. what do you take us for???

    2. “…paintball rifles…”

      That’s funny – because the two commandos shown on the most-widely-disseminated video (http://tinyurl.com/322pgtb) are carrying a silenced Uzi submachine gun and a short assault rifle, respectively, while most of the rest of them on other images are carrying M-16s.

      Paintball rifles indeed… I wonder how all those people were killed, in that case.

      1. Uzi is hardly in regulation in The IDF anymore, particulary not in the navy. The weapon is entirely useless if it gets wet.

        Also, the soldiers were obviously carrying guns, but (according to some publications you choose to ignore) they were not used until super friendly humanitarian activists beat them with clubs, stabbed them with knives, and OPENED FIRE.

        1. AHHH, give it up with the Hasbara already! Change the script.

          Those poo-poor soldiers, so defenseless, oh me, oh my, it makes me want to cry in my soup…….puh-leeez!

          Go peddle your propaganda to some naive fool who might believe you, although, most of the world is wise to Israel’s game today, so good luck with that……not!

          1. Surely you must’ve hit the wrong reply button? I’m not sure what this has to do with anything that I’ve said.

          2. thank you Kalea
            it is idiotic at this point in time to even respond to the spin.

        2. Do not humanitarian activists have the right to defend themselves as they see fit? Or, as the French say, that animal is savage, when attacked it fights back.

          1. I am all for an investigation. I just remind people here that the IDF has not fired on a flotilla before and I’m sure nobody wanted to provoke an international incident, particularly given Bibi’s now-canceled meeting with the President.

            So I believe it is only logical to conclude that something happened on the ship besides the simple Israel-bad, humanitarian-activists-good story that you all want to believe.

            I hope, if it comes out that the soldiers were fired upon first, you will all be courageous enough to admit that you were wrong.

          2. I’m sure nobody wanted to provoke an international incident

            Do you think that the assassin who began WWI wanted to provoke an international incident? Probably not. Likely just wanted revenge. Hardly ever do people go into such things delbiberately intending to provoke such madness. But that really has nothing to do w. actual outcomes. That’s all we’re interested in–the actual outcome, which is an unmitigated disaster.

            There is absolutely no proof other than the IDF’s word that they were fired upon.

          3. “I hope, if it comes out that the soldiers were fired upon first, you will all be courageous enough to admit that you were wrong.”

            Well, since I haven’t taken any position on who fired first, I won’t have to do that and can continue to blame Israel for an act of piracy without that little distraction.

          4. “Well, since I haven’t taken any position on who fired first, I won’t have to do that and can continue to blame Israel for an act of piracy without that little distraction.”

            Using your logic, any military response to being fired at on international waters is an act of piracy – just a little distraction.

            One could say that being several kilometers away from Israel’s waters is a little distraction. Would you not oppose the IDF’s response had it happened in Israeli waters?

            Apparently when a ‘distraction’ doesn’t follow your logic – it is perfectly fine to ignore it.

            Unlike you, I realize international waters is more than just a little distraction. I hope you realize that if indeed the IDF was fired at first, then this was no act of piracy.

            Regardless, I personally think the events that took place would not have been wholly different had they happened in Israeli waters. I do not justify acting on international waters, but looking at it this way, defines that as nothing but a little distraction.

          5. One could say that being several kilometers away from Israel’s waters is a little distraction.

            Actually, the attack took place 90-100 miles off Gaza and even in the IDF’s extended claimed territorial zone of 68 miles, that’s way beyond a few kilometers. But what’s a few kilometers among hasbarists right?

            nothing but a little distraction.

            This “little distraction” is going to get Israel in a helluva lot of hot water & possibly slapped w. the most severe UN Security Council resolution it has ever faced.

          6. Richard,

            I’m not exactly sure what you mean when you say hasbarist, could you clarify that please?

          7. I’m not Richard, but I suspect a hasbarist is a bsa – bull-shit artist – even when he (she) uses bits of factual truth, well-selected, of course.

        3. Well, then they obviously weren’t intending to get wet. If you can tell me what else the IDF uses that is that short, carries the magazine in the grip and has those protective ears on either side of the front sight, I’d be grateful.

          It’s quite funny, actually: that link that you quoted, that presumably _you_ believe, is entirely incoherent. According to that article, the commandos were only equipped with paintball guns and handguns… but the videos themselves show the commandos equipped with rifles and submachine guns. But you still place any credence in it? And one must pity those poor Israeli elite commandos, so viciously victimised by dangerous peace activists that… at least 10 of the activists end up dead, with many more wounded.

          1. And those poor peace activists sure do know how to handle a gun. And a club. And a knife.

            What would you suggest? Greeting poor little knife-carrying humanists with hugs?

            What do you know! Luckily the poor Israeli elite commandos had weapons, otherwise I’m sure at least 10 soldiers would end up dead, with many more wounded.

            Oh wait. Some of them are.

        4. There were no guns, Shai. Two IOF handguns were recovered from the boat afterward. But none of the passengers had guns. Who is spreading lies here?

          It is an international crime, since the Achille Lauro incident, for anyone to force themselves on board a ship in international waters. This is not up for interpretation; the law is very clear. The law also states that persons aboard have the right to resist the overtaking of the ship.

      2. Not to mention at the end of the IDF video it clearly shows the soldiers facing the protestors with guns in their hands. This may be the machine gun you’re referring to. This is conveniently when the video breaks off which is undoubtedly when they begin to open fire.

        1. The only thing that is indubitable is that you have your nice little story in your head and will not accept anything else as possible outcome.

    3. they kept on shouting to each other “don’t shoot, don’t shoot,” even though they sustained numerous blows

      Which explains why they ended up killing 20 of the protestors.

      If you use the terms “lies and propaganda” here again you won’t be publishing comments. You’re entitled to present your views & disagreement. But you’re not entitled to use such insulting & disparaging language. There are more lies and propaganda coming fr. the Israeli side than the other way around. Frankly, I don’t know precisely what happened. There may have been an attack on the IDF (though in the IDF video it doesn’t show what may’ve transpired before the troops rappeled down the ropes to the ship). Regardless of whether there was or not, you simply cannot justify the massacre that occured afterward. You’ll try but you can’t.

      1. Richard,

        First, 20 dead? What is your source? The most I’ve heard is 15, most sources saying 10.

        Second, pretty much everyone in this blog, including yourself, has used terms such as “lies and propaganda”, numerous times. At least try to pretend to be open to discussion.

        For you and others here, “hasbara” is now a synonym for “lies and propaganda” anyway.

        And finally, using terms such as “massacre” is just as bad, if not worse.

        1. THe number 20 has been widely reported in the media. Since Israel refuses to release the names of the dead & wounded I’ll feel justified in using this number. The death of anywhere from 9-20 people is not a “massacre?” What is it? An unfortunate incident?

    4. If you think the Israeli Navy raided the ships equipped with paintball guns, you need your head examined. That is so ludicrous so as to be not even worth discussing. I will direct you to your own ambassador to Denmark, who is quoted widely as saying that al Qaeda operatives were aboard. Now, you tell me, if that were true, would any navy go aboard with paintball guns? I’m shaking my head in disbelief at the nonsense of it.

      Equally silly is the photo the Israelis released of the “weapons” they found on the Turkish boat. Said weapons include galley knives (from the ship’s kitchen, no doubt), axe handles and sticks, and some tools, all of which are common items to be found on any boat. All of this paraphernalia was lovingly arranged atop a keffiyeh, for effect, of course.

      As the activists are released and begin speaking to the media, then a response to these nonsensical hasbara allegations will be heard. Until then, the Israelis are deliberately controlling the discourse by imposing a media blackout, not allowing the press to inspect the boats or speak to the activists in custody. These activists are also not being allowed access to legal counsel. This is the “democracy” that is Israel.

  8. One thing you have to admit is that just when you might almost believe that Israel seems possibly somewhat ready to improve maybe a little bit its moral and even legal image, it can surprise even a skeptic or two when it goes off again committing murder, spouting lies, and playing bully in and outside the hood, meanwhile sadly shaking its head while promulgating its victimhood…. And once again, will Israel’s chief protector/funder do anything more than offer its standard pro forma squeak or two? Once upon a very long time ago, I thought Zionism, with little exception, possessed in its very essence – its DNA if the term had existed some 70 and more years ago – decency and such ethics as proclaimed by Micah and cohorts. Not anymore do I so think. It’s Israel über alles, and didn’t the Bible tell us so?

  9. The CNN anchor, just a little bit ago…about 8:45 ET, reported that “after all, they’re ‘radical’ activists.” Since when are anchors supposed to make such judgements?

  10. Apparently Bibi already canceled the meeting, http://tinyurl.com/29xer4x, though I have no idea why anyone should be prejudging an event like this less than 24 hours after it happened.

    I notice how the investigation called for here places charges that members of the flotilla fired on Israeli soldiers in parenthesis, as if it’s not important.

    Why should anyone be withdrawing their ambassadors here? What FACTS have been established warranting any of this? Right now we have conflicting stories from two sides.

    There have been flotillas before. All of them eventually got their stuff through. No one has died until now.

    It is only logical to conclude that something happened here to cause the soldiers to fire.

  11. First of all, there are no words to describe this senseless, barbaric insanity.

    I feel for every one of those brave souls who tried to bring help to Gaza. If the whole world mobilized in protest against Israel, these courageous people wouldn’t have felt compelled to put their lives in peril to help rescue Palestinians from their desperation. I feel for the families of all who were slaughtered in cold blood while trying to defend themselves any way they could and their precious humanitarian cargo from a band of lunatics on the war path who are the henchmen of a pariah state that is committing crimes every day against civilians, protesters, activists, journalists, children, you name it!

    I knew something might happen but I never expected Israel to go this far. I never expected to wake up to such brutal insanity. Israel is a country gone mad ruled by madmen and a bunch of settler thugs, while most of the rest of Israelis live in denial afflicted by apathy.

    I fear for this world if these crimes are allowed to continue unpunished before the eyes of the world. Such grave injustices will eventually bring dire consequences. Israel will drag us into something catastrophic if the world fails to reign in this pariah nation.

    1. again,
      you are exactly right.
      To speak of investigations, commissions, “let’s have a discussion about this”-
      NO- all that is irrelevant, time wasting and distraction.

      The only relevant thing is how to rein in this brutal nation, and I wish I had some hope that this would happen. Soon. Now.

      Where is justice?

      1. In short, any logical and rational response is a time waste and a distraction. All that matters is that Israel’s existence ceases. That is your idea of justice.

        1. All that matters is that Israel’s existence ceases.

          No one here has said that. If you make such a statement again your comment privileges may be revoked as this is a major violation of my comment rules (READ THEM).

  12. To the hasbarists above. Were you watching the live stream? Were you? I was, Because if you were you would have seen the commandos firing from helicopters onto the people on the deck BEFORE they boarded the boat! Israel is saying that someone snatched a gun off of one of the commandos and started shooting them. Did they reach up to grab it off of one of the commandos firing from the helicopters.

    This is PURE BULL SHIT. (Sorry Richard for the expletive)

    You need to take your BULL SHIT back to your crazy den you liars!

    1. THE IDF HAS NO AUTHORITY IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS! Israeli soldiers fired live ammunition before storming the ship!

      Everyone has the right to defend themselves against an unlawful invasion and threat to their life! Israeli soldiers are armed to the gills!

      So take your B.S. and stick it where the sun don’t shine!

  13. oh and about the fire from the helliopter. if u look at what the soldiers are carrying… Itspaint ball guns
    yea thats right. paint ball. non lethal weapon
    now what more lethal. a paintball gun or an iron bar?

    1. Baloney! Total B.S. Live ammunition was fired at the ship.

      Wow, this site is suddenly overrun with hasbara.

        1. How can you prove it’s a paintball gun? My brother does paintball and airsoft, and many of these toy weapons are indistinguishable from their real counterparts in appearance.

          Truth prevails over all, indeed.

          1. show it to your brother
            hell see that the weapon has a little thing above it. its the place where the paintball ammo is stored. not a normal magazine like a normal weapon but in a magazine over the weapon so the painball balls fall down to the gas-powered gun

            truth prevails over all , indeed

          2. If the soldiers wanted to use violence from the onset, why didn’t they use tear gas or another aggressive means? It was obvious the men swinging poles were prepared to initiate violence from the get-go.

        2. I see some people beating up some other people on a boat.

          How can you tell this really is from the scene this morning?

          How do we know it is not a Potemkin village?

          1. actually, im a hobbit and im writing from hobbiton using my iHobbit laptop

            how can u tell im not?

          2. Well…

            Interesting, you didn’t consider denial of the Anti-Israeli information (the casualties, the so called “massacre”)…

            Well, you can compare the film to other pictures of the ship Navi Marmara (you will find many).
            The Helicopter is definately an Israeli Yasur (sikorski)
            The soldiers coming from the helicopters are wearing black uniform and gear (look for other photos of flotillie 13 on the web). you can even see the “peace activists” remove the gear from a soldier as they throw him down to the lower deck.

            So, unless you say a really wide conspiracy took place, these pictures are authentic (although clearely edited with cut-paste).

            The links to the films:
            English: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&has_verified=1
            Hebrew (with recordings of the soldiers speaking on their communications): http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/114/423.html?hp=1&loc=4&tmp=6459

            and another film (“peace activists” throwing molotov coktaiks and stun grenades): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2duPV9MQIc

            and another one of soldiers stabbed and beaten: http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/114/294.html

            If these are turkish and palestinian peace activists, imagine how their militants are!!

          3. Can you tell me why Israel is not releasing any of the video footage shot by passengers on the ships? Why is this edited (by yr own admission) video material the only material we are seeing & why should we believe the IDF, which is known to lie through its teeth for its own interests & advantage, as the only source of footage for this incident. Why should I trust any piece of editing footage the IDF releases? Why doesn’t the IDF release unedited footage?

        3. I cannot tell whether you are or are not a hobbit.

          neither can anyone tell this clip is or is not from this morning’s scene.

          we cannot tell where it was shot or when it was shot, just i can not tell if you are writing from hobbistan.

          1. omg! youre right!!!
            and i cant tell wether or no there is or isnt an independent and free palestinian state!
            SO! maybe there already IS! gaza is free! maybe!!!
            huraa!

            problem solved

        4. Not so fast young man. Let’s look at this in more detail.

          So, we have a video clip that purports to be genuine and makes certain claims. now what if someone was not to trust that source? especially as the video is not very clear and doesn’t tell us much (and in a court of law wouldn’t be worth diddly squat). can we verify whether or not the video clip is genuine by consulting other sources to form a qualified opinion? no, there is no second source confirming the video is genuine.

          As for Gaza and whether it is free or not. You say it could be free for all you know. Do you have only one source saying that it is free? No. Do you have at least one source saying it is not free? Yes. If you were not to trust this source, could you go and consult other sources?

          Absolutely, an almost endless number of sources even. If you were not to trust any of these, just drive down and spend a day at the port in Gaza city and see for yourself and you will see it’s not free.

          1. Why would there be a second source? Everyone is out there to demonize Israel. Especially the crews on the ships. Even if they did have evidence, they would never release it. And when Israeli sources are instantly discredited, there is nothing else that can convince people of the truth.

            Israel’s hasbara is terrible, and I was pleasantly surprised to find out the IDF had actually taken pictures and shot videos of the entire event. I was convinced people would finally see the truth. I wish we every IDF soldier had a mounted camera during Cast Lead. It is very saddening that this is what the conflict has gotten to – media warfare, but we have finally started to pick up our pace.

            I jokingly told my friends people would discredit the videos and say the IDF is using its best animators to fake them.

            Never did I realize it would actually happen.

          2. Even if they did have evidence, they would never release it.

            Oh, you mean all that evidence held by the ship’s passengers who are now, along with their evidence, in Israeli custody?

            It is very saddening that this is what the conflict has gotten to – media warfare

            No, actually there is real warfare & civilians get killed as they did yesterday. The media warfare is entirely on the IDF’s part & comes after the killing & is used to justify or deflect criticism.

          3. Of course the media warfare is entirely on the IDF’s part. Nobody asks “peace activists” for explanations – it is assumed by everyone that they are innocent.

            The IDF is the only military in the world that needs to equip its soldiers with cameras, so it could justify its actions to the rest of the world.

            But when the rest of world, like you, choose to take even video footage with a grain of salt, there is not much else Israel can do.

          4. Nobody asks “peace activists” for explanations – it is assumed by everyone that they are innocent.

            Actually, the international media would love to ask precisely those questions to the victims. But Israel is holding them in violation of international law incommunicado & forbidding press contact. Would you contact the IDF & demand that the eyewitnesses be questioned as harshly as you would like as long as they can speak & present their view?? I’d support that. Would you?

            The IDF is the only military in the world that needs to equip its soldiers with cameras,

            That is ludicrous. Most militaries and police forces in the world use cameras in various settings for precisely the same reason Israel does.

            I’m not taking the footage w. a grain of salt. I’m demanding independent proof & corroboration which any sober observer or analyst would.

          5. Stop playing the eternal victim of the world. The IDF is not the ‘only military in the world’ that equips its soldiers with cameras to justify its actions. The Dutch military, to name just one, does exactly the same so it can brag about how wonderful it is.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElGPCfjwPv4

        5. You are certainly picking up your pace, that’s for sure.

          Generally it is advisable to be cautious when any military force engages in media campaigns – it could be designed to primarily serve their own strategic needs. The US military during the first Gulf war released plenty of press statements that were relayed on CNN with information about phony troop movements that were designed to confuse the Iraqi regime. Communist regimes released information about weapons they did not have just to bluff the West. The East German military made endless press releases every time someone was shot trying to jump over the wall and they were all designed to conceal the truth. Hence, caution is advised at all times.

          This one particular video clip we are talking about here only by itself would not be worth much in a court of law. It would have to be presented alongside other items of evidence. That’s all I am saying.

          The investigation Richard is calling for will hopefully materialise and then the IDF and the folks on the boats can both make their case. Then it’s up to the judges to decide.

          1. Thank you for being the voice of reason amidst a sea of hatred-filled commenters. It saddens me as an Israeli, and as a human being to see so many people who genuinely think my people want nothing but to harm others.

          2. I appreciate your remark Shai. I absolutely do not think that the Israeli people want nothing but to harm others.
            Most human beings do not want to harm others. What I am worried about though is the leadership. By that I mean politicians and leaders in general, anywhere.

            There have been occasions in the past where leaders thought a few dead bodies is a good idea, for example to further their own political agenda. Tianamen square comes to mind. And yes, Sabra and Shatila do to.

            Again, I am not suggesting this is the case here, I am just saying that we need to have a full investigation to find out and let the judges decide.

    2. Not according to Scott MacEachern, who I trust far more than a mere claim by the IDF that this is what their soldiers were carrying. Pls don’t assert something as if it is true when it is a mere claim of the IDF which has an abysmal record when it comes to telling the truth esp when caught w. its pants down as it was last night. That annoys me.

  14. There can be no doubt that this is not the outcome Israel aimed for, as this is an absolute publicity disaster. There are many things to wonder about, apart from the decision to attack at all. (Which is unfortunately typical of the testosterone poisoning Israel seems to suffer from in general.)

    Why attack in international territory?
    (Are the waters off the Gaza coast Israeli territory according to international law? Surely not? So perhaps Israel reasoned that any attack would have been in international waters anyway, so it would be better to do it early, while it was still dark, as this would mean less photogenic media coverage?)

    Resistance was to be expected, as this is legal in international waters, so why the bad preparation?
    (Casualties = bad preparation.)

    Finally, even though resistance was no doubt legal, I personally would not have expected the defenders to use much more that fists, stick and stones. So what does the picture that I have seen of a man with big threatening knife mean?
    (It was probably not taken during the attack, as it is clear, steady and in focus, which the images of the attack are not, but still.)

  15. The IDF seems to have mistaken Turkey for a minor power.

    If the boarding action is illegal, it is legal to resist it. For example, the Chinese sailors who, last year, threw petrol bombs at Somali pirates, were exercising their individual and several right of self-defence as guaranteed under the UN charter. It is also legal to disarm, armed illegal boarders and pushing them off the ship, or attempting to, comes within the accepted definition of repelling boarders.

    A British or American merchant ship would have sluiced the IDF off with high pressure hoses, and possibly scrambled their brains with an LRAD and this would all have been legal.

    Since the vessels were:
    in international waters (reportedly by some 70nm).
    properly registered, identified and flagged.
    -and navigating safely, not posing either an accidental or deliberate hazard to other shipping, then the boarding action was indeed illegal.

  16. the boarding was not illegal since the were
    on their way to a war zone , as they stated themselves
    denied inspection of the cargo

      1. 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

        (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

        (b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;

        (c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;

        (d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;

        (e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or

        (f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

        […]

        art IV : Methods and means of warfare at sea

        Section II : Methods of warfare

        Blockade

        102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:

        (a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or

        (b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

        103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:

        (a) the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted; and

        (b) the condition that the distribution of such supplies shall be made under the local supervision of a Protecting Power or a humanitarian organization which offers guarantees of impartiality, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross

        [Originally taken from one of the comments of this post:
        http://www.hahem.co.il/friendsofgeorge/?p=1540#comments

        ]

        1. From these clauses, it can be claimed that both the blockade and the interception of the ships are illegal.

          I suppose the “Hasbara” can try and dispute that, but that’s their job, to provide half truths…

        2. Thank you so much for this rebuttal. I was getting sick & tired of what was clearly tendentious & selective quotations fr. international law which flattered Israeli’s position while taking things completely out of context.

      2. [comment deleted per comment rules–READ THEM!!!]

        Comments may not repeat almost verbatim previous arguments. They must be the original thoughts of the commenter and not long quotations from external sources. Finally, if you want to engage in grandstanding, hasbara, point-scoring and the like–you’re welcome to go elsewhere.

      3. when you find the laws that you believe say israel cannot youll find they actually say it can
        if u want to post them be my guest (richards actually)
        untill then, all clames that israel did not have the right are void

          1. The laws are a bit complicated. but they are the ultimate proof.
            in short – It’s legal to board a civilian neutral ship in international waters if you have evidence it intends to breach a naval blockade.

          2. That’s bullshit. Israel cannot unilaterally declare a blockade. There are provisions for establishing one & those provisions are not applicable in the case of Gaza. There is no formal state of war bet. Israel & Gaza. Stop the hasbara crap. It’s annoying me.

    1. A civilian ship which was carrying humanitarian aid cannot be stopped in international waters and attacked. Period.

  17. History is quickly forgotten, as was noted here
    Many of the most democratic countries in the world have enforced naval blockades against their enemies outside their waters:
    Britain against germany in WWII.
    US against Cuba during the Cuban missile crisis.

    In all those cases the blockade was enforced at high seas, and anyone who’d refuse to obey would be SUNK. sad but true.

  18. What I don’t understand is why Israel tried to board the ships at all. They simply could have dropped a frogman in the water to disable the propellers and/or rudder with a small explosive. Then they could have towed the ship anywhere they wanted. It seems to me that, in typical Israeol macho fashion, they wanted an armed assault to teach “them” a lesson and teach “them” who is boss.

  19. Now that this criminal farce has occurred, shouldn’t Netanyahu be wearing a patch on one eye and a parrot on his shoulder, unless the shekel stops elsewhere?

  20. I, along with Aluf Benn and many others, support all calls for an investigation here, and I believe the Israelis will conduct one, maybe leading to some kind of change in Gaza policy. My feeling is the same as before; I believe there is truth in the Israeli account; I think the commandos went expecting passive resistance and fired paintballs to control the crowd, and I believe they were attacked and that their weapons were stolen. I do not think it is logical from a military or political point of view that the Israelis would simply start firing. The videos make clear enough that the people on the ship were not benign peace activists.

    For me, the mistake was sending the commandos in the first place, because the act of sending them alone provided the flotilla with the image they wanted, and because it was just overkill. Many MPs in the government seem to have understood that.

    Again, I find myself disagreeing with almost everyone; I think the left-wingers have been much too quick to defend the actions of people on the boat and accept Greta Berlin’s story and the right-wingers, of course, who tell me that this will have a deterrent effect and the they only regret that Israel did not kill more “jihadists.” The right-wingers are wrong on policy; this is big PR victory that will encourage more flotillas (and obviously Israel should have done this without killing anyone) and the left-wingers unfortunately are not willing to accept that Greta Berlin is as much a political actor as anyone else here, with the same motive to spin the story to her advantage. I hold out hope that the people condemning the use of violence by the Israelis will condemn the use of violence by humanitarian activists. It is a very big problem that it happened. Humanitarian activists cannot afford to behave that way, particularly in a conflict where the difference between civilian and combatant is so unclear.

    As the translation of Aluf Benn’s piece says, policymakers “failed the test of results.” It’s a phrase I’d love to see used more often as a counter to ideology-based policymaking. “Your policy has failed the test of results.” That used to be enough to dissolve the government and get new elections in Israel. Not true anymore, it seems.

    1. I believe the Israelis will conduct one, maybe leading to some kind of change in Gaza policy.

      Yeah, just like that robust investigation of Cast Lead which Goldstone demanded. Change of policy? Sure, the next time commandos will land & open fire w/o even waiting to see what their reception will be.

      I do not think it is logical from a military or political point of view that the Israelis would simply start firing.

      How little you know about the behavior of the IDF if you look for or expect logic in its tactics. The idea that the IDF would enter a potentially dangerous situation with paint ball guns beggars belief. This is simply not the IDF I know & it’s not a credible statement fr. you or the IDF. Besides, you have a commenter in this thread who served in the military, is a professor at a New England college telling you the guns on the video were standard issue lethal IDF weapons & not paint ball guns. Who do you believe? Scott MacEachern or the IDF’s lyin’ eyes?

  21. @mary: You don’t have to believe me that they went in with non-lethal weapons. Gideon Levy says the same thing:

    “All the evidences are very clear. They came there hardly with weapons. They really were expecting – in a very stupid way – that they will get into their ships and will be welcomed with coffee and cake.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/01/2915586.htm?section=world

    @richard: I have not seen the 20-dead figure widely reported (I’ve seen it once or twice), and I have been checking updated news feeds pretty much since this happened. Most reports say at least 9, and yesterday CNN was reporting up to 15. But I agree with you that in the context of the arguments here, whether it is 9 or 15 or 20 does not matter.

    I did call into an information session cum press conference that Mark Regev, spokesman for the Prime Minister’s Office, held this afternoon through The Israel Project (journalists were included in the callers) and he says that the boats were docked at Ashdod and that the activists are being held in immigration detention and they are trying to figure out who wants to go home and who wants to fight deportation, which entails a legal process. I’m sure you’ll hear from them sooner or later. I could tell you exactly what they’ll say too, but why should I destroy the suspense with cynicism?

    If the authorities are holding them incommunicado for the purpose of silencing them, it’s about as effective as the gag orders, because one of those who went home already gave his account to the Guardian, and I imagine any one of the others who went home can do the same.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-aid-flotilla-henning-mankell

    So far most of them are fighting deportation, because apparently only about 50 chose to go home. According to Regev, if they accept deportation now, the Israelis are paying for the repatriation.

    Regev also claims that Egypt offered the flotilla the option of docking at El-Arish and having the supplies transferred through the Egyptian border, and that they apparently declined. I had not heard that until now.

    1. If the authorities are holding them incommunicado for the purpose of silencing them

      The Israelis are holding their own prisoners incommunicado & depriving them of access to counsel in violation of international law. Why they would do so I have no idea. But that’s what they’re doing. Even the BBC reporter outside the prison where they’re being held says none of the reporters waiting outside can understand what Israel is doing & why.

      The Flotilla organizers don’t recognize the seige nor do I. Of course they refused to give their supplies to Israel or Egypt because the siege is illegal, immoral and fr. a pragmatic pt of view useless. Why should they have cooperated with the very powers who are conducting this stupid policy??

  22. I am sure that justice will come upon to those have made all these horrible things, but I think that someone has to bring a solution. Its pity to see in news people with no hands, legs, mother, father.
    hope 4 a solution

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