67 thoughts on “Shin Bet Removes Gag, Makhoul and Said Accused of Spying – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. I believe some of your accusations are quite far-fetched. While I’m very suspicious of the secret service, we’ll live to see. For example, you’re claiming the authorities forcing leaving prohibition is nefarious, while it’s my guess that not banning it and “forcing” them, like Bshara, to exile would have been met with equal criticism (damn if you do, damn if you don’t).

    By the way, at least one factual error: “In this case represented by the same judge with extensive prosecutorial experience working for the Shin Bet herself, who banned Anat Kamm”. That judge was a military lawyer, not working for secret service.

    1. Yes, you are right. She never worked directly for the Shin Bet, but was a Lt. Col. in the military prosecutor’s office. She is a cog in the military-intelligence apparatus nevertheless.

  2. richard,

    if your host doesnt know if you did or did not experience a dos, i suggest that you get a new host…they have terrible security

    as for whether israel is a democracy or not…as you reside in a country that renditions people, keeps people at gitmo without charge and still puts people to death based on circumstantial evidence….i would say yes, israel is a great democracy.

    btw, why arent you reporting on the demonstration for ameer that took place tonite?

    is it because it went off without incident and not as many showed up as expected?

    the only problem i have is if it is true that either makoul or said have been denied their right to counsel

    as for the israeli military keeping up the procedure of gag orders…in the age of the internet, it is rather absurd

    1. My host is the best host I’ve ever had & frankly if it was a choice bet. yr judgment or theirs I’d prefer to rely on theirs.

      THe diff. bet. Israel & the U.S. is that we have a Constitution & Israel doesn’t, so isn’t not only isn’t a “great democracy,” it isn’t a democracy. Any infraction against democracy you can discover against the U.S. I’ll 10 or more to attribute to Israel. You know nothing of democracy if you make the claims you do.

      I warned you about snark. I have a very itchy finger as far as you’re concerned. The ban button is only a millimeter a way as far as you’re concerned.

      the only problem i have is if it is true that either makoul or said have been denied their right to counsel

      What’s really fraudulent about you is statements like this. The Shin Bet itself said Makhoul would be denied counsel & yet you state “if” he was denied counsel…

      1. Richard, this should in no way be interpreted as taking sides with “uncle joe mccarthy”, but I would think twice about using the argument that the US has a constitution when comparing the US to Israel. Yes, we have one, but what good has it served us lately? This and the previous administrations have done a good job of ignoring it regarding policies such as human rights, targeted assassinations, etc. and etcetera. The skewered Supreme Court notwithstanding.

      2. richard,

        i said if, because the reports that came out before the gag order was partially lifted, were not verified and much of what was being reported, such as the reason for the arrest were assumption…if it is confirmed that he has been denied counsel, that is very troubling.

        as for my concern over your current host, i have been in the tech field for 15 years. i have seen dos first hand, and i dont tell a customer it could or it may not be. if i dont know, and dont have a fix…im fired.

        im glad you are happy with them, but they really should know if you were a victim of an attack, and it really shouldnt have taken 12 hours for them to work out a fix.

        and in regards to a democracy needing a constitution to truly be considered a democracy, i really dont think that is one of the requirements. it is of course nice to have, but democracies can and do exist without a constitution.

        and as you know, although israel does not have a constitution, it does have set of texts which have been deemed constitutional by the israeli supreme court.

        sorry about the comment in regards to the demonstration, but by the turnout, it does seem that the removal of the gag order and a partial description of the charges were enough to decrease much of the anger in the community.

        1. the reports that came out before the gag order was partially lifted, were not verified

          What you mean to say is they were not verified by a source you believed or trusted. So the fact that Makhoul’s wife said in an Israeli online news report that he was denied access to his attorney was “not verified.” But to any other reasonable person this would be verification enough.

          Hey, if you’re an expert, tell me a better host. I like Hostgator & have had no down time. But if there’s a better host out there I’d like to know.

          BTW, they didn’t have a fix. They told me what they thought the problems might be & suggested plugins to install. It was pretty much my responsibility to fix the installation myself since they told me it was likley a script running on my index.php page. For all I know, it could’ve been a dB or plugin issue. But in all the years I’ve had my blog, I’ve had lots of technical glitches & complications, but never one like this, which is what led to question whether it could’ve been externally generated.

          democracies can and do exist without a constitution.

          Not Israel though. A constitution is critical for Israel to be a real democracy because of the peculiarities of its ethnic composition. I don’t care what the supreme court says is constititutional or not. The IDF ignores the court whenever it wishes. There are no checks & balances, no separation of powers. The court is toothless much of the time I’m sorry to say. I wish it were otherwise.

          it does seem that the removal of the gag order and a partial description of the charges were enough to decrease much of the anger in the community.

          You don’t have a clue what the Palestinian community is feeling about this in Israel. Not a clue. If you think the anger has dissipated you’re way out in the ether.

          1. richard,

            as one who has spent alot of time on the net, you must be aware that the net is filled with unconfirmed rumors

            if you are happy with your hosting company…cool

            if this is the first time you have had problems…dont change

            i didnt see it as a dos attack, because i was able to get to the website, but not see the commenting section, which is controlled by wordpress, and i know that they can be pretty glitchy sometimes

            i may not have a clue what the arab israeli community is feeling right now, but by the looks of the size of the crowd, they arent as outraged as many have been led to believe.

  3. “What is this country? Do we recognize it any longer? It isn’t Israel as we thought we knew it? What is it? The State of Judea perhaps, a settler paradise?”

    Those are important and relevant questions, but I have a question for you: Would you feel secure living in Israel and maintaining this blog? Who says they’re not combing your site with a magnifying glass looking for excuses to shut you down and waiting for you next visit?

    They can trump up charges for an Arab-Israeli, he’s a 2nd class citizen, but who says they can’t take it further and expand or improvise on laws regarding treason or what they consider treason?

    Just imagine a Palestinian child walking home one day gets picked up by the IDF just for kicks because the soldiers are bored and they slap this child around and charges are trumped up so they can justify their behavior. Imagine how terrified he feels? Imagine his parents panicking, wondering where he is until they’re summoned to an Israeli kangaroo court, or he’s sent home a few days later “somewhat” battered and bruised? Thousands of Palestinian children have suffered either psychological or physical trauma at the hands of the IDF throughout the years. It’s scary enough for an adult to be abducted and detained on trumped up charges, but this has happened to children too.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/our-reign-of-terror-by-the-israeli-army-811769.html

    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/03/09-7

    “”We caught a five-year-old…can’t remember what he did [WHAT ON EARTH COULD A FIVE-YEAR OLD CHILD DO?]…we were taking him back to the territories or something, and the officers just picked him up, slapped him around and put him in the jeep. The kid was crying and the officer next to me said ‘don’t cry’ and started laughing at him. Finally the kid cracked a smile – and suddenly the officer gave him a punch in the stomach. Why? ‘Don’t laugh in my face’ he said.” ”

    http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3841480,00.html

    What is this country, you say? The Zionist State, of course.

    1. Who says they’re not combing your site with a magnifying glass looking for excuses to shut you down and waiting for you next visit?

      Don’t think I haven’t thought of this myself. But another blogger I know visited Israel recently & wasn’t hassled. But if I planned to visit Israel I would have an Israeli lawyer lined up just in case.

      I know of the case you mentioned of the slapped child. It is terrible.

      1. oh my god
        you never visited Israel?
        How can you write such nonsense without really visit here?
        Visit Lebanon and Gaza and examine the situation before writing a blog about it.

        Such an ignorance leads to racism.

        1. If you think Richard has never been to Israel you must be new here!

          By the way, the standard response of South Africans to criticism of their country’s racial policies in the Apartheid era used to be: “You cannot criticize our country unless you have been there yourself.”

          How convenient. We can apply that rule to everything that’s wrong in the world: I cannot be against child prostitution in Thailand, unless I have been on a holiday to Patpong myself. I cannot object to people being held without trial by the US unless I have been on a trip to Guantanamo Bay etc. etc.

          What a boost to the Israeli tourist industry it would be: You are only allowed to criticize the occupation and other immoral policies after spending a nice long holiday in the Holy Land.

          1. Elisabeth you are correct.
            Anyway, if he visited Israel, I guess he saw that everyday Palestinians fire rockets from Gaza into Israel. Why don’t he criticize that?
            I feel that he is taking one side only and not showing the whole picture. And that’s wrong.

      2. The reason I brought up the fact that even you might be under a magnifying glass and I’m sure if you are; you’re not alone in the blogosphere is because it’s important to understand the fear a person who’s arrested under the cloak of night feels when the Law offers him no protection, as anyone can find themselves in his shoes.

        Imagine how Jared Malsin felt when he arrived at Ben-Gurion airport en route to his job at the Ma’an News agency in the West Bank and suddenly he was detained, interrogated and deported back to the U.S.?

        When you realize “hey, this can happen to me”, you understand just how important the rule of law is and how our freedom is diminished without it and how important this struggle for justice really is. The fact that the injustice has spilled over to affect Israeli citizens makes us understand better just how much Palestinians have suffered all these years.

        It’s sad really, that Israel makes people choose between their loyalty to justice, equality and the rule of law and their loyalty to the state.

        I believe that we must be loyal to our humanity first and foremost and all else (state, religion etc.) is secondary, and if our loyalty to something or someone robs us of our humanity then we have truly lost our way.

    2. And here’s something in favour of the Zionist state. From the same article you quoted:

      “The maltreatment of civilians under occupation is common to many armies in the world – including Britain’s, from Northern Ireland to Iraq.

      But, paradoxically, few if any countries apart from Israel have an NGO like Breaking the Silence, which seeks – through the experiences of the soldiers themselves – as its website puts it “to force Israeli society to address the reality which it created” in the occupied territories.”

      1. The maltreatment of civilians under occupation is common to many armies in the world

        That’s true, but in which moral parallel universe is that “in favour of the Zionist state”? If I commit a crime, will it be in my favour that there are other criminals?

        As for inter-community groups (whether technically NGOs or not) in other countries, here are a random few, all from Northern Ireland:
        http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Getting-Past-the-Troubles.html?c=y
        http://www.swarthmore.edu/x20620.xml (TOVA Theatre)
        http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19971222&slug=2579492

        It goes without saying there are more, Google is your friend.

        From the latter:

        Part of the peacemakers’ success is that they understand something that treaty-makers sometimes forget: The battle is about more than power or jobs or land. It’s also about identity, pride and history.

        That can’t be said often enough.

        1. The “favour” is the fact that there are enough people with conscience, motivation, and yes, freedom, to bring it out in the open and work to make the future better.

  4. I agree that the charges MAY be trumped up and this MAY be a case of political persecution. But your assertions are no better backed up than the ones you decry in rags like the JP. These two MAY have had contacts with Hezbolla and they MAY have been asisting them.
    What we need to do is focus on ensuring the course of justice by fighting things like the gag order or administrative arrests and helping make sure that the investigation and trial (if necessary) are fair.
    Retorting with equally unfounded allegations doesn’t really help.

    1. What you’re entirely ignoring is the Shin Bet’s history of trumped up charges against political activists esp. Palestinian citizens. What were the charges against Bishara? What did they amount to? Nothing. It was all allegations and rumors leaked by anonymous secret police sources. Nothing concrete. Nothing proven. What has been the relation bet. the security services & the Palestinian community since the founding of the State? A long series of grievous injustices.

      1. Why don’t you write about Hamas who execute their own people without a trail ?
        Or Iran killing citizens on the street just because they protest?

        Oh I forgot, you are a racist and hate Israel.

        1. I take it then, menash, that you have visited both Gaza and Iran?

          Otherwise, as you said, “How can you write such nonsense without really” visiting there?… “Such an ignorance leads to racism. ” I guess your rules don’t have to apply to yourself.

          Racist hypocrite.

          1. I visited Gaza, yes!
            If I want to enter Iran, I will probably be arrested or killed.
            Why don’t he write about it? Or about Arab leaders that want to eliminate the state of Israel?
            I guess he probably support it.

        2. “Oh I forgot, you are a racist and hate Israel.”

          This statement is ludicrous.

          Your whole comment demonstrates that you understand nothing.

          Paranoia breeds mistrust; it’s happening with Hamas, in Iran and in Israel and Israel is to blame for the other two. Fatah collaborated with the U.S. and Israel to stage a violent coup in Gaza. Hamas members were kidnapped, tortured and killed by Fatah and this led to violent retaliation. It wasn’t the first time however that Israel tried to provoke division between Hamas and Fatah. Israeli authorities tacitly supported Hamas in its inception to use against Fatah years ago.

          In Iran, it’s a know fact that Mossad assassinated scientists and meddled in Iranian politics both in the present and in the past when the Shah was put in power.

          Therefore Iran too is demonstrating paranoid behavior towards citizens it suspects might be collaborating with foreign powers.

          Israel is the state in the region which is supposed to be a democracy and an example to the rest of the region. Instead it is no more than a destabilizing force creating a cycle of non-ending violence.

          The fact is, Israel is not really a Democracy. Holding an entire nation of people hostage under an unjust and oppressive rule is not Democracy and will lead only to non-ending tragedy.

          1. Kalea,

            You are totally wrong.

            Iran leaders wants to erase Israel from the map and not otherwise.

            Fatah people were kidnapped and murdered in Gaza and not the opposite.

            I guess you also mindwashed like a lot of other innocent people in Iran or Lebanon.

            Peace!

      2. While I had a liking to Bishara for a while, his escape made even me suspicious. He didn’t await trial – and even he knows the Israeli justice system, while somewhat skewed, is very serious and will probably not easily prosecute an innocent man without evidence (that is what I hope, at least).

  5. Richard, I don’t understand why do you automatically assume the charge is fraudulent. As for the Bishara case, you have no proof that the charges against him were fraudulent. Had he not fled the country, we might have known what the evidence were. Fact is there have been spies in Israel, both Jews and Arabs and there’s no reason to assume that the charges against Makhoul (or Bishara) are fake a priori.

    As for a previous thread of discussion about the necessity of a constitution for a democracy- Britain has no constitution either – a model which Israel follows.

    1. Yes, & the way the charges could’ve been established was for the Shin Bet either to bring him to trial or authenticate their charges. They did neither & they had a chance to do both.

      Britain has a record of 6 centuries of democracy & the Magna Carta. What does Israel have? Torture, ethnic supremacy, racism, prejudice & deep internal divisions. I’d say Israel needs a constitution. Britain has proven it doesn’t.

      1. I don’t get it – Bishara fled before trial, how is that anyone else’s fault?

        As for your (somewhat skewed) definition of Israeli democracy, to assume a constitution would magically transform everything is utter nonsense. Also , from what I read on the subject, the worst dictatorships had the most brilliant constitutions which were utterly useless. A constitution does not a democracy make.

        1. Bishara didn’t “flee.” He was driven into exile. The Shin Bet could’ve prevented him from leaving & tried him as they knew his whereabouts at all times. They chose to let him go. Why? Why not try him if he’s as guilty and dangerous as they attempted to make him out to be? Why let him go?

          to assume a constitution would magically transform everything is utter nonsense

          Those are your “skewed” words, not mine. I didn’t say a constitution would magically do anything. I merely said they are a prerequisite if there is ever to be real democracy in Israel. And in regard to yr other inane observations, I’m not talking about a constitution a la Juan Peron or the Burmese dictatorship. I’m talking about a constitution such as ones observed by western democracies.

          1. I’m talking about a constitution such as ones observed by western democracies.

            Your assumption seems to be that dictatorships have bad constitutions. Not necesserily. The key word is “observed”. Israel laws are generally not bad. If the secret service decides to frame someone (which has probably happened everywhere in many democracies) this has nothing to do with the level of democracy (their probability of succeeding with that might have, depending on other brakes and balances).

            As for the constitution being a prerequisite, I don’t think you would find this view among political scientsts.

          2. If the secret service decides to frame someone (which has probably happened everywhere in many democracies) this has nothing to do with the level of democracy

            It doesn’t???

          3. As I said, the better public supervision on such organizations (can be associated with democratic values and practices), the more likely they are to fail and the more likely they will be deterred from doing so. However that is never a down-right rule – for example you should read about the antics of the French secret service…

          4. Whether Bishara fled or was driven to exile depends on one’s initial point of view – not on any facts. Truth is, had he been a true believer in Israel (in whatever form he’d like Israel to be) he’d stay and face the music.

            If he considered himself being politically prosecuted, he should have attempted to expose false accusations in court. Instead, he took the easy way out.

            Compare with the Khodorkovsky trial in Russia. Although it was clear to many that he was being persecuted by the kremlin, he stayed to face the charges publically for all to see. He could have escaped easily to some other country like many rich people in Russia did when Putin turned the heat on.

            So much for the nobel Bishara, are true fighter for Israel’s democracy.

            As for Britain’s 6 centuries of democracy, they’ve had their own share of torture and prejudice, despite their lofty ideals.

          5. had he been a true believer in Israel (in whatever form he’d like Israel to be) he’d stay and face the music.

            If he considered himself being politically prosecuted, he should have attempted to expose false accusations in court. Instead, he took the easy way out.

            That’s bull. The onus is on the Shin Bet to prove its case not on Bishara to prove his innocence. Since the Shin Bet chose not to prosecute him & allow him to go into exile, it was their responsibility which they failed miserably in fulfilling. The state proves guilt. The accused doesn’t prove innocence. Remember how things work in a real democracy?

            Compare with the Khodorkovsky trial in Russia. Although it was clear to many that he was being persecuted by the kremlin, he stayed to face the charges publically for all to see. He could have escaped easily to some other country like many rich people in Russia did when Putin turned the heat on.

            That’s so easy for you to say. What sacrifice have you ever been asked to make? Have you ever faced 10 or 20 yrs in an Israeli jail or Siberian gulag? When you have & you can tell me you’d make the same choice the Russian oligarch made then you can talk. Till then, stop telling others what the honorable thing is to do.

            As for Britain’s 6 centuries of democracy, they’ve had their own share of torture and prejudice, despite their lofty ideals.

            I’ll take Britain’s democracy even with its bloodshed over Israel’s any day. Israel has absorbed the worst of British law through Mandatory regulations and very little of the best qualities of English law & democracy. They could profit by it.

          6. Bishara didn’t “flee.” He was driven into exile. The Shin Bet could’ve prevented him from leaving & tried him

            This is exactly the “damn if you do damn if you don’t” attitude I’ve been criticising. How was he ‘driven out’? His decisions and actions are his own; blaming the government for not assuming he would flee is not an intelligent argument.

          7. Assaf, I have always been astonished and horrified by the unbelievably harsh treatment of Mordechai Vanunu. Especially the fact that he was kept in solitary confinement for most of his prison term betrays a thirst for vengeance and cruelty that is really shocking. And what did he reveal that was so damaging to Israel’s security? Does honesty about its nuclear capacities make Israel’s arsenal less deadly? And anyway: the world already knew. Vanunu did Israel no harm, and yet he was punished until he almost lost his mind.. .
            With a horrifying example like that before you, would you take the chance if you were Bishara, and trust the justice system to treat you fairly?

          8. Assaf, I have always been astonished and horrified by the unbelievably harsh treatment of Mordechai Vanunu….With a horrifying example like that before you, would you take the chance if you were Bishara, and trust the justice system to treat you fairly?

            That is hardly a good exampleL Vaanunu was guilty (and proud of it). His problems were with the incarceration, not the legal system. What you are saying amounts to “I won’t go to trial because prison might be hard”.

          9. Guilty of what precisely? Guilty of revealing how many nuclear bombs Israel actually had? Whoa, that’s worth 18 yrs in prison isn’t it? No problems w. the legal system, eh? Once again, you’re simply distorting the truth. The legal system crucified him & set him up as an example.

            What you are saying amounts to “I won’t go to trial because prison might be hard”.

            No, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that one’s children need a father not a martyr; that one’s wife needs a partner, not a hero; that one needs a life and not martyrdom. Do you have a family? Do you have children? Do you even understand this? Would you choose this for yrself? Or yr wife? Or yr son or daughter?

          10. Guilty of what precisely? Guilty of revealing how many nuclear bombs Israel actually had? Whoa, that’s worth 18 yrs in prison isn’t it? No problems w. the legal system, eh? Once again, you’re simply distorting the truth. The legal system crucified him & set him up as an example.

            Well, yeah – revealing secret military information. You think it’s nonsense, but most countries would consider that… not really legal. The fact that you think it’s the right thing to do is not relevant.
            To repeat clearly: Is this breaking the law? Yes. Is the definition of this act as an offence significantly different in Israel than in other countries? I believe it isn’t. Was he treated very harshly? Probably, but you are against the mere notion that he was guilty of anything.

            No, that’s not what I’m saying.

            Of course it isn’t because I was answering Elizabeth.

            I’m saying that one’s children need a father not a martyr; that one’s wife needs a partner, not a hero; that one needs a life and not martyrdom. Do you have a family? Do you have children? Do you even understand this? Would you choose this for yrself? Or yr wife? Or yr son or daughter?

            That is verging on ad-hominem. Also, the “preservation of one’s life” is a two-edged sword. For example, The same argument can be said of the Israeli soldier in Gaza preferring to shoot his way indiscriminately into a building rather than risk falling to an ambush.

          11. My point is that Vanunu was guilty of something quite harmless and was nevertheless destroyed in the cruelest way. (Though you seem to feel he got just what he deserved.) Bishara could be ‘guilty’ of something as innocent as having a conversation with someone from Hamas for all we know (talking to the PLO used to be outlawed once too, so big deal) and yet have feared that he would get the Vanunu treatment. With a record of exaggeratingly cruel sentencing in the past like that, you should not be surprised if people are a bit cautious about the Israeli justice system.

          12. Not to mention that Bishara has a very serious health issue & I think had a kidney transplant. I’m guessing medical care in the Israeli prison system for political prisoners isn’t of the highest quality to say the least. Which could mean a sentence of death to him.

          13. Not to mention that Bishara has a very serious health issue & I think had a kidney transplant. I’m guessing medical care in the Israeli prison system for political prisoners isn’t of the highest quality to say the least. Which could mean a sentence of death to him.

            Yes, B’shara had a kidney donated by his brother. Actually, I’d think it would probably make his prison stay easier. The high-profile, white-collar, philosophy doctor and ex parliament member with severe health issues will be treated much better than the average inmate (especially with the political connections he has). It’s definitely not a sentence of death.

  6. That’s bull. The onus is on the Shin Bet to prove its case not on Bishara to prove his innocence.

    Well, he was under investigation and suddenly ran away. So they never bothered to get to trial (but he does look very guilty from the outside).

    It seems you would criticise them in any case. If they prevented him from going abroad while under investigation. Or if they tried him in absentia (my guess is you would say it’s an unfair witch-trial). And somehow his escape is someone else’s fault.

    Again, I get the the same feeling of damn-either-way.

    1. he was under investigation and suddenly ran away. So they never bothered to get to trial

      Look at the comment rules again. You’re repeating yrself. Do not repeat yr arguments. One time is enough. So I’ll repeat he didn’t “run away.” He went into exile. That’s a political act. The Shin Bet chose to allow him to go into exile. If they thought he was guilty the onus was on them to arrest & try him,. They didn’t. Case closed. You don’t get to say he “looks guilty” because we don’t do that in democracies, remember? He’s only guilty if he’s found guilty, otherwise he’s presumed innocent. Or did you forget that democractic value along w. so many others?

      1. So I’ll repeat he didn’t “run away.” He went into exile. That’s a political act.

        I’m repeating myself because you do not seem to address any argument. To the unsuspecting observer, what’s the difference between fleeing and “exiling onesself”?

        The Shin Bet chose to allow him to go into exile. If they thought he was guilty the onus was on them to arrest & try him,. They didn’t. Case closed.

        Case hardly closed. I’ll repeat slowly:
        a. He found out he was under investigation. The investigation did not materialize into an indictment YET. There is such a condition, you know.
        b. To limit his movements at that stage would have been considered punishment without trial, I believe you would have been the first to criticise that.
        c. Thus claiming that NOT putting him in limitation is a positive step towards pushing him to exile is quite far-fetched.
        d. Saying that he “looks guilty” is also a democratic value, the value of one person formulating and stating their opinion. Since that has no judicial meaning but a personal one, your whole speach about democracy, guilt, and innocence is flaky to pathetic.

        1. To the unsuspecting observer, what’s the difference between fleeing and “exiling onesself”?

          Fleeing indicates he left out of fear or out of a sense of guilt, which is a totally unsupported notion. I didn’t say he “exiled himself” I said he went into “involuntary exile” which is what I meant to say for reasons that should be obvious.

          To limit his movements at that stage would have been considered punishment without trial, I believe you would have been the first to criticise that.

          Absolute narischkeit. The Shin Bet did precisely that to Ameer Makhoul. They discovered he was going to travel to Jordan & slapped an order preventing him fr. doing so. Had they wished to prevent Bishara fr. leaving they would’ve done the same exact thing. They didn’t.

          Saying that he “looks guilty” is also a democratic value

          No, it isn’t a “democratic value” other than indicating you have the right to have opinions completely unsupported by fact or evidence. And I have the democratic right to point that out & make yr views look utterly unsupported, prejudiced & invalid.

  7. Richard, can you seriously compare a Siberian prison to an Israeli one? For one, many prisoners in Russian prisons never live the end of their sentence, which hardly ever happens in Israel. Just take Vaanunu or Samir Kuntar as examples.

    Vaanunu did his time, was released, healthy and sane. During Kuntar’s time in prison, he stayed healthy, managed to get married and obtain a university degree. Indeed, a Siberian gulag. Israel can hardly be accused of inhumane treatment of it’s prisoners (although I’m sure you’ll try) (Also, palestinian prisoners live happily ever after in jail)

    “That’s so easy for you to say. What sacrifice have you ever been asked to make? Have you ever faced 10 or 20 yrs in an Israeli jail or Siberian gulag? When you have & you can tell me” – this is Ad Hominem. Try harder.

    I gave an example of man doing a noble act. Bishara, being a political leader and a supporter of democratic ideals, can be held to the same standard especially knowing that the consequences for him, no matter what, are far more benign.

    I agree that the Shin Bet should prove it’s case. Than again, Bishara fled and never let the Shin Bet state it’s claims in court. So how’s the Shin Bet to blame on this one?

    Bishara’s innocence was presumed until he fled. Hebrew has a good idiom about it: “The hat burns on the thief’s head”. I think Bishara’s head has a nice little flame on it.

    1. Vaanunu did his time, was released, healthy and sane

      I think that’s highly debatable considering the extreme hysteria & punishment to which he was subjected.

      Israel can hardly be accused of inhumane treatment of it’s prisoners

      May I ask what you know of Israeli prisons & how you are such an expert at treatment of Palestinian political prisoners of which you clearly know next to nothing?

      the consequences for him, no matter what, are far more benign

      Oh, you mean to say that Bishara w. a transplanted kidney & requiring specializedd medical care would receive superlative medical care by world specialists in the Israeli prison system?

      So how’s the Shin Bet to blame on this one?

      Because it knew he intended to go into exile & allowed him to do so.

      I think Bishara’s head has a nice little flame on it.

      It’s nothing compared to the conflagration raging over Yuval Diskin’s head.

  8. Elisabeth – Vanunu’s act was definetly not “quite harmless”. He disclosed one of the most closly kept state secrets.

    “And what did he reveal that was so damaging to Israel’s security? Does honesty about its nuclear capacities make Israel’s arsenal less deadly? And anyway: the world already knew.”

    The world’s knowledge of the facts is irrelevant – many world leaders, both western and arab, are influenced by public opinion. It’s one thing when an intelligence unit secretly reports the existance of weapons, it’s entirely different when it appears on the front page of a major newspaper.

    The “nuclear ambiguity” policy has a clear purpose: have a nuke, make sure everybody knows it (not publicly!) and *avoid an arms race*.

    Vaanunu decided he knows better what’s right and what’s wrong. It’s wasn’t his decision to make, let alone smuggle state secrets to a foreign newspaper. His sentence is well deserved.

    As for his particular conditions of incarceration, I don’t know the details so I can’t really comment on this besides the obvious fact that he walked out of jail healthy and sane, after 18 years. So most likely it wasn’t so bad. You can easily look up a list of prison systems around the world where a sentence is a one way ticket, even for petty crimes.

    1. It’s one thing when an intelligence unit secretly reports the existance of weapons, it’s entirely different when it appears on the front page of a major newspaper.

      The entire world knew Israel had nuclear weapons. It wasn’t a secret before Vanunu and wasn’t a secret after. The worst that he did was quantify how many, which is hardly a world class act of treason except in Israel.

    2. I left off answering your post for a while as I found it really confused. (E.g.: “The world’s knowledge of the facts is irrelevant” followed by the “nuclear ambiguity” policy has a clear purpose: have a nuke, make sure everybody knows it (not publicly!) and *avoid an arms race*.” I have no idea how you meant to make a logical connection between these two statements.)

      But anyway; how can making sure everyone knows you have a nuclear weapon “avoid an arm’s race”? Because you do not say so ‘officially’? That just makes the world see Israel as arrogant, always demanding exceptional leeway and unwilling to behave as part of the civilized community.

      Finally: Vanunu’s motivation was that he wanted to avoid nuclear war in the Middle East, and for that purpose he brought out an already well-known truth. He did not murder, rape, rob or anything like that. You’re a pretty harsh guy if you think 19 years in jail, of which 11 in solitary is well deserved for that. But maybe you are just very young and your sense of empathy has not matured yet. According to family members and his lawyer there were periods during his incarceration in which had indeed lost his mind. That he survived and recovered after 11 years of solitary is a tribute to his enormous mental strength, not to the Israeli prison system.

      And Israel continues to harass him.

      1. I am sorry I havn’t expressed myself clearly enough. What I ment is that moderate arab regimes in the mid-east are well aware of the nuclear weapons. They are also aware of the fact that Israel has no intention to use them but in self-defence.

        However, Israel’s government chose not to reveal publicly any nukes (there’s wasn’t an Israeli nuclear test). Such a revelation (by a nuclear test) would create pressure from extremists in arab countries to find a proper response – setting off a nuclear arms race.

        It’s definelty the right of a sovereign government to decide on it’s policy and held vaanunu acountable. As for a possibly cruel treatment in jail, that’s wrong and perhaps he should be compinsated but that’s an issue entirely separete from the question of his guilt.

        A key idea here is that knowledge of nuclear weapons, when there’s no test, a huge messy explosion, is a speculation – not a fact, at least when the general public concerned.

        1. moderate arab regimes in the mid-east are well aware of the nuclear weapons. They are also aware of the fact that Israel has no intention to use them but in self-defence.

          I don’t know what a “moderate” Arab regime is. Second, your claim is founded on nothing. Actually, most Arab regimes are deeply mistrustful & frightened to death of Israel’s nuclear arsenal. SO much so that either they’re conducting nuclear research of their own or wish they could.

          Vanunu, who by your account “wanted to avoid nuclear war in the Middle East”, in fact destabilized a delicate balance and the region itself.

          Assaf, what narischkeit. Vanunu destalizied the Middle East???? You’re joking, right? Tell me you are. What nuclear weapons does he possess? The only entity that destabilizes the M.E. in this way is Israel w. its 400+ nuclear weapons. The only thing Vanunu destablized is the Shin Bet and Mossad’s equaniminty and desire to keep a tight rein on Israel’s nuclear secrets.

          1. I don’t know what a “moderate” Arab regime is.

            Well, at least in terms of relation to Israel, we have Egypt and Jordan which signed a peace agreement with Israel. There’s Morocco which hosted Israeli leaders, and Dubai and Qatar which (this is from memory only, as far as I remember) started some quiet diplomatic relations with Isarel , which were severed after the 2008 Gaza campaign. Then again there’s Syria, Lebanon, Iran (not Arab but in the region), old-time Sadam Hussein’s Iraq, etc. I can see a certain (if fine) dividing line between these.

            Vanunu, who by your account “wanted to avoid nuclear war in the Middle East”, in fact destabilized a delicate balance and the region itself.

            Assaf, what narischkeit. Vanunu destalizied the Middle East???? You’re joking, right? Tell me you are. What nuclear weapons does he possess? The only entity that destabilizes the M.E. in this way is Israel w. its 400+ nuclear weapons. The only thing Vanunu destablized is the Shin Bet and Mossad’s equaniminty and desire to keep a tight rein on Israel’s nuclear secrets.

            Your logic is that the only way to destabilize the region is to own weapons and not information. I do not think this is an intelligent argument.

            For a more detailed explanation why I think so, you can see the latest reply to Elisabeth.

      2. Well, Yakov said approximately what I wanted only much more eloquently.

        Note, that if this analysis is correct, it may be that Vanunu, who by your account “wanted to avoid nuclear war in the Middle East”, in fact destabilized a delicate balance and the region itself.

        1. Oh come off it! He “destabilized” the region 25 YEARS AGO?! And so tell me, WHAT happened as a result of it??

          And to Yakov in one post (if you don’t mind):
          I know this is a sensitive point in Israel, but I do not deny the sovereignty of the Israeli government. So you do not need to stress it. What I question is the harsh punishment meted out to Vanunu, which is a different matter.

          1. Elisabeth:You ask “WHAT happened as a result of it??”, as if nothing changed in the middle east at that time.

            Of course, it’s hard to separate the reasons to the outcomes when trying to understand history. But here’s one change that might be seen as relevant: Both Iran and Syria seriously stepped up their nuclear efforts in that time.

          2. Your argument, if I summarize correctly, is as follows: Although Israel’s possession of nuclear arms was widely known, prior to Vanunu’s actions in 1985, this was no reason for other countries in the Middle East to try to acquire nuclear weapons as well. They did not mind at all, because they trusted that Israel would never use them. Somehow, public opinion in these countries had been totally unaware of the fact that Israel had nuclear arms, until Vanunu changed all that. The headlines he made in 1985 forced Syria and Iran to pursue nuclear weapons because of public opinion.
            In other words: Israel’s actual possession of nuclear arms has nothing to do with anything; it is Vanunu who started an arm’s race, and locking him up for 18 years was therefore a well-deserved punishment.

            So I googled ‘nuclear weapons program’ together with ‘Syria’ and this is what came up:
            globalsecurity.org:
            Although Syria has long been cited as posing a nuclear proliferation risk, prior to 2007 the country seems to have been too strapped for cash to get far. Syria allegedly began a military nuclear program in 1979 (so before 1985) and had not provided the IAEA with full information on all its nuclear activities. Syria had claimed that it was interested in nuclear research for medical rather than military purposes, but Israel and the United States have opposed sales of a reactor to Syria on the grounds that it would serve as an important step toward the building of a nuclear weapon.
            On October 9, 2002, Undersecretary Bolton told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that “[w]e remain very concerned that nuclear and missile programs of Iran and others, including Syria, continue to receive the benefits of Russian technology and expertise.” The allusion to nuclear programs prompted a complaint from the Syrian Foreign Ministry, which averred that Syria has been calling for a WMD-free zone in the Middle East since 1987.
            As of July 2003, the authoritative Nuclear Threat Initiative website stated that “Overall, Syria is a country with limited nuclear resources and capabilities. Most of these are focused on research and development and the practical application of radioisotopes for use in industry. It is unclear how many nuclear facilities Syria actually has, but they all appear to be meant for the purpose of advancing the cause of nuclear science and industry in that country….. Although there are some areas of uncertainty surrounding Syria’s nuclear program, the program appears to be rudimentary at best and focused on civilian and scientific applications.”
            A 2004 study for the Swedish Defense Ministry” concluded “In regards to nuclear capacity, all available information indicates that Syria today focuses its nuclear ambitions in the civil sector. Syria does not have any military nuclear program ambitions, and the lack of economical and technical resources needed for such a program are vital arguments behind this conclusion.”
            Wikipedia:
            Syria is a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and maintains a civil nuclear program. On September 6, 2007, Israel unilaterally bombed a site in Syria which it believed had hosted a nuclear reactor under construction. U.S. intelligence officials claimed low confidence that the site was meant for weapons development.

            As far as I can see, there is not much proof of a nuclear program. But more to the point: There is no connection with Vanunu. Can you do better?

          3. Elisabeth,

            Your argument, if I summarize correctly, is as follows: Although Israel’s possession of nuclear arms was widely known, prior to Vanunu’s actions in 1985, this was no reason for other countries in the Middle East to try to acquire nuclear weapons as well. They did not mind at all, because they trusted that Israel would never use them. Somehow, public opinion in these countries had been totally unaware of the fact that Israel had nuclear arms, until Vanunu changed all that. The headlines he made in 1985 forced Syria and Iran to pursue nuclear weapons because of public opinion.
            In other words: Israel’s actual possession of nuclear arms has nothing to do with anything; it is Vanunu who started an arm’s race, and locking him up for 18 years was therefore a well-deserved punishment.

            Actually, you do not summarize it correctly. Your logic seems to be static black-and-white, with no regard to dynamics and balances.

            The point is not that they’re happy with the situation. Or that they did not have any reason to react, or that Israel’s weapons have nothing to do with anything.
            But the other Arab regimes probably deduced that there is no immediate danger and the situation is stable enough , while the alternatives are not better. They would like not to be pressured into action by public opinion, and the fact that the weapons are a known secret but still not official is a good excuse to do nothihg (or at least revert to only diplomatic measures). In terms more familiar to you, this is similar to “plausible deniability”.

            An upfront exposure would force the Arab leaders to react in ways they wish to avoid (for internal reasons as well as not to damage their outside profile and seem weak) and might spiral into a full-on nuclear arms race. The more accurate and trustworthy the exposure, the more likely it is to trigger a new dynamic. That is why Israel insists on continuing its nuclear ambiguity (researcher Avner Cohen, probably the leading expert on the history of Israel’s nuclear program, prefers to call it “nuclear opacity”).

            So I googled ‘nuclear weapons program’ together with ‘Syria’ and this is what came up:
            globalsecurity.org:
            Although Syria has long been cited as posing a nuclear proliferation risk, prior to 2007 the country seems to have been too strapped for cash to get far. Syria allegedly began a military nuclear program in 1979 (so before 1985) and had not provided the IAEA with full information on all its nuclear activities. Syria had claimed that it was interested in nuclear research for medical rather than military purposes, but Israel and the United States have opposed sales of a reactor to Syria on the grounds that it would serve as an important step toward the building of a nuclear weapon.

            Syria is a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and maintains a civil nuclear program. On September 6, 2007, Israel unilaterally bombed a site in Syria which it believed had hosted a nuclear reactor under construction. U.S. intelligence officials claimed low confidence that the site was meant for weapons development.

            Funny, I googled the same things and got to this site:
            http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/syria/nuke.htm

            The last paragraph you quoted is not there. Instead there is a long paragraph on 2007 citing many sources that believe the site was an unreported military nuclear reactor. If you look , not too hard, you can find many more reports, for example this one:

            http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Syria/Nuclear/index.html
            However, the June 2008 visit ultimately raised as many questions as it answered. In November 2008, the IAEA Board of Governors sent letters to both Israel and Syria requesting more information on Al-Kibar.[33] The agency also asked Syria for access to additional sites, which Syria had refused during the June 2008 inspection. Syria’s February 2009 response reiterated that Al-Kibar had been a military site, and did not permit additional inspections access. That same month the IAEA released a second report on Al-Kibar that did not produce new information about the site’s infrastructure, but revealed that environmental samples had yielded additional traces of anthropogenic (or manmade) uranium and rejected Syrian claims that the uranium derived from dropped Israeli munitions.[34] The February 2009 report states, “there is low probability that the uranium was introduced by the use of missiles,” and it further indicates that the uranium particles were not of a type found in Syria’s declared inventory.[35] Again on 5 June 2009, the IAEA reported that its inspections had revealed the presence of undeclared anthropogenic uranium particles, this time from a hot cell facility at the SRR-1 research reactor in Damascus.[36]

            I cannot say this has anything to do with Vaanunu or not. I’m just saying that if your argument is “see? nothing happened”, then the obvious reply is “things did happen”. Now you ask me to prove that is the reason they happened.
            I would also like to point out that “Nothing happened” may convince you, but it can also be, at least theoretically, that the powers that be managed to contain the crisis quietly. This reminds me of people saying that we didn’t need to panic and vaccinate everyone for an upcoming disease, because an outbreak didn’t happen. What if it didn’t happen *because* we prepared? Just a thought.

            Final note: This is a very frustrating situation to analyze and debate. It’s hard to “prove” anything in this field of international policy, with its unique blending of internal and external interests and parties, perception and reality. Not to mention the twisted, multi-staged, counter-intuitive internal logic (think Vizzini in “princess bride”…) . Specifically without access to protocols and direct evidence, much of what’s said even by experts is just educated guesswork.

          4. You claimed earlier that both Syria and Iran ‘seriously’ stepped up their nuclear efforts at the time. You should not be indignant then, that I asked you to back up this claim, but you seem to be.
            At least you admit: “I cannot say this (referring to events more than 20 years later) has anything to do with Vaanunu or not”.
            There IS no ‘plausible deniability’ when the denial is not plausible in the first place, because Israel WANTS the world to know it has nuclear arms as you yourself admitted.
            I am ending this discussion as I am tired of going round in circles like this.

          5. You claimed earlier that both Syria and Iran ’seriously’ stepped up their nuclear efforts at the time. You should not be indignant then, that I asked you to back up this claim, but you seem to be.

            You are correct, because of an editing error from my part. It was supposed to say “since that time”. I was saying the events of 1985 may have been a contributing factor to long and quiet processes.

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