A few of my Israeli friends have sent me a link to a Yediot interview with Judge Einat Ron, who I disparagingly call the “Shin Bet judge” in my post title, even though she formally isn’t. She’s a real judge who might just as well work directly for the Shin Bet since, as with all Israeli courts, she is at the beck and call of the security services. If they want a gag order they get one. If they’re ready to remove it, it will be removed. I don’t think I’ve ever, except in the relatively rare case of the Supreme Court, heard of a lower court judge actually bucking the Shin Bet and acting independently.
In any case, I had a feeling that was alternately strange and gratifying when the judge, who I’ve criticized harshly for the similar role she played in the Anat Kamm case and coaching the IDF to wiggle out of culpability in the wanton killing of an 11-year old Palestinian boy, seemingly addressed me indirectly in her interview. She was asked about approving gag orders and whether she factors into her decisions the coverage that such orders receive in foreign media (a story in Ynet yesterday credited Tikun Olam with playing a leading role in breaking the story outside Israel):
Judge Ron, who restricted her gag order regarding the latest spying case at whose center stand Ameer Makhoul and Omer Said, explained that she isn’t influenced by foreign publications, but that gag orders are judged in a matter-of-fact manner…She enumerated [one reason for gag orders] “a pronounced fear regarding potential damage to the security of the State.”
She also commented on the fact that the case has been covered abroad, as Ynet reported yesterday, “As sometimes happens with in such situations there can be repercussions since gag order have no effect outside Israel. The repercussions of this case were felt in foreign sources and publications outside Israel. The reasons for approving, limiting or lifting a gag order do not take foreign media into account. However, it is known that with technological innovations you cannot prevent such publications.
Along with this, the judge pointed out that foreign news coverage “doesn’t justify creating a situation in which no gag orders are issued at all, since there remains considerable fear of harming the state’s security and harming an investigation…” if gag orders did not exist.
To which I say, spoken like a true lawyer. An excess of verbiage and a deficit of sense. This is clearly an intelligent lawyer in service of a deformed system. And she’s whistling in the wind. Clearly, a judge would have to deny that media coverage plays any role in her decisions. But it does. And even if it doesn’t, Ron’s decisions are guided by the ‘seen hand’ of the Shin Bet, and the security agency is clearly influenced by external factors like media coverage. Not to mention the outrage against this campaign from the Israeli Palestinian community, which clearly played a factor in partially lifting the gag today.
Earlier today, Ynet reported that 300 protestors gathered in Haifa to express their support for Ameer Makhoul and Omer Said, the victims of the latest Shin Bet machinations. An Israeli Arab MK expressed outrage at the security assault:
MK El-Sana added, “Shin Bet Chief Yuval Diskin should not be the one handling the government’s policy regarding the Arab minority. It’s not a crime to be a Palestinian in Israel.”
Makhoul’s brother threw the charges of spying back at the government:
“Ameer is strong,” he continued. “He will face this onslaught head-on, and at the end of the day, those facing justice would be the authorities…not him”
This reminded me of the Dylan song:
The loser now will be later to win…
And the first one now will later be last
For the times they are a-changin’
To some, depending on their political orientation, this may sound like either bluster or vain hope. But the great Mandala will turn and someday it will be the Makhouls and Saids of the world who will be lionized, while the Diskins will be spurned for their vain effort to stave off the inevitable transformation of Israel into a multi-ethnic state affirming the equal rights of all groups with none holding supremacy.
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Questions I’ve always had, as to the USA, and have again, as to Israel, is: What does “the security of the state” mean and what does “a pronounced fear regarding potential damage to the security of the State” mean.
In the USA, we recently had an attempted bombing in a public place. Did the attempt “damage” USA national security or did it harm New York City’s security (or safety)?
Does it harm USA security when the media report on the failed attempt to explode a bomb in public? If I J-walk in NYC, do I threaten “national security”? You know, by breaking a law?
Where and how does (mere) illegality bleed into threatening “security”, and when is that threat a threat to “national” or “state” security rather than “local” security?
If a major corporation floods the ocean and coast-line with oil, is this a threat to the environment? (yes), to local “security”? (?), to “national security? (?). If they did it deliberately, would the answers change?
Perhaps I’ve completely misunderstood. Perhaps it happens the other way around. A national state creates a bureaucracy, a service, Shin Bet, CIA, MOSSAD, FBI, whatever, whose TITLE or JOB is to “secure state security” and any time this agency takes a professional interest in a happening then that happening BECOMES and IS a “state security” issue.
So that when the USA FBI spies on, say, a labor unionist, that labor unionist’s activities ARE NATIONAL SECURITY THREATS because FBI is involved (and not because of the nature of the activities).
In the USA, recently, people were arrested for giving money to Hamas — where the money was for the purpose of humanitarian activities. The USA wisely observed that money is fungible and the same money could support military activity, so the gifts were support for terrorism.
Far more people in the USA give money for Israeli settlement activity (illegal per se) some of which money makes its way (due to the fungibility of money) to the weapons-related activities of people who live in those settlements, and these weapons occasionally find themselves aimed at Palestinians, aimed and even shot. For the purpose of changing the Palestinians’ minds on some subject (such as how close to get to the settlements), in other words, weapons-aided terrorism. (USA fails to arrest all these charitable givers, but, hey, you cannot arrest everybody, can you?)
Unless you are unaware, Canada, the US, the EU and Japan consider Hamas a terrorist organization.
As such, nobody in the US is going to care if you say it is meant for humanitarian activities. In fact, there have been cases where such fundings have found their way into Hamas’s military wing.
pabelmont, have you seen the film WHY WE FIGHT (2005)?
You will find this 99 minute film on google. Watch it.
Especially, I found, the evidence from Karen Kwiatkowski is very revealing. This should answer some of your “security” questions and much more.
“What ignorance. [S]He was (is) a judge, not a solider. A judge has a set of laws [S]he is bound to uphold. That’s the way the law works.”
Nonsense. There is no law saying that a judge must uphold a gag order every time one is requested. Where is that law written? Where is it written that she should interpret the law to forbid a citizen from having any contact with anyone the secret police deem a danger to Israel?
As you point out, it’s about legal interpretation. Here you go after the judge for a call you deem bad, yet you defended an apartheid judge whose interpretation upheld laws that convicted people of the serious offence of sleeping with someone of a different race.
No, not an interpretation. She didn’t examine any evidence before making her ruling. Do you think Richard Goldstone ever made a ruling w/o examining evidence about the accused’s guilt?
That was yr last comment about Goldstone. I warned you earlier about this & you ignored me. Don’t do so again.
But when it comes to national security, courts tend to be deferential to the executives. The FISA court here is a perfect example; they have never rejected a wiretap application.
Ahhh Richard, I have had a tough time figuring out what you are all about. But now I see what motivates you. All of your agitprop and proctologist’s view of Israel is designed with one goal in mind, the dissolution of the Jewish state. If you were a more honest individual your website heading would include the fact that your vision of peace in the Middle East requires the absence of Israel.
As you, articulated yourself, perhaps in a careless moment, your dream of “the inevitable transformation of Israel into a multi-ethnic state”.
PS: For the sake of brevity, I will leave aside the fact that Israel is already one of the most ethnically diverse places on the planet. Not so with any or all of her neighbors.
If you’d left it at this one lie, you’d still be commenting here. But alas you had to add others, which is why you comment here no more.
Richard, admit your sad demise. You are silencing people simply for pointing out your flaws and exposing your narrow-minded view. Nobody is being even slightly offensive, vulgar, or insulting.
One of your basic rules is to avoid making unsupported claims. You have made so many of those the past few days. You are convinced with your pseudo-righteousness that the only possibility you consider as truth is indeed the sole truth. You are blind to possibilities.
You walk all over your own setup of rules, but so very trigger-happy to ban if the opportunity arises for someone who speaks against your perverted ideas. You do not leave space for negotiation, and “because I say so” has served as your ultimate and final answer to any legitimate challenge you encounter.
Again, I am not saying you are necessarily wrong, just no better than those you oppose who are authoritarian. I am aware of the possibility the Shabak may be wrong, but you aren’t aware of the possibility they may be right.
In addition, regardless of whether you ban a person or not, actually trying to supply answers, even the same “because I know better” ones is still something to be expected from a chivalrous blogger who praises other courageous journalists.
So much for anti-censorship.
Nope, haven’t died yet. Still here I’m happy to say.
Go read the comment rules. They make very clear both for right & left-wing readers what the rules are & how to stay within them. If someone wants to accuse me of favoring the destruction of Israel they’re banned. Plain & simple. First because it’s a lie & one of the rules is that I don’t permit lies.
And if you call my ideas “perverted” one more time you’ll be next. I insist on commenters respecting ea. other even when they disagree. That adjective is the epitome of disrespectful. So go read the rules before you come back here.
Other than that you too have made no substantive argument against anything I’ve written. You’re basically dealing in smoke.
Richard,
Your blog name is “making the world a better place.”
How do you encourage that in your blog?
Your blog turned out to be a hate blog against Israel policy what so ever.
Is this your way to make the world a better place? I see no posts about other matters like Africa genocide or about dark regimes around the world.
It seems that all that matter for you is to blame Israel about all bad things in the world.
And about gag order:
Is that really an issue?
So what if there is a gag order. Maybe it is wrong and maybe it isn’t. But the big issue is really something else, it is about an Israeli citizen who is accused of being a spy.
This is the issue and not bullshit gag order.
What is wrong with you? Why do you write about nonsense when the real issues are spying/destroying Israel security.
[comment rule violation–commenter has been banned for serious violations]
It is an unfortunately truth that some people in the Arab community have contacts with people who are sworn to Israel’s destruction. Richard, if these people were Jewish instead of Arab, would you really be defending them?
Spies are spies, and the law against meeting with representatives of Israel’s enemies is the law. The politics should not matter in this case.
People should be much more worried about people like Azmi Bishara who do everything to convince other Israelis that the Arabs are a fifth column.
I have no idea what this means? Do you mean would I defend the right of a settler extremist to advocate boycott of Palestinians products w/o getting arrested by means of secret gag orders; or the right of settlers to meet w. their supporters in the USA or Britain–of course I would.
Not in Israel I’m afraid. I can have any form of contact w. anyone the Shin Bet deems a forbidden individual & I am guilty of spying even if we discussed the weather or exchanged an e mail asking about the latest soccer scores in Lebanon. Israeli law on this matter is ridiculous & makes a laughingstock of democracy. Prove to me with real credible evidence that this man did anything that really endangered the security of the state. I dare you.
Israelis don’t need Bishara to convince them the Palestinian citizens are a 5th column. A sizable minority & perhaps majority already believe this.
“Israelis don’t need Bishara to convince them the Palestinian citizens are a 5th column. A sizable minority & perhaps majority already believe this.”
They didn’t always think this way. It was never until recently that Israelis wished to live separately from Israeli Arabs. This is unfortunately the result of years of suicide bombing and radicalization of the Israeli Arab community. It is simply not true to say that it has always been this way.
Israel is at war with Hamas and Hezbollah. Just as Americans would arrest someone who met with Al-Qaeda in Iraq, so the Israelis must be tough with people who meet with these representatives of these groups. It has nothing to do with democracy and everything to do with basic national security.
“I have no idea what this means? Do you mean would I defend the right of a settler extremist to advocate boycott of Palestinians products w/o getting arrested by means of secret gag orders; or the right of settlers to meet w. their supporters in the USA or Britain–of course I would.”
It means that if Shin Bet arrested a Jew for spying, it would not make waves. But because it’s an Arab, it’s automatically a discrimination case.
I can’t say this is a lie since you clearly believe it to be true. But the fact that you do & that it is patently wrong is very sad & indicates the level of denial of Israeli Jews (if you are Israeli). First, Israel as a state and the Jews within it have also been prejudiced against Palestinians citizens. This is not a recent development. Second, the Palestinian Israeli community has NOT been radicalized. In fact, every poll done about its opinions about Israel and its sense of connectedness to Israel indicates a high level of acceptance and trust of Israel and its institutions. It is you who simply don’t know what you’re talking about regarding yr fellow Arab citizens.
Hamas and Hezbollah are NOT the same as Al Qaeda which again shows yr ignorance of basic facts.
Are you nuts? Of course it would. Spying cases are always big news and make waves no matter who is charged or what their religion or ethnicity.
Me: It was never until recently that Israelis wished to live separately from Israeli Arabs. This is unfortunately the result of years of suicide bombing and radicalization of the Israeli Arab community.
You’re twisting my words, Richard. I never said that there wasn’t prejudice. I said that today’s attitudes are of recent vintage. The desire to separate from the Arabs (rather than coexistence a la Oslo) is a direct result of the terrorism that started in the 1990s.
And you’re simply incorrect about the polls; there has been a significant shift in the opinion of Israeli Arabs toward the state in the last few years. In 2003, over 65 percent of Israeli Arabs believed that Israel had a right to exist as a Jewish and democratic state. In 2009, that number dropped to 41 percent. In 2003, over 81 percent believe that Israel had a right to exist at all. That number is now under 54 percent.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Intercommunal_relations
In 2007, about half of the Israeli Arabs polled said the kidnapping of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev by Hizbollah was justified.
Since you reveal nothing about the poll results you cite including who did the poll and where the results were published I can’t tell anything about the reliability of them. Pls. do so next time you cite anything like this.
Pls show respect for the comment threads by not monopolizing them. 3-4 comments in a single day should be more than enough participation.
You claimed that Israeli Palestinians were largely enemies of Israel. Even yr poll results if we’re to take them at face value (which I don’t necessarily) don’t prove this.
You did. You asked whether an American meeting w. Al Qaeda would be treated any differently than an Israeli meeting w. Hezbollah. That indicates an attempt to link the 2 groups.
That is not true of Hamas. Again an overstatement on yr part indicating you are misiinformed.
This is utter narischkeit. Which of the 2 has killed more civilians? Israel or Hezbollah? I don’t care whether there’s an explicit policy or not (& btw this could easily be argued since Israel in both Lebanon & Gaza essentially made civilians fair game as Goldstone noted about Gaza). I care about the numbers & results. The results are that Israel has killed FAR MORE Lebanese civilians than Hezbollah has killed Israeli.
You placed me in the same phrase with anti ZIonists & once again as with Al Qaeda & Hamas you allowed readers to believe you lumped them together. If you don’t intend to call me an anti-Zionist then don’t put me or my opinions in the same clause. Be clear and you won’t get into trouble here. Be lazy and you will. If you misstate or distort my views you can be damn sure I’ll defend myself. If you don’t like it too bad.
What polls? Where published? And once again, the statistics of the polls you do state do not support that Palestinians “are not generally supportive of the state.” And provide all the statistics when you quote the answer to a question asked in a poll, not just one number.
There is a diff. between being deferential & in the pocket of the security services, which is the case in Israel. Even the FISA court is provided evidence which the judges examine before approving a wiretap. This didn’t happen in Judge Ron’s case since she made a decision w/o seeing or reviewing evidence (how could she since the order was filed and approved on the same day?).
And how do you know they’ve never rejected a wiretap. It makes me very uncomfortable to read claims that are unsubstantiated. If you can substantiate this then do so or don’t make the claim.
Americans would arrest someone who met with Al-Qaeda in Iraq
“Hamas and Hezbollah are NOT the same as Al Qaeda which again shows yr ignorance of basic facts.”
Again, you are missing my point and twisting my words. No is saying Al-Qaeda is the same thing as Hamas and Hezbollah. Hamas and Hezbollah are both enemies of Israel. Both are terrorist organizations that make no secret of their desire to harm Israeli civilians. For an Israeli to meet with their representatives without government permission is a problem.
richard,
are you saying that the two individuals do not deny having conversations with hezbollah members?
no one outside of the israeli security forces, justice or the individuals themselves know what was said in those conversations, so it isnt fair to ask anyone to prove something that they have no knowledge about.
btw, do you have a link to a case where someone was found guilty of spying and the evidence showed that all they were doing was discussing football scores?
Do not use Richard’s tactics of daring people to defend their ideas by ways that cannot be done. This is something that is only reserved for him to use, and besides, how can you argue with someone who makes such claims (to quote):
“I am not wrong. They are not spies.”
This is equivalent to having a theistic argument that concludes with “I am not wrong. There is a god”.
I guess we will all have to simply wait to see how this case turns out. I mean, all of us except Richard. He already knows what it’s all about.
First, thanks to the Shin Bet which refuses to reveal its “evidence,” no one except Makhoul, Said & their interlocutor knows who they spoke to & what they said. But why should conversation w a Hebollah member be considered grave espionage? What kind of country makes such a thing a hanging offense?
The rest of yr comment was ridiculous and if you insult my intelligence w. stupidity this is the response you’ll get. Azmi Bishara went into involuntary exile after similar charges were made against him & none were ever proven or even offered with substantiating evidence.
Is this your idea of civil discourse, Richard?
Hezbollah is a terrorist group. It’s an enemy of Israel; Israel fought a war with it two years ago. If you meet with the representatives of an enemy of your country, it usually gets you in trouble.
And I think you, and a good chunk of the anti-Zionist community, are presumptuous and naive when it comes to these cases. The Israeli justice system has a decent record of independence and fairness. The unfortunate truth is that the Arab community has its extremists, and Israel is faced with the somewhat unusual situation of having a large minority who don’t respect the legitimacy of the state and are sometimes allied with those who would use violence to overthrow the state.
There have really not been many cases of Israeli Arabs being accused of spying, so one might reserve judgment until one knows more facts.
And Lebanese and Gazans and West Bankers & Syrians and Jordanians and Egyptians who have shared borders with Israel for decades tend to see Israel as a terrorist state. What does this prove? Nothing.
Where and when? Other than in Israel and non-democractic regimes?
Get this very straight if you want to continue commenting here: characterize my views precisely & accurately. I AM NOT A NON-ZIONIST. I am a progressive Zionist. Read my comment rules or you may not comment here long. They lay out the rules of discourse.
Not when it comes to national security issues & cases.
This is either a lie or ignorant as Israeli Palestinians are generally very supportive of Israel as a state and wish to acculturate if given half a chance which they are not. This is proven by numerous polls of their attitudes toward Israel. You clearly are too lazy or uninformed to bother knowing this. If you read deeper in this blog you’d find links to this information which is also available online.
There have been MANY cases of Israeli Palestinians being accused of security offenses. Again you don’t know what you’re talking about. As for “spying,” Bishara was accused of it.
Richard; I have dropped in on your blog from time to time but have not been inspired sufficiently to comment until now. It is a sad irony that in a blog post about gag orders you gagged Fawn and threatened to gag Shai for expressing a point of view you don’t like.
And Fawn was not lying. She called you on your own words. Like you, I too support a multi-ethnic state, but a true multi-ethnic state and a Jewish state are not compatible. Why did you ban Fawn for pointing out the obvious?
Read my comment rules. And get off this subject. If you don’t have a substantive on-topic comment to make then don’t make any.
Hezbollah is a terrorist group.
Well, the rest of international community doesn’t consider Israel a terrorist state, and unlike Hezbollah, Israel does not have an explicit policy of purposely targetting civilians.
“Get this very straight if you want to continue commenting here: characterize my views precisely & accurately. I AM NOT A NON-ZIONIST. I am a progressive Zionist. Read my comment rules or you may not comment here long. They lay out the rules of discourse.”
Don’t threaten me, Richard, and don’t be rude to me. I didn’t call you an anti-Zionist. I merely pointed out that you share with anti-Zionists a seeming willingness to reject the findings of Israeli judges in these cases.
” Israel is faced with the somewhat unusual situation of having a large minority who don’t respect the legitimacy of the state”
I generally agree that most Arabs in Israel would acculturate if given more of a chance, but the latest polls simply do not support your assertion that Palestinian Israelis are generally supportive of Israel as a state.
The polls taken over the last couple of years very CLEARLY suggest that Palestinians living in Israel are not generally supportive of the state, and certainly not generally supportive of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state. Again, only 41 percent support Israel as a Jewish and democratic state and under half support Israel’s right to exist. I don’t see how you could maintain, given these numbers, that Palestinians Israelis are generally supportive of Israel as a state.
I ask you to follow your own guidelines and refrain from personal insults like calling me lazy and informed.
Anybody knows how the Shin Bet arranges it that its requests are always brought to the same (sympathetic) judges? How do their prevent their requests from being brought before an Arab judge? It seems like (unlike other courts), the Petah Tikva court doesn’t have any Arab judges.
http://elyon1.court.gov.il/heb/cv/fe_html_out/menus/mnu_judges/mnu_jdgs_in_court_302.htm
What will they do when the first Arab judge will be appointed there? Or is it a dirty little secret within the judges’ appointment committee that Petah Tikva is “out of bounds” for Arab candidates?
Richard, I included the citation on one of the other posts. It’s a link to an wikipedia article on Arab citizens of Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Intercommunal_relations
The sources are an Israel Democracy Institute study that was reported in Haaretz. Just click through. I always provide cites for stuff like that.
I want to make it clear that I am not putting all the blame on the Palestinians Israelis here. I am always reminding my right-wing friends that given what has gone on over the past decade, the Israeli Arabs have actually been remarkably loyal and quiet; I would have expected the numbers to be much worse. There is a cycle here; Jewish Israeli attitudes toward Israeli Arabs were negatively affected by Intifada II and suicide bombing, and Israeli Arabs felt the chill and the increased distance and question more than they did before whether they can exist in a Jewish state.
What I was trying to say earlier is that the idea of physical separation from the Arabs, and polls showing Jewish Israeli support for encouraging transfer are recent developments. We no longer speak about Oslo and the New Middle East of Shimon Peres, where everybody coexists in economic prosperity. We speak about walls and separation. I think most people are weary of conflict, and the wall, economic prosperity in Israel, and Iran has encouraged people to think about other things.
Having argued in print in 2000 that Israelis needed to take a more active role in fostering Palestinian democracy and prosperity and that a cold peace would not work, these are not developments I am happy about.
Please show me where I said that Israeli Palestinians were largely enemies of Israel. I said nothing of the sort.
No is saying Al-Qaeda is the same thing as Hamas and Hezbollah.
I did not. I am merely trying to make the point that countries generally do not like their citizens cavorting around with the enemy. If Al-Qaeda is too loaded an example, then substitute India for America and Lahksar e-Taiba.
Both are terrorist organizations that make no secret of their desire to harm Israeli civilians
Are you asserting that Hamas is not a terrorist organization and that they do not desire to harm Israeli civilians? OK, as of late Hamas has moderated somewhat. But I do not think it is at all beyond the bounds of discourse to suggest both that Hamas still has its military wing and that desire to harm Israeli civilians is still there. I do not recall Hamas renouncing terrorism.
unlike Hezbollah, Israel does not have an explicit policy of purposely targetting civilians.
Comparing body counts is a counterargument. The US has clearly killed many more Afghani people thatn American people who were killed on 9/11, and I think most of us here believe that the US does not have a policy of targeting civilians. Hamas and Hezbollah lobbed rockets into Israeli civilian areas. Every time they did it they committed a war crime by purposely targetting civilians. It is an analytical and legal mistake to analyze questions of discrimination and proportionality using body counts alone.
I don’t think that anyone can point to an explicit Israeli policy that made civilians “fair game”; at the same time, there are numerous explicit statements by Hezbollah and Hamas leaders indicating no willingness to discriminate soldier from civilian and numerous actions over the years to indicate that neither Hezbollah nor Hamas discriminate.
I ask that you respect me in the same way.
Gag order and eavesdropping applications are usually filed and approved the same day because time is usually of the essence. Personally, I think these gag orders are ultra silly. I check the stats on FISA. Through 2004, they had actually rejected 4 applications out of 18,761. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Court
I believe those rejections are all since 9/11. The point is not really that they almost never reject anything; the point is that the courts generally defer to the executives on national security matters.
By the way, I’m an investigative prosecutor, and I do have some familiarity with things like this.
Applications for intrusive action, whether it’s a search warrant application, an eavesdropping warrant application, an application to unseal sealed records, are generally granted the day they are applied for. The Government routinely asks for confidentiality for applications filed during ongoing investigations, and even after People are arrested, the Government applies for protective orders to keep secret anything that would compromise an ongoing investigation.
Having read the gag order translation, I find nothing wrong with it; there is nothing wrong with sealing proceedings like these and it happens all the time so that an ongoing investigation is not compromised. Generally, there is no need to show evidence to the court for a request like this. The Court often takes the government at its word that there is an ongoing investigation, simply requiring, as this judge does, that the government renew their application. Of course, all of these applications made during investigations are made ex parte.
I’m not sure how you conclude that the judge’s order was not based on any evidentiary presentation. This was a secret proceeding, and my guess is that any application or hearing minutes were sealed. The judge’s order references petitioners’ application, which almost certainly went beyond what’s on that piece of paper. If the government applies for a search warrant to bust down someone’s door, you’re not going to know what the evidence underlying probable cause was, and the public part of the document is not going to reflect the judge’s evidentiary findings.
There’s just nothing about any of this that strikes me as especially strange.
The gag order may be silly and useless given the reality of modern media, but it is just not the big deal you are making it out to be.
Not true at all. Transfer has been popular for yrs. Polls show it too. Hell, “transfer” was what the Nakba was all about & that goes back to 1948!!
Hamas’ acts of terror have done far less damage to Israel than Israel’s acts of war & terror have to Palestinian civlians. So who is the terrorist? As for harming civilians, yes Hamas is not now harming Israeli civilians and does not do so as long as Israel honors ceasefires. When Israel does not do so, Hamas does not do so.
But you’ve just made my argument for me. The actual outcome of U.S. policy in Afghanistan is what renders it bankrupt & ultimately a failure. The deaths of civilians in that country, no matter whether we have a deliberate policy to kill them or not, destroys the viability of any policy there. The same holds true of Israel always chosing the military option in dealing w. Palestinians.
Just as the IDF purposely targeted civilians in its war plans for Cast Lead as atteested by Richard Goldstone. War crimes are a 2 way st. my friend, not one way.
That doesn’t excuse a judge from actually demanding to see the evidence in order to justify granting the order, which it appears Ron has not done. Since you’re a prosecutor, can you tell me why there is no Israeli Palestinian judge in Petah Tikvah court? Can it be that the Shin Bet would find it inconvenient to bring a gag order before such a judge & prefers someone in their pocket like the Honorable Judge Ron??
No need? Who says there is no need? The Shin Bet of course. Does the victim feel there is no need? This is precisely the problem & this would never fly in any other western democracy, even ones facing terror threats.
That’s not what I meant. I would expect that any judge in any democracy would, in granting such an order, say something “Having read the evidence, I find the state’s request to be justified.” The fact that Ron makes no reference at all to any evidence seen or unseen is odd in the extreme.
That’s because you are a prosecuting attorney in a state that is not fully democratic.
i see you are moderating my comments again, even though i am sure that i have not broken any of the commenting rules…but whatever
the naqba?
richard, you cannot seriously make people believe that you see both sides of the issue and then use the term…naqba
as for proportionality, even goldstone has stated that proportionality has nothing to do with comparative body counts, which is why his commission also found that hamas had engaged in war crimes.
as for a judges ruling, even here in the states, law enforcement agencies are aware of judges who will sign any warrant or any order on the flimsiest of evidence, sometimes just based on the word of the officer. does it make the united states less a democracy? may not be good, moral or even democratic, but it does not change the overall standing of the country.
I always intended to moderate yr comments. I told you I planned to ban you unless you informed me that you’d read my comment rules & agreed to abide by them. You never did. But when you continued commenting but didn’t violate the rules I decided I would moderate yr future comments in case you broke the rules again. I think moderation is a good thing in yr case since it forces you to realize that commenting here is a right that is earned & not granted w/o due consideration. Once I’m comfortable that you’re going to stay within bounds I’ll remove moderation.
I see, this is a term only Arabs are entitled to use but not Zionists or Jews?? SInce when?
The issue is that virtually EVERY judge, at least every Jewish judge, in Israel is pliant in the face of national security issues. In the U.S. there are some judges that are pliant and some that have a backbone. There are no judges w. backbone on this issue in Israel. Yes, a decision here or there by the Supreme Court has shown a little backbone. But these are the exception & not the rule. And such independence in never found in lower Israeli courts.
I’m sorry, but you’re going to have to substantiate that claim. If you think that the US is so different because five or six years after detaining people the appellate courts found that they had, gasp, habeus corpus rights, then you are not making a very serious argument. And I doubt you really can, since none of us know most of the ruling judges make on national security matters. Perhaps you have special knowledge, in which case, please share.
Also, you should show us how this is radically different from the national security jurisprudence of other democracies faced with similar issues.
Also, since you seem to intimate, again, based on nothing at all, that this is something that you know Jewish judges would do, can I assume that you know of situations where Arab judges have ruled differently?
Since you indicate you’re an Israeli prosecuting attorney & have far easier access to this information I’m going to throw your question back to you. Do some research in court records or whatever other archival info you can find and show me a single instance in which the Shin Bet went before an Israeli Palestinian judge requesting a gag order in a national security case. I’ll wait for yr reply w. great interest.
Can you show me she heard from any petitoners at all other than via the actual application document? She certainly didn’t hear fr lawyers for the accused.
Oh this argument is as serious as a heart attack. The cases you refer to involved non-citizens & U.S. law is not clear in such cases, which is why it took such a long period for the Supreme Court to clarify the status of the defendants. In the Israeli case, we’re talking about Israeli CITIZENS being treated as if they have no rights or certainly reduced rights at the behest of the security apparatus.
Do spare us the moral high dudgeon. It’s quite unconvincing. As I said, show me a single Arab judge who’s ever heard a national security gag order petition. I’d be willing to bet the Shin Bet wouldn’t dream of putting such a request before such a judge. Now you go prove me wrong.
I’m American, not Israeli. So I do not have access to that stuff. Even if I did, I suspect it would be difficult to find gag order rulings. Stuff like that is not usually published.
“Can you show me she heard from any petitoners at all other than via the actual application document? She certainly didn’t hear fr lawyers for the accused.”
She said she made her decision upon hearing from petitioners. Usually, an application like that is accompanied by an oral application, which would doubtless be sealed.
“Oh this argument is as serious as a heart attack. The cases you refer to involved non-citizens & U.S. law is not clear in such cases, which is why it took such a long period for the Supreme Court to clarify the status of the defendants. In the Israeli case, we’re talking about Israeli CITIZENS being treated as if they have no rights or certainly reduced rights at the behest of the security apparatus.”
Come on. Unsettled law on habeus issues does not take usually take five or six years to get to the Supreme Court whether the applicant is a citizen or not. And what does citizenship have to do with this case? We prosecute citizens every day while applying to seal records and enforce confidentiality. And might I remind you further, again, that the gag order had to be renewed after 30 days and was lifted after three weeks? This is hardly police state stuff.
“Do spare us the moral high dudgeon. It’s quite unconvincing. As I said, show me a single Arab judge who’s ever heard a national security gag order petition. I’d be willing to bet the Shin Bet wouldn’t dream of putting such a request before such a judge. Now you go prove me wrong.”
I won’t, if for no other reason than we just had a whole debate about how supportive Palestinians are of the state, and also because I frankly really do find your assertions in this regard offensive. An Arab sits on the Israeli Supreme Court, which has the power to step in and review all of this if it wants to. That judge is not known as a flaming activist.
I have no idea whether Shin Bet would bring something like this to an Arab judge. You might ask them sometime. But again, as a prosecutor, I can tell you that for ex parte applications like this, prosecutors try to rely on judges with whom they have had previous dealings and judges who have extensive experience. Lawyers don’t tend to look for judges who would deny their applications. I see no reason to believe that the thinking would be any different if the judge were an Arab instead of a Jew. Judges follow stare decisis in Israel just as we do in America, and are guided by the law and past decisions.
You’re a prosecuting attorney & you don’t know the timeline for Supreme Court cases? First of all, there were many cases. Almost all began after 9/11 (some in 2002 or 2003) & most were decided in the 2005-2007 time frame. That doesn’t fit your timeline. Besides what does it matter how long it takes to decide a case? The Israeli Supreme Court is still sitting on a war crimes case which it is too chicken shit to rule on & that case has dragged on for yrs. If I recall it may’ve disposed of the case by not ruling on it at all & kicking it back in some form or another. How’s that for judicial clarity?
You don’t understand why clarifying the rights of a non citizen is a far more complex legal process than clarifying the rights of a citizen? Are you sure you’re a lawyer? Besides, it appears that in Israel a citizen has fewer rights than some non citizens have in the U.S.
The gag order wasn’t removed willingly. It was removed after a group of us smashed it to pieces. The judge admitted as much in her ruling. Hardly democratic state stuff.
To quote a figure of film glory, “frankly, I don’t give a damn.” My claims about Palestinian Israelis had nothing to do with how a judge would rule in a legal decision. And the claims about the Shin Bet being unwilling to file with such a judge has nothing to do w. the views of the judge & everything to do w. the racism of the Shin Bet in making such decisions.
That’s right. And the security services felt no compunction about harrassing his daughter at the airport (look it up here, I wrote about the case along with many other similar ones) through use of racial profiling all because she was an Israeli Palestinian. That’s your color blind Israeli security apparatus at work.
When you go to work for the Israeli police or Shin Bet & make such a decision on their behalf then I’ll give this credence. Till then, you’re outa luck.
You make a mistake in believing the Israeli legal system does anything “just as we do in America.” SInce they have no constitution, separation of powers or checks & balances, yours is a vacant claim. I don’t want to make any statement about the use of precedent though I believe you’re wrong about that too. But I’ll check w. Israeli legal authorities & get back.
Interestingly, Rehavia Berman (who was probably the first to report on Makhoul’s arrest in the Hebrew blogosphere) says now he has evidence that the Lebanese guy whom Makhoul contacted belongs actually to a prominent Maronite Christian family, which comes politically from the anti-Syrian camp, and hence is not to be expected to be working on the same side with Hizbullah. Of course, no real evidence that this was indeed the case has been offered, so let’s wait and see.
Sorry, forgot the link (Hebrew):
http://www.youpost.co.il/world/local/2099–q-q-
Yeah, so three or four years to decide whether a guy has the right to ask the government to show why he’s being held. My original point, which has gotten obscured, is that this is worse, at least to me, then a temporary gag order. And as far as SCOTUS timelines go, when it comes to habeus petitions, they are not usually that long. As far as your argument that the reason it took as long as it did is that the law was unsettled, my response is, duh, SCOTUS doesn’t do cases where the law is settled. By the way, the law was quite settled; non-citizens have habeus corpus rights. But that’s beside the point.
You don’t understand why clarifying the rights of a non citizen is a far more complex legal process than clarifying the rights of a citizen? Are you sure you’re a lawyer? Besides, it appears that in Israel a citizen has fewer rights than some non citizens have in the U.S.
You’ll have to tell me which Israel Supreme Court war crimes case you’re referencing.
Usually, that’s how these things get removed; people challenge them. You won. If the state was so undemocratic, why did you win?
I don’t think anyone seriously claims that the Israeli security apparatus is colorblind, though to be perfectly frank, the Jews are not the ones going abroad to states that have declared Israel the enemy. Racial profiling is a bitch, but that is what happens when you have terrorism and that one major reason why terrorism is so horrible; it places lots of innocent people under suspicion. The suicide bombers in Israel have all been Arabs and have all targeted Jews. That has made a lot of the Jews pretty scared of the Arabs. It’s human nature. I think many democratic-minded people would understand the need for at least some racial profiling in the Israeli context. The Israelis are pretty honest about it. The Americans, who do pretty much the same thing at the airport, are not.
See http://www.loc.gov/law/help/israel.php
The Israeli system is based on the British system just like ours. They use stare decisis. The Israel Supreme Court often draws on case law from all over the world, along with occasional quotes from the Talmud and Scripture, in arriving at decisions. They may be the only country outside of ours to adopt a fundamentalist understanding of free speech similar to Brandenburg, which I believe the ISC has cited at least once.
There are three levels, magistrate courts, district courts, and the Israel Supreme Court. The lower levels are bound by the decisions of the higher ones.
Israel’s judiciary checks the legislature in a profound way. The ISC can jump in and basically strike down any piece of Knesset legislation it wants (and it has done that on numerous occasions). Britain also has no written constitution, but that does not mean it does not have some of the things that are contained in our Constitution.
When you write a comment only include comments you’re replying to directly. You’ve included so much extraneous text it’s very annoying, confusing & makes yr comments incredibly long.
The law concerning enemy combatants detained in Guantanamo is not settled. That’s precisely why it needed to go to the Supreme Court.
100 gag orders are implemented ea yr in Israel. I broke 2 of them. What about the other 98 which no one likely challenged. Did democracy work for those individuals if they didn’t want their case to be secret??
That’s not true either. I know of two Jewish journalists who publicly admitted to trips to Syria & Lebanon respectively & neither was charged with any crime let alone convicted or imprisoned. You should be more circumspect w. yr claims. Besides, I object to such travel bans esp. when they are blanket ones. There is absolutely no reason for them. ANd they also include as I understand it meeting someone from an enemy country even outside that country which is ridiculous. Israeli Palestinians have religious, ethnic, family & cultural affinities with their neighbors in Lebanon, Syria, etc. There is no reason they should be forced to give up those ties because Israel declares an entire nation to be its enemy when it isn’t fighting a war with it.a
That’s a bulls(&T liberal argument. Fighting racial profiling is like defending free speech. You need to fight it (or for it in the case of free speech) precisely in the times when most people clamor for it (or are willing to give it up).
You have a typically skewed racist view of the facts. In fact, there have been many Jewish terrorists & bombers & yet Israel doesn’t treat Jews the way it treats its Palestinian citizens. Besides, there have been almost no Israeli Palestinian CITIZENS who’ve engaged in acts of terror. SO there is absolutely NO excuse for criminalizing them as Israel does.
We have had terrorism attacks here in the U.S. & I have not heard of anything like the racist treatment of Arabs here that I’ve heard in Israel. Yes there have been a few incidents, but nothing like the consistent oppressive, intrusive treatment meted out to Israeli Palestinans by the goons & spooks at airports & in other settings.
You don’t have a clue how Israeli Palestinians are treated at Israeli airports. You’re just plain ignorant, abysmally so. And you revel in it & happily make ignorant generalizations having no basis in reality. I’ll make you a deal. Borrow a Palestinian Israeli ID, & try to exit or enter Israeli airspace. Then let me know if you sing the same tune. Or 2nd best read the many accounts of such treatment published here at this blog based on stories in Israeli newspapers.
More horse manure. Why were 700 Israeli citizens, most of them Arabs, arrested during Cast Lead for exercising their rights of free speech. Look, you can talk in all sorts of generalities & sing the praises of Israel’s Supreme Court or democratic system. But all you’re doing is cherry picking cases & not confronting the reality, the way things work in the real world. Theory, ideals even ideas have very little bearing on how Israel works in the pracitical real world.
And the Shin Bet, Mossad & IDF are not bound by any of it. Some democracy.
It does not check the Knesset in a profound way. In fact, the Knesset is considering emasculating the Supreme Court’s independence through legislation, something that would be unthinkable in any other democracy. When the Supreme Court strikes down a law, the Knesset usually finds a way to easily circumvent the Court.
Britain has a 600 yr history of democracy. Israeli doesn’t. Britain is a democracy. Israel thinks it is, but it isn’t.
“That’s not true either. I know of two Jewish journalists who publicly admitted to trips to Syria & Lebanon respectively & neither was charged with any crime let alone convicted or imprisoned.”
Perhaps that’s because they didn’t meet with representatives of terrorist organizations.
“That’s a bulls(&T liberal argument. Fighting racial profiling is like defending free speech. You need to fight it (or for it in the case of free speech) precisely in the times when most people clamor for it (or are willing to give it up).”
That’s a bulls(*t lefty argument. When racial profiling is the result of one terrorist attack, then one can say it’s worth fighting. When it’s the result of ten years of terrorist attacks by people of the same ethnic origin, fighting against it is mindless.
“In fact, there have been many Jewish terrorists & bombers & yet Israel doesn’t treat Jews the way it treats its Palestinian citizens…We have had terrorism attacks here in the U.S. & I have not heard of anything like the racist treatment of Arabs”
That’s bulls(#t PC argument that ignores the most basic facts. There has not been a sustained ten year campaign of suicide terrorism by Jews. There is not a history of Jews walking into pizza parlors and discos and crowded shopping areas and seders and blowing themselves up. As far as Palestinian Israeli citizens go, there have been a few incidents perpetrated directly by them and more where they have assisted terrorists from the West Bank in gaining entry to Israel proper.
But the reason there is racial profiling is that the Palestinian who are citizens look like the Palestinians in the West Bank and it is impossible to distinguish one from the other. Citizenship has nothing to do with it. If we had another ten terrorist attacks by foreign Arab terrorists here in the US, you can bet your bottom dollar that we’d have racial profiling here. We’ve had ONE and a large number of people in this country would be guaranteed to support racial profiling on that basis alone. Heck, 64% of the US supports Arizona’s show-me-your-papers statute, and that’s an immigration issue.
The primary fault for racial profiling lies with the terrorists of Hamas, who have forced Israel into this predicament. Blaming Israel for racial profiling under these circumstances is blaming the victim and holding Jews not only to a different standard, but a completely unreasonable one.
“Why were 700 Israeli citizens, most of them Arabs, arrested during Cast Lead for exercising their rights of free speech.”
Citation? Evidence? What happened? Were they convicted?
“And the Shin Bet, Mossad & IDF are not bound by any of it. Some democracy.”
Citation? Evidence? Basis?
“It does not check the Knesset in a profound way. In fact, the Knesset is considering emasculating the Supreme Court’s independence through legislation, something that would be unthinkable in any other democracy.”
Except that the ISC functions like no other high court in a democracy, and there has been talk of restricting its jurisdiction for many years precisely because of how much power it has to undermine the will of the people. Taking away the power of the Court to intervene sua sponte is not exactly emasculating it.
“Britain has a 600 yr history of democracy. Israeli doesn’t. Britain is a democracy. Israel thinks it is, but it isn’t.”
Spoken like the progressive Zionist you claim to be. America has a 225 year history of democracy, the first 180 of which featured slavery and segregation. Israel is a democracy, whether you want to admit it or not.
I’m rapidly tiring of this. You’re repeating yrself & yr original comments weren’t compelling to begin with. That was your last comment in this thread.
Terrorist? Is Syria “terrorist?” Israeli Palestinian Knesset members have been threatened with arrest merely for visiting Syria where they have family & other ties. This Druze family was refused return into Israel for attending a family funeral in Syria. After the Israeli Jewish journalist returned, hardly a peep out of the government about the trip.
So you’re in favor of racial profiling in Israel, but not in the U.S. And still claim that a nation that persecutes some of its citizens because of their ethnicity is still a democracy. Excuse me, but the 20% of Israelis who are persecuted don’t agree. And they, unlike you, are actual Israeli citizens & suffer the consequences. You don’t. Not only that, but you’ve approved of racial profiling of Israeli Palestinians, who have hardly anything to do w. terror attacks against Israel despite the fact that it is easy for Israeli authrorities to distinguish bet. Israeli Palestinians & non Israeli Palestinians. You’re actually in favor of denying civil rights to Israel’s ethnic minority when doing so serves no useful purpose whatsoever. BTW, can you offer a single example of such racial profiling against Israeli Palestinians which has ever caught a suspected terrorist?
Actually, there has been a sustained campaign of terror by Jews against both Palestinian & fellow Jews. But the reason why there has not been even more is that Israel has a far more lethal weapon at its disposal to imbue Palestinians with the fear of God, the IDF. And the IDF & related authorities (Border Police, etc.) have murdered far more Palestinian civilians in Lebanon, Gaza and even inside Israel than any terror inflicted by Palestinians against Israelis.
False again. Israeli carry identity documents which tell authorities whether someone is Israeli Palestinian or non Israeli Palestinian. And Israeli Palestinian travelers, who the Israeli authorities know are Israeli Palestinian citizens of the State are singled out for obnoxious treatment.
The number is miniscule and you know it. The overwhelming majority of Israeli Palestinian citizens of Israel are loyal to the State, which rewards their loyaly with racism, mistrust and discrimination.
Ah, I see. The reason Israel must treat it’s own citizens so badly is because of Hamas. Non sequitur. You really want to make this argument w. a straight face? This is right out of the hasbara workshop. And here I thought you were fairly intelligent. I guess even a law degree doesn’t guarantee sophisticated arguments. The primary fault for racial profiling lies with the party which chooses to implement it on its citizens. That is, the State of Israel.
You don’t know that Israelis in their hundreds were arrested & locked up merely for demonstrating against the war? Where were you? What were you reading? You certainly weren’t here or you would’ve read my posts on the subject (which you can still look up & read).
Look. I write about the conflict every day. There are 3,800 posts here. I’m not going to do research for you. Look it up yourself. You know how to use Google. The information is accurate. But I have a lot better things to do w. my time then spend it searching for a fact I read in a newspaper a few years ago & would take me some precious time to look up for you. Do it yourself. Or write to B’Tselem & ask them to document it. Or go to their site & look it up. It’s a lot more imporant for you to do that than me since yr education is clearly very limited on these issues.
Again, this is what I write about here regularly. If you want evidence it’s here. Go find it. But basically, the Supreme Court has demanded in 3 diff. rulings over several yrs time that the IDF reroute the Separation Wall in the Bilin area with a path that is closer to the Green Line. IDF response: silence. They did nothing until the Court showed it was exasperated & ready to throw the book at them. Only then did the IDF get off its rear end. The Wall still is not rerouted though at least there is a plan in place to do so. Second example, the Supreme Court ruled the IDF could not engage in targeted killings if civilians would be present. The IDF engaged in targeted killings when civilians were present & then lied about the murders saying they’d happened when the victims were armed & resisting when they were neither. The Supreme Court has done nothing to address IDF impunity in this matter. Those are just 2 examples off the top of my head.
I don’t CLAIM to be a progressive Zionist. I am one. And if you doubt it and say otherwise you’ll say it somewhere else. I have enough people distorting my record & making false claims about it to have to hear it here. You think a progressive Zionist isn’t allowed to say israel isn’t a democracy? You think a progressive Zionist is bound by some rule to lie or distort the Israeli reality for the sake of some sense of loyalty to–to what? Solidarity to the idea of Jewish supremacism? I think the Zionist dream can be realized within a state that extends equal rights & treatment to all citizens. To the extent that Israel doesn’t do that, it won’t receive my approbation. To the extent it does, it will.
You are deaf dumb and blind. And you’re done with yr participation in this thread. You are welcome to comment in other threads.b
“Terrorist? Is Syria “terrorist?” Israeli Palestinian Knesset members have been threatened with arrest merely for visiting Syria where they have family & other ties. That’s precisely what one Israeli Jewish journalist did.”
Again, you’re not providing the context, so there’s no way for me to examine your statement. Try, just try, to hold yourself to the standard you hold the rest of us to.
“BTW, can you offer a single example of such racial profiling against Israeli Palestinians which has ever caught a suspected terrorist?”
You’re just throwing up straw men. You can’t racially profile without racially profiling Palestinian Israelis. It’s called racial profiling, not citizenship profiling. And yes, I support it in Israel because Israel has a damn good reason for doing it, and no, I don’t believe that a country that engages in racial profiling is automatically not a democracy. We do plenty of racial profiling in America, whether you want to admit it or not. America is a democracy.
“Actually, there has been a sustained campaign of terror by Jews against both Palestinian & fellow Jews…And the IDF & related authorities (Border Police, etc.) have murdered far more Palestinian civilians in Lebanon, Gaza and even inside Israel than any terror inflicted by Palestinians against Israelis.”
Oh, save it. What the IDF does is not the same thing as strapping on a bomb and walking into a pizza parlour dressed as a civilian. You’re just making absurd political arguments that have nothing whatsoever to do with reality. You’re so big on what it’s like to be a Palestinian. Try being an Israeli. Try that thought experiment. Try imagining what it’s like to live in a society where everybody knows somebody who was blown up by a suicide bomber.
It appears that you admit that IDF changed the route of the wall at least once in response to an ISC decision.
You say you write about this stuff all day. Lots of people do. I don’t trust everything I read, particularly on the I-P conflict, particularly by people with political axes to grind. And by the way, I read the damn Guardian coverage of the conflict every day, including your columns, so save me your crap about how uninformed I am. And while I’ll accept your progressive Zionist label (labels are unimportant to me generally), I am baffled by the utterly ridiculous defensiveness you display about it like you doubt the courage of your convictions. I have close Jewish friends who are ideological anti-Zionists, and even they don’t have a big stick up their ass like you do.
I am progressive Zionist too, though I tend to be one without spewing self-righteousness. I don’t tend to interpret the label as giving me the ability to trash every decision the Israeli government makes and to, as you clearly do, adopt the Palestinian narrative wholesale. And I have taken plenty of right-wing sh*t in my day. And I have said plenty here and elsewhere about the importance of treating Arab Israelis with dignity.
If you are in any way reflective of what people think and how people act in J-Street, then I am definitely going to stop defending that organization to those who would like to see it thrown on the trash heap.
I told you you were done in this thread. You ignored me. Any future comment will be moderated till you’ve shown you can follow the rules & not monopolize discourse.
I linked to an article fr. today’s Haaretz describing a Druze family refused re-entry into Israel for visiting Syria to attend a funeral. How much more context do you need? The name of the deceased? The names of the terrorists they visited while there?
That’s a tautology that means nothing. Israel doesn’t have to racially profile Israeli Palestinians since it knows they pose no danger of terrorism yet profiles & harrasses them anyway.
What do you call invading Gaza and killing 1,100 civilians, a good number of them in cold blood?
You know NOTHING about me. I lived in Israel for two years. I know what it’s like to be an Israeli and live in Israel. But you don’t have a clue about what Palestinian life is like & instead of admitting it & dealing w. it you attempt to throw up a red herring that I know nothing about Israeli life.
If you read the Guardian every day, you’d know that I haven’t published a column there in nearly a year. I guess you don’t read it every day.
You clearly haven’t had anyone call you a Hamas lover, terror lover, Arab ass licker, Israel hater, kapo, kike, Jew by birth,…need I go on. When you get that slime coming yr way then we’ll see how you react when people distort yr views.
What a laugh. You’re PEI (progressive except Israel).
More lies. I don’t adopt the Palestinian narrative wholesale & you don’t know enough about me nor have you read enough of this blog to be able to make such a stupid, misinformed judgment. Yr problem is that you’re unused to progressive Jews who call themselves Zionist who are willing to criticize Israeli policy. It’s a hard concept to wrap yr arms around.
What in heaven’s name gave you the mistaken notion that I am a representative of J Street? Where do you come up with these things? Do you bother to read anything here before you wade into the deep and get lost? Once again, do a simply Google search in this blog & you’ll find out my views of J St.
You WILL NOT publish another comment in this thread. And future comments will be moderated.
She looks like Jabba the Hut.