78 thoughts on “Israeli Extremists Shout ‘Hitler Was Right’ – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. Jews chanting “Heil Hitler!” at other Jews, in Israel, whilst two (army?) officers stand there gawping, only to be ushered away by a police officer. It seems the guy in the video is mistaken: It is not Europe that Jews should fear entering for fear of being slughtered, it is Israel.

    Where else in the world, besides the Middle East, could you get away with chanting Heil Hitler at Jews? Israel definately does not belong in the West.

  2. Richard,

    Extremely disturbing material.

    I’d note that the two men who can be seen in this video chanting “Hitler was right,” directed at Ashkenazi Jews, seem on the face of it to be practicing a form of anti-Jewish vilification somewhat different from that of John Hagee who, per my recent article in Zeek (a co-production of The Forward), claims Adolf Hitler was a “half-breed Jew.” [ See:
    http://zeek.forward.com/articles/116292/ ]

    But I believe I’m seeing a convergence of these two, apparently distinct, styles of hatred.

    Best,
    BruceW

  3. Probably the Zionist answer to that would be “in Israel Jews lead so normal an existence that they even enjoy the freedom to shout Heil Hitler, which the dhimmi-like Diaspora Jews wouldn’t dare do for fear of inciting actual Nazism.”

    Or some such.

  4. Do not be disillusioned by those chants – these men don’t care at all. This is Israel’s way of politics. Menachem Begin and Ben Gurion used to call each other Nazis. In Israel politics is brute force. You throw stuff at a wall and it leaves a stain. This is why Israel society keeps sinking – it has no culture. Instead you small ways of violence in every day interactions. The video just happens to be a demonstration of the right, but it can happen at any time just in smaller dozes. It has always been this way and now it is in politics, the uncivil society, and even the government.

  5. FWIW, here’s the discussion on this at jsf
    http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2010/01/hitler-was-right-so-say-two-angry.html

    “This is more complicated that it sounds to those not into Israeli sociology. The two Israelis, Jews of Arab origins, identify the protesters as Ashkenazi (Jews of European origin), and clearly intend their words as a slur for Ashkenazis. In Israel, Jews of Arab origins have been systematically discriminated against and oppressed since the beginning of the state. The great success of the Ashkenazi dominated Labor Party was to create a linkage between peace with Palestinians and racism against Jews of Arab origin. This is the foul fruit of that achievement.”

    1. I don’t buy it. Yes, there is an element of ethnic resentment in the diatribe. But there is absolutely no justification for any Mizrahi Jew to tell an Ashkenazi Jew (& why do we accept the Mizrahi assumption that the Sheikh Jarrah demonstrators are all Ashkenazi?) that Hitler should’ve killed them all in the ovens? Personally, I believe that these two shnooks are using ethnic resentment as a cover for their real motive, which is to smear the peace movement. For that reason, if we get too deep into the sociology of the outburst then we miss the real message, which is that the most extreme on the Israeli right wants to annihilate the Israeli peace movement & prefers Hitler would’ve done it for them.

      1. You don’t buy what? That there is an “element” of ethnic resentment? Well, there is. And it’s deep, whether you buy it or not. And how is noting this fact, and bringing some awareness in the West, which is pretty ignorant about it, about how the historical racism of Israel’s so-called “peace movement” has been its undoing, is “justifying” it? Do you also think that trying to understanding why 9/11 happened is “justifying” it?

        1. You don’t buy what? That there is an “element” of ethnic resentment? Well, there is.

          What is it that you didn’t understand in this statement of mine?

          Yes, there is an element of ethnic resentment in the diatribe

          Pointing to ethnic resentment as anything that justifies or even explains the rhetoric of these beasts & scum is what I don’t buy. The resentment is a veneer to displace attention fr. the murderousness of the far right annihilationist rhetoric.

          1. Pointing to ethnic resentment as anything that justifies or even explains the rhetoric of these beasts & scum is what I don’t buy. The resentment is a veneer to displace attention fr. the murderousness of the far right annihilationist rhetoric.

            So the biggest electorate block in Israel (and these opinions and annihilationist rhetoric is not marginal. These are common opinions and common rhetoric) is just naturally hateful. There is no logic to it, no explanation for it, no history behind it, nothing to understand at all. Israelis, especially those who are not Ashkenazis, those of Arab origins, are just just born (or raised) “beast and scum,” right? They are attracted to murderousness because of their very nature/culture, which they try to hide (but why then do they need to hide it?) with a “veneer” of grievances. is that what you are saying?

          2. Israelis, especially those who are not Ashkenazis, those of Arab origins, are just just born (or raised) “beast and scum,” right?

            I never said that & I would appreciate yr being precise in how you characterize what I believe & not put words in my mouth. There are Mizrahim who are centrist, leftist & rightist. Then there are those who are beyond the Pale like these two bozos. I don’t believe that every or even most Mizrahim agree w. the annihilationist rhetoric spouted by these two.

            But do I believe there has been tremendous prejudice directed against Mizrahim and that they as a rule resent it bitterly & that it informs their identity as Israelis? Yes, certainly & understandably & justifiably so. But do I believe that any such treatment no matter how vicious or cruel justifies what these men believe? No.

          3. I’m being very precise. You said “For that reason, if we get too deep into the sociology of the outburst then we miss the real message, ”

            Namely, you said that understanding of the political and historical context of these expressions is a distraction that makes it difficult to get “the real message.” In other words, the less we understand, the better we are at rendering judgment. Is that a precise description of what you said?

            And how do we know what is the message given that we shouldn’t try to understand where it is coming from? We just know it comes from “annihilationism.” That is, the message explains itself. There is nothing behind it. And where does the message come from? It doesn’t come from anywhere according to you. It is just there. Now you may not believe that this is a way to characterize people as fundamentally murderous, but that is the only possible implication I see. If you have a different one, I’d be eager to learn about it.

            I don’t know how many Mizrahis would agree with that rhetoric, and how many, probably more, agree with the underlying sentiment but not with the style. Based on my personal impressions and conversations, I’d say a significant segment of Israel shares at least partially the sentiments expressed by these two people. But surely, if you disagree and thought it represented nothing but two freaks, why did you post it? What is the journalistic value of posting a video of two freaks? And if it does represent something deeper, and you refuse to ask what accounts for these sentiments, than what are you left with other than a pure characterization of people as inherently hateful and murderous?

          4. In other words

            That’s a fatal phrase for you. It means: “here comes my distortion of what Silverstein actually believes.” I never said we should not understand ethnic resentment as you claim I did. I said we should understand it but that another explanation was more cogent.

            Is that a precise description of what you said?

            No, it’s a distortion.

            It doesn’t come from anywhere according to you.

            How tiresome. Of course it comes from somewhere. It comes from rightist Israeli pro-settler nationalism. That’s the most important msg. to be learned.

            I’d say a significant segment of Israel shares at least partially the sentiments expressed by these two people

            I’m not sure what a “significant segment” and “share at least partially” means. A significant segment of Americans share at least partially the views of Sarah Palin. Will that get her elected dog catcher?

            if you disagree and thought it represented nothing but two freaks

            So you actually believe that I think the views of Israel’s extremist settlers are nothing but those of a bunch of insignificant “freaks?” Do you actually know anything about my views or what I write? You can’t for you to say this nonsense which once again misconceives my real views.

          5. It is impossible to have an intelligent conversation with you because you do not own up to what you write. Yes, “in other words” is a “distortion”, the kind of “distortion” that happens when ideas leave the mind of their owners and reach their destination. That is how communication works. You tell me x, and I tell you what I understand from x. “No, you failed to read my mind”, is not an acceptable response. Obviously, understanding Israeli society threatens you. Your problem.

            Have a nice day.

          6. These two Bozos (no intended insult to Bozo) don’t represent any far right or even far left movement. They are two angry idiots expressing their disgusting and insulting opinions.

            You’d like to attribute them to the far right. I have never heard anyone on the far right make a connection to Hitler (Yimchah Shemo) and death to the Jews by anyone representing the right.

            The only thing provable here is that they belong more to the far out. You want to claim they represent the right… prove it.

        1. http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/sephardi_typologies_hating_ourselves_and_others1/0011933

          From “Sephardi Typologies: Hating Ourselves and Others”:

          “So here we see that Sephardic Jews were swindled out of knowledge of their own history and, like many colonized peoples, had been taught to see the history of the “White” hegemon as their own. Their Arab nativity was denied them and even more cruelly was identified as the identity of the “enemy”; thus making Sephardim into self-haters who when they looked in the mirror saw the Arab enemy while simultaneously seeing themselves as not-Arab, as being Ashkenazi.

          Sephardim were thus denied access to their history, except to variously see that history as faulty, dangerous and irrelevant.”

    2. Watching the video made me wonder about the same issues Andrew R addresses. The demonstrators may not have been majority Ashkenazi at all, but the fact that the men in the video perceive them as such and that this inspires them in their venom is revealing.

      I do not think it is too farfetched to see some sort of connection with discrimination of Jews of Arab origin in Israel. Belonging to a marginalized group does not always inspire solidarity with other victims of mistreatment. Unfortunately the opposite is often the case.

      The last Breaking the Silence report seemed to indicate that female soldiers in the IDF are even more demeaning in their attitude toward Palestinians than men. Dutch pro-Israeli websites like to point out with glee that Druze members of the IDF are “well-known for their harsh treatment of the Palestinians” (irritatingly suggesting that Jewish soldiers (not being ‘Arab’) are above such things). It may be that there is a kernel of truth in what they say (I have no idea), but if so, could the same feeling of being marginalized and having to prove yourself as a minority not be partly behind the aggression?

      This is no excuse of course, but the mechanism is not unknown. Isn’t it said that abused children often mistreat the creatures that they themselves have power over (i.e. their pets)?

      1. Here is a possible scenario to put some perspective on these two idiots… I state up front I don’t condone their words or behavior….

        These two guys from perhaps Mizrachi (read Jews from Arab Lands) background (think they) know the Arab mentality as being Anti-Jewish. They are probably very Anti-Arab due to what they may have experienced themselves or learned from the experiences of their parents under Arab rule.

        Thus, when other Israelis, especially Ashkenazim are seen demonstrating in support of Arabs, they see it as “these people don’t know what they are doing… they are walking with the enemy..they are traitors”… and thus their stupid, insulting and crazy language.

        I’m sure there are Mizrahim who believe the Ashkenazim have not had, nor share their experience with Arabs, and thus they see this fellowship with Arabs as a betrayal to their Jewish connection.

        Perhaps combined with prejudice that, at some level, still exists between the Ashkenazim and Mizrachim, it is exasperated and compounded.

        I think this is less a political issue than it is sociological… even as the blogger (I believe) noted there are both Ashkenazim and Mizrachim in the Left movement. And these two idiots didn’t refer to “S’molanim” (Leftists), but to their social background.

        1. You say: “I’m sure there are Mizrahim who believe the Ashkenazim have not had, nor share their experience with Arabs, and thus they see this fellowship with Arabs as a betrayal to their Jewish connection.”

          Are you trying to say that it all boils down to Arab hatred of Jews, of which the clueless pampered Ashkenazi have no idea?

          Jews (and Christians alike) as minorities in Muslim countries were, and are, definitely marginalized, but so are Palestinians in Israeli society today, and there is not much of a difference.

          In my own Europe however, the real mistreatment of Jews took place, and THIS is what these guys INCESSANTLY refer to! Not ONCE do they speak of their supposedly bad “experience with Arabs”. Nevertheless, you seem to be determined to see this as the cause of their hatred for the silly Arab-loving Ashkenazi (or imagined Ashkenazi).

          Zionism and the need for a Jewish state were born out of European Anti-Semitism. Arab “experiences” had nothing to do with it. Put the blame where it belongs: Discrimination of minorities is of ALL cultures, and ALL ages, but murderous Anti-Semitism is a Christian European thing. Please do not drag the Arabs into this, certainly not as an excuse for silly people whose behavior you yourself do not even agree with.

          1. I think it’s somewhat logical to assume that since Mizrachi Jews indeed lived among Moslems in Middle Eastern countires for generations, yes they would have a better insight into Moslem and middle eastern culture and thinking than their Ashkenazic brothers.

            Western Ashkenazim are not patsies or idiots… they have a Western thinking and understanding of the world.

            Wouldn’t you agree that Western thinking and Middle Eastern thinking are not the same?

            I’d say it is especially true in the complicated issues of the Israeli-Arab conflict. Both sides (to be fair) need to understand and recognize the other sides thinking.

            There is an “Western Mentality” as much as there is an “Arab Mentality”. They don’t see the issues of the world in the same way.

          2. Western thinking and Middle Eastern thinking are not the same?

            I have no idea what this means & it smacks of at the least wild generalization or at the most racism. Human thought is human thought. I don’t think westerners and easterners think differently.

            Only a westerner could make such a generalization about non-westerners.

          3. “Human thought is human thought”

            So the whole world thinks alike, we are all just one big society?

            Different cultures interpret events, actions, even color differently. There points of references are different. There social engagements are different. I’m not saying one is better or more valid than another, but they are not the same.

            What one culture finds important might not have much of an impact on another.

            If we all think and interpret alike, then what the hell is a “westerner” to somebody else?..were all the same, is that what you are saying?

          4. So the whole world thinks alike, we are all just one big society?

            Last I checked we were all the same species unless Israel has succeeded in declaring Arabs an inferior one while I wasn’t looking. Diff. societies do not mean we think differently. It means we have diff. customs, religions & social structures. That doesn’t mean our brains or thought processes work differently. It doesn’t mean our basic values are diff. because they aren’t.

          5. This darn comment thing is doing it again, willy nilly putting comments where I don’t mean for them to go. Is it a glitch?

            Up there, arrow up, meant to be here which might not be “here” when I click submit comment:)

          6. Robin- I agree with you… I just replied to something Richard said (right above you), and it popped in somewhere in the middle of the chain.

            It’s a tech thing no doubt.

          7. David, I just went back and reread what you wrote, “There is an “Western Mentality” as much as there is an “Arab Mentality”. They don’t see the issues of the world in the same way.”

            OK, David, do you realize that the use of the word “mentality” is a very precarious one? Look up the definition of the word and you will see why. Note that most often when the term “Arab mentality” is used it is usually in derogatory manner. I agree with you completely that people VIEW things differently due to their own construct but you might want to limit your use of that term because quite honestly it is a trigger. Also, your choice of using the example of honor killings sort of outs your bias. Choosing the extreme as an example David is a dead giveaway.

            There, said it.

            But Richard, different cultures indeed do have different values. Any anthropologist will point this out to you in a heartbeat.

            OK, now, what is the point of this discussion as it devolved? Are we trying to get at the bottom of why those two unsavory men might act like that? Wanna throw a little nature vs nurture into the mix as well? Wanna throw a little behavior modification vs. punishment in?

            Point being is that it is a very complicated to try to figure out “why” people act the way they do, but at the end of the day it has to be done if EVER there is to be true dialog between peoples to reach some sort of mutual consensus to end conflict. (dialog and dart guns filled with animal tranquilizers when the former is simply out of the question)

            OOOH, just read this morsel, “know the Arab mentality as being Anti-Jewish. They are probably very Anti-Arab due to what they may have experienced themselves or learned from the experiences of their parents under Arab rule.”

            “Arab rule”, another generalization David. Hope this isn’t deemed off topic because I think anyone reading here may find it very interesting

            http://www.haruth.com/jw/JewsBahrain.html

            Read this part:

            “The problems didn’t come from the Bahrainis, but from a few foreigners. At that time, there were a lot of pearl divers and Iranian merchants coming here to trade. There were a few problems, but none of the Bahrainis were involved. When riots broke out in the streets protesting the creation of Israel, many of the Jewish families took refuge with Bahraini friends and their families. Most of the Jews stayed in Muslim houses until things settled down,” says Rouben.

            “In 1948 these foreigners raided the synagogue, and I think a house was burned. But nobody was hurt. Some people decided to leave, but not because anything happened personally to them,” says Rouben.
            *******************************

            OK in 1948 my ex-husbands’ grandfather was a pearl merchant (Saudi-living in Bahrain). His business partner was Jewish. Abdulrahman took several Jewish families into his home who were frightened and then arranged safe passage for them. NONE of them went to Israel.

            Point being David, please stop your generalizations. That is what is rubbing me the wrong way. When you say “Arab” and then point to extremes to buttress your argument, it does nothing for the dialog you claim to be seeking.

          8. Robin,

            Okay, I won’t call it Mentality… I did not mean to be intentionally derrogatory to Arabs or Islam.

            Yes, I do have a bias for any culture or society that devalues life. This is something, as I quoted from article supporting that Honor Killing is NOT part of Islam, where the person does state
            (http://islamfinland.wordpress.com/2009/07/31/is-honor-killing-a-part-of-islam/):

            “Honor killing is a disease that has spread amongst Muslims unfortunately…:

            I do NOT hate Islam (Richard thinks differently about me), but there are aspects of societies or people who claim to be Islamic or use “Islam” as their source for committing acts of murder that rub me the wrong way.

            The SAME way that these two jokers rub me the wrong way when I hear Jews yell what they did, or even “Death to Arabs”. That really gets me hot… I don’t like it at all.

          9. I do have a bias for any culture or society that devalues life.

            Name me one culture or society that devalues life. This too smacks of racism.

            there are aspects of societies or people who claim to be Islamic or use “Islam” as their source for committing acts of murder that rub me the wrong way.

            That is not the fault or problem of Islam any more than Judaism is at fault for the idiocy of settler extremists who kill Jews & Muslims who they detest. Instead of making dumb generalizations about “Islam” you ought to study the ideas of the particular individuals or groups you object to w/o reference to them representing Islam in any sense other than their own sick-twisted claim that they do.

          10. OK, the “glitch” placed my comment to David in the wrong place again! Forgive me for posting it again but for clarity sake it really does need to be in the right place in this thread.

            I have a different suggestion for David. Rather than focusing on the negative, focus on the positive. It is a well known fact in neuro-science that one’s thought process can be “exercised” to change the thought process. Replace the negative with positive thoughts through changes in behavior.

            David, depending on where you are residing, I suggest getting involved with an interfaith group. “Rub shoulders” with that which you wrote you do not hate. Stick your toe in so to speak and put in to practice what you are saying, you don’t hate Islam, therefor you must not hate Muslims which is a GOOD thing David, but put your words into action. Start slowly if it feels foreign to you. There are enough jihadwatches and even those who point out (as in the link you gave) that honor killing and other such acts are aberations. The former sowing discord while the other attempts to prove the opposite which is a never ending task as the ABERATIONS provide fodder for the former. Focus on the positive David. The Holy Land is holy to THREE faiths, not just one. (and no I am not a pollyana-but if peace is ever to be accomplished, it will be the peace-makers who accomplish it)

          11. I did not say it was the fault of Islam.

            But if there is some organization attaching themselves to Islam and doing things that are against, or not part of the Moslem religion, then representatives of Islam should distance themselves and speak out loudly against this organization.

            I’d love to learn about Immams or other spiritual leaders of Islam who do speak out against those who mis-use Islam’s name and religion.

            I’d say the same thing about Judaism. I concur about far right Jewish extremists who desecrate places of worship or murder ANY innocent, Arab, Jew or Christian.

            Representatives of Judaism (Rabbis, leaders etc.) should distance themselves and speak out loudly against these extreme right radical activists who murder or desecrate holy places in Judaism’s name.

            There is a phrase I’ve heard:… “Don’t confuse the ‘religious’ with the ‘Religion’ “.

          12. if there is some organization attaching themselves to Islam and doing things that are against, or not part of the Moslem religion, then representatives of Islam should distance themselves and speak out loudly against this organization.

            This would actually be a credible statement if you and every other person ignorant about Islam insisted as loudly as you do here that all representatives of Judaism should distance themselves & speak out loudly against settler rabbis who claim in the name of Judaism that Palestinian children should be killed because they will grow up to be terrorists. Until you & others who believe as you do act fairly, don’t bother advising any representative of Islam about what he or she should do to keep the reputation of Islam safe and pure. It is quite secure w/o yr assistance thank you.

            Islam is not at fault for the stupidity of a few of its followers no more than Judaism is at fault for the hooliganism of some of its adherents.

            Don’t confuse the ‘religious’ with the ‘Religion’

            Which is precisely what you’ve done by claiming that Muslims must denounce the idiocy of a few of their extremist brethren or risk being labelled terror lovers.

          13. “Name me one culture or society that devalues life.”

            Okay… ANY society or culture that allows Honor Killing to take place without any or “lip service” impunity for the perpetrators.

          14. Did somebody doctor your statement above… on my version here it says that you stated:

            “I can buy a lot of what you say”…

            earlier I thought the reply said:

            “I can’t buy a lot…”

            Just wanted to make sure nobody is hacking your words.
            (BTW, I’m on a Mac now… I usually use a PC).

          15. No, it really was ‘can’ from the start, Daniel. You must have misread it. (These things happen.)

  6. Richard, I have ENTIRELY different values than many Americans and think ENTIRELY different than they do and I’m American! I thank my synapses, dendrons and life’s experiences which made them fire the way they do for this. One thinks through their own language of values which are shaped by culture, family, religion, experience etc. So I would venture to say that you won’t have too many Arabs in the Middle East wanting to lay claim to thinking like those so many of us don’t share our values with.

    They might bop you over your noggin for saying that they think like Westerners (said in jest) Hope you get the gist of what I am trying to say because I’m not in any way trying to bring in inferior vs superior. The mosaic is the paradigm, not absolute sameness. (do you understand what I’m saying?)

    1. I’m not saying that culture, society, religion are the same. I’m merely saying that the values & thought processes are the same. If you concede they’re not then it’s a slippery slope toward Arabs are a bloodthirsty race that devalues life & crap like that vs western thought which values life & civilization.

  7. I agree, we do al bio-chemically think alike. The physical thought process is the same in the species.

    And, yes, you’ve re-stated my point, yet drawn a different conclusion.

    The fact that there are different cultures, customs, religions and social structures means that we interpret actions and events differently.

    There ARE different values in different cultures. You’ll have to define what “basic” values are, as I’m not sure they are all shared in each culture with the same importance.

    You know as well as I do that many cultural differences between people exist. Behavior, dress, and other actions may violate another culture’s “value system”

    As an acute example of this, the value of life and death are treated differently in various cultures, even various parts of the same culture or society.

    As an example take the practice of “honor killings’ among Hindus and Moslems. The murder of (mostly) women who have been accused of pre-marital or extra marital relations happens in some Hindu and Moslem countries. The “basic value” of life seems to take a back seat to the value of “family honor” in these cases.

    You will jump and say these are not basic values… well to you in Seattle they may not be… but to many people in Arab and Moslem countries they are.

    I myself was witness to a Palestinian fellow who had to sleep in my friend’s dorm room in Jeursalem’s Hebrew U. (a few years ago) to escape from his village. His brother killed a neighbor’s son… HE was fair game for a family revenge killing.

    You can’t tell me that society in America behaves the same way (I call this thinking, or processing information experienced in a sociiety) as in India, as in China or as in the Middle East.

    I am NOT making a judgement call and saying one is better than the other, that would be racist… but they are DIFFERENT. I’ve mentioned severe cases to illustrate the point.

    We have to be aware of these differnces, especially in trying to understand these different religions, cultures and societies.

    1. we interpret actions and events differently.

      I do not think so. Our basic outlooks on life are very similar. As I wrote earlier, to argue otherwise is to go down a slippery slope that creates artificial distinctions bet west & east w. the latter being inferior than the former.

      take the practice of “honor killings’

      Honor killings are not part of Islam. Nowhere that I know in the Koran or any holy Muslim text is there a call for such horrors. This is a cultural development among some who may happen to be Muslim. So pls. don’t go there if you are to argue that Islam values life less than other western religions.

      You can’t tell me that society in America behaves the same way

      Revenge is an emotion alive & well in our society & we have far superior technology to punish entire countries for trespasses. We just don’t call it honor killing.

      1. I did some searching and it appears that there is discrepency whether honor killing is an Islamic value.

        Not clear, I would hope it isn’t , but I reference this article that states it is not part of Islam.

        http://islamfinland.wordpress.com/2009/07/31/is-honor-killing-a-part-of-islam/

        Yet, he agrees, as you stated that it:

        “Honor killing is a disease that has spread amongst Muslims unfortunately…”

        Don’t confuse revenge with the concept of Honor Killing. This is not the same.

        This deplorable act of ‘restoring family honor” seems to have spread amongst Moslems… not, Buddists, not Christians and not Jews.

        Why is that, I don’t know… what is it about their location, culture or society that seems to say this is okay… especially if their relgion, Islam says it isn’t?

        1. There is no “discrepancy” about whether honor killing is Islamic. It is NOT.

          This deplorable act of ‘restoring family honor” seems to have spread amongst Moslems

          This is racist & I object to it. First, you yrself said Hindus practice honor killings. Second, honor killing has NOTHING to do with Islam. NOTHING. It is a cultural artifact of particular countries or regions & based on social phenomenon & family relationships. It has nothing to do with religion.

          If you even hint at this connection again esp. w/o any real evidence your privileges will be restricted.

          1. Richard- read my post above again.

            I was re-iterating a quote I sourced just two lines above made by an Moslem in an article saying that Honor Killings are NOT a part of Islam… I actually added the word “seems” and “deplorable”.

            So in essence because I repeated what he or she said in the article, and falsely accusing me of being a racist you are also accusing that Moslem of being racist too?

            Did I WRITE in the above post what you want to ban me fore? NO I didn’t.

          2. No, you said there was a “discrepancy” as to whether Islam was or was not implicated. There was no discrepancy. There are Muslim-hating anti-jihadi racists who know almost nothing about Islam and claim it is at fault for honor killings. There are no Muslim theologians or authorities that I know of who have ever claimed a connection.

            And even if the quote is accurate in saying that honor killing is spreading in Muslim countries (which is highly debatable) that does not mean religion has anything to do w. that phenomenon. At this moment there is someone who is Jewish in whose body cancer is spreading. Does that mean that their religion is at fault?

        2. The term for the kind of blood feud you described earlier (the man hiding in your friend’s dormitory) in most European languages is ‘vendetta’ which is an Italian, and not an ‘Arabic/Muslim’ term. Southern Italy, Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica etc. traditionally have quite a reputation for it (also parts of Greece) but it seems to be dying out.

          As to honor killings of women; I saw a program a while ago on adopted children who were trying to contact their birth parents. On woman had been adopted from Greece in the sixties. A woman came forward who said she could possibly be her mother (to her grief it turned out she wasn’t). She described how as a young unmarried woman she had tried to hide her pregnancy. What stuck in my mind is that she said: “In those days you could still be killed for that”. I looked it up and apparently this is true for Greece but also other areas of southern Europe.

  8. Robin- Thanks for your comments.

    In the past I have met with Moslems and discussed both politics and religion. Interesting experience.

    It has been awhile. This is the first blogger I’ve ever responded to, so I don’t do this often and it is still alittle new.

    We all have limited time, but it would be worth opening up a dialogue with a Moslem blogger or Islamic site.. I’d try and find one that focused more on religion than politics, that’s for sure.

    1. I’d try and find one that focused more on religion than politics, that’s for sure.

      I bet you would. Politics is too scary for you, huh? Did you ever stop to think that most Muslim bloggers will have political views w. which you’ll be in strong disagreement??

      1. Lordy! UP TOP (February 10, 2010 at 12:18 PM), gotta remember to click “reply” or else there is a gremlin that is very active here:)

      2. No Richard politics doesn’t scare me. Nor do exteme leftists such as yourself and your condecending tone.
        Sorry to disappoint you.

        Talking to someone who is willing to share their points of view, albeit different is a good way of learning, as long as there is an understanding to “agree to disagree”.

        I happened to be commenting above on someone’s advice about trying to learn more about Islam the religion… not necessarily the politics associated with it.

        One added comment here about something you said above. Who is the Rabbi you refer to when you said
        “…settler rabbis who claim in the name of Judaism that Palestinian children should be killed because they will grow up to be terrorists”.

        You talk about racist and generalizing… you’ve just lumped every Rabbi who lives in a settlement as condoning murdering children…

        If I had said that about an Immam you’d call me racist, or generalizing… So name the rabbis, quote the source or stop besmerching Rabbis who happen to live in Judea or Shomron. I have never heard any Rabbi use those terms.. anywhere.

        Bide by your own rules.

        1. exteme leftists such as yourself

          This is beyond weak. If you want to persist in mislabeling me you might face moderation here. I do not accept anyone deliberately misrepresenting anyone else’s political views & I detest the term you used. Especially the adjective which is meant as a pejorative.

          And anyone who uses settler terms to describe the Conquered Territories tells us all we need to know about HIS extreme views.

          Rabbi Avraham Shapira of Od Yosef Hai yeshiva in Yitzhar. Instead of making me do the work, next time search the site & you’ll find it yrself. I most certainly did NOT say every rabbi believes as Shapira does. But MANY do, a very significant minority.

          I have never heard any Rabbi use those terms.. anywhere

          Then you are not only very limited in yr exposure to right wing rabbis, you haven’t done enough work reading this site. I’ve written about many rabbis w. similar odious views, & not all settler rabbis by any means. Some fr. YU, Chabad, etc. Quite respectable sources (well, if you’re Orthodox I guess).

          1. So, how would you identify someone who says they are a progressive (critical) Zionist, intersted in resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that posts many articles etc. that are critical of the Israeli right, among other articles, and yet post nothing in criticism about the Palestinian’s or the left?

            If I am wrong about your posts, I publicly apologize. I did try and search your archives for something critical of the Palestinian side of this conflict, but was unsuccessful.

            As for the terms I use- the names Yehuda and Shomron (Judea and Samaria) are names used by Jews (and perhaps non-Jews) for centuries to describe a geographical location in the Land of Israel. The terms have been around way before it was used by any political faction.

            The label “Occupied Territories” is a term recently (40 years or so) created and applied to this area for political ends. Using that term to describe these areas reflects YOUR political point of view.

          2. how would you identify someone who says they are a progressive (critical) Zionist, intersted in resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that posts many articles etc. that are critical of the Israeli right, among other articles, and yet post nothing in criticism about the Palestinian’s or the left?

            I would identify that person the way he himself chooses to be identified–not as an “extreme leftist” but as a progressive Zionist. I don’t write a blog by measuring out my criticism of both sides in a teaspoon. There are thousands of blogs that spout anti-Arab, anti-Muslim, anti-Palestinian rhetoric. I won’t be blazing any trails by going that route. I criticize Palestinians when I feel it’s warranted. But I’m not Palestinian in case you didn’t recognize that fact. I’m Jewish. That’s what I know best. I’m concerned about Israel. That’s also what I know best. Hence I write about what I know & where my passion lies.

            Others have a passion for hating Arabs or whatever–let them take up that cause. They don’t need me.

            I did try and search your archives for something critical of the Palestinian side of this conflict, but was unsuccessful.

            Doesn’t mean it’s not there. Just means you haven’t found it.

            the names Yehuda and Shomron (Judea and Samaria) are names used by Jews (and perhaps non-Jews) for centuries

            That is ahistorical & bogus. These are names that began to be used only after the 1967 war and are NOT used by most Jews or even most Israelis. Using those words marks you indeliby as a support of the settler movement, which I find odious. The fact that in the Biblical era there may have been kingdoms with those names has no bearing on the modern era. The current usage is purely a political/ideological/theological one.

            The label “Occupied Territories” is a term recently (40 years or so) created and applied to this area for political ends. Using that term to describe these areas reflects YOUR political point of view.

            No, this is the WORLD’s pt of view on the Territories. It is also the term used by the majority of Jews & Israelis who reject the settler regime. It’s most unfortunate that you’ve bought into it hook line & sinker. But nothing you say henceforth here will show you as anything other than pro-settler. Too bad. You seem more intelligent & a cut above for that. But I guess I was wrong.

          3. I’ll take your word for the blogs regarding the Palestinians, didn’t find them but okay.

            The only reason I even started reading this site was because your site name caught my attention while doing research for a project… “Tikkun Olam- Making the World a Better Place” I thought that meant pointing out issues on both sides of the fence…make the public aware of issues that both Israelis and Palestinians should address to make the world a better place… you’ve made your orientation clear, so I won’t expect more from you.

            No, I haven’t bought into it “hook line and sinker”, yet I do do support the settler movement, which is NOT one group, or just one thinking, but several. Frankly I’m still a bit ambivalent on some issues.

            Still, there are settlements that were Jewish before 1948 and ended up under Jordanian occupation during the War of Independence. Many Israelis (even some “leftists”) believe these areas should remain Jewish since they were re-established after 1967. The Gush Etzion area (South of Bethlehem) is an example. Others also want to insure uninhibited access to the Jewish Holy sites in Bethlehem (Raches’s Tomb) and Hebron (Tomb of the Patriachs/Matriachs) among other sites is a must.
            And there are still others…

            Thus, if I were to call this area anything, it is “disputed territories” at the most. And since the ’67 war ended up with Israel having control over the West Bank area and Resolution 242- This territory waits for a negotiated, secure, peace between the two sides… then according to that resolution, withdrawl from some of these parts can begin.

            Attitudes even remotely close to what the two jokers at the top of this stream believe or the attitude that Israel should simply ” uncondtionally pull out of the territories”
            completely” are two definite “no starts” for either side, I believe.

          4. If you have a child which is abused by its parents there is a severe imbalance of power between the two sides. No one would insist that criticism of the parents should be balanced with an equal amount of criticism of the child, as the child too misbehaves. Everyone would focus on the abuse by the parents.

            In the Israeli/Palestinian conflict there is one side which has had the upper hand in the last 60 years, causing enormous harm to the other side. In such a situation it is nonsensical to mete out equal criticism to both sides. Only a change in the behavior of the powerful party in the conflict can solve anything, so that is what you focus on.

            And I hope you understand now that in many cases there is nothing innocent about redeploying obsolete place names, even if they did indeed exist sometime in the past.

            When the modern Greeks refuse to say ‘Istanbul’ and use ‘Constantinople’ instead, it means that they hate to acknowledge that the city is Turkish. Using the terms Judea and Samaria because you hate to acknowledge that the territories are occupied definitely belongs in the same category.

          5. I thought that meant pointing out issues on both sides of the fence…make the public aware of issues that both Israelis and Palestinians should address to make the world a better place

            Why would you expect that the mission of my blog would be to satisfy your own personal interpretation of what tikun olam is? Don’t you find that in the least bit chutzpadik?? If you want to further yr own definition of this then create yr own project, write yr own blog. If you come here you’re not going to hear yr own agenda parroted back to you. You’re going to hear my perspective.

            I do do support the settler movement, which is NOT one group, or just one thinking, but several. Frankly I’m still a bit ambivalent on some issues.

            Thanks for acknowledging the obvious. So I see the settler movement isn’t one group or agenda but several, each one more right wing & extreme nationalist than the other. Sure there are a few Israelis living in settlements like Myron Joseph or Menachem Froman whose views of issues I can appreciate. But he is in an extreme minority unfortunately & you certainly wouldn’t find anything in common with him.

            As for ambivalence, what do you want–a medal for the fact that there may be an idea here or there or a murder or shooting or burning that might even turn your stomach?

            there are settlements that were Jewish before 1948

            Just as there were hundreds of Israeli Palestinian villages that were Arab before 1948. I’ll make you a deal. If you agree to restore all those communities along w. their inhabitants to them then I’ll work my butt off on behalf of Jewish settlement in Gush Etzion. Is it a deal? If not, why not?

            Many Israelis (even some “leftists”) believe these areas should remain Jewish

            Name one. You can’t because there isn’t one unless you’re so right wing that you’re going to try to pass off Benny Morris & his pro Nakba views as “leftist.”

            it is “disputed territories” at the most.

            No, not disputed. That again is a political-settler coinage. The correct term in Hebrew is “conquered” territories or “occupied.” This is the term recognized by Israelis, Jews and people the world over & follows commonly accepted terms of international law.

          6. I’m going to have to place a note on my keyboard to remind me, CLICK “reply” or the poltergeist at work here gets active (Richard, what is up with this glitch?) Comment meant to be “here”

            Perhaps David would be in favor of the One State Solution then where all peoples have equal voting rights and everyone lives side by side with the Right of Return which is enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights being implemented.

            What say you David?

            Wouldn’t that solution fulfill your desires?

          7. Richard:

            “Why would you expect that the mission of my blog would be to satisfy your own personal interpretation of what tikun olam is?”

            I didn’t see it as my personal interpretation. Hazal coined the phrase centuries before you were born. It has a certain defined meaning- that’s what I was looking at. Then because the implication of your blog title, using a MIshnaic, religious term connected to a very nice concept of “Making the world a better place” built up some expectation, which you have fallen way short of. I get it Richard- I see where you are coming from… so no need to expound on it. I take what you say at it’s face value now and don’t expect anything else.

            “I’ll make you a deal”… you make it seem so simple. Let’s start with a basic. Just start by working on getting the Palestinians to recognize and agree that the State of Israel is the Jewish Homeland. If they did that in 1948 there wouldn’t have been “occupied territories”, or a refugee issue to talk about. Once we start with this, we can move on to other issues.

            “Name one. You can’t because there isn’t one”

            Did not mean to mislead you, but I didn’t mean an official representative, I meant people I know and work with who are secular and VERY Left in thinking. Much to my surprise several of them have told me that they consider Gush Etzion the “heart” of Israel “soul” and though they disagree with almost all settler and rightest thinking… Gush Etzion is, in their mind, part and parcel of Israel proper (Gods’ honest truth) The only explanation I can think of is of the circumstances with how Gush Etzion fell to the Jordanian Legion in 1948. I never asked them for an explanation. It is to this phenomena I was referring to.

          8. From Modoweiss on: Under the Cover of War: the Zionist Expulsion of the Palestinians, by Rosemarie Esber

            “[T]he creation of the Palestinian Arab refugees began in the convergence of a chaotic civil conflict, British inaction to suppress the escalating violence, and the Jewish Agency’s seizure of the opportunity presented by the cover of war to effect long-held aims of political Zionism: the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine with a population practically devoid of non-Jews. This was done by employing systematic and violent intimidation to drive out the native Palestinian Arab population, which consisted largely of disempowered women, children, and elderly people incapable of resisting.”

            During this civil war period, Esber writes, “Zionist Jewish military organizations forced more than 400,000 Palestinian Arab inhabitants from their homes in about 225 villages, towns and cities in Palestine.” That comprises approximately half of the total number of Palestinians made refugees during the creation of the State of Israel, as well as half of the depopulated Palestinian cities and villages, the latter largely destroyed as part of the systematic campaign to erase Palestinian society.

            Israel’s official narrative has long held that the “refugee problem” was the result of a war sparked in the wake of Israel’s 14 May 1948 declaration of independence on the eve of the British withdrawal, and what Israel describes as an Arab invasion designed to extinguish the nascent state. The implication of this claim is that had the Arab states not invaded on 15 May, Palestinians might not have become refugees. But given the sheer scale of the expulsions prior to May 1948, the Arab intervention might more accurately be described as a long overdue and ineffectual attempt to halt a well-planned campaign of ethnic cleansing that had been proceeding unchecked for months.”

            You will probably dismiss all of this as propaganda but I personally know someone whose mother in law was a member of the Haganah. She said that their orders were to take one or two Palestinians in the towns or villages they entered and execute them “so that the rest would take off on their own account”.

          9. Elisabeth– I did reply to your comments, but I hit a wrong button so it seems and it sits farther up in this stream (can’t figure out how that hapened)- hope you see it.

          10. Let me try my hand at that:

            During the German ‘occupation’, Dutch Nazi’s called the Netherlands ‘Dietsland’, a term with very old roots indeed (see the English word ‘Dutch’). In other words: This term was around way before it was used by any political faction.

            Most people however, used ‘Holland’ or ‘the Netherlands’ and referred to themselves as ‘occupied’. But that was a term recently (since 1940 or so) created, and applied to the area of Dietsland for political ends. Using that term to describe these areas reflected an Anti-German political point of view.

  9. David, there are NUMEROUS fatwas issued against terrorism. There are NUMEROUS Muslim organizations who have issued statements. I’d take time to list link after link but it would alert Richard’s comments here for moderation. If you want to contact me go through Richard and I’ll be happy to point you in the right direction. Richard you have my permission to put David in touch with me.

    One thing I’m going to say right up front here David is that all three of the Abrahamic faiths have their degrees. I’m Christian myself, Catholic actually. Catholocism ITSELF has it’s own wide range. One can look at the Christian Bible and justify just about any act of aggression they want to perpetrate as well. I don’t call putting Bible verses on guns used by the military exactly Jesus’s teachings. Oh well, maybe that’s just me:) (actually no it’s not-and actually there are those who believe otherwise)

  10. Perhaps David would be in favor of the One State Solution then where all peoples have equal voting rights and everyone lives side by side with the Right of Return which is enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights being implemented.

    What say you David?

    Wouldn’t that solution fulfill your desires?

    1. Robin- Sorry it took me awhile to reply. Life is sometimes busy and complicated.

      A one state solution is not the answer. I think both sides “agree” on this point.

      As I noted in a reply to Elisabeth, Israel is a Jewish State, with rights and freedom for all religions.. but still a Jewish State.

      There are Palestinians that will not accept this, and those that do may not want to live under that rule… they want their own government and autonomy.

      1. …Israel is a Jewish State, with rights and freedom for all religions.. but still a Jewish State.

        That is a very incomplete & hence inaccurate statement. Israel is a Jewish supremacist & ethnocratic state w. superior rights & freedoms for Jews & vastly inferior ones for Arabs.

        1. Would you please expound on this seemingly racist accusation?

          Where is there any offical document that says Israeli Jews have more rights and freedoms than Israeli Arabs?

          Excluding the Right of Return for every Jew to become a citizen, which is part of the concept of a Jewish State- which was approved by the UN in admitting Israel as a member – I am interested to know what laws exist that put Israeli Jews above Arabs as far as rights and freedoms.

          If you have exception to the Right of Return for Jews to the State (Land) of Israel… can you please tell me how you are a Zionist?

          I really would be interested to know… I don’t claim to know all Israeli law and it would be important to learn about it if there truly are discriminating laws against Israeli Arabs.

          1. Would you please expound on this seemingly racist accusation?

            Where is there any offical document that says Israeli Jews have more rights and freedoms than Israeli Arabs?

            Omigod! Where have you been living since 1948??? On a diff. planet obviously & perhaps diff. solar system. Do you really know ANYTHING about Israeli society? Have you read books that talk about the nature of Israeli society or its ethnic composition? I’d strongly recommend you start by reading through my Tikun Olam Amazon store which recommends books on this subject. You clearly are much more ignorant than even I presumed on this subject if you could ask this question w. a straight face.

            the Right of Return for every Jew to become a citizen, which is part of the concept of a Jewish State- which was approved by the UN in admitting Israel as a member

            Wow, now the UN has specifically approved & validated the Right of Return. Where did you get that from? Or did you just make that up yrself. If so, that’s actually pretty nifty Hasbara 101. Not convincing, but possibly persuasive to a more innocent audience.

            I’ve written about 25 times in various comments listing the various ways in which Jewish rights predominate in Israel. This is so well known that even Israeli Jewish rightists accept the notion & even approve of it.

            First, Israeli Palestinians cannot own or lease land. Jews can. Israeli Palestinian political parties are excluded fr. governing coalitions. Israeli Palestinian villages receive a pittance in state subsidy compared to much richer subsidies for Jewish towns & cities. Arab schools are worse because more poorly funded. Less Arabs attend university. Medical facilities & infrastructure in Arab communities are far worse than in Jewish ones. The Arab poverty rate is much higher than Jewish. There are more Arab unemployed than Jewish and Arabs are routinely confined to certain types of less skilled jobs than Jews. Arabs never receive building permits for new homes or other infrastructure projects. Jews do routinely. Even if Arabs wish to serve in the IDF they are refused service in the elite units, which are reserved for Jews.

            If you have exception to the Right of Return for Jews to the State (Land) of Israel… can you please tell me how you are a Zionist?

            I’ve written about this very often in this blog & I’m too tired to repeat it for the 10th or 20th time. Read the blog, do a Google search. If you still don’t find it e mail me & I’ll get a link. And read the Magnes Zionist blog. If you don’t understand how redefining the Right of Return can still entitle someone to remain a Zionist then as I said above you need to do a lot more reading. Start with the Zionist Idea by Hertzberg & READ, my friend. You have a lot of reading & learning to do.

  11. Elisabeth- Interesting article. It unfortunately does smack of having an anti-Israel agenda.

    First of all this article uses a word Richard would not want on his blog… “ethnic cleansing”- that already makes this article suspect and puts the writer’s credibility in question.

    If Israel had wanted to do THAT, then why in the world would it leave any Arabs in it’s population? Why are there “Israeli Arabs” with rights and privledges? Why would leaders, such as the Mayor of Haifa in 1948 plead with the Arab residence NOT to flee? Why would the following sections be placed in the country’s Declaration of Independence if there wasn’t a desire to have Arabs and Christians within it’s population:

    Here is a quote:

    “WE APPEAL – in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months – to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

    WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East. ”

    Again- the Arabs out-right rejected Israel’s right to exist and Arab armies invaded. Do not think that there were not riots and acts of violence by Arabs throughout “Palestine” after the 1947 UN acceptance of the Partiion Plan either. They immediately started to riot.

    When war broke out in May and invading armies began attacking there wasn’t much time for peaceful discussion with Arab villages etc. This was now a war for Israel’s survival.

    Combined with Arab leader calls to leave this area of conflict so the invading (Arab) armies can freely conquer the Jews (and then they could return, victoriously to their homes), and yes some forced eviction of Arabs from key villages- more for military strategic issues than simple expulsion because of hatred-. Now you have the beginning of a refugee problem.

    The brunt of the blame does not fall with Israel, or a bogus claim that it wanted to rid it’s borders of Arabs… look at the Declaration… look at the fact that there IS a vibrant growing population of Israeli Arabs (some even involved in Israeli politics and Knesset Members).

    Are their problems to sort out between Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews–you better believe it. Nobody would be fooling anybody by denying it.

    But dont’ start from a supposition that Israel wants a Jewish State for Jews only. That would be racist and a vast majority of Israelis (religous and secular alike) would oppose that type of society.

    And to tie it back to this stream… there is no place in the State of Israel for promoting the type of idiotic oubursts the those two jokers spewed, other than Israel being a democracy where even jerks like them can speak their mind.

    Here is a link to the full Declaration of Independence: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/Declaration+of+Establishment+of+State+of+Israel.htm

    1. Dear David,
      thank you for your message. I have been busy (as I am sure you are too, of course!) but I have been thinking about your message and also of my ideas about it. I do intend to give you a reply, and I will, but it may take some time. (I hope you clicked the box that will automatically send you replies to this thread by e-mail…)

      1. Elisabeth- Yes, I can relate. This can be time consuming and we all have lives to live outside this.

        This time I did mark “Notify me of followup comments via email”, so perhaps send your reply via this blog not.

        1. I still plan to answer you David. (I did not forget.) But my grandmother fell down a while ago. At first she was determined to get well again, but instead she got weaker and weaker. (She was 97 years old, and falling down at that age very often means the end, as I have heard.) We took turns staying with her. She was a remarkable woman (involved in the resistance -at first little things, like distributing illegal newspapers and forged food stamps to families who were hiding people, that kind of thing – until she and my grandfather decided to hide a Jewish baby, then she quit everything else). In later years she got involved in helping immigrants who had a hard time finding their way around the Dutch bureaucracy and many, many other people. It is still hard to believe she is really gone and will never urge me to be a good person again. (Oh boy, she was really good at that, it never ended!)

          1. By the way (to put things in perspective), my grandfather also signed an ‘Arian declaration’ in order to keep his job as a teacher (you had to state that you yourself, nor your parents or grandparents were Jews). The line between resistance and collaboration is often hard to draw. It is not for nothing that since WW2, in contemporary Dutch the expression for a person in an impossible situation is “mayor in war-time”. This refers to the difficult choice that many mayors of smaller towns (who were not immediately replaced by Nazi’s) had to make: Do I stay on, and try to soften measures as much as I can, or do I step down, and let myself be replaced by a hard-core Nazi?

          2. This was also the justification that Judenrat members used to explain to themselves why they aided the Nazis in governing the ghettos. In truth, there was little Judenrat members could do to help anyone. They nibbled around the edges of evil for a crumb of hope or justice or salvation when little or none was in the offing.

          3. Your point sounds right… I’m just not sure in what context you’ve placed it here.

            The way it sits on the thread, It is unclear what you are commenting about.

            The J-rt had a terrible job to do and left to the same situation I don’t know how well any of us would fare having to make the decisions they did or didn’t make.

          4. There is life oustide these blog pages… no need to apologize for not responding.

            Sorry to learn of your loss. Your grandmother sounds like she was a special soul, I’m sure you will miss her.

            When time and other elements are right I’m sure you will respond… I’d be interested to read what you have to say.

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