18 thoughts on “Shalit-Barghouti Deal Imminent? – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. Richard,

    Respectfully, I believe it is not correct to refer the taking of Gilad Shalit (who was a soldier and not a civilian) as a kidnapping which has a completely different connotation altogether.

    Uri Avnery, a prominent Israeli peace activist covered the above quite extensively in his article “A Story of Betrayal” where he felt quite strongly that the term “capture” would be more accurate under the circumstances:

    http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1254590727

    1. Agreed 100%. Gilad Shalit is an active duty soldier who was captured in a military action. His correct status is prisoner of war, not a kidnap victim.

  2. While “no man left behind” is admirable in many ways, what’s with the Israeli government and this mania with getting their guy back at heavy price if necessary? 400+ prisoners and Barghouti just for that guy?

    It reminds me of when they released that child killer Samir Kuntar and four other guys in exchange for a pair of corpses.

    1. Brett,

      Were the 400+ prisoners and Barghouti dealt through the Israeli justice system and properly sentenced to imprisonment OR were they simply abducted and detained at Israel’s pleasure?

    2. You have no idea what you’re talking about Brett. This is entirely within the normal range of prisoner exchanges. Go back and you’ll see historically what Israel has given up & gotten in return. There’s a long history of this sort of thing. Besides, if you dislike the terms so much perhaps you can get yrself on the negotiating team if things fail again this time. I’m sure they’d love to have a big tough guy American like you to tell them Gilad Shalit is a little pissant they shouldn’t give a crap about. Maybe you can even say that to the Shalits. It should go over well.

      1. You have no idea what you’re talking about Brett. This is entirely within the normal range of prisoner exchanges.

        A history of bad exchanges does not make another bad exchange a good exchange. They’re exchanging one (potentially) living captive for hundreds of Palestinian captives (including at least one very important one in Barghouti). That’s a highly asymmetrical deal.

        Go back and you’ll see historically what Israel has given up & gotten in return. There’s a long history of this sort of thing.

        That’s why I pointed out the Samir Kuntar example – it’s a seriously asymmetrical exchange, and they have a history of doing that. Thanks for proving my point. My question was, why are they doing these asymmetrical exchanges? Why are they willing to give up hundreds of captives for one guy (who hopefully is alive at this point), or five living guys (including a child killer and terrorist) for two corpses earlier on? It sounds like a bad mentality, to be honest – “no man left behind” taken to a bad extreme.

        Besides, if you dislike the terms so much perhaps you can get yrself on the negotiating team if things fail again this time. I’m sure they’d love to have a big tough guy American like you to tell them Gilad Shalit is a little pissant they shouldn’t give a crap about. Maybe you can even say that to the Shalits. It should go over well.

        *Yawn* Get back to me when you have an actual point, and not just the usual snide personal attacks. I’ve made my argument.

        1. It sounds like a bad mentality, to be honest

          You have an incredible amt. of nerve. You really do. You live a comfortable life wherever the hell you live and yet you would substitute yr alleged knowledge and experience for that of a people which has fought continuously for 60 yrs or longer in the face of terror, wars, etc. & you would have the unmitigated gall to tell them how they should conduct themselves when one of their young soldiers is captured. Where do you get off? Really where do you get the nerve to sit there pontificating?

          Get back to me when you have an actual point

          My pt is that you’re a cruel, ignorant, self-righteous, smug SOB and you’re wearing out my patience. Why don’t you go join the IDF, get yrself captured & then when Hamas videotapes you big tough guy tell the camera that yr family & gov’t shouldn’t negotiate to free you unless it’s an even exchange. And that when Hamas refuses the terms that you’ll be happy to take a bullet for yr stupid arbitrary, meaningless principles of symmetrical prisoner exchange.

          1. Where do you get off? Really where do you get the nerve to sit there pontificating?

            Oh, go fuck yourself, Richard. Anyone with a brain could see it’s a bad deal that encourages kidnapping in the future by these groups in the hope that they can then use them for this type of thing. And that type of shit has led to wars in the past – remember how the 2006 War got started after years of Hezbollah attempts to kidnap Israeli soldiers patrolling the border area?

            If anything, the Israelis should be more aware of this than others. You didn’t see them completely lose their shit and make a bad deal like this when the Munich kidnappings happened, did you?

            My pt is that you’re a cruel, ignorant, self-righteous, smug SOB and you’re wearing out my patience.

            Ha! It takes a big man to insult someone from behind a comment rules system that bans insulting him back. But if you’d rather sit here and bathe in a circle-jerk, feel free.

          2. You’ve been banned for an outrageous violation of my comment policy.

            Anyone with a brain could see it’s a bad deal that encourages kidnapping

            You know incredibly little about the history of hostage taking. Israel has experimented w. every possible response to such attacks. When it chose to ignore them & refused to negotiate it often ended with the hostage/s being killed. When it attempted to liberate hostages it often ended w. some being killed. After such experiences Israel decided it had to negotiate. But you wouldn’t know much about that because you think you know everything.

            remember how the 2006 War got started after years of Hezbollah attempts to kidnap Israeli soldiers

            More incomplete history…Hezbollah attacked Israeli soldiers but it didn’t start a war. Israel’s response was what started a war. That was Israel’s doing, not Hezbollah’s.

            You didn’t see them completely lose their shit and make a bad deal like this when the Munich kidnappings happened, did you?

            Diff. situation entirely. In that case, an attempt to liberate the hostages led to all being killed by apparently inept German forces. If there had been Israeli hostages alive after the kidnapping, who knows what Germany or Israel would have agreed to. But most assuredly Israel would not have seen any of them return if it had refused to negotiate as you so sagely advise.

            It takes a big man to insult someone from behind a comment rules system that bans insulting him back.

            I save the insults for right asses like yrself who are willing to expend every Israelis’ blood but their own. People like you really burn me up. Shed yr own blood for Israel & then you can advise Israel on when or how to shed its own.

          3. It was coming one way or another. Have fun with your unrealistic hopes for a two-state solution, getting past the Right of Return, and hope you don’t end up in a pettier version of the Pakistan India feud.

          4. Oh, one more thing – have a good time getting past the “unified Jerusalem” issue. Religious fanaticism and unrealistic hopes are a bitch, aren’t they?

            Well, that’s it. Adios, Richard.

        2. a seriously asymmetrical exchange, and they have a history of doing that.

          That’s pretty funny given the seriously – as in hugely – asymmetrical number of kidnappees (as in non-combatants, including children), “scurity” detainees, political and other prisoners held by Israel at any given time. When one compares the enormously disproportionate number of Palestinian and Lebanese imprisoned by Israel to the number of Israelis imprisoned by everyone else the exchange does not seem at all out of line.

    3. The case against Samir Kuntar is sufficiently problematical that it is not reasonable to refer to him definitively as a child killer. The same cannot be said for many members of Israel’s military, and it certainly cannot be said for Israel’s military command.

  3. Seems that Israel is in a state of panic to get the old nowhere leading “negotiation” show back on the stage. The arrogant attitude and behaviour during the first months of Netanyahu’s government has been really costly to Israeli foreign policy and image. Hamas and others have finally realized that they do not need rockets when they “have” such ultimate weapons like Lieberman and gentile baby killing allowing rabbis.

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