35 thoughts on “Human Rights Watch Criticizes U.S. for Torpedoing Goldstone Report – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. “Yesterday, I heard Jessica Montell of B’Tselem and Fred Abrahams of Human Rights Watch talk for 90 minutes about the importance of the Goldstone Report.”

    Is there an online transcript? Montell was quoted the other day as being somewhat critical of the Goldstone Report, which surprised me, since what B’Tselem has reported seemed consistent with Goldstone. Maybe the quote was inaccurate or out of context.

    1. The website (JSF) where I read that Montell was critical of Goldstone is doing a partial retraction (and maybe a full one when he finds out more)–

      link

    2. This is based on an awful Jerusalem Post article distorting B’Tselem & Montell’s real views of the rpt. She forced the Post to publish an op ed of hers the next day in which she lays out her real views of Goldstone, which are largely favorable. Frankly, I’m shocked that Jews Sans Frontieres would believe anything published in JPost, especially when it is at variance with reality as we know it. There are some stories written in the Post which are interesting or useful, but only when they confirm facts or perspectives one already knows have some credibility.

      1. Thanks for the link. There was one part of Montell’s article that I found a little disturbing–her claim that the evidence didn’t justify the sweeping conclusion that Israel was trying to punish civilians. She admits it’s possible and wants further investigation, but though further investigation would be welcome, I think the actions speak for themselves–besides, though I don’t have the quotes handy, I think there are quotes from Israeli military figures suggesting that they did intend to punish civilians. Quite apart from the fact that it’s been a pattern with many of Israel’s actions all along.

        Not that the US is all that different. It’s a fact about Western countries that they sometimes target civilians while claiming that they don’t do it. Our sanctions on Iraq were meant to hurt civilians and at times people admitted it, but most of the time it was denied. It’s a game we play so we can pretend there’s a vast gulf between the tactics we employ and the tactics used by terrorists.

        1. Israel plays the same game, except they keep up the pretense in the face of evidence to the contrary, which is infuriating. They also dehumanize the Palestinians to the point where it all just insults the intelligence.

          You’re right, they’re pretty up front about the collective punishment thing. All the Zionists I know blame the Gazans for their suffering, saying it’s their fault for electing Hamas and for refusing to rise up and kick them out of power. They tout the puppet PA government as good little children, and why can’t Hamas be more like them?

        2. Frankly, I heard the interview with Montell that was sponsored by Taanit Tzedek & though I agreed w. most of what she said, there were a few areas where I take exception to what she said & believes. She seems to believe that it is still possible for Israel to investigate itself & believes an ICC type investigation is counter productive. I thoroughly disagree, though of course like her I would PREFER that Israeli investigate itself. Unlike her though, I don’t have any faith that this is possible.

          She is VERY cautious. One can understand why given how controversial B’Tselem’s work is. But that doesn’t mean we have to agree w. her 100%.

  2. The cruel irony of the following conflicting statements shouldn’t be lost on anyone:

    “Mr. Khraishi, the Palestinian ambassador, said that…a delay gives the Israelis and Palestinians time to take up another recommendation in the report: that both sides set up independent investigation panels to look into possible war crimes.”

    I see no conflicting statements here. It is very clear to me. The PA will use the report as a trump card against Hamas in their upcoming unification talks – further investigation will find Hamas guilty of crimes on Fath Gaza residents. Then once they unite, they both will turn around and use it against Israel after padding it a bit. Then the Muslim world will turn around and use the findings as a model to blackmail the US in regard to Afghanistan and Irak.
    Goldstone has created a Golem. What I do question however is his rationale for rushing like that on the eve of a month of holidays, when he knows a response by Israelis is not possible. I also question his premise that Gaza is occupied territory. This won’t wash with the Israelis so they’ll naturally view the rest of it with suspicion.

    There is currently a push for an independent investigation maybe like the one after the second Lebanese war.

    1. The interesting thing to observe here is how Israel plays Hamas against the PA, and vice versa, knowing that a unified Palestinian government would spell the end of Israel’s power over the Palestinian people and the end of the occupation. As long as Israel can keep the two sides fighting, it can continue to steal Palestinian land and resources and eventually ethnically cleanse the whole area of Arabs.

      I sometimes wonder if it is possible that Israel actually covertly supports Hamas. It would certainly explain where the white phosphorus that landed in southern Israel during Cast Lead came from. It’s not that farfetched a notion, considering the fact that Hamas got its start from support given to it by the Israeli government back in the 1980’s.

      1. If you really want to get paranoid, it wouldn’t surprise me if Israel is covertly supporting the Al-Qaeda offshoots that are the main opposition to Hamas in the strip these days.

        1. Nothing would surprise me at this point. The more splintering, and the more dead Gazans, the better it is for Israel. If it can be said that the US supports terrorism in other countries, why not in Gaza? The CIA is notorious for this.

    2. Gaza is indeed under occupation. Israel controls its land borders, its airspace, and its waterways, as well as its utilities. The IDF can and do enter Gaza at will and arrest its citizens. These factors constitute occupation as set forth by international law.

      1. “Israel controls its its land borders, its airspace, and its waterways, as well as its utilities.”
        And so does Egypt . Egypt “controls” 43% of its fuel while Israel “controls” the other 57%. Egypt controls the Gaza border including the maritime border just like any sovereign nation is supposed to do and -yes including Israel. As to the utilities, what keeps them from Egypt or developing other sources? The West Bank and Gaza are still getting their produce from the settlements growers in the West Bank. Why? Why can’t they grow their own?

        “These factors constitute occupation as set forth by international law”
        Could you please provide the reference?

        1. Judge Goldstone’s report, in the introduction, relates the criterion for occupation and includes what I said earlier about Gaza fitting the definition.

          With Gaza having been under blockade for so long, and especially in the aftermath of Operation Cast Lead, they have not been in a position to develop any resources of their own. Israeli farmers in the West Bank are given preference when it comes to exporting produce; in many cases, West Bank Palestinian farmers’ trucks are held up at the border crossings and not allowed to pass through until their cargo has spoiled.

          Israel also has control of the water supplies in the West Bank and has taken the largest share for itself. Part of the argument over the separation wall is that it has been erected in areas where water supplies have ended up on the Israeli side of the barrier.

          You may ask these questions of me or google them, which I suggest you may wish to do. This comment post is for responses to Mr. Silverstein’s blog, and the subject is the Goldstone Report and how it has been condemned by the US, and the subsequent criticism of this condemnation by HRW.

        2. From the Goldstone Report:

          276. Israel has without doubt at all times relevant to the mandate of the Mission exercised
          effective control over the Gaza Strip. The Mission is of the view that the circumstances of this
          control establish that the Gaza Strip remains occupied by Israel. The provisions of the Fourth
          Geneva Convention therefore apply at all relevant times with regard to the obligations of Israel
          towards the population of the Gaza Strip.

          277. Despite Israel’s declared intention to relinquish its position as an occupying Power by
          evacuating troops and settlers from the Gaza Strip during its 2005 “disengagement”,162 the
          international community continues to regard it as the occupying Power.163

          278. Given the specific geopolitical configuration of the Gaza Strip, the powers that Israel
          exercises from the borders enable it to determine the conditions of life within the Gaza Strip.
          Israel controls the border crossings (including to a significant degree the Rafah crossing to
          Egypt, under the terms of the Agreement on Movement and Access164) and decides what and
          who gets in or out of the Gaza Strip. It also controls the territorial sea adjacent to the Gaza Strip
          and has declared a virtual blockade and limits to the fishing zone, thereby regulating economic
          activity in that zone. It also keeps complete control of the airspace of the Gaza Strip, inter alia,
          through continuous surveillance by aircraft and unmanned aviation vehicles (UAVs) or drones. It
          makes military incursions and from time to time hit targets within the Gaza Strip. No-go areas are declared within the Gaza Strip near the border where Israeli settlements used to be and enforced by the Israeli armed forces. Furthermore, Israel regulates the local monetary market
          based on the Israeli currency (the new sheqel) and controls taxes and custom duties.

          If you still doubt this constitutes “occupation” then I’d ask you to consider what would you think if the tables were reversed. If Gaza had control over Israel’s borders, its airspace and its coastline, and exhibited the same control over Israeli civilian life as Israel exerts over life in Gaza, would you be arguing that Israel was NOT occupied? I doubt it.

          As to the West Bank situation, I assume that you are aware that Israel controls all the aquifers there, and prohibits Palestinians from digging new wells, and unevenly allocates much more water to the Jewish settlements there than it does to Palestinian villages. If not, this would be a good article to read.

          http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060626/taamallah

          And I’m sure you are aware that the “Separation” Wall has in many places separated Palestinian farmers from their lands. Also the multitudinous Israeli checkpoints within the West Bank cut- off or severely limit transportation of goods within the West Bank. Produce is perishable and if it can’t be delivered within a reasonably short amount of time it will simply rot.

          1. “Despite Israel’s declared intention to relinquish its position as an occupying Power by evacuating troops and settlers from the Gaza Strip during its 2005 “disengagement”,162 the
            international community continues to regard it as the occupying Power”
            I looked for information on the subject and I think I understand the legal point now – despite the way Goldstone put it. What makes Israel an occupying power in Gaza is not actual occupation but the fact that it is under humanitarian obligations. And it is under humanitarian obligations because the people living in Gaza today never had sovereignty before over their territory. Conversely, the Americans in Iraq or Afghanistan once they have relinquished authority are not considered an occupying power even though they are physically present and control the skys etc. because the Iraqis held sovereignty over the country before it was occupied.

            Regarding the water: I read that article and it is very plausible that the water company cut the water off. They often do that also in Israel proper when the municipal authorities don’t pay and accumulate a big debt. That is the only reason water would be cut off.
            Currently, we have been under water rationing law for the past three months due to the drought. We use rain water and recycled water.

            As to the shekel being the currency, they probably have no choice. The PA forwards the salaries to Gaza in shekels, those who work in Israel get evidently their salaries in shekels, and those who get their social security checks having worked in Israel lawfully get them in Shekels. They get a lot of money in dollars and tomans so they can use that currency if they want. Or they should start producing something beside rockets and create their own currency.

            What I would do? Certainly not go on a jihad and terrorize innocent civilians across the border and risk a war and a blockade as a consequence.

          2. What makes Israel an occupying power in Gaza is not actual occupation but the fact that it is under humanitarian obligations.

            No, Silvia. Not surprisingly you have got it exactly reversed. Israel has humanitarian obligations in the Gaza Strip because it occupies the Gaza Strip. But that is explained very clearly in the Report, so I think you are simply being disingenuous.

        3. Why can’t they grow their own?

          Think what a farmer needs & tell me where Gazan farmers will get it: electricity, water, seeds, fertilizer. Would Israel permit any of these items to enter Gaza in enough quantity to allow for farming?

          Don’t bother trying to prove to Silvia that Gaza is occupied under international law. It’s a lost cause. She just wants to argue & not to actually absorb information or knowledge. But Silvia, even most serious Israeli military analysts who are not pro Israel apologists accept this claim. And you can simply Google the terms & find out the argument for yrself. We’re not here to do work for you that you can just as easily do yrself.

          1. “She just wants to argue & not to actually absorb information or knowledge.”

            Excuse me, but information such as Gaza is occupied because “wikipedia said it was occupied in 2004” or last year news such as “they have no fertilizer” , that’s propaganda and not information.
            Information needs updating every once in while, particularly in a region where things change every minute.

    3. further investigation will find Hamas guilty of crimes on Fath Gaza residents.

      I think you’ve taken leave of yr senses.

      Then the Muslim world will turn around and use the findings as a model to blackmail the US

      And you’re a disgusting racist to boot.

      I always knew you were a hasbarist, but I didn’t think till now you were a despicable racist to boot.

      rushing like that on the eve of a month of holidays, when he knows a response by Israelis is not possible.

      That’s laughable. Israel has been preparing for the Goldstone rpt. for months & didn’t need a Jewish holiday to silence it regarding the rpt. And btw, Israel’s foreign ministry doesn’t shut down on chagim. Many Jewish progressive blogs have had MFA ads providing hasbara responses to Goldstone for weeks now.

      1. No, YOU are a despicable racist and in more ways than one.

        You are a racist because you wouldn’t hold Muslims to the same standards as Jews.

        You and your ilk are racists by dismissing and ignoring the suffering of Sderot civilians because of their origin – which every Jew who has spent time in Israel knows full well.

        Racist.

        1. Which Muslims are you talking about, Silvia? And in what sense? Not all residents of Gaza are Muslims. Your bringing religion into the discussion, within this context, is rather onerous to say the least and I see your Jew and Muslim comparison as nothing less than racism. We are talking about two political and social entities here – Gazans and Israelis – not two religions.

          Your argument fails miserably, needless to say. If the best you can do is find the “suffering” of the citizens of Sderot comparable to the sheer inhuman misery of the Gazans, I suggest you need to get off this thread and take your lame excuses for arguments somewhere else.

          This is Mr. Silverstein’s blog, and your coming here and insulting him is inexcusable as well.

  3. I have been having rather heated discussions on digg.com with Zionists over this issue, and what strikes me is that no matter who does the investigations, they’re all “biased” and “against Israel from the start.” Human Rights Watch is mentioned in particular, but I always ask, well, who would conduct an impartial investigation, in your opinion? And they always answer, “the IDF.” I find that so outrageously laughable that I become speechless.

    And of course, Mr. Silverstein is vilified and trounced because he is not a Zionist, and so of course he has no valid points to make, and everything he says is a lie.

    I feel sometimes that I’m beating my head against a wall trying to engage anyone in a discussion that deals in reality. What shocks me beyond description is that most of the news media also plays the game of “poor Israel” even when faced with Judge Goldstone’s report. They hailed the appointment of Goldstone to this investigation, citing his Jewishness, his objectivity and his support for Israel, as well as his excellent record of supporting human rights. Now that his report has been issued, he’s a liar, biased, a conniver against the Zionist cause, and he should be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail.

    Now the political fallout is costing the Palestinians dearly. Israel’s blackmail and brutish actions are touted as “self defense.”

    I sincerely hope this whole thing ends up at the ICC, for whatever it’s worth. Oh, yes, almost forgot – to Israeli minds, the UN is also biased and against them. Poor Zionists.

    1. Mr. Silverstein is vilified and trounced because he is not a Zionist

      With all due respect, I think I’m villified because I am a critical Zionist. This esp. is what riles up the Zionist pro-Israel right.

      1. Richard, I have seen you many times described by them as an “Anti-zionist” and worse. But that’s only semantics; you scare them because they find the truth unsettling.

        How many people denounced Goldstone’s report literally within a few hours of its release, before any human being could possibly have read all 575 pages of it? And how many have read it since then?

        I have indeed read the report. I also read reports by the ICRC, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, B’Tselem, Physicians Without Borders, Breaking the Silence, and others. And if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck….

        I agree with you. Judge Goldstone’s report should not be allowed to die.

        1. God yes, of course they describe me that way. And there are hundreds of comments by a small group of haters which do call me far worse (& which never see the light of day). It annoys the hell out of them that I have the Jewish background I do & hold the views I do.

        2. …an “Anti-zionist” and worse“.

          Horrors! An anti-Zionist – and WORSE?!

          Would that Richard WERE an anti-Zionist, for then he would be virtually perfect.

  4. Israel is “planet of the apes”…I saw a video of a checkpoint were women were handled like cattle by zionists on horseback…revolting nation!! Palestinians better realize that the Americans are their real enemies!!!

  5. Mary said:
    ——————————————————
    And of course, Mr. Silverstein is vilified and trounced because he is not a Zionist, and so of course he has no valid points to make, and everything he says is a lie.
    ——————————————————–

    That’s not what I understand, Richard. I think you had better straighten Mary out. And Mary, what are you going to do if Richard indeed confirms that he is a Zionist?

    1. Mary, what are you going to do if Richard indeed confirms that he is a Zionist?

      Oh, get over yrself, B.K. What, do you think Mary’s world will come down around her? I think she’ll survive whether I’m a critical Zionist or not. Oh & btw, I bet B.K. doesn’t consider me a Zionist either so on this perhaps Mary & B.K. agree.

      1. I don’t mind if Richard is a Zionist. What I mind is the duplicity and criminal behavior of Israel against a weaker group of people, and the criminal support given to Israel to continue this behavior. I am appalled and disgusted that this little country has so much control over US politics and has an influence that appears to be much stronger than the imperatives of right and wrong. This undignified, outrageous campaign by Israel to bury this report at all costs just shows me that there must be an ocean of crimes they are still afraid will be discovered. If Israel had nothing to hide, they would have cooperated. But even more importantly, if they had one ounce of morality, they would not have launched the attack on Gaza in the first place, nor would they be slowly killing the Gazans with blockades. And they would recognize the part they played in creating the reality everyone lives in, both Israelis and Palestinians.

  6. Barack Obama must be supremely confident that he can make peace between the parties and thus render the Goldstone Report moot.”

    That is only one possible interpretation of his reaction to the Report, and by far not the most likely one.

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