75 thoughts on “Feel the Hate in Tel Aviv: New Blumenthal Video – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. How can you be a 'Jewish Druze'? That's like calling a person a “Muslim Jew” …

    I don't deny we have our fair share of racists here, and that those comments smack of ignorance and hatred but is anyone surprised again that Max goes to a “lilah lavan”, where people are drunk and just being idiots? I e-mailed Max personally last time and asked him why he doesn't come interview people at my company, all English speaking – some of us Israelis, some not – and get a 'proper' soundbite of Israel. He obviously refused … Wonder why?

    1. What about the students at Tel Aviv University? Saying that fellow Israeli Arab students have all been “in prison?” What kind of narischkeit is that? I don’t doubt that there are more reasonable Israelis including those who work at your company. But you and I both know that the Israeli Jewish street is full of such ignorance and racism. I’m not saying the average American knows much more about Israel than the average Israeli knows about America. But what many of these Israelis “know” about America is either dead wrong or dead racist.

      1. “But you and I both know that the Israeli Jewish street is full of such ignorance and racism”

        It’s there … I don’t know how %s but it’s sadly there. I don’t have any way to condone this.

        “But what many of these Israelis “know” about America is either dead wrong or dead racist.”

        I don’t get this … Bar talks about Obama, the video rarely focused on what Israelis thought of America. Most Israelis I talk to in Hebrew (ie those who don’t have a ‘foreign’ influence due to parent or country of immigration) think of America as the land of $$$ – I think that’s fairly synonmous to what most people around the world think of it. If this is about Obama, I think fear motivates the worry about him. Whether or not they’re right, I don’t know. I have issues with Obama but I don’t think he’s done anything ‘wrong’ to Israel with regards to policy etc… He’s the president of the United States – he does what’s good for them, and that’s what every US President should do.

  2. At 05:10 the interviewer asks an Israeli: “Do you think that the Arabs in Israel should leave?” The Israeli responds: “Yes. They need country. They need country. Go to Gaza.” As if he wasn't standing in their country – talk about self-righteous arrogance.

    In response to Richard's piece on Comment is Free yesterday, Geoffrey Alderman (an academic) and a few other posters, whined on and on about how Jews living in the West Bank would have the same less rights as Israeli Arabs under Palestinian rule. What threw me is how these poor excuses for human beings felt no shame about how Israeli Arabs are treated. Rather than discussing how Israel could improve the rights of Israeli Arabs (and thereby lead by example in the Middle East and Palestinian territories) these fools are worried that what went around may soon be coming around.

    I say: Bring on the one state.

  3. If the father is a Druze and mother Jewish isn't the result a a Jewish Druze, especially if the parents are secular? Is it really so difficult to understand that when people like you constantly claim that atheistic or secular Jews are also Jews. One can be equally easily an atheist Druze as one can be an atheistic Jew.

    Well Avramp would your collages opinions be the same after five bears as in a sober situation? The alchohol often reveals the true nature and thinking of an individual.

    Surely there a variants in the level of racism among the Israeli Jews, but do not the last election results and what the opinions the leading Israeli politicians express daily tell us that the problem is acute. Undermining the videos which give not a very flattering picture of the mental attitude and behaviour of Israeli Jews can't be nullified simply because they are not “balanced”, what ever that balanced means. It would be impossible to make any news, analysis, documentary etc if the reporter should take all possible aspects and opinions in that report. If that total balance demand would be binding there would be very few news etc from Israel in the international media. 95 percent of present reports are less balanced when they are watched with Palestinian or Arab eyes. And you have no problem with that?

  4. Druze is a religion. Just as you cannot be a Muslim & a Jew, you cannot really be a Druze and a Jew. He can obviously be an Israeli Druze or an Arab Druze.

    “Undermining the videos “

    I don't … They disappoint me greatly. But just as Phillip Weiss said when explaining the first one, they're sensationalist and cherry picked. He used those two words for a reason.

    Fact is, and I think Richard would agree with this, both societies harbor a lot of anger and distrust to each other, and it borders on hatred for a lot of people. It's what happens when you are in constant 'conflict' (for some, for milennia, for others, for a few hundred years) … and the only way that can be resolved is two states and quickly.

    1. Actually, surveys of opinion among Jewish & Arab Israeli communities reveal that the Arabs harbor much less animosity towards Jews than vice versa and than you might think given how shabby their treatment has been. Of course, there are Arab Israelis who do harbor anger & frankly I can’t blame them. But the majority of the hatred, mistrust & ignorance I’m afraid comes fr. the Jewish community.

      Now if you want to talk about the Palestinians, I’m sure the situation is different. But many more Palestinians have suffered much worse under Occupation than Israeli Arabs have suffered under Israeli discrimination & benign neglect.

      1. Israelis Arabs (& for that matter, the Druze and Bedouins) aren’t fools. We treat them terribly at times – I’m not denying that at all, OR condoning it. However, what they can get ‘career wise’ or ‘future wise’ for the kids is far limited elsewhere in this region than it is here (or another example, when Jerusalem was being talked about in Olmert’s ‘peach push’, there was a surge in Israeli Arabs from East Jerusalem wanting Israeli passports … They don’t want to be ‘there’ despite our treatment). I’m not using that as an excuse – you’ve known me long enough to know I do wish we treated our minorities – Jews & Non-Jew …

        1. Do you realize how insincere it is to say they couldn’t get the same level of blah blah elsewhere?

          You don’t know what kind of country the Palestinians would have created had this entire soap-opera been avoided all those years ago.

          I’ve seen pictures of Palestine back then and they seemed very modern for the times and civilized. It’s such a deeply RACIST and imperialist/colonialist thing to imply otherwise.

          That’s THEIR country and those Israelis are making it seem like they are immigrants who showed up last week.

          Disgusting.

          1. Insincere? Ok, if you say so.

            I don’t know what country they could have created, you’re right. No issues there. Could have been better/equal/worse to what we’ve created.

            I’ve seen pictures too that show the opposite, so it’s irrelevant really.

            I didn’t say that Israeli Arabs, or Druze, or Arabs ‘were immigrants who showed up last week’. Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

        2. Avram – remember that Arab israelis compare themselves to ISRAELIS not to some other arabs who live somewhere else. Your line of argument is suspiciously similar to those who argued during the civil rights era that Blacks in the US have it far better than blacks in Africa – so they should stop whining!

          The arab israelis – whether christian or molim and/or secular 9that many of them are, de facto) are waging a fight for their civil liberties IN ISRAEL – not in Jordan. Notice how israeli they all look? may be they just want the same right anyone else has in israel – the right to liberty and pursuit of happiness? to live and marry anyone they want? to work at any company they are qualified for?

          1. “remember that Arab israelis compare themselves to ISRAELIS not to some other arabs who live somewhere else”

            That is not entirely true – some do, some don’t (to each his own). I have no clue what the %s are. For example, almost all Druze I’ve met consider themselves either Israelis or Israeli Arabs. I’ve met a few Bedouins in Arad and the areas, and some say we’re Palestinians, others Israelis.

            “Notice how israeli they all look? ”

            You obviously haven’t been in Israel … It’s really hard to ‘define’ what an Israeli ‘looks like’. Perhaps lingo or food preferences, but looks is very diverse –

            “may be they just want the same right anyone else has in israel”

            Aye, I concur. I think it’s rather sad they’re as ‘inactive’ as the Ultra Orthodox (Haredim) and don’t get nearly as many benefits.

          2. Avram – was that a swipe at the palestinian-Israelis not serving in the IDF (which after all is committed to the extermination of their fellow arabs in the OT)?

            Arabs are plenty active in israeli affairs as the demonstrating arabs in the video show. They participate in civic affairs, are active on local councils, go to israeli universities and are dedicated to providing good general education just as most secular israeli teachers do. they are growing increasingly political – and therefore involved in israeli affairs – as they internalize that their battle with the state is a civil rights battle, best fought in courts – of law and of public opinion.

            Surely as more and more young arabic people move into israeli cities like tel Aviv, they will become more like any other israeli. Mostly secular, scornful of the haredi (both the jewish and muslim versions) and highly active for universal civil rights for all of israel’s citizens. In time, there’ll be many more intermarriages between israelis of arab and european background, labels notwithtanding. Hopefully israel will eventually have a separation between state and religion as most civilized countries do – or should.

            As for service in the army – like any civilized country israel should make room for conciencious objectors – jewish, arab and russian non-Jews (yes, all half a million of them). Not every one is gang-ho about killing a bunch of their fellow humans, you know. There should be alternative forms of service open to everyone, IMHO, just as in other western countries. . How about that?

  5. “Bring on the one state”

    Yes, mingle two societies that harbor anger and hatred towards each other! That is a sure fire way to get peace! Gooooooo one state!

    1. More like ONE society that hates the other FAR MORE – and has institutionally ENSLAVED and LORDED OVER the other.

      Studies show consistently that the Palestinians are less hateful than the Israeli Jews.

      Truth hurts, racist.

      1. What studies exactly LD? Are you mixing Israeli-Arabs with Palestinians again?

        I’ve read some quite vicious things about Palestinian society, and some things that highlight a more moderate world. Unlike you however, I would rather BOTH societies survive long term and are giving a break from each other to mend themselves.

        How exactly did I say anything racist? If I didn’t, then why bother say anything? You have quite an anger issue …

        1. Avram – Are you avramp?

          Dividing Israelis into two societies, those like and not like oneself, allows one to claim a mutual hatred.

          Speaking both for oneself and those distinguished as not like oneself deprives the other of a voice. A common reaction is anger on behalf of those so deprived.

          Is that what you want?

          1. I am AvramP too – Sorry for confusion (I post while at work sometimes, so I guess I set up a different name … Not sure why)

            What mutual hatred are you talking about?

            Do I hate Israeli Arabs? Nope
            Do I hate Palestinians? Nope
            Do I hate the Ultra Orthodox Jews? Nope

            Sorry if that makes the rest of your post rather irrelevant.

          1. Apology accepted sir, I know it’s the internet but it’s best conversations remain respectful unless of course someone says “_____ is a _____” (ie racist comments), and then vent on him/her as much as you want.

            Yah I’ve read some of these … There is a probelm with a few issues within our country. I don’t know how to ‘blame’ it but I’m more concerned with solutions … That’s why I think we need two states for two people (however the politicians want to draw it up) and a lengthy cool off period where both people can ‘heal’ themselves. It’s essential …

          2. I frequent this blog and Philip Weiss’s blog, Mondoweiss. On Mondoweiss we have a crew of Zionist commentators who frequently make the most ridiculous arguments. (I do not include Richard Witty in this group, but I do feel he can be intellectually dishonest at times. At the same time, I myself, have been very aggressive towards his posts and it doesn’t advance discussion further.)

            My perspective on the Zionist opinion is skewed because I almost only see it from those trolls (which I think is an accurate term for them – on Mondoweiss – and I think you’d agree if you read some of the stuff they say).

            And this is hypocritical of me because I’m sure people feel the same – erroneously – towards the Palestinian perspective.

            So, yea, I’m sorry. You didn’t say anything racist – I was definitely overreacting. I’m just annoyed with this idea that Palestinians are savages and ‘have been civilized by Zionism’ (a notion which you did not express).

          3. Thanks, LD, for that bit of honest self-critique. I appreciate it as I want these threads to be an open forum for people of good will on both sides of this argument.

    2. When Avram says …It’s really hard to ‘define’ what an Israeli ‘looks like’… he reinforces Dana’s point. The various people are Israeli, regardless of how the categorically-minded like to box them into different groups. Hard to stoke the fear that leads to “hatred and anger” without constant harping on the “differences” considered important enough to justify separate and unequal citizenship.

  6. Perhaps he has one Druze parent and one Jewish, or perhaps both his parents were Druze but he converted to Judaism. As for Muslim & a Jew, I know of many Jews who have taken to other relgions, Islam included.

  7. So if he converted to Judaism, he wouldn't be a 'Jewish Druze'. He'd be an Israeli Druze. You cannot practice both Judaism and Druze religiously – it doesn't work for either faith.

    If you've taken on 'another religion', you're not what you were before – correct? For example, if you (or person X) was born Christian and converted to Islam – he wouldn't be a Christian Muslim. He'd be a Muslim …

  8. “So if he converted to Judaism, he wouldn't be a 'Jewish Druze'. He'd be an Israeli Druze.”
    I'm sorry, wouldn't he be an Israeli Druze anyway? One becomes Israeli by converting to Judaism in your view?

  9. Sorry, I screwed up with the comment.

    It should have read:

    “So if he converted to Judaism, he wouldn't be a 'Jewish Druze'. He'd be an Israeli Jew.”

    “One becomes Israeli by converting to Judaism in your view?”

    Obviously not … We have how many non-Jewish Israelis here? the Druze are Israeli, so are the Christians, so are the Muslims in Israel proper etc … But again, Druze = a religion. You cannot practice Druze and Judaism etc … That's what I'm saying.

    1. avramp – maybe you can be both druze and jew – why not? just as most israelis are totally secular and have really nothing at all to distinguish them as jews (OK, so they go on holiday during hannukah and dress up in Purim). You are israeli by definition when born in Israel. The distinctions bvetween druz, arab, russian, etc are totally artificial and mean nothing to many people.

      And yes you can be partly muslim (eg follow some customs) and partly jewish (ditto). The world is a fluid place and you should take a good look at how successful intermarriages are in the US.

      Besides, I happen to believe that you can tell a Jew by the values they subscribe to. By my definition, many palestinians are more jewish than the jews. the rest is just racist nonsense.

      1. “And yes you can be partly muslim (eg follow some customs) and partly jewish (ditto).”

        What religion are you Dana? Do you know what each faith dictates as per let’s say dietary laws or perhaps prophets? Note, there’s major ‘issues’ there and I’ve only gone into two little bits of the faiths. Unless you’re referring to a Muslim and Jew as ‘nationalities’, then I don’t agree you can be both “Muslim” & “Jew” religiously. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

        “how successful intermarriages are in the US.”

        Some work, some don’t. I’ve seen some that are marvelous testaments to the people, and I’ve seen some that I don’t think I’d wish that on anyone.

        “By my definition, many palestinians are more jewish than the jews. the rest is just racist nonsense”

        Yes, that was nonsense. But I don’t think it was racist.

        1. Since you ask, I’ll answer. My true religion is The matrix – the parent-of-all-religions (check it out. If you can’t find it under religion, try under conspiracy theories…..). I admit to being of jewish extraction, but am of the highly secular brand.

          I admit to being originally from Israel. But have come a long way, as you can see. In fact, I now realize – that the last thing we got in israel was real jewish education. What we got is the zealot military-nationalist-tribal brand of “jewish” education that’s probably more appropriately called Sparta -with-a sprinkling-of Athens. None of us seculars believed in god and we mostly chafed under the yoke of having to study the tanach day in, day out, taught by really-lousy-teachers. Every secular israeli i know hates the haredim with far greater passion that they reserve fro the Arabs. Want more answers or is this enough for now?

          However, I should add that since coming to the US I had more opportunities to learn about what Judaism is and isn’t. I can honestly say now that real Judaism is now confined to the diaspora (with a few israeli adherents, some of whom are, believe it or not, Arabs. But that’s my interpretation. Which is of course, the right one and the only one!?).

          IM(NH)O, Judaism is a state of mind and the history of Judaism is a morality play – a microcosm of our entire universe – played out over and over with variations. It is obviously of some consequence to finally get it right. if you don’t believe me ask god (ie, The matrix, which alas, has a hard time communicating with us ants). Alternatively, you could always ask me?

          1. “that the last thing we got in israel was real jewish education”

            Well … I tend to agree but I’m not nearly as extreme in my opinion of what the education was like.

            “None of us seculars believed in god”

            Interestingly enough, I have quite a few friends (not many Ashkenazim, mostly Mizrachim & Sefradim) who aren’t religious but very much believers in Gd.

            “Every secular israeli i know hates the haredim with far greater passion that they reserve fro the Arabs.”

            There are major issues with the Haredim. I agree. We struggle with them big time – I try not to hate them, though they anger me incredibly (example, yesterday in Jerusalem). There has to be a compromise here too in order to ensure both sides (secular & dati leumi Jews ‘vs’ haredim).

            “I can honestly say now that real Judaism is now confined to the diaspora”

            That is your opinion. I lived in an extremely Jewish area in New York for 9+ years. I had many issues, and I wasn’t even religious, with the way my friends (almost all Jews) handled themselves as Jews and viewed the religion. If ‘real Judaism is now confined to the diaspora’, I say we’re in big big trouble. But then again, that’s my opinion.

            Your last paragraph was an interesting, and thanks for sharing (Being honest here, I always find these kind of opinions worthwhile to read – ie, how people view their Jewishness)

  10. I think what simohurtta and kylebisme have in mind is the genealogical, not the religious dimension of Jewishness. You can't change your ancestry by converting to another religion, so in the ethnic sense you'd remain Jewish, even if you converted, wouldn't you? This ethnic dimension is absent from other religions, so it wouldn't work the other way around, or between Christianity and Islam, e.g.
    If religion was all there was to Jewishness, there couldn't be any secular/atheist Jews, those would be contradictions in terms.

  11. Separating them and treating one group better than the other is what caused the anger and hatred in the first place. Why this is such a hard concept for some to grasp always amazes me.

    Read “Us and Them” by David Berreby. What Israel has done over decades is the classic way to create hatred, division and the us vs. them mentality. Its not surprising at all that racism is rampant in Israel. The preferential system there can lead nowhere else.

  12. The most likely explanation for the “Jewish Druz Israeli” caption is that it is a mistake. Most likely due to ignorance. It is possible that the guy has a Druz father and Jewish mother, but not likely because the guy has a Hebrew/Israeli accent. Also, if he were Druz I doubt that he would say “they don't want us”. It is extremely unlikely that he is the son of a Druz mother and Jewish father (such matches are very rare). He could be a Druz convert to Judaism but that doesn't explain his accent. He couldn't be a Jewish convert to the Druz because the Druz don't accept converts. In fact even most Druz don't know what their religion is about. It's a secret religion and only the leaders are allowed to practice the religion. Also, only the child of a Druz mother and father are considered Druz, so even if one of the above scenarios was correct (half Jewish half Druz) he would still not be considered a Druz and the caption would be incorrect.

  13. I've been living in Israel for several years now and, though I at first came with the accepted opinion that all Israelis are dovish bleeding heart liberals, it has become clear to me that this is not the case. The American Jewish mainstream should refocus from whitewashing over racism and hatred amongst Israelis and try to address it. That would necessitate real cultural bridges (not just checks) and some difficult discussions for Jews on both sides of the pond.

    However, I must say that this video is pretty worthless as a document on racism. It's much more interested in smearing than it is in truth. First of all, anyone who has lived here and watched “run of the mill” Israelis knows that if they don't really speak English and someone starts talking to them in English they say things in English that they heard on GalGalatz or saw in the latest blockbuster. Thus the immense amount of cursing, the incoherent responses and the “action hero morality” that characterizes the first responses. Secondly, though drunkenness can bring out 'veritas,' it can also bring out adolescent people acting stupid and saying provocative things that they wouldn't necessarily stand behind if they were asked to really present their positions on things.

    The ultimate worthlessness of this video document is of course that it is edited. I'm sure any filmmaker could have used the same shooting tactics to make a film that “dramatically shows” that Palestinians love Israelis, Israelis love Palestinians, Israelis like to drink Palestinian blood, Jews poisoned the wells of Europe or that 4 out of 5 housewives can't tell the difference between Whizzo butter and a dead crab. I understand that by dishonestly blowing things out of proportion the maker of this video can generate a dialogue but that does not change the fact that it's dishonest.

    With the tremendous amount of ink being spilled on The Conflict, there is a perennially painful lack of honesty. Maybe this video will be one more piece of injustice in the interest of some deeper justice. The modern history of the region doesn't leave me hopeful.

    1. anyone who has lived here and watched “run of the mill” Israelis knows that if they don’t really speak English and someone starts talking to them in English they say things in English that they heard on GalGalatz or saw in the latest blockbuster.

      I’m sorry but this excuse doesn’t cut it. The level of English wasn’t great, but even those who clearly could speak English well like the business students expressed anti-democratic, racist attitudes (though in a more sophisticated package admittedly).

      All videos are edited. This one was not edited to make any interviewee look more racist than they actually were. Would you like to be in the edting room next time Max edits one of his videos so you can assure yrself it was done transparently??

  14. THere is a comment explaining this at the original website. The interviewee claimed he was Jewish as did his friends who were with him. THough clearly he claims Arab ancestry during his interview. So Max wasn't sure how to deal with that & noted that he was a Druze-Jew.

  15. I read Blumenthal's explanation (after posting the comment). The guy clearly said he was Jewish. In the interview he said he knows “Arab”, not that he has Arab ancestry. “He describes himself over and over (and quite defensively) as a Jew while several of his friends identify him as a Jew with mixed Druze heritage.” So in spite of the fact that the guy said “over and over” that he was Jewish, Max decided he was “Druse-Jewish”. That's arrogance not ignorance.

  16. “It's a secret religion and only the leaders are allowed to practice the religion”

    I'm not sure that's 100% true. Don't they have a ceremony at a certain age (I think it's 18) where they either decide to live by the 'Druze' faith (ie learn the secrets) or decide not to.

  17. What I know about Druze I know from talking to guys I served with in the army, so that doesn't make me an expert. According to wikipedia 80% are “called al-Juhhāl (جهال) (“the Ignorant”) are not granted access to the Druze holy literature or allowed to attend religious meetings.” …”The initiated religious group, which includes both men and women (about 20% of the population), is called al-ˤUqqāl (عقال), (“the Knowledgeable Initiates”)”…”The most influential 5% of so become Ajawīd, recognized religious leaders”. Perhaps 18 is the age where the ignorant are separated from the initiated but I haven't seen any evidence that they can make the decision themselves.

  18. “I've been living in Israel for several years now and, though I at first came with the accepted opinion that all Israelis are dovish bleeding heart liberals, it has become clear to me that this is not the case. The American Jewish mainstream should refocus from whitewashing over racism and hatred amongst Israelis and try to address it.”

    That is just what Blumenthal's video is doing. How did you “come with the accepted opinion that all Israelis are dovish bleeding heart liberals” if not because the existence of Israeli opinions like these were suppressed or denied in the US? You now realize the error of your original belief but not everyone will be able to come to Israel to see for themselves. One way to force an end to the whitewashing of Israeli racism is to show that it exists openly. That's what this video does. No one can watch this video and come to the conclusion that ALL Israelis are dovish bleeding heart liberals. That is a major step in the right direction.

  19. You're asking too much of a short video. It shows that some Israelis are openly racist.

    As for the excuses people make (the Americans in the first video were drunk or the English of these Israelis is poor or whatever), I don't think that matters. One thing I learned growing up in the American South a few decades ago is that there are a lot of people who are racist who won't own up to it in public. I suspect Israelis are a lot like the people I grew up around–some were crudely and openly bigoted, and some were more subtle about it, but you could tell they were bigots by the way they blamed everything wrong with race relations on the Other. But they might not reveal this in a short interview with a foreign guy with a camera.

  20. Now everyone is furious at Blumenthal because he has learned to do MEMRI's tricks. But we don't need Max to know that Israeli Jews are racist to the marrow of their bones and hate Arabs with a virulence difficult to find among educated Westerners. The polls are conclusive. So is the fact that racism is a socially acceptable component of political discourse.

    With regard to that, it's interesting to note that while most Ashkenazi Israelis would in fact deny being racist while sober, that's not the case with Sephardi Israelis, who are much less constrained by political correctness and are famous for their public displays of bigotry. See here for a notorious example.

    1. So, one example of sickening bigotry and you can generalize all Sephardi Israelis? Now granted, I’m sure you mean Mizrachi Jews but we’ll let that slide too as hey, let’s paint a whole population with one storke as it suits an arguement …

      Just please make sure you still rightfully get angry (like I do) when people make generalized statements about Arabs or Palestinians being racist because of some idiotic sheikh etc …

      Cheers

  21. And Judaism is not? Of course I know that a Jew is a follower of a religion like a Druze is. This constant pretending that Jews are a normal nation/tribe without special religious ties and on the same time all the time emphasising the Arab sides religious “tribes” is somewhat annoying. I as Finn can convert to lets say Buddhism, I still remain a Finn. Can a Jew do that and still be a Jew if we take literally the definition of Jews? If the answer is yes I wonder why is it impossible for a non-religious, atheistic or converted Druze to identify himself as a Druze, if he likes to do that. Of course a converted Jew isn't any more a Jew like a Druze isn't any more a Druze. But if there can be Buddhist Jews, why not Jewish Druzes.

    Israel should honestly “announce” that the Jewish state means a state for people whose religion is Judaism.

  22. You're either talking about nationalities or about religion. Being a 'Finn' is not a religion, it's a nationality. You can be Finn, South Africa, Japanese and Ethiopian, or any other nationality you choose to adopt (through whatever method).

    You cannot be a 'Buddhist Jew' unless one solely defines himself culturally/nationally as a Jew as religiously, it's impossible (monotheism, idolatry etc). Same reason there cannot be a Muslim Jew (We don't hold Muhammad was a prophet) or a Christian Jew (we don't hold Jesus was a prophet). Druze is a religion, as well as a nationality. As per Amir's descriptions earlier, being a Druze religiously essentially eliminates you from beng a Jew religiously. Nationality, I guess but I also struggle with the 'idea'.

    “Israel should honestly “announce” that the Jewish state means a state for people whose religion is Judaism.”

    The old Jewish State vs State for Jews question?

  23. Doesn't the GOI constantly demand the Arabs and Palestinians to acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state. Both the terms Jewish state and homeland for Jewish people mean purely a state for followers of Judaism. So let us not pretend that Jews are an ethnic tribe/nation. The old Jewish sate existed as an independent entity only for some very short periods while during the past 3000 years. Surely the 80 years of the disputed United Kingdom can not be the pillar on which the “recovery” demand is founded.

    Of course I understand what ethnic origin, nationality and religion do mean. I could become an Israeli simply and only by converting to Judaism. You avramp could become a Finn simply by moving to Finland, keeping your religious views and living here for some years. Surely you would not be considered as an ethnic “original” Finn, but your children would already be seen as such. The Druzes and other Palestinians are more ethnic original Israelis, if we see Israel as an state with borders, as most Israeli Jews are. Your religion did give most of Jews in Israel their “entry card”, nothing else.

    1. I’m not 100% sure what GOI is but I personally think it’s ridiculous Israel has ‘acknowledgment of Israel as Jewish state’ as a ‘perquisite’ to peace talks. Would it be nice? Yah. Is it important? No. Whether or not country A B or C recognizes Israel as a “Jewish State” will have no bearing on what we in the country feel … Just like the Palestinians shouldn’t care one day when person X Y Z doesn’t recognize Palestine.

      “So let us not pretend that Jews are an ethnic tribe/nation”

      I don’t. I believe Jews are a ‘nation’ & ‘religion’. I just don’t feel you can have ‘two religions’ with ‘equal importance’ in one person. Israeli Druze? Sure. Israeli Christian? Sure. But Jewish Israel? Not in my eyes. Shinto Muslim? Nope, not that either.

      “Surely the 80 years of the disputed United Kingdom can not be the pillar on which the “recovery” demand is founded. ”

      I don’t think I’ve even remotely entered this topic throughout our conversation. If you want to discuss that (or why I believe Israel has a ‘right’ to exist), we can do it in a relevant thread with pleasure.

      “The Druzes and other Palestinians are more ethnic original Israelis”

      The Druze and Arab born in Israel, or residing here for x years, are Israelis. I accidentally wrote above they weren’t, but I corrected it. I have no issue calling them Israelis … That wasn’t my ‘gripe’

      “Your religion did give most of Jews in Israel their “entry card”, nothing else.”

      That’s a fact.

      Btw, I love Sami Hyypia and he’s a Finn

      1. Oy Dana … Where to begin …

        “was that a swipe at the palestinian-Israelis not serving in the IDF (which after all is committed to the extermination of their fellow arabs in the OT)?”

        I think it’s in the interest of all ‘non-serving’ citizens of the state (be it the DOMINANT majority of ultra orthodox Jews, or the rich kids in Tel Aviv, or Bedouins, or Israeli Arabs, or the 12% or so of Druze males who don’t serve) to change that. It doesn’t have to be army – it can be ‘national service’, like the modern orthodox girls do, which entails volunteering at a whole variety of places (be it hospitals, nurseries, govt offices etc)

        Your last statement is pathetic. I won’t even dignify it with more of a response.

        “In time, there’ll be many more intermarriages between israelis of arab and european background, labels notwithtanding.”

        I hope not, but I can tell why you’d wish that … and it has nothing to do with the reason you give later in the paragraph.

        “like any civilized country israel should make room for conciencious objectors”

        Oh they do …

        “russian non-Jews (yes, all half a million of them)”

        Are you trying to impress me or something? No one is really sure of the # of non-Jewish Russians. Whether your # is accurate or not, I don’t know. I’ve come across many Russians here, and most of them are not balking at army service.

        “Not every one is gang-ho about killing a bunch of their fellow humans, you know.”

        Yes, except for all those vicious Israelis! What a stupid statement on your part … I hope any idiot (I would use harsher terms but I think that’s against Richard’s rules) who tries to join the army just to kill is quickly outed during the early army interviews.

        “There should be alternative forms of service open to everyone, IMHO, just as in other western countries. . How about that?”

        Duh … I can’t believe after all that you agree with me … How refreshing, eh? 🙂

  24. Richard – HasbaraBuster raises an interesting point. Can you explain to me the difference between Blumenthal’s video and the methods employed by MEMRI (who are banned on this site).
    Cheers,
    Alex

    1. Max Blumenthal interviewed Israeli Jewish and Arab students at Tel Aviv University about the anti-Nakba law. I think there was more nuance in Max’s video than in anything MEMRI produces. Besides, most people don’t know how much hate there is within many Israelis. So Max is doing a service. It may not be a service you like since it shows Israel in a bad light. But if it wasn’t there he couldn’t show it.

  25. Kushi isn’t or has ever meant “nigger”. “nigger” is “kushon”.
    Kushi means from the land of Kush or Ethiopia and is used as a generic term for africans in Israel. It’s not a racist term whatsoever.

    1. Take it up with Max Blumenthal who translates the phrase this way in his video. I’m certain the translation comes from Israelis. I’m fluent in Hebrew as well and I don’t think the issue is as definitive as you’re making it out to be. Kushi is roughly equivalent to the Yiddish schvartze which is almost always a dismissive or derogatory term for a black person. Perhaps “nigger” is more derogatory than kushi but they’re in the same league.

  26. What stands out about the comments of the apologists for Israeli behavior and attitudes in this thread, is that they are clearly uninterested in engaging the actual content of Blumenthal’s video, which shows unambiguous prejudice and hatred on the part of most of the Israeli Jews interviewed toward Palestinians. Don’t get me wrong, the discussion over whether Blumenthal’s labeling that individual a ‘Jewish Druze’ is cogent or fair is absolutely fascinating, deep stuff indeed?!, but it’s basically a diversion from the unsettling content of the video.

    If there was an American video showing this level of hatred on the part of a dominant population in American society toward a particular group of people, I would be outraged and appalled as an American, and full-throatedly condemn the prejudice and hatred on display. I guess I have different standards of how a society behaves than you do. I’m taking away from this dicussion that the apologists are indifferent to the prejudices evidenced in “Feeling the Hate in Tel Aviv”. Again, if people sharing my identity and/or nationality behaved and spoke this way, I would speak out against it, NOT rationalize it, throw out justifications for it, change the conversation, or essentially say, ‘hey, those people over there are just as bad as us’. Do you even realize how pathetic that last argument makes you guys look to most people in the Western world? I thought Israel wanted to see itself, and project itself to the world, as a democratic Western country. If you want to compare yourselves to countries like Saudi Arabia or Libya so you don’t come out looking so bad, go ahead I guess if that’s the yardstick you want… let’s just say you’ve set the bar pretty low, socio-politically.

    (BTW, I’m just as against America’s ‘special relationship’ with Saudi Arabia as I am opposed to our hyper-‘special relationship’ with Israel, significantly because the petro-politics involved in our Saudi relationship is part of what’s suffocating our beautiful, sacred, green planet… Also, the cultural criticisms of Iran and Iranian society by shock-troops of the Israel lobby and our MSM are 10 times more relevant to Saudi Arabia than they are to Iran (which in no way excuses recent Iranian government atrocities against it own people), but the corrupt dumb-as-a-doornail American media seems to give the Arabian peninsula, not to mention our best friend Israel, a pass, I wonder why…)

    1. Well … I’m think the video is disgusting, and I said it after the first video of ‘Israelis’ (American Jews) in Jerusalem. That I think it’s disgusting/embarassing etc, doesn’t mean I cannot debate things that are obviously curious.

      “If there was an American video showing this level of hatred on the part of a dominant population in American society toward a particular group of people, I would be outraged and appalled as an American”

      Really? Go watch Borat and see the level of hatred he encounters … Were you outrage and appalled as an American? Or did you laugh?

      “NOT rationalize it”

      Who rationalized it?

      1. I have seen ‘Borat’, and I find the prejudiced views expressed in the film disgusting and deplorable, thanks for bringing it up. There’s no justification for hatred and racism wherever it appears.

        It’s a rather forced equivalence, however, in that in the film the character Borat presented himself off the bat as a bigot and racist to the objects of his satire and then asked clearly leading questions (in the sense that the racism was already articulated in the questions themselves). In Psychology, when people think a certain kind of answer is being looked for or expected by a questioner/interviewer, it has the tendency to corral the respondent in a certain direction. This does NOT AT ALL mean that the interviewees had to answer in the way they did. One would have hoped (in a better world) that they would have responded to Borat by saying, ‘hey you crazy bigot, don’t talk about Jews and blacks that way’, or something to that effect.

        In this particular respect, you can’t compare Max Blumenthal to Borat. In the first video, Blumenthal merely asked people what they thought of President Barack Obama. In the second video, he asked Israeli Jews what they thought about Palestinian Arabs. That was it. He did not frame it in any particular direction, and the shit just hit the fan (particularly in the first video). The harshest critics of Max Blumenthal have tried to make him out to be an Israel-hating anti-Semitic propagandist using ‘Borat’-like methods, but the comparison to Borat in that sense just doesn’t fly.

        Yes, there remains a lot of racism and bigotry in American society. It’s deplorable and should be fought against, spoken out against vigorously. I make a point of doing so. It’s fairly clear, though, that racism is far more prevalent per capita, and socially acceptable, in Israel today than it is in America today. If you can’t recognize this, I’d suggest you’re rather deluded. I recommend you work on your own backyard, Avram, and as long as my country is under-writing and facilitating your policies, arming you, etc., Americans have every right to comment on and criticize Israeli policy and Israeli society (it’s precisely because of the ‘special relationship’ and hence our complicity in Israel’s crimes against the Palestinians, that I believe Americans are morally OBLIGATED to speak out on the issue). If you don’t like it, I suggest you stop being so dependent on us.

        1. “I recommend you work on your own backyard, Avram”

          Uh, I do. I’m glad you do to yours too.

          “If you don’t like it, I suggest you stop being so dependent on us.”

          Thanks, who do I make this request to?

          I do appreciate the ‘holier than though’ tone, cheers boet.

      2. I think this video and the first one should not be used as some kind of empirical study of attitudes of ‘the other’ in Israel-Palestine.

        We have legitimate studies for that already.

        I think, after reflecting on this a bit, that it is indeed a form of propaganda (although, I would not put it in the same category of propaganda as let’s say, ‘Obsession: Radical Islam’s blah blah blah on the West’).
        I mean, all of Max’s videos are done w/ the intent to entertain as well as shine some light.

        1. Whoops accidentally, hit ‘enter’ on that last comment.

          Anyways, I was going to add that ‘The Daily Show’ is also a form of propaganda but there is a lot of truth reported too.

          So it’s not all bad.

          In Bruno, Sascha Baron Cohen (did I get his name right?), mocked a Palestinian who was once a member of the PLO (or some ‘brigade’). Cohen stated on Letterman he was interviewing a terrorist.

          I don’t deny that the Palestinians employ terrorism – but some resistance groups are delegitimized as ‘terrorists’ (one-sided) while others are called ‘underground’ groups (NY Times eulogizing some former Irgun member I think).

          The term is very political and it’s not applied with the principle of universality. It’s entirely ideological.

          I was upset that he had painted the Palestinian as a one-dimensional figure and then mocked him. People laughed and you know they have no idea about the conflict.

          So in that sense I can understand the annoyance/anger at Max’s videos.

          But the second-part to this video seemed alright to me. The first part was just a bunch of the usual clowns being clowns.

          I wouldn’t put the Bruno movie clip on the same par as either of Max’s videos though. Max found some truly racist idiots and struck gold. Bruno found a guy who was not overtly anything. He could have had something to say.

          Think of it this way, the Bruno clip would be like Max, mocking the Tel Aviv Israelis interviewed. And overall, Max didn’t ask mocking questions – he was sincere, but when he edited the video it reflected the stupidity of the interviewees.

          The first part was harsh, as was the first ‘Feeling the Hate’ video. I think we need to be clear and say it was more the people interviewed than the editing but that the editing was important.

          With Bruno, it was all contrived and staged – obviously.

          1. “Sascha Baron Cohen (did I get his name right?)”

            I think it’s Sacha, though there’s different ways of writing that name!

            I like ‘thoughtful and calm’ LD far more than ‘angry and venting’ LD! 🙂

  27. Oh, by the way, Israelis, I would suggest not calling Barack Obama a “Nazi”, as one estimable young person did in this video. This kind of thing doesn’t go over too well with most Americans. A little newsflash, Barack Obama is quite a popular President, unlike your fav. George W. Bush. So (little hint), this isn’t very effective PR on your part. Maybe if you could parachute Frank Luntz into some of these Israeli festivals, soirees, he could help school the more open, un-selfconscious bigots around in covering up their true feelings and toeing the new Luntz-formulated hasbarist rhetorical line, talking points, etc., … tryin’ to help you out here.

    1. “I would suggest not calling Barack Obama a “Nazi””

      I would say you’re 100% right … It’s used far too much in Israel (the term), and it really disappoints me.

      “Barack Obama is quite a popular President, unlike your fav. George W. Bush”

      a) who cares if Obama is ‘popular’? One cannot disagree/dislike the US president based on his approval ratings at home?

      b) ‘your fav Bush’? I really didn’t like Bush. I’m not the ‘only’ Israeli who felt that he was causing extreme damage to this region. But hey, paint your picture …

      “tryin’ to help you out here.”

      Thanks mate, appreciated.

      1. I wasn’t using ‘you’ above, in the sense of you Avram. I was speaking generally to/of ‘Israelis’.

        I take you at your word that you’re not a fan of W. It is interesting that, outside of the US in the early years, the only country in the world where Bush II was popular was Israel. This is a sad fact, and I was making reference to that. (BTW, by noting this I’m not saying that EVERY Israeli liked Bush, you can play those games if you want, but it gets tiring.)

        And I think that one can definitely dislike an American president who happens to have high approval ratings. In fact, a robust democracy relies on dissent, criticism. If you somehow got the opposite out of what I was saying, then I think you don’t read very well. Try to read things in context, it helps.

        1. In the early years? If memory serves me well, Bush wasn’t that unpopular in his ‘early’ years … Iraq obviously forever ruined any popularity he may have had permanently (be it AIDs in Africa or whatever).

          I did a quick google search and found this (if you feel this is false, please provide a link to counter so I can re-analyze the situation):

          http://www.hist.umn.edu/~ruggles/Approval.htm

          “I think you don’t read very well. Try to read things in context, it helps.”

          Thanks Warren. It does get tiring to read these kind of comments … Any internet courses I can take to improve it up to your standard?

          1. Again, Avram, I think you have some reading impairment issues. If you read what I wrote closely, I’m actually saying that George W. Bush was popular in the US in the early years, that’s the point of my conditional clause there! When I think about it, W. was even still popular here in the U.S. well into the first year of his second term in office. The disgrace it! It makes me feel ashamed to be an American that W. was popular in my country for so long. I’m (still) hoping that Obama can help to redeem/rectify our severely tarnished image in the world.

            I’m guessing that English isn’t your first language, and that might account for some of the reading comprehension issues. Also, I lace some of my commentary with a good dollop of irony, and sarcasm, and a non-native speaker probably wouldn’t pick up on it. Apologies if I come across as condescending. I could probably cut back on both of those things (sarcasm and ironizing), it’s unfortunately my natural reaction to sophistry and nonsense.

          2. When I think about it, you probably got confused by my use of the expression “outside of” in my above comment, which can have two different meanings depending on the context and emphasis. I was using it in the sense of “excepting”, but you might have taken the expression in its geographical, physical meaning. I ought to have said, “excepting”, to avoid any ambiguity. Yes, the horror of it! The war criminals Bush and Dick were popular here in America for far too long.

  28. LD –

    There’s commentators on both sides of the conflict who give the more ‘realistic’ (whatever you want to call us, be it moderate, honest, human etc) posters a bad name. I recently had one on my blog who tried to convince me my religion was false. Granted, he eventually stopped but I easily understand why you get heated up about it.

    “So, yea, I’m sorry.”

    Apology accepted dude.

    “I’m just annoyed with this idea that Palestinians are savages and ‘have been civilized by Zionism’”

    The funny thing is quite a few of us Zionists need to be civilized in many fields not even related to our overall treatment of our neighbors. So I don’t think we can ‘civilize’ if we’re not entirely civilized ourselves!

  29. “The disgrace it! It makes me feel ashamed to be an American that W. was popular in my country for so long.”

    What did Bush do so wrong until 9/11 that makes you embarrassed he was popular? Was his handling of the US (not the war in Afghanistan) after 9/11 that poor? I’m sure we agree on many of the things he did that was wrong … but it’s been done to death.

    “I’m (still) hoping that Obama can help to redeem/rectify our severely tarnished image in the world.”

    Whenever you’re #1 (as in the super power), most of the world will despise you one way or another. Granted Bush took that to a new level, but it’s not like he came into power with a ‘We love the US la la la’ world.

    “I’m guessing that English isn’t your first language”

    I’m not sure really – It’s the first language I heard but I spoke Hebrew fluently first as I grew up in Israel. I understand most of the ironies & sarcasm (or at least I think) in your posts, but that doesn’t excuse the condescending comments … But as I said, it’s the internet. Not like either of us are going to bed ‘hurt’ or ‘concerned’ about what we think/say about each other, eh?

  30. We should never lose sight of the fact that all polls support Blumenthal’s findings. The people he interviews say the same things that a majority of Israelis have already said in scientifically-conducted surveys.

    So that no matter how much you dislike his editing practices, you must agree he’s not distorting reality, which in the end of the day is what actually counts.

  31. Interesting video. I guess the issue I have is videos can be edited and misrepresent reality. Not that this is the case, but I do wonder.

    I saw recently a video on Sharia in the USA. They went to Dearborn’s Arab Festival Father’s Day weekend. The video maker left out that Christian Zionists had been working the fair, carrying signs that implied Islam was corrupt and dressing like Jewish Settlers. Christians flood this festival every year to proselytize. Their attitude often conflictual and hostile, telling me and my Palestinian Christian husband we have to convert to be saved (note the irony of their ignorance in assuming we are Muslim).

    Sometimes I wonder, when I see a video like this, what else is impacting it. Sometimes that element that is missing is the one that can be adjusted.

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