On Sunday, January 11th the official Seattle Jewish community will host a “solidarity rally” for Israel at Temple DeHirsh Sinai. The purpose of the event is to support Israeli policy and specifically its attack on Gaza. One of the main speakers at the solidarity rally will be Nevet Basker, a board member of the right-wing pro-Israel Stand With Us. The blue and white of the Israeli flag will wave. The thrilling chords of Hatikvah will resound. Pro-Israel patriotism will ring out.
Though many local Jewish organizations are co-sponsoring this event none of the Jewish peace groups here in town have been asked. Nor would they likely have signed on. This event DOES NOT represent all of Seattle’s Jewish community. It represents the leadership of the Jewish community and a self-selected segment of the rest of the community. As such, the politics represented at this event will place all blame for the conflict on the Palestinians and none on Israel. It will justify Israel’s savage, disproportionate attack on the civilians of Gaza. It will whitewash the death and devastation wrought by the IDF on Gaza if it will even mention it at all. It will present the government’s position to the exclusion of any other. It will not present any of the critical voices either in Israel itself or here in our own national or local community. In short, Sunday promises to be a whitewash.
To be clear, while I am critical of this rally I am not critical of the Jewish community and in fact consider myself a member of it. While I am critical of Israeli policy, I am not critical of the existence of the State of Israel. That is why I announce my absence from the solidarity event not with a sense of satisfaction, but rather with a sense of sadness.
It would certainly not have been easy to create a program that could have truly brought the ENTIRE community together. But I’m afraid to say that Seattle’s leaders didn’t even try. So they will get what they paid for. A program that represents a narrow cross section of the ideological/political spectrum. It’s sad that it had to be that way.
That Sunday, I will be voicing my feelings about Israel’s attack on Gaza though not at DeHirsh. I will be at Kadima’s program speaking with two other Jewish peace activists. There we will collectively discuss our responses to the Gaza invasion. Some guests may voice sympathy and support for Israel, especially for the innocent victims of rocket attacks. But the major difference from the community’s program is that we will not be bound by an agenda that rejects empathy for both sides. We will not be afraid to demand that Israel revert to honoring Jewish values which this offensive has trampled. We will not be afraid to say that killing Palestinian civilians is a travesty that deserves the opprobrium of Jews and non-Jews everywhere. We will not be afraid to demand that both sides compromise in achieving a workable ceasefire.
Kadima Reconstructionist Community invites you to join a discussion:
THE CRISIS AND WAR IN GAZA AND SOUTHERN ISRAEL
Judith Kolokoff, American Jews for a Just Peace
Barbara Lahav, Brit Tzedek v’Shalom
Richard Silverstein, Tikun OlamSUNDAY, JANUARY 11, 10:30 AM– NOON
Sandpoint Education Center, 6208 60th NE, Seattle
I for one would be interested to know how many members of the Seattle Jewish community show up to the solidarity rally for Israel at Temple DeHirsh Sinai vs. how many show up to the event organized by the Kadima Reconstructionist Community. Do you think that these competing events could act as a sort of bellwether demonstrating which way the wind blows with the American Jewish Community at large? It seems to me that those attending the Temple DeHirsh Sinai event would be predominantly supporters of AIPAC while the Kadima event would be attended by JStreet supporters. I’d like to know just how narrow this “narrow cross section of the ideological/political spectrum” is that supports Israel’s operation in Gaza.
My curiosity was piqued after reading an editorial in the Forward called Grasping Gaza that strongly supported Israel’s position in light of the new generation of deadlier Hamas rockets, smuggled in during the cease fire and now capable of hitting the outskirts of Tel Aviv. The Forward is hardly what one would consider a neocon sympathetic newspaper and has received praise from this blog. The editorial claims that Israel had no choice but to strike when it did as doing so otherwise would significantly imperil its citizens. Interesting.
Please Richard, let us know how these events went.
Well, I don’t expect both events to be comparable. The Kadima event is sponsored by a single local organization. The community rally is sponsored by the Federation & co-sponsored by all the local Israel lobby groups like Aipac, ADL, Stand With Us, etc. It has been promoted through synagogues, the local Jewish newspaper, etc. Kadima’s event has been publicized through e mail lists, phone calls & word of mouth. So I’d be perfectly happy if the Kadima event drew 100-200 people and the Federation event drew only 600 or so.
But one thing I’ll tell you…if this were October, 1973 or June, 1967 the community rally would’ve drawn 5,000-10,000 Jews (out of 40,000). The fact that I predict it will draw less than 1,000 (& perhaps much less) is due to the deep ambivalence, if not hostility of the majority of the Jewish community.
Many, if not most, Forward editorials are written by J.J. Goldberg, the former managing editor. His views are quite pro Israel, though he clearly has liberal views on many subjects including Israel. His views about Israel are quite prickly, erratic & inconsistent (in my view & I’ve criticized them here as well). So the fact that J.J. is writing in support of the Gaza invasion doesn’t surprise me at all. On this particular issue, the Forward does not represent the views of progressive Americans or Jews.
Though I’ve been too busy blogging here for the past 2 weeks to follow this closely enough, I’d be willing to bet that the Forward’s NEWS coverage has been more diverse & representative than this editorial.
Judith Kolokoff, American Jews for a Just Peace
Barbara Lahav, Brit Tzedek v’Shalom
Richard Silverstein, Tikun Olam
The message I get from this event is that Gaza is an issue about Jews, that Jews need to discuss among them.
That stinks. Representatives of two “peace organizations” who think there is no need to invite someone to speak for the people to whom they offer their sincerest sympathy.
It never ceases to amaze me how Jews Sans Frontieres never ceases to destroy what little solidarity there often is on the Jewish left with its holier than thou pontificating about ideological purity. Look, I’m not an anti-Zionist & I’m proud of that. I didn’t organize this event. I was asked to speak at it and will do so proudly. The organizer of the event decided it was meant as a discussion among Jews. I didn’t make that decision. As surprising as this may seem to you I don’t get a huge number of speaking invitations so I don’t have to choose to between speaking at a Jewish event and not speaking at a Jewish-Muslim event. I’ll be happy to do both.
In fact, I put out a wide e mail to progressives in Seattle saying I’d like to organize a community wide teach-in about Gaza that would include American Jewish, Israeli, Palestinian & Arab American speakers. The Palestinian I asked to co chair the event refused. The only person among 40 that I e mailed who said it was a great idea was an Israeli. That’s why your carping annoys the shit out of me. Now, find me a Palestinian or Arab American in Seattle who will do this event with me; & if not find someone else to bug with your irrelevant meaningless carping.
Will you be at the protest at the Federal Courthouse in Seattle today, Saturday, January 10 at noon?
It’s all well and good for American Jews to debate among themselves about Israel, but how about Americans of all stripes debating among themselves about AMERICA?
Israeli policy is not American policy (or shouldn’t be). A big part of our problem is that right-wing American Jews have dominated the debate about American policy in the Mideast (cf. Walt and Mearsheimer).
As Americans who love peace and justice, we should oppose actions by OUR OWN government that create war and instability. Sadly, our government’s one-sided support of Israel fits this bill.
See you at the protest!
I cannot, in good conscience, or good faith reject “empathy for both sides”. The humanitarian issue is extremely prevalent in my mind.
Israel, War Crimes, and Shame…
More on Israel:
“Israel’s current assault on the Gaza Strip cannot be justified by self-defense. Rather, it involves serious violations of international law, including war crimes. Senior Israeli political and military leaders may bear personal liability for their offenses, and they could be prosecuted by an international tribunal, or by nations practicing universal jurisdiction over grave international crimes. Hamas fighters have also violated the laws of warfare, but their misdeeds do not justify Israel’s acts.
The United Nations charter preserved the customary right of a state to retaliate against an “armed attack” from another state. The right has evolved to cover nonstate actors operating beyond the borders of the state claiming self-defense, and arguably would apply to Hamas. However, an armed attack involves serious violations of the peace. Minor border skirmishes are common, and if all were considered armed attacks, states could easily exploit them — as surrounding facts are often murky and unverifiable — to launch wars of aggression. That is exactly what Israel seems to be currently attempting.
Israel then broke the truce on Nov. 4, raiding the Gaza Strip and killing a Palestinian. Hamas retaliated with rocket fire; Israel then killed five more Palestinians. In the following days, Hamas continued rocket fire — yet still no Israelis died. Israel cannot claim self-defense against this escalation, because it was provoked by Israel’s own violation.
An armed attack that is not justified by self-defense is a war of aggression. Under the Nuremberg Principles affirmed by U.N. Resolution 95, aggression is a crime against peace.”
In case you are wondering, the above is from the Murdoch owned Wall Street Journal. With America thumbing its own nose at international law and going as far as to ignore Geneva Conventions, and with Israel being seen as regional replica of America’s foreign policy (if when Israel is carrying out its own agenda), two of the strongest democracies have given the terrorists something no terrorist could have accomplished alone. If Al Qaeda or the Muslim Brotherhood, or any number of loosely banded criminals were before only marginalized and before only seen as violent extremists, they are now joined together tightly under the banner of opposing war crimes and human rights abuses. I never thought I would see the day that Iran, Saudi Arabia, and other human rights abusers would have a leg to stand un when criticizing the United States and/or Israel.
Thanks to the Bush cabal and their right-wing counter-parts in Israel, both countries have made themselves even more vulnerable to attacks and left with little sympathy from the international community. The possibility (a just one if it happens) that US government officials and Israeli government officials may stand trial for war crimes is an embarrassment to us all.
I have said this before, but it should be repeated. As a Jew I am ashamed of what Israel is doing under the banner of my heritage. As an American, I am ashamed that the US has and continues to support this attack. As a person with a conscience, I am outraged. As a journalist, I am alarmed at the media censorship.
Posted by Larisa Alexandrovna on January 10, 2009 at 11:55 AM | Permalink | Comments (5) | TrackBack (0)
Oy! Was I wrong!
I went to the Seattle demonstration. A more motley crew I have rarely seen. Three separate “Socialist” organizations, one “anti-imperialist” group, plus the creepy and mysterious ANSWER Coalition. There were a number of Muslim (presumably Arab) people there as well, who seemed sincere.
If this is the “mass” opposition to American policy toward Israel, then conversation among American Jews is our only hope. There is essentially zero chance of changing U.S. policy without the emphatic support of the American Jewish community.
I will no longer criticize American Jews who engage their fellows.
“Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts as a last resource pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and happy to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.”
—Arthur Schopenhauer, Aphorisms
**********************************************
by Gideon Levy (Haaretz):
This war, perhaps more than its predecessors, is exposing the true deep veins of Israeli society. Racism and hatred are rearing their heads, as is the impulse for revenge and the thirst for blood. The “inclination of the commander” in the Israel Defense Forces is now “to kill as many as possible,” as the military correspondents on television describe it. And even if the reference is to Hamas fighters, this inclination is still chilling.
FROM “WAR IN CONTEXT”:
Editor’s Comment — This report raises a host of questions but perhaps the most pressing one is this: Have the New York Times and its reporter, David Sanger, knowingly or unwittingly made themselves instruments in promoting an agenda by the CIA, elements inside the agency, the US government and/or the Israeli government?
To publicize the covert program described in this report would seem to be a way of forcing Obama’s hand as his administration attempts to lay the groundwork for a diplomatic approach to Iran. If George Bush thwarted Israel’s aim of bombing Iran’s nuclear facilities in 2008, is Israel now attempting to undermine any diplomatic initiative in 2009?
SOURCE – http://warincontext.org/2009/01/11/news-editors-comment-does-israel-want-to-prevent-us-diplomacy-with-iran/
Must be wonderful to be a Richard Silverstein, sitting in the fat of freedom and security in Seattle – Seattle! deciding for Israel what is and is not disproportionate respsonse to deadly rocket attacks upon her civilians. The Peace and security of Seattle, however, did not arise from a dandelion; Seattle is choked with blood and capital and it is silly for Silverstein to imagine it would not respond like Israel to a like bombardment by Palestinians.
Ahhhh…Seattle peaceniks…sigh. Only a citizenry – like Seattle’s – surrounded by Fort Lewis and the Stryker brigade, Trident Nuclear sub, Boeing defense & research, the Everett Navy base, Sand Point naval base, Whidbey Island naval base – can pretend that Seattle is a hippy dippy earth shoe beatnik paradise of beads baskets and bread.
You forgot something didn’t you? That I’m a Jew. That as a Jew and a Zionist I have a right to an opinion about what Israel does since Israel holds itself out as the homeland of the JEWISH (that would be me) people.
My ancestors were not born in Seattle. They were born if you go back far enough in ancient Israel. That’s why the military complexes in Seattle have little to do with my views about Israel. I feel as strongly critical of U.S. military & foreign policy (esp. under George Bush) as I do of Israel. One has nothing to do with the other. You’re spouting pure sophistry.
Richard,
you really need to grow a thicker skin in this business. Not everything is about you. Nor did I even suggest that you shouldn’t attend. I expressed my opinion about what the message of this event as it was organized looks to me and why I think it is problematic. If I were invited I’d accept to go there and I’d say that. From your reply I take it that you agree with my concern, so why are you so defensive? Not to mention the really beautiful and florid language that you use and that you will notice I never used towards you.
No, since I didn’t organize the event I don’t impose my own values on those who did. I would’ve done this event differently. But I think the event was excellent even on the terms of those who organized it & even though I would’ve done it differently. So why criticize? I’ll leave that to the holier than thou folk like you.
Writers at your site have been taking potshots at my blog for some time. That’s one of the reasons I didn’t particularly appreciate yr criticism.
I’ve never met or spoken with Richard Silverstein, but from his comments here, he sounds like a quintessential Drama Queen. Helping him to successfully understand that “it’s really NOT all about him” sounds about as achievable and realistic as leaving a baby in a dead-letter box and expecting it to arrive.
Grow up, Mr. Silverstein. Nobody especially “cares” whether you attend this rally or that rally. As amazing as it may sound, you’re really NOT all “that” important.
Well, considering that more people have come to this site and read this post than actually attended the rally, I’d say that maybe YOU don’t care, but other people do. And I’ve got news for you–I’m writing for them. Not you. In fact, not many people here care what you have to say. Amazing as that may sound.
You’re not one to shy away from controversy, right? Rather than boycott the AIPAC-sponsored rally, I think it would have been better to go there, and stand with a sign saying:
“Jews Against the Gaza Massacres”
“Freedom, Peace for Israelis and Palestinians”
Or, if that sounds like a recipe for ending the day in the hospital, a more vanilla sign, something like:
“Supporting War is NO Support At All”
“Real Jews Support Immediate Ceasefire”
I once went to a rally in Jerusalem in 1973 advocating neogitations with the PLO. I got a rock in the jaw for my trouble. But that’s not why I wouldn’t go. I find such rallies deeply, deeply depressing. I just don’t have the stomach to go there and feel so distant and alienated from such a large group of Jews. Even though in my heart I know that more actual Jews believe as I do than believe as they do–I still grimace at the prospect of having to confront such mindless flag-waving.
BTW, a local rabbi held a similar sign at an Israel solidarity rally here a few years ago and was ARRESTED. Can you believe that? The event organizers, one of whom was Rob Jacobs who now runs Stand With Us here, countenanced having a rabbi arrested. If I’d been her I’d have convened a bet din and hauled them before it for the disrespect they showed for traditional Jewish values.
Hi Richard:
Shattering your expectations, attendance at the Pro Peace/Pro Israel Rally at Temple was excellent with not an empty seat and an SRO crowd lining the back walls throughout the length of the cavernous sanctuary.
Most encouraging for me was seeing a work colleague of mine who happens to be an avid lefty follower of Michael Lerner at the rally. This is a fellow who at the office wears a Palestine/Israeli flag lapel pin. When I saw him there I knew that you and your fellows have been utterly marginalized in the Jewish community as it relates to this particular episode of the Arab/Israeli conflict.
It warmed my heart to see only 6 or 7 counter protesters from Jewish Voices for Peace standing across the street. One of them carried the single most inane sign in the history of leftist protest, her sign read “Who would Moses Bomb?” the only sign that could possibly be dumber would be a sign that asked “Who would Mohammed Bomb”? But alas I have yet to see that sign.
Let me see. We’ve got a little hasbara clinic going here. Interesting that all the comments follow the same general line. You haven’t coordinated this with your comrades have you? Possibly Stand With Us members? Nah, couldn’t be. SWU wouldn’t adopt the rancid tactics of Israeli hasbara now would they?
Here’s how the comments go if you follow the pattern. Wonderful rally. Either I’m a leftist, I belong to a leftist synagogue or I met a leftist at the rally. Ergo, even leftists support the war. Ergo Silverstein is so far out in left field even the old ex-Jew Karl Marx wouldn’t have anything to do with him. It’s so transparent a tactic it’s ridiculous. Who put you up to this anyway?
I never believe anything people tell me based on their own interpretation of other people’s politics because the pro-Israel crowd always tends to think that their politics are centrist and ours are beyond the pale. She CLAIMS her colleague is an avid follower of Michael Lerner. How are we to know. Do me a favor. Tell your co-worker to publish a comment at this blog and confirm that he’s an “avid follower of Michael Lerner. Confirm that he supports a two state solution. Confirm that he supports the end of the Occupation. Then I might believe you. Till then, anyone can tell a good story.
I’m sorry lady but the Rasmussen poll finds that Democrats OPPOSE the Gaza invasion by a 30 point margin. That means that Jews are at least evently split if not also opposed. So it is YOU and the very small percentage (2%) of the Seattle Jewish community sitting in that synagogue who are likely in the minority.
“Well, considering that more people have come to this site and read this post than actually attended the rally, I’d say that maybe YOU don’t care, but other people do.”
You’ve gotten more than 1,200 – 1,500 comments and/or views on this board? PROVE IT. I’d love to see it. Because that’s how many people were at the “Solidarity with Israel” rally. Deal with that.
The ONLY reason there weren’t thousands more people at the rally for solidarity with Israel is that it was organized strictly by ONE synagogue – Temple De Hirsch Sinai. It wasn’t a “Jewish community of Seattle” event, it was a Temple de Hirsch Sinai event. If it had been publicized farther ahead in advance and made known to more than just the members of one shul, there would have easily been 4,000 – 5,000 demonstrators.
Oh, and BTW – if “not many people here care what I have to say”, maybe you can explain why the comments so far seem to be running decisively in favor of my side, andnot yours?
Ohhh, that’s right – we’re all “bought and paid for Hasabara shills”, huh? Nobody’s ever, EVER capable of expressing a voiewpoint contrary to your own unless we’re being allegedly “paid” to do so, huh? Poor, poor Richard, so put upon by all of us supposedly “bought and paid for” pro-Israel / anti-Hamas posters.
Grow up, Richard, and take the pity party somewhere else, okay? It’s the height of cowardice and desperation for you to arrogantly dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as being allegedly “paid posters”. Either PROVE that anybody here has ever taken of dime of funding, from “Hasbara” (whatever the Hell that is), or else kindly withdraw your lying and slanderous allegations.
Ohhh, and when you’re done with that, maybe you’d be good enough to answer a few simple questions. Such as:
* Why is it that the Hamas-stani mass-murderers and terrorists are unwilling to accept anything more than a short-term truce (“hudna”, as they refer to it)? Why are they not willing to SIT DOWN AND NEGOTIATE a comprehensive end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
* Why is it that the Hamas-stanis refuse to allow the presence of international observers on the border between Israel and Gaza? It “couldn’t possibly” be because they’re afraid that international observers might actually be competent enough (and honest and uncorruptible enough, UNLIKE the Egyptians) to have both the ability and the moral will to find and shut down the tunnels through which the Hamas-stanis are bringing in more missiles to shoot at Israel, now could it?
* Why is it that the Hamas-stanis absolutely refuse to abide by any of the prior treaties that were painstakingly negotiated between Israel and the Palestinians over the course of the last 25+ years?
* Why is it that the Hamas-stanis refuse to accept or recognize Israel’s right to exist?
* Why is it that the Hamas-stanis refuse to change their founding charter, which quite clearly and explicitly calls for the destruction of Israel?
* Why do the Hamas-stanis refuse to formalize their border with Israel?
* Why do the Hamas-stanis refuse to establish diplomatic relations with Israel, leading to the opening of consulates and embassies in each others’ countries and an exchange of ambassadors?
You see, Richard, that’s what countries actually “DO” when they REALLY intend to establish peaceful relations with other countries. They formally agree on their shared borders. They sit down, FACE-TO-FACE, and negotiate. They recognize each other’s existence. They establish diplomatic and trade relations. They set up consulates and embassies. They exchange ambassadors.
What they DON’T do, is carefully word all their statements to indicate that they’re ONLY willing to agree to a short-term truce, and then for ONLY so long as they think it’ll take them to re-arm, re-equip and re-start their war against the other country, once they believe they can WIN.
It’s pretty blatantly obvious to most normal and thinking people that the Hamas-stanis have utterly no interest in any “peace” with Israel. This is not a “tactical” conflict between Israel and Hamas, it’s an EXISTENTIAL conflict and one which Israel has no choice but to fight and win.
As for the Palestinian casualties — tough titty for them. Perhaps it’s time someone within their leadership explained to their populace that there really and truly are CONSEQUENCES for shooting missiles into Israeli towns and villages.
Got news for you Phil. 7,500 unique visitors to this site since I wrote that post. If you include those who read the post on the main page and those who specifically loaded the post’s individual page it’s well over 1,200.
You don’t know what you’re talking about, Phil. A member of my synagogue, Beth Shalom was a key member of the planning committee. E mails were sent to members about the rally. It was announced on Shabbat fr. the bimah. The federation featured the notice for it on its site. JTNews had a prominent notice on its site. At the end of the rally, all the rabbis present were supposed to lead the group in singing Hatikvah or some such. You mean to tell me the rabbis of Seattle attended but kept the rally a secret from their members? 30 local groups co sponsored the rally. You mean to claim they didn’t publicize it to their members. Nice try, Phil. But the fact is that you had a decent, but by no means spectacular turnout of Israel’s die hard supporters in the community.
Those who are either progressive or too grossed out and disgusted by Israel’s actions simply didn’t show up.
The reason why my comments have a negative tone is because the right wingers are the ones who get most pissed off by my views and are most motivated to comment. And if you’re claiming this means my views are in a minority perhaps you’ll explain why my site traffic has gone up four fold since Gaza began, why I now have 300 daily subscribers, why I’ve been interviewed by KUOW, Swiss public radio, been published by The Guardian, and linked by blogs all over the world? Not to mention that you seem to be omitting the supportive commenters who publish in virtually all my threads.
You don’t have to buy people like you. You put quotation marks around “paid posters” and I never said you were & never used those words. So you’re in fact lying which is SOP for Israel Firsters like you. And if you ever deliberately fabricate quotations or lie about my views again you’ll never comment here again.
You do this for love (not money)–misguided, twisted love. But you do it out of devotion to a cause. Your comment was strikingly similar to the one other comment from someone who attended the rally. I had & have a sneaking impression that you didn’t come hear by accident and were either sent here by someone or by a local pro Israel group.
I’ll throw the question back at you: when will Israel site down & negotiate a comprehensive end to the conflict? And further, how CAN Hamas negotiate a comprehensive end to the conflict when it is Israel in fact which refuses to negotiate with Hamas (Hamas has always expressed willingness to negotiate with Israel). Usually to negotiate an end to a conflict you have to sit down & talk to the opposing party. Maybe you can come up w. a way to avoid doing this & still negotiate a settlement, but I haven’t figured out how to do that yet.
My comment rules do not allow derogatory terms to be used to name parties to this conflict. So use the term “Hamas-stani” again here & you’ll not do so ever again. Refer to people & parties by their proper names or don’t refer to them at all.
Why is it that Israel has consistently refused to allow the presence of international observers on its borders with the Occupied Territories? Could it possibly be that they don’t want such observers inhibiting their ability to attack the Territories at will?
Why is it that Israel has violated every treaty it has signed regarding the Palestinians going back to Oslo, if not earlier?
Why is it that you bring up a moribund document written over 20 years ago whose content no Hamas member has ever looked at as it gathered dust in some back office in Rafah? Why is it that the Republican and Democratic parties never implement any of the provisions of their own national platforms announced with fanfare every four years?
Why is it that Israel has never allowed the creation of a Palestinian state; nor has IT recognized Hamas as a legitimate political party representing Palestinians despite its being democratically elected to do so?
Why is it that Israel has never accepted the Green Line as ITS international border, nor has it presented any other border as a demarcation of its territorial control and ambitions?
Thanks to Israel’s refusal to recognize or talk to it Hamas is not a country. Palestinians have been begging to be a country for decades. Israel has refused. If Israel changed its mind, a Palestinian government whether headed by Fatah, Hamas, or any other party democratically elected would accord Israel all the trappings of ambassadors, etc. common to all the world’s nations. Get back to me when Israel does change its mind & then we can talk.
That’s actually your interpretation of Hamas’ intent. But that’s an interpolation made by a propagandist. No senior Hamas political leader has ever said anything remotely like that.
Then I guess the 60% of Democrats who oppose the Gaza invasion are abnormal people who don’t know how to think. Is that your claim? If so, how utterly condescending to your fellow Americans and Jews who hold views contrary to yours. The whole world shares your views. Those that don’t are mentally or morally deficient. How absurd & pitiful.
I only wish for you that sometime in your life one of your children has to suffer half of what 1.5 million people are now going through. That you would see one of your children in a bloodied bandage, barely breathing, close to death because of an unprovoked attack by a savage military force on an innocent civilian. Then you wouldn’t be so utterly callous and morally monstrous. There are at most 15-20,000 Hamas fighters in Gaza. The rest didn’t shoot any missiles at anyone. If you’re blaming them for that then you’re guilty of engaging in collective punishment, a violation of the Geneva conventions. We knew there was a moral vacuum in your brain. Now you’ve proven it.
Richard Silverstein said:
“Got news for you Phil. 7,500 unique visitors to this site since I wrote that post.”
Well, so you “claim”. I don’t see any “proof” of that, though. Why is that? Did you think you’re the only one who’s “allowed” to question other peoples’ claims?
“And if you’re claiming this means my views are in a minority…”
They ARE in the minority, by a sizable margin.
“Those who are either progressive or too grossed out and disgusted by Israel’s actions simply didn’t show up.”
Or they had laundry to do, or kids who needed help with their homework, or work to do around the house. In reality you have utterly no idea why the turnout was what it was. All you have are your “ass”-umptions for why more people didn’t show up. Where I come from, that’s called “ass”-uming facts not in evidence.
“….perhaps you’ll explain why my site traffic has gone up four fold since Gaza began…”
Well, so YOU ‘say’. But then, you WOULD say that, wouldn’t you? Again, I don’t see any ‘evidence’ being provided of this — and quite frankly and bluntly, your ‘word’ really just doesn’t cut it as far as I’m concerned.
“…why I now have 300 daily subscribers…”
So you ‘claim’.
“…. why I’ve been interviewed by KUOW, Swiss public radio, been published by The Guardian….”
The Guardian is a typically virulently anti-Israel left-wing rag. It’s hardly remarkable or surprising that they’d feature an American commenter whose views they already share. It’s not as though they went specifically looking for someone who could offer a contrasting or opposing view, is it?
“…. and linked by blogs all over the world?”
Am I “supposed to be” impressed or surprised that people who happen to agree with you would link to your blog? It’s nothing more than a worldwide circle-jerk linking people who share a vehement disagreement with the people of Israel and the choices which they and their elected leaders have made.
“So you’re in fact lying which is SOP for Israel Firsters like you.”
So, once again, you’re back to making sweeping bigoted generalizations and smears against INDIVIDUALS who disagree with you. Why am I not surprised? Let’s see, what Commandment covers that? Ohhh yeah, “Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor”. I suggest that you go back and read that one a few more times, Richard. It obviously didn’t quite “take” with you, did it?
“And if you ever deliberately fabricate quotations or lie about my views again you’ll never comment here again.”
Like, I “care”? ;->
“I had & have a sneaking impression that you didn’t come hear by accident and were either sent here by someone or by a local pro Israel group.”
So, yet AGAIN, you’re falling back once again on “hinting” or “suggesting” that because I openly express my vehement disagreement with your views, I “must have been” ‘sent’ here as a ‘shill’ by somebody. The only change is that this time you’re not accusing me of being “paid”. First you say that you never claimed I was being paid. Next, you just can’t help yourself or keep from inferring that I’m somebody’s “stooge” acting at someone else’s “suggestion” or “behest”.
Is a bit of paranoia creeping in there, Richard? Are you seeing enemies everywhere? Is AIPAC “out to get you” ?
“I’ll throw the question back at you: ”
Why don’t you try ANSWERING it, instead? Who’s engaging in the “diversionary tactics” now, Richard? Hmmmmm?
“when will Israel site down & negotiate a comprehensive end to the conflict?”
When they have a negotiating partner who is willing to sit down with THEM and to recognize Israel’s inalienable Right to exist — which, not incidentally, Hamas steadfastly refuses to do.
“And further, how CAN Hamas negotiate a comprehensive end to the conflict when it is Israel in fact which refuses to negotiate with Hamas (Hamas has always expressed willingness to negotiate with Israel).”
An utter lie. It’s Hamas which has consistently rejected any negotiation with Israel and which still – even now! – refuses to meet with Israelis to discuss a possible ceasefire. That’s the reason they’re relying on the Egyptians as intermediaries — because, as Hamas knows full well, meeting with an Israeli governmental representative is tantamount to recognizing the EXISTENCE of that State and government. And Hamas would rather die than do that.
“Usually to negotiate an end to a conflict you have to sit down & talk to the opposing party. Maybe you can come up w. a way to avoid doing this & still negotiate a settlement, but I haven’t figured out how to do that yet.”
I suggest that you spend some time examining how the U.S. government “talked to” the Imperial Japanese government in August 1945. The U.S. government essentially said, “SURRENDER, UNCONDITIONALLY, -NOW-, or we’ll turn what’s left of your country into a radioactive ashtray from one end of Japan to the other”. The Imperial Japanese government’s willingness to accept a “settlement” seemed to suddenly increase rather dramatically, forthwith.
“Why is it that Israel has consistently refused to allow the presence of international observers on its borders with the Occupied Territories?”
Why do you run from my questions, Richard? Why do you refuse to answer the questions I have posed to you? What are you afraid of? Is it so important to you to constantly find new and exciting ways to put the blame on Israel that you find it necessary to duck and evade even the simplest of questions?
The reason that Israel has opposed the placement of international observers on its border with Judea and Samaria is quite bluntly and obviously because in the past, those so-called “international observers” have proven themselves to be far less willing in Real Life to comply with their U.N.-mandated requirement to be impartial and nonpartisan. More than one U.N. “ambulance” has been found by the Israelis to have been used for the transporting of weapons and munitions. The Israelis have no particular reason to trust the U.N.
“Why is it that Israel has violated every treaty it has signed regarding the Palestinians going back to Oslo, if not earlier?”
Why don’t you answer my questions, Richard? What are you afraid of?
And where incidentally is your “proof” that “Israel has violated every treaty it has signed regarding the Palestinians going back to Oslo, if not earlier” ? I don’t see any such “evidence”.
“Why is it that you bring up a moribund document written over 20 years ago whose content no Hamas member has ever looked at as it gathered dust in some back office in Rafah?”
Because it clearly offers a devastatingly accurate view of Hamas’s view of the world and the conflict. And because it contains a lot of illuminating content which you no doubt find embarassing… stuff like, claiming that “the Jews” control the world’s financial systems, that “the Jews” have been responsible for all of the world’s wars, etc. Is that why you really don’t want to talk about Hamas’s founding Charter — which, by the way, is still in effect today?
And while we’re on the subject, how would you have the slightest clue as to whether or not that document is “moribund” or whether or not any Hamas member has ever looked at it in 20 years? Were you there?
“Why is it that the Republican and Democratic parties never implement any of the provisions of their own national platforms announced with fanfare every four years?”
They DO implement qiute a few of the provisions in their respective party platforms, or at least they certainly try to. Maybe you weren’t paying attention?
“Why is it that Israel has never allowed the creation of a Palestinian state….”
What do you call the palestinian Authority, if not the conceptual government of a Nation-State? HELLLOOOOOOOOOO?
“…. nor has IT recognized Hamas as a legitimate political party representing Palestinians despite its being democratically elected to do so?”
Where did you get the totally mistaken idea that Israel is somehow “required” to deal with Hamas?
Just because Hamas was democratically ‘elected’, does not mean they are ‘democratic’ in nature. In case you have been living in a cave and not paying attention, Hamas has been busily snuffing out any and all organized resistance to their brutal rule in Gaza. Fatah rallies have been broken up, even fired upon; people demonstrating peacefully have been shot dead by Hamas gunmen.
So the people of Gaza “democratically elected” a self-avowed terrorist group that has the blood of thousands of Israelis (the overhwelming majority of whom were civilians) on their hands. So what? All that means is that the Gazans are now morally culpable for the actions of their elected representatives. Therefore, it’s now completely okay to portray the Gazans as supporters of Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorism, because they voted the terrorists into power.
Hitler was democratically elected, too. Didn’t mean that the rest of the world was “required” to agree with or accept his policies.
“Why is it that Israel has never accepted the Green Line as ITS international border…..”
Because IT ISN’T a “border” and never was. Doesn’t matter worth a flying fark whether you WANT it to be a ‘border’. It’s not a border. Doesn’t matter worth a rat’s ass whether “The Rest Of The World” THINKS it “SHOULD BE” the border. It’s not a ‘border’. Never was. Never will be. All it is, is a cease-fire line — it’s where the Arab and Israeli forces happened to find themselves sitting at when the cease-fire was declared.
“…. nor has it presented any other border as a demarcation of its territorial control and ambitions?”
Because doing so requires there to be a negotiating partner on the other side of the table from Israel. And Hamas consistently refuses to negotiate ANYTHING AT ALL with Israel. As far as Hamas is concerned, the only thing to be “negotiated” is whether Israelis will dismantle their country sooner rather than later, and whether they will flee for other parts of the world by jet plane or by ship.
“Palestinians have been begging to be a country for decades. Israel has refused.”
Ohhh, so THAT’S why Rabin offered Arafat a breathtaking 95% of what he was asking for, huh? And when he didn’t get “exactly 100%” of what he wanted, Arafat unleashed the next “intifada”.
And IS THAT why the Israelis acceded to the creation of the Palestinian Authority, and willingly released hundreds of Palestinian terrorists, who’d committed attacks against Israelis, from Israeli jails? Hmmmmm?
“Then I guess the 60% of Democrats who oppose the Gaza invasion are abnormal people who don’t know how to think. Is that your claim?”
Show me where I ever mentioned “Democrats” at all? And what possible relevence is that? You ARE aware, I take it, that there are a lot of other voters out there BESIDES Democrats, and that their views and their votes count, too – right?
“If so, how utterly condescending to your fellow Americans and Jews who hold views contrary to yours. The whole world shares your views. Those that don’t are mentally or morally deficient. How absurd & pitiful.”
That’s YOUR position, Richard. Not mine. So kindly don’t ever presume to put words in my mouth again, no matter how ‘convenient’ you may find it to so so.
After all – ‘I’ am not the one who just can’t resist stooping to ‘suggesting’, ‘inferring’, ‘hinting’, etc. that anyone who comes here and disagrees with you is either a “Hasbara shill” (to loosely quote your own words) or someone who has been somehow “referred” or “sent” here by some other unknown but presumably ‘nefarious’ Israeli support group.
In fact, the ONLY person I see here who is even remotely engaged in that kind of conduct is — YOU, Richard.
Take a good look in the mirror, Richard. I hope you like what you see. I can easily live with my stance, my views, my statements. Can you say and do the same?
Or is this yet another unfortunate case of “Pot, meet Kettle” on your part?
Phil, you’ve expended hundreds, if not thousands of words & these will be your last in this thread. Like a good number of commenters who disagree w. me you have a serious case of loggohrea. Someone ought to stop you before you write again. I’ll do you the favor at least in this thread.
If you don’t believe my site stats there are endless ways in which you can discover how many visitors my site gets. I’m not in the business of going out of my way to prove anything to the likes of you. But you have ways you can do it yrself. I’m getting 2,000-3,000 unique visitors to this blog every day since the war began. Eat yr heart out.
Prove it. Withdrawal from West Bank settlements? U.S. Jews support it. Sharing Jerusalem? Israelis support it. Opposition to the Gaza invasion? 60% of Democrats (which 80+% of Jews are) oppose it. Negotiating with Hamas? Israelis support it. Attacking Iran? American Jews oppose it. Each of these is documented in non partisan opinion surveys linked in this blog. So precisely which of my views are in the minority?
I don’t care whether you believe what I said about the turnout for the rally. The proof is in the pudding. 1,200 turned out. That’s 2% of the local Jewish population. If the invasion was truly supported by the community more would’ve showed up. They didn’t. That’s what I know and it’s all I need to know. BTW, Seattle did a tad better than NYC, where a paltry 10,000 Jews turned out for a similar rally. Turns out that NY Jews are even more grossed out by Gaza than Seattle Jews.
Dear reader, keep in mind this is the very same person who boasted that he belongs to one of Seattle’s most liberal synaoguges. I guess somehow the liberalism hasn’t rubbed off on you now has it? “Virulently anti-Israel?” What stupidity. Who taught you these propaganda slogans anyway? Answer me a direct question: are you a member of Stand With Us? With inane views like the one you expressed above you must be. Only Jewish trogdolytes like those in SWU have such ridiculous views.
I NEVER WROTE you were paid by anyone. Do you understand what that means? NEVER. Not last time. Not ever. Make this claim again & you’ll be toast.
Tiresome stuff, Phil. Ahmed Youseff said in an interview broadcast on ISRAELI TV (weren’t you watching?) that Hamas was willing to meet Israel at any time and any place to negotiate. Israel, however, consistently rejects negotiations with Hamas. Frankly, I can’t believe your refusal to acknowledge reality. I’ve blogged about Yousef’s interview here. All you have to do is Google “Hamas willing to negotiate with Israel” & I’ll bet you’ll find numerous links to prove your ignorance.
Are you suggesting that Israel should drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza as the U.S. did on Japan? Avigdor Lieberman just suggested the same thing. So you’d be birds of a feather if you both feel this way. The diff. bet. WWII and now is that Hamas has not surrendered and will never surrender (unless Israel drops the big one–and then there wouldn’t be anything left for Hamas TO surrender).
You’re confusing your hasbara stories Phil. It wasn’t UN ambulances, it was Palestinian ambulances that Israel has accused the Palestinians of using to convey weapons. Such a charage has never to my knowledge been levelled against the UN. I dare you to prove otherwise.
What about that settlement freeze that was step 1 of the Road Map? What about the lifting of the siege that was part of previous ceasefires with Hamas? What about permitting free travel between Gaza and the West Bank that was part of an agreement brokered between the U.S. and Israel under Condi Rice’s auspices? What about the creation of that Palestinian state that was also part of the Road Map? Where I come from that’s called “evidence.”
Nonsense. The Hamas charter offers a 20 year old out of date propagandistic view of the movement’s views and aims as of that date. You don’t know jack about Hamas except what you read in Frontpagemagazine or at the Stand With Us website.
Because the NY Times ran a story on precisely this subject and drew basically the same conclusions as I. The reporter told Hamas leaders what the charter said and not only didn’t they know it, they claimed it would be impossible for it to say that. They simply didn’t even know their own charter, that’s how relevant it is to the business of the movement. It shows the utter impoverishment of yr world view that you’re not even aware that western news media have done stories on this subject & you don’t have a clue. Crack open a newspaper or a website once in a while aside from the Jerusalem Post & you might learn something.
Not only do you not know much about Israeli policy or Hamas, you don’t even know about American politics. Go back & read the Republican party platform & tell me how much of it they “implemented” in the last 8 yrs.
So now you’re saying that Hamas not only has to win a democratic election to be a legitimate Palestinian representative, but they have to smell just right and wear the right outfit for Israel to be willing to sit in the same room with them? Maybe Israel will want to dictate what the room arrangements are and the color scheme of the tablecloths for their first meeting with Hamas. Israel doesn’t get the right to determine which Palestinian party truly represents the Palestinians. They get to make that decision and they did in 2006. As long as Israel rejects this there will be ongoing catastrophe for both sides.
I ask you why Israel has refused to recognize a Palestinian state & you reply that they recognized a “conceptual government of a Nation-State?” I don’t even know what that gobbledy gook means. A state is a state. There is no Palestinian state. Period.
Afraid you’re wrong there pardner. It’s quite important to Israel that the rest of the world accept its definition of the international border. Because until then Israel will continue to elude acceptance in the world community. You may not give a rat’s ass about this but Israel does and so do its leaders. Jerusalem will never be accepted as Israel’s capital by the world until it accepts the Green Line and returns to the 67 borders. How much pleasure it will give me on the day such an agreement is signed between Israel and the Palestinians. You’ll be gnashing yr teeth. Do me a favor. Come back here so I can gloat that peace was achieved on terms I laid out and which you didn’t give a rat’s ass about.
Confusing your Israeli leaders aren’t you? Why should I have to give you lessons on this stuff since you’re supposedly the big pro-Israel macher. It was Barak, not Rabin. And he offered 91%, not 95%. And it was an insufficient offer. Even Clinton staffers who were there like Aaron David Miller recognize the offer wasn’t going to fly.
Let me spell it out for you since you’re having a hard time following my argument. 80-85% of Jews are Democrats. If 60% of Democrats oppose the Gaza assault, and those who oppose outnumber those who support by 30 points, then it stands to reason that Jews, aside from you and the rest of the extremist pro-Israel crowd, are at least evenly divided about the conflict.
You bet. I’m proud to have earned the enmity of an ignorant, prejudiced person like yrself. I’d be disappointed in myself if I didn’t.
“That’s actually your interpretation of Hamas’ intent. But that’s an interpolation made by a propagandist. No senior Hamas political leader has ever said anything remotely like that.”
WRONG AGAIN.
“On January 26, 2004, senior Hamas official Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi offered a 10-year truce, or hudna, in return for a complete withdrawal by Israel from the territories captured in the Six Day War, and the establishment of a Palestinian state (it remade the same offer after winning the majority in the PLC, accepting the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative.
Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin stated that the group could accept a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Rantissi confirmed that Hamas had come to the conclusion that it was “DIFFICULT TO LIBERATE ‘ALL’ OUR LAND AT THIS STAGE, SO WE ACCEPT A ‘PHASED LIBERATION.”
He said the truce could last 10 years, THOUGH “NOT MORE THAN 10 YEARS”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas
If you’re quoting al-Rantissi that must mean that he runs Hamas & that those in the movement take their orders fr. him, right? What’s that you say? He’s dead? Assassinated by the IDF? Well then how does he determine what current Hamas attitudes & policies are. What’s that you say? He doesn’t? But how could that be? Phil says al-Rantisi is running the show. How could Phil be wrong?
Seriously, al-Rantisi has been dead for a few years. He has no impact on today’s Hamas. Now, if you find me a similar statement by the 2 senior leaders of the group today, Khaled Meshal & Ismail Haniye, then we can talk.
I googled the words “hamas charter new york times” which led me to the article “Hamas Leader Sees No Change Toward Israelis” (from 2006). Here are some quotes:
This is the New York Times, and as you can see the Charter and the ideology behind it is still very relevant.
In fairness the article also said,
But the article presents zero evidence of this “softness”.
Here is one article I was referring to from none other than the J. Post. One can argue that if Israel wasn’t so busy trying to off Hamas that the movement might’ve actually gotten around to rewriting its charter as it planned to do according to this 2006 article which you should grapple with.
The absolute falsity of arguing anything credible about Hamas from its 1988 charter is the score or more of articles by & about senior Hamas leaders noting their willingness to accept, even if grudingly, Israel’s existence. Your attempting to argue what Hamas believes even from a 2006 article makes it out of date as views have changed in the interim. But leaving all that aside, if Israel keeps killing off Hamas senior leaders then it may not even have the privilege of dealing with Hamas as its interlocutor. It may have a Palestinian version of Osama bin Laden as its future enemy. Then it truly will have gotten the enemy it deserves.
What Israel doesn’t understand is that even if it exterminates Hamas it has not exterminated the Palestinian people. They have a national will. If there is no Hamas there will be something else. It’s not like destroying Hamas automatically turns the Palestinians into malleable robots willing to do Israel’s bidding.
The Hamas charter and islam itself, call for the death of every jew on earth. What part of that is hard to understand?
The part that you, ignoramus that you are, made up.