Thanks to reader Alex Stein for forcing me to write a post I hate to write with every fiber of my being. An Indian news report claims that many of the Mumbai hostages were tortured before being killed and that the Chabad hostages were tortured most brutally of all. IF (and I stress “if” because stories like this must be confirmed and reconfirmed before they are accepted as truth) this story is true, it could set back Jewish-Muslim relations years if not decades. Not to mention, that it will further alienate Israeli Jews from believing it is possible to live in peace with the region’s Muslims.
Further, if it is true, then I will have to withdraw my earlier claims that anti-Semitism was an ancillary part of the strategy involved in this attack. If the Jewish victims were tortured savagely, then it will lead me to believe that there are much stronger links to Al Qaeda than I previously believed. Until now, I’d never thought that Pakistani militants hated the west and Jews specifically as Al Qaeda does. I’d thought their cause was more locally-determined. If the news is correct, then I think Pakistan, India and the entire region have a much bigger problem on their hands then previously thought.
Further, if the hostage torture indeed occurred it makes the Indian authorities decision to fight the terrorists slowly and deliberately a completely tragic and wrong-headed one. If they had attacked early, then it might have given the terrorists less time to commit such mayhem.
Finally, I would urge that when and if they find the mastermind of this attack that he should be tried before an international tribunal. The horror of these acts needs to be addressed not by the justice system of a single country, but by international justice. The world needs to universally condemn such brutalism.
I don’t wish to offer unsolicited advice to my Muslim readers, friends and others, but the Mumbai attack appears to have been done in the name of Kashmir, Palestine and Muslim suffering in general. Now, much like after 9/11, it is critical that the world hear from sane Muslims that this is a way they reject utterly and absolutely. To do so does not mean that Muslims must renounce their criticism of, or grievances against conditions they face. It means they must ostracize those who kill in the name of Islam or Muslim suffering.
I have been dedicated to Muslim-Jewish dialogue for many, many years. This horrific story will not deter me from my commitment. But it will set back all of our good work by so very much. I simply cannot understand the bestial savagery that lurks in the human mind (and note I said “human” mind and not “Muslim” mind–since the beast lurks in all of us).
Finally, I want to again emphasize that Alex provided only a single Indian source to confirm the torture claim. The Times of India, one of the nation’s most respected papers doesn’t mention this story [see UPDATE below]. Further, that news source does not name any of the doctors it quotes. Unnamed sources in this situation should not be considered reliable. Other previous elements of the Mumbai terror story were shown to be false on further investigation. It’s entirely possible that this claim too will prove false, though I fear it may not. If anyone can confirm that this report is false, please let me know ASAP.
UPDATE: Thanks again to Alex for pointing me to this Times of India story that acknowledges the possibility of torture, but in a very preliminary and tentative way, unlike the Rediff story.
UDPATE I: The Jerusalem Post casts doubt on the veracity of the torture claims after interviewing a Mumbai doctor who examined the Israeli bodies and judged they had not been tortured.
I have only one piece of advice to ALL misguided Islamic Jihadist (terrorists) who believe that by killing Jews, Westerners or Americans they are adhering to Quranic principles and the Islamic faith. You all all cowards, cowards, cowards and you have no sense of spiritual honor or worth. You are sick misguided people, who know nothing about God, his ways , or his desires. But rest assured, “Those who live by the sword, will surely die by the sword” and you will not go to a heavenly kingdom as God’s martyr, but rather straight to hell, gehenna, Sheol or whatever your Quran calls such a place. You will never get to heaven and God (allah) and Mohammed cannot change this! You are lost deranged individuals who belong to your father SATAN, LUCIFER, THE DEVIL and unless you change your way of thinking will end up with your souls being tortured for all eternity in more evil ways than you can possibly imagine when you truley find out the truth of your misguided ways and lifestyles. I’m sure that non of this matters to types like you, but the only Jihad God (Allah) ever wanted you to fight was the one within yourselves to become a better person;one who fights against a spiritual battle against all of your weaknesses instead of a human against human battle. God (Allah) created all human beings and they are all sacred in his eyes and he desire all to live with him in paradise. However, when you kill, especially innocent people you have sinned against God and unless you ask him for forgiveness and turn from your wicked ways–HELL not HEAVEN is the only place that awaits your eternal souls.
Thanks for this. I’d also like to add that my posting it doesn’t mean I accept it, for the same reasons as Richard. Rediff is one of India’s leading web-portals, though (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rediff) I don’t know much about the veracity of its reporting.
Here’s a Times of India article raising the possibility of torture (although he also says that the mutilation could be because of the grenades and shooting):
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/Number_of_Jews_killed_in_Mumbai_attacks_could_rise_Israeli_official/articleshow/3778464.cms
This article could be true and I know members at rediff who went from hospital to hospital interviewing doctors. These terrorists were extremely sadistic and there were other cases of torture reported by rediff that didn’t include Jews.
Richard you are right these terrorists have targeted specific communities. What Al Qaeda has managed to do is consolidate a single global message and international consensus for all separatist factions around the world.
But please don’t be disheartened – they want to de-rail all peace efforts between India-Pakistan, Israel-Palestine, US-Iraq so that they can sit back smug and think themselves to be the instrument behind it. They want Indians, Israelis and the US to attack muslim nations to sever ties with them so that these nations and the people within them will feel isolated and turn to extremists like LeT and Al Qaida.
I will write you a note on this and send it to you tommrow.
“…I simply cannot understand …..?
So wy writing posts if you do not understand the dark reality??
@Alex Stein: Gitanjali has a close friend who helped Rediff report this story & I’ve asked him to do what he can to confirm the story & ensure there’s no possibility that either the doctor’s or reporter’s might’ve gotten it wrong. You can’t be too careful w. an incendiary story like this. Either it’s wrong & based on a misunderstanding or worse an ulterior motive; or it’s right & Muslim Jewish relations will go to Hell in a handbasket.
I am surprised you are so concerned. Aren’t the circumstances bad enough even without the torture?
I just want everyone on this blog to know that after every bomb blast that Mumbai has incurred there has always been a very real threat of communal riots. After the ’93 blasts riots in Bombay were extremely gruesome. The people who died were average mumbaikars not these terrorists. Don’t let this happen please and please read this story that was written by Matthew Schneeberger at rediff. It will help you understand what Mumbai is and should be about. http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/02mumattacks-why-do-they-hate-a-city-of-dreams.htm
@Alex Stein: You’re not implying that I’m not disturbed about the terror attack are you? Of course the circumstances are “bad enough.” But torture adds an even more disturbing dimension. Surely you can understand that.
The story in question tells
The doctors who conducted the post mortem said the bodies of the terrorists were beyond recognition. “Their faces were beyond recognition.”
Well that is absurd. A considerable number of terrorists and everybody’s face shot to pieces. It seems that “somebody” doesn’t want them to be identified. Now “we” can “freely” choose the organizer and deny local ties. The mystical Al Qaida naturally.
“IF (and I stress “if” because stories like this must be confirmed and reconfirmed before they are accepted as truth) this story is true, it could set back Jewish-Muslim relations years if not decades.”
Were you born yesterday? What happened in Mumbai is nothing new. You think this is the first time Jews have been brutally murdered or tortured by Muslims?
Anyway, I doubt it will set back Jewish-Muslim relations since there are plenty of apologists like you, forever making excuses for the terrorists and extremists of this world and pointing the finger at — who else? — the U.S. and Israel.
Conversely, if it isn’t true, we have an obligation to spread the word and quell the rumours.
I’m not implying that, no.
“You’re not implying that I’m not disturbed about the terror attack are you?”
Of course you are disturbed by terror attacks. But you are an apologist for terrorists. This is easy to do when you live in Seattle. Leave your bubble and go live in Sderot, Israel, and preach to us from there.
As was said, if there was torture, that would not surprise me, not because Muslims are specially gruesome people, but simply because they just happen to be educated that way and any dissent is seen as treason.
So ,and that would apply for any human being of any faith, if you were brainwashed from cradle that Jews are less than dogs , one should not be surprised of the end result.
The problem is not with the people per-se but the faith behind them.
Whether there was torture or not, I don’t think there is a way, as for today, that Islam can coexist with any other faith on an equal base, be they Jews, Hindus, Bahai ,Christians, or from any other faith. Christian Catholics had the same problem 500 years ago.
Torture is horrific–the killing of innocent people is horrific, but how exactly is this incident more horrific than countless other atrocities committed by human beings all over the world, with every conceivable ideology? There’ve been somewhere between 100,000 and 1 million dead in Iraq, many of them tortured first. Apparently around 80,000 have been killed in Kashmir over the past several decades, many by the Indian security forces. Muslims were killed by the hundreds in Gujarat in 2002, with the connivance of local Indian officials. One would think that would make people wonder if Muslims and Hindus can live in peace (not to mention what happened in the Partition massacres).
As for Jews and Muslims, one could go on and on and on listing the atrocities that members of each group have committed against the other. This massacre in Mumbai is horrible, but if people decide it means Jews and Muslims can’t live together, chances are that’s because they were already predisposed to believe that.
As for an international tribunal, I think the planners of this massacre deserve this, but they should get in line. But we all know which particular planners of mass atrocities stand some chance of standing trial for their crimes–it’s never Western leaders.
Is your naivite so complete or is this a pose???? Given the long history of the glorification of extreme cruelty in Muslim culture, (especially Arab culture – just look at how admired Saddam the torturer was and the sexual mutilation of Israeli soldiers by Syrians in the Yom Kippur War,the honor killings of women who dare to have romantic feelings by their brothers and fathers) and the reports of Indian pathologists with no particular political axe to grind, why is there any doubt in your mind at all about the reports of torture???? There is an assumption among many in the West that their humanist ideals — that everyone is entitled to some minimum level of respect by virtue of being human, that one should value the lives and welfare of strangers — are universal. If you spend any time in the Middle East you will realize how false this assumption is despite lying claims to the contrary by many spokesmen from Arab and Muslim countries. (It is considered a virtue in this part of the world to be loyal to your cause and lie to friend, enemy, and outsider alike in order to advance your agenda and present a story which glorifies yourself. Any less, any devotion to the truth for its own sake is considered shameful weakness or naivite which should be exploited with cynicism and scorn.) Israel is part way between the Middle East and the West in these respects. The idea that ‘if true this sets back Jewish-Muslim relations’ is ludicrous. Of course it’s true! The Muslim side takes for granted its right to dominate all others and an idea of justice that refers only to one side’s grievances. Your sensitivity, willingness to believe and trust the ‘other’ over your own, your doubt of those you agree with — some of these traits have value in the context of a peaceful and law-governed society. But that’s not who your dealing with when you are addressing Islamist terrorists and their supporters or, for the most part, leaders of the Islamic world in general. Their culture, values, and understanding of the world and of interpersonal relations are radically different than yours. Stop pretending they’re not — your attitude puts my life in danger and makes demands on my country that impair our ability to defend ourselves against a genocidal threat.
B”H
One more confirmation of the torture:
”
Mumbai attacks: Jews tortured before being executed during hostage crisis
Israeli hostages killed by Islamic terrorists during the attacks on Mumbai (formerly Bombay) were tortured by their captors before they were bound together and killed, according to officials in both countries.
By Damien McElroy in Bombay
Last Updated: 7:52AM GMT 02 Dec 2008
”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/3539171/Mumbai-attacks-Jews-tortured-before-executed-during-hostage-crisis.html
In a further upset the Jewish Muslim dialog the terrorists tortured and executed a woman (Rivka Holzberg) who was 5 months pregnant:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/128668
On the other hand it seems the terroris may have been on crack and LSD while performing their heroic deeds ( http://www.israelnationalnews DOT com/News/Flash.aspx/156800
so they deserve posthumous drug reabilitation instead of our condemnation and the piece by piece process (sorry I meant Muslim Jewish dialog) can continue till the last grain of sand of Eretz Yisrael is given to Arabs for promises to stop their justified resistance to occupation of Kfar Yunis (Tel Aviv) and other parts of the holy land of Yisrael.
And Richard and his friends can go proceed to become figures of universal admiration by raising money to help the stream of Israeli Jews seeking refuge on these shores showing great tolerance by making sure that Chareidim among the Jewish refugees receive only strictly kosher food.
And helping to place the barbaric Jewish settlers in anti-cult deprograming programs to be cured from any shred of belief in the words of the Torah that have been determined to be politically incorrect as long as needed for them to lose their yarmolkas tzitzis and beards to spare Richard and his friends for shameful guilt by association.
Hi Richard,
I fully, wholeheartedly and passionately denounce the carnage in Mumbai.
What has happened here is the beginning of a recruitment drive. The first stage is a thoroughly brutal, merciless attack, the more terror the better to incite retaliatory communal violence — the result of which is more fresh recruits to the jihadi camp.
Look what happened the last time there was a huge outbreak of communal violence in India against Muslims. The jihadis obtained a powerful new ally in Ibrahim Dawood, the crime boss turned instrument of revenge, and god knows who else took up their cause.
Restraint from responses that impart collective responsibility and suffering are the best foil.
The torture of the rabbi specifically shows an Al Qaeda link. Read this excellent article by Cairo-based journalist Nathan Fields: “Al Qaeda plans to ‘rebrand’ itself in Arab world by targeting Israel-only Hezbollah won’t let it.” (the headline I gave this story when I posted it at my site)
http://www.thenational.ae/article/20081010/REVIEW/622469463/1008
The only reason we haven’t seen Al Qaeda bloodbaths in Israel is because Hezbollah keeps them from getting into positions from which to do so. Israel could slop Muslim blood from one end of the Middle East to the other and it wouldn’t matter to AQ since they think most Muslims are worthless infidels, deviants and heretics too.
Richard-
Though I am sure you are kind, you are also a silly person. There is no insightfulness in your comment that if these stories are true that you fear that the region may have bigger problems than already thought- thought by who? Perhaps only you. India has been a constant target of terror attacks for the last several years that have killed hundreds of people. There is no lack of derangement in the minds of some of the Muslim community in blaming the state of Israel for all their self-inflicted woes. Where is there a successful and integrated, predominantly Muslim state, save the one we in effect created in Northern Iraq by deposing Hussein? Also don’t hold your breath waiting for the Muslim world to join the howls of outrage about what has happened in India. Oddly those voices are always silent except when someone prints cartoons or floats stories about outrages that never occurred. Stop apologizing. The only court that the animals who do these types of things should be tried in involves Delta and spec operators with night vision and M-4’s-
@Ariel: Please do not ever quote here Arutz Sheva or other right wing extremist Israeli media sites as support for anything you write here. Their reports are simply not credible. In addition, read the Jerusalem Post story I linked to in Update I above. The torture story is rapidly losing credibility. And thank God for that.
I have no problem with the religious practices of settlers or other Orthodox Jews. I have a problem with politics disguised as religion, which is what characterizes extremist settlers like Dov Wolpe & others.
@Kevin: Your views are disgusting, despicable & racist.
@Tel Avivi: Yet another Israeli right-wing Muslim-hating racist. Welcome brother.
Maybe because the usually right wing Jerusalem Post debunked the story. I like to wait before judging things. Apparently, Muslim haters like you don’t need something to actually be true. Any old smear will do.
You have not really spent any time in the Middle East. You’ve spent time in that little hothouse of anti-Muslim sentiment called right wing Israel. That doesn’t help you much in understanding anything of what’s going on around you though.
NO! It is YOUR attitude that puts yr own life in danger. You don’t need me to do that for you. If it wouldn’t kill so many other innocent perfectly decent Israelis and Arabs, I’d wish you the best as you ride–a la Slim Pickens in Dr. Strangelove–that thermonuclear device down to rain on the heads of all those nasty A-rabs.
Your comment violates my comment rules in spades. The next time you publish such racism you’ll be banned fr. further commenting.
Salaam:
I agree with your recruitment point. You seem to be voice of reason amongst these comments. I think we need to spend more time analyzing the motives behind this act and less time trying to attack each other.
Karnak:
I think religion is open to interpretation and therefore it is the men who interpret it not the religion itself that should be held accountable.
Richard:
I think we should just move on with further discussions. I was hear and the act was horrific enough. I have read countless stories from witnesses and what they had to go through should not in any way be minimalized by your new findings in the Jerusalem Post or on rediff.
I agree we have all heard and still hear horrible stories of bloodshed and carnage and under no circumstances can I ever believe in a rational mindset that the answer to this is more carnage.
Here’s the article:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702405844&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
(The Jerusalem Post, “Mumbai doctor finds no signs of torture on Chabad House bodies”)
Rediff used to be a very politically correct portal and if they have published reports of torture, then it cannot be taken lightly. The Times of India on the other hand has not done much follow through reporting this time. I am still searching for more reports, since like yourself, I could find few refrences to torture.
I am among the vast majority of non-Muslims who don’t have the need to torture innocent civilians, contrary to what you would suggest.
Unless the problem is recognized for what it is as that of RADICAL ISLAM, more innocents will die and entire cities and societies will be destroyed. Stop coddling an evil ideology and get behind the war on terror before you and your loved ones become victims too.
@Sol Rosenberg: The problem of Pakistani militants, whether they be Lashkar or the Taliban is larger than radical Islam, though that is part of it. It involves religious nationalism, territorial disputes, and old historic national grievances. To reduce this to the issue of radical Islam once again fits neatly into a right wing pro-Israel world view, but does no justice to the real issues & how complicated they are.
The “war on terror” as codified by George Bush is one of the most noxious political phrases in the U.S. and world lexicon. May it die an untimely death. That doesn’t mean I’m opposed to fighting terror as my recent posts should indicate to anyone who reads them.
Richard, The attackers ordered liquor (besides huge quantities of food) while staying at Nariman House prior to this incident. So I really wonder if they are radical Muslims or in fact Muslims at all. Anyway, the place I am from, its common to have CIA recruit local people for local epsionage. So in a nutshell, we have the real Taliban and then we have the CIA Taliban both fighting different wars and in fact the CIA killing more innocents. I know, in Seattle its kinda hard to imagine that CIA-Mossad would be doing these kind of things in third-world countries and easy to label somebody like me pointing it out as a conspiracy theorist but its open knowledge over the other side of Atlantic. Anyway, Richard, the point is don’t move over to the dark side yet. There is hope in the Jewish-Muslim dialogue.
That was fast. You went right to racist. Gee you must be right. Racist in what way? To point out the fact there is not a normally functioning and integrated state in which Islam is a predicate in the modern world? That is not racist, it is fact. So too that Indian civilians have been targets of terrorists from Kashmir and Pakistan for years. Or were you offended by the idea that the “people” who slaughter innocent Jews Hindus Christians Muslims and even animists in sub-saharan Africa should be dealt with in the harshest possible manner? Sorry to break it to you but in the real world of life and death, facts trump sentiment and none of the “martyrs” are reading your blog softening their thinking due to your ecumenism. And by the way, it has been several days that we’ve had to digest all of this and I am still not deafened by the Muslim community’s denouncements of these thugs and those who supported their efforts-
This is I hope my last post to this situation and final word. 1) Pakistan needs to shore up political difficulties with India as fast as the can before its too late. Admit that you have terrorists training and living in your backyard. 2) India needs to have every doctor who worked on this case along with Israel provide a loud and clear statement to the world (Officially) as to the physical condition of the Jewish people who were murdered i.e were there bodies only riddled as well as their faces with bullets so that they were beyond recognition, or were there actual torture markings? And if so, what exactly were they. I’m sure the Israeli governement saw their peoples bodies and can report this properly. 3) Murder and terrorism no matter where it is found is not justifiable–so quit trying to justify it by posting blogs as to the credibility of torture or not! Mumbai was terrible and those who suffered and died can tell you that best–if they were able to! Peace and Security and Safety are the rights of all people on this earth and no ne has the right to take such things from anyone–period. STOP attempting to make this into a Jewish, Arab problem becasue it is a problem with ideologies and mindsets of ill and sick misguided people no matter where they may be found or camped out in this world. Parents teach your children to love one another and to love others as God loves us–Hate of any sort is evil and mankind will destroy itself if this doesn’t change. So where do we start? We start with ourselves–first one, then two then more and more and sooner or later the world will be changed.
Kevin :
Indian-Muslim clerics refuse to accept terrorists in their cemeteries
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=4n_CLsozSDw&eurl=http://www.juancole.com/
I admit I too am frustrated because we never hear the moderate voice of Islam at times. It is drowned out by extremists and fundamentalists. We need to allow the rational and moderate voices to speak.
To me the main problem is not so much with the extremist but more with the so called moderate majority.
This majority truly believe that Islam spread out peacefully, that Islam in itself is a religion of peace and moreover that it is the perfect faith.
This is the core belief of the great majority of Muslims not just of the fundamentalist.
The extremist indeed seem to be the ones who are the most frustrated and active about it.
I tend to think that the difference between the extremist and the majority is not so much in the content but rather in the mode of action. Let’s not forget that pretty much until the gruesome acts of Zarkawi all over the Muslim world, no one in this Muslim world seemed to be disturbed by human bombs blowing themselves up in the middle of civilian crowds.
Only when the boomerang came back did we start to hear and read in Muslim newspapers some discomfort about these acts.
@Kevin:
There have been hundreds of statements by Muslims distancing themselves fr. these attacks. Don’t you know how to use Google?
The Muslim community btw has refused the terrorists burial in a Muslim cemetery. A Muslim reader informs me that this isn’t even done for murderers. It’s a huge form of ostracism & denunciation. It’s the equivalent of condemning their souls to hell.
But you wouldn’t acknowledge that would you?
We are so quick to tie every bomb to Al Qaeda that we overlook the geopolitical factors behind each conflict.
India has seen terrorists of ALL religious stripes, from Sikh to Hindu to even Buddhist. So is it really fair to single out Islamic terrorists just because they currently happen to be in the spotlight?
Besides, India’s brand of Islam has historically been more progessive than its Middle Eastern variant. Perhaps because the former takes its cues from Indian (Hindu) culture, while the latter remains steeped in Arab culture.
I would like to comment on the blog from B.Barnavi. He states, “We are so quick to focus on every bomb being from al-Quaeda” and ignore the geopolitical aspects…. Please do not missunderstand B.BarNavi, but with respect, one must realize that in order to carry out a terrorist plot to the level which occurred in Mumbai, it took planning, funding, orgainization, and perhaps, even state sponsorship. This is not possible with many of the smaller terrorist groups–because they simply do not have the resources or possibility to plan to this level. However al-Quaeda does. It is also, well known, that al-Quaeda has and tries to involve every other type of terrorist group it can convince to join its ranks! No one is ignoring the geopolitical aspects, but rather seeing the situation for what it is–al-Quaeda.
Now your beloved NYT takes up the torture story: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/world/asia/05mumbai.html?_r=2&hp
@Alex Stein: I wish to God someone would get this story right. First they were tortured, then not, then they were.
I just hope Pakistan cooperates so they can get everyone behind this filthy operation.
Gitanjali thank you for the link. As you indicated the Muslim Council Trust is an Indian group in Mumbai who I am sure are incensed at what’s been done in their city. Not surprising, though certainly a show of their humanity, so cheers to them. Interestingly phrased condemnation in the clip in saying that since the killers victimized innocents they cannot be Muslims. Unfortunately many clerics disagree with them, evidence of which can also be found through Google- This is one of the biggest issues within Islam. Until the issue of abrogation is fully dealt the situation will not change. It would be refreshing if some of the moderate clerics would condemn the living once in a while too- like the “spiritual” advisors of Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood who think it is perfectly fine to kill Jews and infidels. Richard can you bring that question up at the next ecumenical get together. Unfortunately the moderate voices are likely to be silenced by the fear that they will end up like a Danish doodler or filmmaker if they speak too loudly. Why is it that the loudest questioners come from outside Islam. I think rational people are less concerned with the show of hands reflecting displeasure at what was done after the fact, than the lack of consistent and outspoken criticism by high profile Muslims of their soulless cousins on an ongoing basis. I ask this honest question because I do not know the answer: is there something within the Islamic tradition which makes serious self-criticism and reform difficult or impossible? Can the internal journey of Jihad that moderates describe be focused on the human administration of Islam itself? Some self-searching certainly seems due.
@Kevin:
You simply don’t have a clue about Islam. You know nothing about it as a religion. You clearly don’t know any Muslims. You know what you read in whatever publications or sources you read which imbue you w. ignorance & hate.
Would you care to answer me why no Orthodox rabbis are denouncing the pogrom committed in the name of Judaism by the Hebronistas today? And do I denounce all of Judaism & every Jew because a large group of extremists believe odious things? No. Are these people really Jews? Alas, yes. But they betray all the values I hold dear in being a Jew myself.
And the same with Islam. A handful are psychopathic nutcases. That is no relfection on the religion as a whole. And I have no patience w. people like you who attempt to make the argument that ‘Islam is this’…or ‘Islam is that’…when you don’t know shit from shinola. What legitimate, authoritative book about Islam have you read? None.
I find objectionable your singling out Islam & saying it resists reform. Orthodox versions of all religions resist reform including my own, Judaism. It’s inherent in the nature of Orthodoxy. It’s not a Muslim trait, it’s a human trait.
So knock off the “blame the Muslims” bit or you’ll be history. Check out my comment rules if you really care about what the parameters of discourse are here. You don’t blame Jews and you don’t blame Muslims for the sins of the world. If you do, as I said, you’re history.
“It isn’t really fair to single out Islamic terrorists” – only someone who is ignorant of life in India can say that…
Since 1989, when the honorable Mrs. Bhutto, as Prime Minister of Pakistan, launched terrorism in Indian Kashmir leading to genocide of a quarter million hindus (http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/insight9706.html), on average more than 2000 indians have been slaughtered in India by ISLAMIC terrorists. Thats like a 9/11 EVERY YEAR since 1989!!
Hindus generally have a live-and-let-live attitude, but Pakistan’s terrorist actions have led to some radicalisation among them as well. Pakistan’s CIA – the ISI has openly declared to “bleed India with a thousand cuts” and its state-sponsored terrorism and Pakistan has waged FOUR wars against India in the past 60-odd years.
Imagine:
1. California separated from the Christian-dominated US and became an independent ISLAMIC country
2. Islamic California waged 4 wars against the US after independence
3. Islamic California became a nuclear power and carried out a 9/11 type incident EVERY YEAR for the past TWENTY years without fear of reprisal from the nuclear US with the threat of nuclear war hanging like the sword of Damocles
4. Islamic California wants to annex Arizona, since it is a majority muslim state and has driven Arizonian Christians out of the state by pushing terrorists into Arizona and aided by Arizonian muslims, who carry out slaughter of innocents – torture and rape, leading to exodus of Christians out of Arizona who become refugees in their own country.
In the above – substitute California with Pakistan, US with India, Kashmir with Arizona and the refugees with Arizonian Christians and now… is it fair to single out Islamic terrorism? You tell me, Mr. Barnavi!
In the above simulation, would you also allow the US Chritians to not feel too kindly towards other muslims in the US? Its all very well to shout “racism”, but hey, you’ve got to experience life in India and see what it is to be a Hindu.
Its a tribute to the tolerance of the 80% hindus that there are still 12% (and growing) population of muslims in India with opportunities to the “indian dream” – they have a separate muslim law – allowed to marry as many women they want and divorce them uttering a word 3 times – the top hollywood actor, Shahrukh Khan is a muslim – there have been several muslim presidents – the Indian Cricket team has several muslim players – the Govt subsidizes mulim pilgrimage to Mecca – there is even a affirmative action program for muslims in schools. And some still complain of being marginalized.
“Why is it that the loudest questioners come from outside Islam?”
Kevin I appreciate the change in your tone and I rather you question openly and honestly than denounce any religion. These thoughts are shared by many and we need to address these questions in a correct manner.
First, It’s not just in the Muslim community that the moderate voices are rarely heard. In Mumbai we have aggressive groups like MNS (Maha Navnirman Sena)speaking for the State of Maharshtra but this doesn’t necessarily mean that all Maharashtrians/locals in Mumbai share their views.
Another point is that perhaps the media should be encouraged to cover the Muslim moderate voice more. Perhaps these people are speaking but nobody wants to cover them. I have one such example of someone who asks for reform in Islam
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP143807
Maybe certain people would not agree with his views and find them a bit exaggerated but I still think that we need these voices in every religion. Religion must adapt to time and context.
If anybody can suggest a forum where Kevin can hear moderate voices from within Islam that denounce terrorism and fundamentalism please post a link.
“STOP attempting to make this into a Jewish, Arab problem becasue it is a problem with ideologies and mindsets of ill and sick misguided people no matter where they may be found or camped out in this world.”
Marc47 Thank you for your thoughts on the matter. I wish the debate had ended there.
B”H
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# On December 4th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Richard Silverstein said:
@Alex Stein: I wish to God someone would get this story right. First they were tortured, then not, then they were.
I just hope Pakistan cooperates so they can get everyone behind this filthy operation.
And let’s say they were not tortured just mecifully shot.
The rabbi the pregnant rebbetzin and the Israeli , American and Mexican Jews who were guests in the Chabad house, doesn’t it show you once again that giving away parts of holy land to comply with our more ‘moderate’ foes claims about what we must do according to so called international law cannot bring peace because they and their more extreme comrades (who are really the only ones that matter in the long term as far as security of the Jews and Israel is concerned) couldn’t care less about international law or UN resolutions when they go against their reading of the Quaran so you can G-d forbid give away half the Jerusalem the Golan, the setlements create even more misery unemployment , divorces, crime, etc. among the holy Yiddn who you want to throw out from their land as was done in 2005 ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3076127704169780877&hl=en ) and nothing will improve because the Arabs want the whole Yerushalaim (Al Quids) not just Eastern half they also want Tel Aviv (Kfar Yunis ) and they will continue killing Jews in the Land of israel and worldwide even after they get more land and we are thereby weakened even more economically ,militarily and politically not to mention the morale of the soldiers .
i think one solution would be to quote the Rebbe’s words for those who want to give away land simply pack their bags and leave the country because that is what the ultimate result of their actions entails (at best)…
@Ariel:
Your comment is full of lies and anti-Arab calumny. It is little diff. than the Jew/Israel haters who rant about Jewish/Israeli genocide against the Arab peoples. You’re entitled to yr opinions, benighted as they may be. But the next time you make sweeping racist conclusions about what Arabs believe you will be banned fr. further commenting.
I’d rather have a dialogue of the hearing here, rather than the deaf. And you are deaf.
According to the collected testimony of witnesses including Zaka, not only were the victims brutally tortured, but the toddler’s body was covered with the bruises of a savage beating. Two of the women were bound to a bed, one by one, and executed while the men were in the other room. The bodies were then drug by the surviving men in to where the men were held, where they were covered by talesim. The men were then tied to a wall with their hands above their heads, by telephone cord, tortured and shot. Once they bled out, each man was drug by the next into the room with the bodies until the last was left tied by his wrists to the wall to die. Rabbi Gabriel was the last man to be executed. Rivka was the only exception to this, as she was holding the baby, just beaten after crying. The only break in the killing and beatings came when the police tried to take the building, forcing the terrorists to leave the child with the bodies of the adults. Rivka was then shot to death. Sandra came to rescue the baby during the brief assault on the building as he sat in his mothers life blood.
Oh hey Richard! Long time no see!
So, you deny that arabs (and by that I mean the actual power structures that command “palestinian” terrorism) want the whole Jerusalem? Arafat was very clear about that, and Hamas is marching on in the best of his tradition.
When I was in Munich a couple of month ago, I saw an arab restaurant called “Al Quds” with a big banner depicting the Dome of Rock above its entrance. Are you *sure* arabs don’t want Jerusalem?
@Mike Seth: Are you *sure* Jews don’t want ALL of Jerusalem Arabrein? Sure, there are rogue groups on both sides who want it all & will settle for nothing less. But why do you NEED to see the bad ones only among the Palesitnians w/o being willing to admit your own side harbors elements just as bad? Do the rogue elements control what the majority does? It doesn’t have to, if the moderates & progressives do what’s right. Will you?