41 thoughts on “With Friends Like Dershowitz, Does Obama Need Enemies? – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. “Though Dershowitz is a nominal Democrat, I still find it odd and off-putting that he’d endorse Obama. He’s clearly far out of sync with Obama’s world view.”

    Really?

    Maybe YOU are out of sync with Obama’s reality, as opposed to the marketing campaign.

    After Obama kowtowed to AIPAC a day after his nomination, I am not too hopeful for any meaningful change.

  2. Agreed – me thinks, Richard, that you tend to view Obama (and the Democrats and Zionism) through rose-coloured glasses. Surely Obama is a lot closer (ideologically) to Dersh than to Richard Silverstein!

  3. I disagree with Rich. I think Dershowitz world view is very similar to Obama’s. First of all, they are both liberals hence domestic issues are probably aligned.
    Second, Dershowitz said many times that he is “pro-Palestinian”, meaning he supports a Palestinian state. With alleged Obama’s pro-Palestinian stance in his early years and with his pro-Israel rhetoric during the campaign, he is likely to support the peace process.
    Third, McCain is less likely to be involved in the peace process, and Obama is highly liked world wide hence giving him greater influence on the Arab/Muslim world.

  4. @Michael R. V. W:

    Dershowitz world view is very similar to Obama’s

    That’s bull. Dershowitz is a mean-spirited bully who lies through his teeth when it comes to politics regarding Israel. He can call himself “pro-Palestinian” all he wants. Sharon, Olmert & probably even Netanyahu can ea. say they “support” a Palestinian state. But what kind, how much, where & when? Those are all questions that none of the above could answer satisfactorily for my taste. Clearly Dersh is yr kettle of fish. For me the fish stinks at the head & Dersh is it.

  5. @Mark: Oh I don’t know. I’d say Obama is a lot closer to Richard Silverstein than Bill Clinton was before he was first elected. I toyed w. the idea of not even voting for Clinton then since he was clearly running away fr. the liberal label. It’s true that Obama is tacking to the center & I can’t fault him too much for that. YOu simply can’t win in this country running or governing fr. the left. It’s sad but true.

  6. @ Rich,

    Dershowitz said many times that he supports a Palestinian state in most of the West Bank and all of Gaza with a possible land transfer from Israel proper.

    The problem with you far lefties is that you can not see any middle ground. You are like Philip Weiss, who alienates anybody that supports Jewish statehood.

    You got to stop considering Zionist lefties as right wing settlers. I don’t know what you think of Philip Weiss but if you’ll rather be friends with him than Dershowitz, you are aligning yourself with the wrong people in order to achieve your goal – which I’m assuming is a Palestinian state.

    I’m sorry if I am grouping you and Philip Weiss together, I don’t know your view of him, but he has said some things lately which have alienated other lefties.

  7. Extremists on both sides of the political spectrum hate Israel, because they hate liberal democracies, because they tend to have a special place in their heart for tyrannical regimes, and because they often have strange views with regard to anything Jewish.

    It would be “nice” to know what is the liberal ideology of “Dersh”. Is Israel really a liberal democracy? Well then Iran is also that. Democracy mean equality and religious freedom. A country where one religious group has superior rights above others is no liberal democracy, not even a real democracy. Well it is possible that “Dersh” has a own definition for democracy. An other definition as we others.

    If a politician like Bush speaks such nonsense like “because they hate liberal democracies” it is understandable because politicians use propaganda and create “empty” slogans. But when an academic says things like that it only shows the real quality of that academic. Surely Dershowitz understands that Palestinians hate Israel not because it is a “liberal democracy” but because what the “liberal democracy” is / has been doing to them.

  8. @Michael R. V. W: I support Jewish statehood too, you dullard. So am I still a “far leftie??” Your name calling is insipid. The diff. bet. you & me is that I support a state that provides equal rights for all its citizens which is a diff. state than the supremacist state you support.

    I’m really not interested in what Dersh believes regarding a Palestinian state. Frankly, he’s a liar & a fraud. Second, he’s not willing to see a Palestinian state anytime in the foreseeable future & therefore his claims are bogus. If you support a return to 67 borders then you’ve got to say so & say you’re for it now & for the end of Occupation now. Anything else is empty rhetoric which is all that Dersh is.

    I am a friend of Phillip Weiss and NOT a friend of Alan Dershowitz. But Weiss & I have substantive differences. The diff. bet. Weiss & Dersh is that I can have honorable differences w. Weiss & still remain his ally & friend. Whereas Dersh is a lying scumbag who’s never heard the term honor.

    The only supposed progressive Phil Weiss has alienated is Ralph Seliger who is not a genuine progressive in my book. I largely detest Seliger’s views. Who else has he alienated?

  9. @ Simo Hurtta

    Iran has a Supreme Leader, a hereditary position – a powerful position. Elected officials have to be approved by the mullahs, Shiite clerics, before running for office.
    How is Israel like Iran?

    Nobody says that Israel is a perfect democracy.

    “Democracy mean equality and religious freedom.”
    How is the religious freedom of Israeli gentiles inhibited? There is inequality, but instead of boycotting Israeli elections, Israeli Arabs should vote and run for office to truly represent their numbers, rather than calling the state illegitimate.

    What about gay rights? Israel took persecuted gays from the Palestinian territories.

  10. @Michael R. V. W.: Regardless of what Iran is or isn’t, Israel is NOT a full-blown western style liberal democracy in the sense we know it. It provides truncated rights to a large number of citizens based on their ethincity which constitutes an ethnocracy, not a democracy. THe best I’m willing to say of Israel is that it is a truncated democracy.

    The religious freedom of Israeli Arabs is deeply inhibited. Can they build mosques? No.

    Israeli Arabs DO vote & run for office. But no ruling coalition is willing to include an Arab party in its ranks, which dilutes any power that Arab parties might have. This phenomenon is out & out racism plain & simple & gives Arabs every right to say the state is, if not illegitimate, then certainly not a protector of their rights.

  11. All sophistry aside, the truth about “Israeli Arabs” (sic) is that on almost every scale, in every measure one can think of, they are discriminated against at every level, except for one thing – they have the right to vote for the Knesset.

    “Equal citizens”? My tachat…:-)

  12. Let’s not forget that Iranian Jews have the right to vote (and serve in Parliament) yet I don’t hear very many apologists for the Iranian regime claiming that Iranian Jews have full equality within an “Islamic state”. Having said that, I believe Iranian Jews are “more equal” to their Muslim co-citizens then are Palestinian citizens of the “Jewish state”!

  13. By the same token you can also say that with friends like the Reverend Jackson he doesn’t need enemies. What is also interesting is your suggestion that Obama rule from the center yet castigate him for his views on the I/P situation. It seems you have your own brand of “double standards”.

  14. @Rich,

    “supremacist state you support”
    I never said I support such a thing. You think that anyone that criticizes you “far lefties” is a right winger, just like Weiss.

    “I’m really not interested in …” followed by “he’s a liar & a fraud” shows to me that you aren’t capable of intelligent discourse.

    “Whereas Dersh is a lying scumbag who’s never heard the term honor.” I’m assuming you are talking about him buying from that Jewlery store from the settler builder.

    I’m interested of what your position is. Are you for a boycott of all companies doing business in Israel or just those that build settlements? I don’t mind a boycott of companies that involve settlement building.

    You say that the reason an Arab party is never part of a coalition is because of racism, but can you explain why there is an Arab cabinent member, and Arabs in “Zionist” parties? You misuse the word racist. The reason Arab parties are never part of the coalition is because they are anti Zionist. It’s purely political. Anyway, half of Israelis are from the same stock as the Arabs, including myself.

    @Mark

    “in every measure one can think of, they are discriminated against at every level”
    I agree that the governmental attention and accomidation to Arabs is lacking discrimitory, and perhaps some businesses don’t hire Arabs. But the reason so many Arabs and Hasidic Jews live in poverty is because they aren’t integrated, either by choice, culture, or government inability.

    “Iranian Jews have the right to vote (and serve in Parliament) yet I don’t hear very many apologists for the Iranian regime claiming that Iranian Jews have full equality within an “Islamic state”… I believe Iranian Jews are “more equal” to their Muslim co-citizens then are Palestinian citizens of the “Jewish state”!”
    Oh realllllly….. I didn’t know an Iranian Jew can become the Ayatollah of Iran, the Supreme Leader. I didn’t know that an Iranian Jew can become a high ranking officer in the Iranina army. I didn’t know that an Iranian Jew can become a mullah. I didn’t know that an Iranian Jew that thinks that the Ayatollah and the mullahs are illigetimate can become members of the Iranian parliament. What about Iranian gays? Oh right, there is no such thing.

    Anyway, there are Iranian apologists, they are featured on Al Jazeera English. An Iranian prof. appeared there many times defending the Iranian regime. Nobody is an apologists of the Chinese regime. Are they all goody goody?

  15. Michael R.V.W

    You think that anyone that criticizes you “far lefties” is a right winger, just like Weiss.
    Care to supply a single quote like that from Weiss?

    The reason Arab parties are never part of the coalition is because they are anti Zionist.

    So, what does that mean, exactly? For example, Barak did not want Arab parties in his coalition because he was negotiating a far-reaching agreement with Palestinians (and Syrians) and did not want the Israel public to perceive the agreements as illegitimate because of that.What do you call that?

  16. No, Michael, it is called racisim, not Barak’s, necessarily, but of a large part of Israeli Jewish public which is unwilling to see the Arab citizen of the state as their equals. Barak’s reluctance to include Arab parties in his coalition is politics (here you are correct) reflecting the state of affairs in Israel.

  17. No pete d, its called politics. Syria won’t trust the Israeli right wingers to uphold a peace treaty if they weren’t in the coalition. Egypt made peace with Begin, an Israeli hawk. If the Israeli Jewish public won’t accept the Arabs as their equals then why let them vote? Why let them serve in office?

  18. Michael, please, don’t insult my intelligence. I know Israeli public no worse than you, if not better; yes the majority are OK with Arabs having some representation and some political power, but the majority will also never regard them as equalx when it comes to such questions as security, negotiations or the character of the state. To suggest that Barak was excluding Arabs to allay Syrian or Palestinian fears is sophistry par excellence.
    On the other hand a lot of us Israelis allow Arabs to have nominal equal rights so that we can pat ourselves on the back and be proud of how vibrant Israeli democracy is. And do you believe for a second that Israel could have enjoyed the European and American support that it does if it were denying voting rights to Israeli Arabs? Don’t kid me.
    About Arabs serving in the office, Majdale is the first Arab minister in 60 years of the state (!) and even then there are crazies like Tartman who can say from national tribune that an Arab minister spells the end of the Zionist dream and not be persecuted for hate speech.

  19. Pete D,
    As a fellow Israeli, I’m also saying that Israelis wouldn’t trust certain Arabs on matter of defense because if they call themselves anti-Zionist, its like an American politician calling himself a commie during the cold war.

    True, American Jewry wouldn’t support Israel if it didn’t allow voting rights and office holding rights to the Arabs. As a current member of American Jewry, I attest to that.

    What do you mean by nominal equal rights?

    How old is the US? Assuming Obama will be prez(hopefully), how long will it be for a black man to be prez?

    “crazies like Tartman”
    that’s free speech, there are also arab knesset ministers who were in ralleis in Israel were “Death to the Jews” were chanted.

    “never regard them as equalx when it comes to such questions as security, negotiations or the character of the state.”
    It will take time for the Arabs to assert themselves in the Israeli character. When Israeli Arab leaders say that they’ll negotiate for what the Israeli public wants, they’ll be accepted as negotiators for Israel. When they identify themselves as Israelis, and when Israeli Jews embrace them as such, only the sky will be the limit to them in Israel. But you can’t put fully blame on Israeli Jews for the dis-integration of Arabs.

    It has to do with identity politics and what stance they take rather than racism.

  20. Michael, why bring US and the example of Obama when it is clear that the main reason that it took so long for a black to become a prez (just as you do, I knock on wood here) is exactly racism? Explanations about why the Israeli public (or, at least, last parts of it) is racist are fine, but don’t alter the fact of this racism itself. Now, I am not trying to trivialize it. On the contrary, I’d rather people realized their attitudes deserved this big scary word – “racist” – and reflect on it and maybe be a bit less smug about how open-minded they are for having an Arab car mechanic whom they are “friendly with” or something of the kind.
    You are right that it is a vicious circle and that Arabs disenfranchise themselves because of being disenfranchised and what is the egg and what is the chicken here. Still, putting myself in Arab shoes I can hardly see how I could be a loyal citizen of Israel myself and am often amazed by some stories of Israeli Arabs being proud citizens of the state (such as the recent story of a village painting their mosque blue-and-white for the 60-years celebrations – need to find the link).
    Now, you say “it has to do with identity politics”. That’s exactly euphemism for “racism”, buddy, if Jewish citizens of the state deny Arabs the role in deciding the character of the state and such.

  21. The problem is, using the American analogy, Arabs identify with the loyalists(American revolution), rather than the patriots(Israelis). Can you imagine an American politician saying he’s a loyalist(British supporter).

    On the earlier American analogy, how long did it take for a black man to become part of the American cabinet? How long did it take between them getting the right to vote and actually holding high governmental positions?
    It was much quicker in Israel and under much more complicated situation. American blacks identify as Americans, as patriots. Many Arab Israelis didn’t. For the Israeli left and moderate, it’s purely political. I can’t speak for the right because I don’t identify with them.

  22. Would you identify as an Israeli if you were an Arab? Honestly? “Nefesh yehudi homiya”? Not “nefesh yisraeli” mind you. In fact, it looks like the majority of Israeli Arabs actually do identify as Israelis and this, as I said above, never fails to amaze me.
    As to the “nominal rights” I meant what everybody knows: while Israeli Arabs (and Druze and other minorities) are nominally equal before the law they are in reality severely discriminated especially in terms of resources, land and education.

  23. Only fascist states (or racist ethnocracies like Israel) expect that their citizens be “ideologically pure” before attaining their rights as citizens. So what if every single “Israeli Arab” man, woman and child is “anti-zionist”. In real democracies all citizens receive equal rights before the law. Citizens are obligated to obey the laws and pay taxes. That’s it!

    There’s something inherently racist in expecting Palestinians to dance a hora and sink haTikvah…

  24. “So what if every single “Israeli Arab” man, woman and child is “anti-zionist”.”
    What if a large minority of the US wasn’t “patriotic” and rather “loyalist” in the American revolutionary sense?

    Nobody cares or wants Palestinians to be involved in religious ceremonies. Just don’t wish for the destruction of the country. Very few Israeli Arabs actually ally themselves with Israel’s enemies, but those who call the state illegitimate are … what ever you want to call them.

  25. I call them …”those who call the state illegitimate.| No one is obligated to “call a state” – any state, their own or someone else’s – “legitimate”. In fact the concept is laughable to those without a fascist mindset.

    They (Palestinian citizens of Israel) are obligated to obey laws and pay taxes, just like any other citizen.

    That’s it.

  26. And further – “Israeli Arabs” (and Israeli Jews and every other Israeli citizen) are fully entitled “to wish for the destruction of the country” as long as they break no laws and pay taxes. You see, the right “to wish” is called “freedom of conscience.” This is obvious to anyone without a fascist mentality.

  27. @Bob: First, Jesse Jackson said nothing untoward in his comments first reported by that bastion of liberalism the N.Y. Post. Second, the article was written by the anti Iranian charlatan liar, Amir Taheri, so nothing in it can be considered true.

    If Obama resolved the I-P conflict he WOULD be governing fr. the center. There is a centrist consensus in the U.S. on how to do so. He would only be reflecting it. Whenever he strays fr. this policy by moving to the right, I DO castigate him for it.

  28. @Mark,
    There is a difference between wishing for the destruction of one’s state and wishing it repent. When you appear at rallies say chant “Death to the Jews” … well, you get the picture.

  29. @Michael R. V. W.:

    I don’t mind a boycott of companies that involve settlement building.

    As Thomas the Tank Engine says: “Why, bust my boiler!” I didn’t know you had it in you.

    As for Dershowitz being a liar & fraud, Finkelstein has proven this incontrovertibly. As for having no honor, the fact that he would destroy the academic career of a peer & colleague is despicable. Having no respect for a word that comes out of Dersh’s mouth doesn’t mean I’m incapable of intelligent discourse, it means I’m realistic about knowing who the scum of the earth are.

    Why would you assume I favored a blanket Israel boycott. Not at all. I do favor divestment from companies that benefit the Occupation & building of settlements like Caterpillar.

    can you explain why there is an Arab cabinent member

    There is a junior Cabinet minister who is Arab & a Labor party member. But the heart of Arab political power lies not in Labor but in Arab political parties. They are never considered for inclusion in governing coalitions. Because they aren’t, then Arabs cannot exercise power commensurate w. their numbers in Knesset. The reason the parties are excluded is NOT because they are anti Zionist, but because they are ARAB. It’s not “purely political.” It’s purely racist. And yes, Israeli politics are racist when it comes to Arabs. So it can be both political AND racist.

    Are you saying there is no difference bet. Mizrahi Jews and Muslims? Would that it were so. Perhaps in some alternative universe it IS. But not in this one alas.

    the reason so many Arabs and Hasidic Jews live in poverty is because they aren’t integrated, either by choice, culture, or government inability.

    Those are some very broad criteria. I vote for the latter.

    As for Iranian Jews, Mark said they were MORE EQUAL than Israeli Arabs, not that they were equal to Iranian Muslims. You seem to have missed that distinction.

  30. @Michael R. V. W.:

    If the Israeli Jewish public won’t accept the Arabs as their equals then why let them vote? Why let them serve in office?

    Because to completely remove Arab rights would throw Israel on the ash heap of the international community. It couldn’t even claim it was a democracy as it can claim (largely falsely) now.

  31. @Michael R. V. W.:

    Israelis wouldn’t trust certain Arabs on matter of defense because if they call themselves anti-Zionist, its like an American politician calling himself a commie during the cold war.

    This is preposterous. There was a recent prominent case in which an Israeli Arab woman applied to enroll in an advanced IDF medic training program. She was accepted–until they found out she was an Arab. Then she was rejected. Was she an anti-Zionist? Then why did she apply? Your position is indefensible yet you try vainly to defend it.

    that’s free speech, there are also arab knesset ministers who were in ralleis in Israel were “Death to the Jews” were chanted.

    Now you’re even more preposterous. Lieberman calls for stringing up Arab MKs by the lamppost & THIS is FREE SPEECH??? And you equate this with an Arab MK who participated in a rally in which an anti-Jewish slogan was chanted??? That’s mighty white of you, really.

  32. I’ll agree to disagree with you on why Arab parties aren’t included in the coalition.

    And about the integration part, when a kid has 32 siblings from his dad’s three wives, it’s not because the government was unable to integrate them to society, it’s cultural. And yes, such a person exists in Israel. He’s Bedouin, and the Hasidim have many children too.

  33. @Michael R. V. W.:

    Just don’t wish for the destruction of the country.

    The vast majority of Israeli Arabs do no such thing. And if you don’t know it then you don’t know Arabs & you should know better.

  34. Hey, I am not defending Lieberman’s comment. Perhaps there is a law against this and hence should be prosecuted. I’m not going to pull a Voltaire here. And what is the Left’s reason? Rabin? Was he racists too? Barack?

    I admit, there some who are racist, but calling every Israeli Jew who you disagree with racist, is lame and a bad way to maneuver the political field and the battle of ideas.

  35. @Michael R. V. W.:

    Perhaps there is a law against this and hence should be prosecuted

    Of course there’s a law & of course it would be selectively investigated & prosecuted. Lieberman may go down for being a crook or Mafia associate. But he’ll never go down for incitement to murder or ethnic hatred as he should. On the other hand, every member of Knesset from an Arab party has been investigated by the police for political/ideological crimes, rather than for corruption as Jewish MKs are. You don’t think there’s a little bit of racism in that, do you?

    I only call people racist if they espouse views that clearly are.

    I think it’s hopeless if you cannot recognize that the prevailing obstacle preventing Arab integration into Israeli Jewish society is political & governmental. The claim by you and the Israeli right that Arabs will never be equal because their culture prevents it precisely mirrors similar claims levelled by whites against blacks from time immemorial in this country.

  36. Interesting comments about Israel being a democracy. I would say that would any Jew (or Atheist, Muslim, Christian etc) call a country which has Israeli laws and procedures established by the dominant religious group about land ownership, civil marriage, public money distribution etc a democracy. Surely not.

    Democracy is a much more complicated concept than simply the right to vote. They had elections even in old Communist countries and in former South Africa, which buy the way Michael R. V. W. were not democracies. The role of Israeli Arabs, not to mention the millions under Israel’s military boot, as second grade citizens in Israel is so obvious and widely known that claiming Israel being a “normal” democracy is simply “amusing”. Surely the closest counterparts with Israel as “a democracy” in our near history are Iran and former South Africa. If you Michael R. V. W. do not agree name one single modern democracy which has a so obvious system based on religious/ethic discrimination and separation.

  37. Chanting “Death to the Jews” (or “Death to the Arabs”) might be a criminal act in Israel. If so, when this happens, perpetrators should be charged to the full extent of the law.

    However wishing death upon someone, however offensive, is not like actually killing them, and is no excuse to deny an entire community equal rights.

    Palestinian citizens of Israel, like all citizens in a supposed democracy, are entitled to full democratic rights. Their only obligations are to obey laws and pay taxes. This is obvious to anyone who is not inherently racist.

  38. Hi Richard:

    I disagree that “Israeli Arab” parties are excluded from government for “racial” reasons. Arabs who are members of Zionist parties (like Majadele) are not excluded. And Jews who are members of “non-zionist” parties (like Dov Kheinin) are excluded.

    Seems to me this is an ideological, not “racial” decision though the end result is the same.

  39. Michael R. V. W.:

    When they identify themselves as Israelis, and when Israeli Jews embrace them as such, only the sky will be the limit to them in Israel. But you can’t put fully blame on Israeli Jews for the dis-integration of Arabs.

    The problem is the official designation of Israel as “Jewish state”. I’m sure that, as Bernard Avishai has often noted, many Palestinian citizens of Israel would love to feel as Israelis, just like German, Irish, Italian Americans feel like Americans with that particular background. But the official designation runs squarely counter to the development of an Israeli identity that isn’t hijacked by one ethno-religious group. A “Jewish state” is implicitly a “non-goy state” where a Muslim must by definition be disenfranchised to some extent. How would you, a Jewish American, feel if the US officially declared itself a “Christian country” (magnanimously leaving you the right to vote, but simultaneously ensuring, by demographic policy or other means, that your vote never mattered)?

  40. I just had a long response prepared but then an error came up so I’ll make a shorter response to Rich, Simo, Mark and fiddler without referencing exactly to which statement I’m responding to.

    Rich,
    I’ve said all along that the obstacle was political. And I’m not with the Israeli right. The reason some members of Israeli society are poor, a measure of disintegration, is because they refuse to live in the 21st century. Arab and Hasidim.

    Simo,
    Only whites in S. Africa could have voted, Arabs in Israel do vote for Knesset. Only party members could vote in communist countries, there are numerous parties in Israel that represent many groups.

    I can’t name a country because no country faces the problems and threats Israel faces.

    And “civil marriage” is the last thing one needs to worry about.

    Mark,
    I’m talking about individual MKs. Keep in context please.

    fiddler,
    You are describing the plight of all minority groups in countries outside of the US. Not every country calls its self a country of immigrants. Japan calls itself a country of the Japanese people. If you are not “Japanese”, you are not Japanese.

    I grew up on a secular kibbutz, and all the holidays were celebrated in a secular kibbutznik way. Nobody wants the Arabs to even do that. They don’t need to embrace Israeli Jewish symbols. Just embrace the opportunities that are afforded to them in a modern Israeli society.

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