44 thoughts on “The Face of Jewish Hate – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. Careful with what an IP address supposedly reveals. It’s quite possible it’s his ISP’s address (from a pool), and related whois, traceroute, etc. information points to his ISP’s location, not to him. (That’s the case with me.) Only the ISP could tell you then (but won’t, without a court order) who a particular IP address was assigned to at a certain time.
    In addition he could also be using TOR (http://www.torproject.org), in that case you’d only have the IP address of the last relay (and the person who runs the relay has no way of knowing the content of the traffic, or any node except the two directly connected in the chain).

  2. Yoni’s comment sure was ugly. But the views in Israeli politics is much more diverse than the one of Yoni’s and the one of Richard’s.

    Richard, I’m interested at what you think of Michael Oren.

  3. @Michael Weis:

    How can you get much more “diverse” than Yoni’s comment? SOmeone who advocates killing Israeli “traitors?”

    As for Oren, he’s not my favorite pro-Likud ideologue. Do a Google site search & you should find several comment threads in which I’ve taken issue w. his views. I think I also wrote at least one post attacking a WSJ op ed of his.

  4. @amir:

    Do I have to have one? Livni used to be in Likud. She’s passable. If Sharon had lived I think I could’ve lived with his politics, though again he ONCE was in Likud.

    But my favorite Likud ideologue is Moshe Feiglin because he makes their entire ideology so unpalatable to so many Israelis. I realize that’s a tongue in cheek answer. I’ll just have to get back to you on that.

  5. Richard,

    I didn’t realize I would create such a fuss. What I meant was, and there are many who believe this, including Aryeh Eldad, is that certain acts can be considered treason: Eldad walked around the Knesset waving the law concerning treason around regarding Olmert and his negotiations with Syria, an enemy state, over the Golan. He was basically saying that Olmert should be executed. Nothing has happened to him, though some have called for him to be tried with incitement.
    If you look at the article “Ship of Fools” concerning this voyage at Jpost.com, the first comment calls for the Israeli navy to have destroyed the ships, killing everyone on board presumably. That’s even more extreme than me. I don’t think his comments are going to be reported to the police or FBI. I am not calling for “killing all Palestinians”: in fact I envisage peace with the Arabs, but without a Palestinian state. I endorse the Israel Initiative, which calls for Arabs in the West Bank to be granted Jordanian citizenship and for Israel to annex the WB and Gaza. I believe that the Oslo Accords legimitated Arab terrorist organizations, which has caused thousands of Jews to be killed and maimed. I don’t call and have never called for vigilante killings, but expressed my anger at the situation by saying that certain Israelis may be tried for treason.
    It is unfair for you to make this whole post about me, which makes me out to be some crazy psychopath.

  6. And I’m not ultra-orthodox or a rabbi. I’m actually now a graduate student in Judaic studies, focusing in ancient languages.

  7. @Yoni: You didn’t realize that calling for the execution of Jeff Halper would cause “a fuss?” You should have. And noting that you’ve done nothing worse than anything Eldad has done is not a high recommendation. Yigal Amir and his friends prob. went around before he assassinated Yitzhak Rabin saying he should be executed too. And guess what? He did it. I’m not saying that Eldad will assassinate Olmert. But someone might. Or someone might try. Which means that angry people like you & the YU dean who call for Israelis to be executed are aiding & abetting such incitement.

    As for JPost talkbacks, again that’s not the standard by which civil discourse should be judged. I find the talkbacks in all the Israeli periodicals to be cesspools of hatred. While I sometimes post comments of my own there I make it a point almost never to read any. And because some right wing blowhard calls for the cold-blooded murder of 47 civilians because he sees them as “evil” or “enemies” of Israel, does that make your sentiments any less troubling??

    Look, you don’t agree w. my views. I’m OK w. that. Maybe you despise my views. OK too. But calling for me to be executed or wishing me dead or similar types of hateful fire-breathing are simply asur. We’re human beings. Not animals. We control our emotions or do our best to. When you publicly state that a fellow Jew should be executed you’ve stopped being a human being & become an animal. That’s my opinion anyway. Take it for what it’s worth.

    …expressed my anger at the situation by saying that certain Israelis may be tried for treason.

    I have no problem w. someone being angry, but calling for anyone to be tried for treason goes WAY beyond the pale. If anyone actually took you seriously you’d be one dangerous person.

    Neither Jeff Halper nor Ehud Olmert are your enemy. They are fellow Jews for God’s sake. To make them into enemies of the Jewish people only defines you as someone who is a caricature of an pro-Israel extremist. You may be taken seriously by a few who see things like you. But you will never be taken remotely seriously outside such a small circle.

    I assume you’re not a crazy psychopath. But saying people should be executed is borderline pathological even as extreme political rhetoric. You should take a deep breath & step back from all this & try to see it as outsiders might see it.

  8. Richard,

    Let me make myself clear. I never called for you to be executed or anything like that at all. All I meant to say was that Israeli citizens, who knowingly assist terrorist entities or enemy states, be considered traitors. Perhaps Halper didn’t actually assist Hamas in any way, I read that he refused to meet with Haniyeh. But clearly I am not in a “minority” who think that Israelis who physically assist groups like Hamas are traitors! That obviously doesn’t apply to people like you or anyone else who just sympathize with the Palestinians in general. In fact, the PA routinely executes Palestinians who assist Israel, or who even just sell land to Jews. This is official policy and is actually pursued quite vigorously. The executed are called “collaborators”. They’re shot by a firing squad. I’m not sure if you’ve heard of it.

    So just to clarify once again: I do not think that people who sympathize or demonstrate with or write sympathetic books about the Palestinians are traitors. Only those who, for example, physically assist Hamas.

    Yoni

  9. Calling the FBI or the NYPD? Man, when the Left doesn’t like something, they really start showing their fascist roots. Do you not approve of free speech?

    I really don’t see what the big deal is about the post, anyway. Even the United States Constitution allows execution for treason.

    Oh, and gets your facts straight. R’ Herschel Shachter isn’t the “dean” of YU’s rabbinical school, and The Commentator is a newspaper, not a “discussion forum.”

  10. Yeah the guys’ statements are over the top and idiotic (no not talking about Mr. Silverstein yet in case you were mistakenly confused) calling for Halper to be tried and executed….
    but of course Silverstein goes over the top like usual….
    First, nowhere to the guy call for the destruction or murdering all of the Palestinians in the passage Silverstein cited… and like usual we get some nauseating patronizing and shmaltiness.

    A little online research shows him to live in Washington Heights (I’m sorry to say that my grandparents shared this lovely neighborhood with this hazir).

    So over the top oh my his grandparents shared the same neighborhood such a tragic shandeh lol!…the shamltiness…

    I have half a mind to report his incitement either to the FBI or New York City police department.

    Right because the NYPD or FBI are eagerly awaiting Mr. Silverstein’s sleuthiness to report this… lol!! he called Halper to be tried and executed for treason… and in a foreign country via their laws… of which the FBI and NYPD has no control over…. yes the FBI will eagerly await this report and may even award Silverstein a “Progressive Gold Star”

    These people think their thoughts and ideas are mere rhetorical ranting. The problem is that words can kill and maim even if indirectly. This is the type of hate that led to Yitzchak Rabin’s assassination. I feature it here because I believe we have to look it in the eye unblinkingly in order to disarm it.

    Funny you’ll never see that passage cited in relation to the Muslim incitement leading to any terrorism or murder… why is that???
    Look I agree this guy stating this is idiotic and ranting… however, my guess is that he’s all bark and no bite… just kind of ironic because though he doth protest you will nevvver see this level of “shock” when any of the numerable Muslim incitement is noted in fact you’ll see the opposite anyone who were to point it out would immediately be tar and feathered by Mr. Silverstein as a (let’s make sure I get all of the defeatist labels attached) “right wing Israel firster Likudnick Neocon” blah blah blah…. which basically means don’t listen to them… only listen to me regardless of the points within their argument “I’m a goodie” and “they’re a baddie”…
    You can turn on Al Manar – Al Jazeera any night of the week and likely see Imams stating this and much worse on a regular basis… lol! but that’s NEVVVVER the reason for terrorism or hate etc…. that bolded quote above can nevvvvvver be used to explain any of that within the Muslim community.

  11. @Yoni: Explain this to me: Jeff Halper should be executed, right? YU’s rabbinical school dean thinks Olmert should be hung if he gives up any part of Jerusalem. Those are issues with which I agree. So why wouldn’t you be in favor of executing me as well since I’m in favor of the FGM breaking of the blockade & of territorial compromise including Jerusalem? Or do you only favor executing Israelis?

    All I meant to say was that Israeli citizens, who knowingly assist terrorist entities or enemy states, be considered traitors.

    “All” you meant to say?? Israeli citizens should be considered traitors?? You act as if that’s the most reasonable statement anyone could make.

    clearly I am not in a “minority” who think that Israelis who physically assist groups like Hamas are traitors!

    Clearly my a*&. Most Israelis favor negotiating with Hamas. Did you know that? Numerous polls attest to this. So where is the “clear majority” who favor calling Israelis traitors those who encourage talks with Hamas?

    And if people like Halper who favor negotiating with Hamas & ending the blockade are not “physically assisting Hamas” then you’re not calling them traitors & seeking their execution, right? If so, you should make this clear.

  12. @Nachum: Advocating the killing of another human being has nothing to do with free speech. Such speech is illegal period. Opposing such speech is not “fascist.”

    How often has the U.S. even executed anyone for treason? How often has Israel? Therefore advocating someone’s execution is an awful thing to do.

    Why don’t you get your facts write & spell his name right? It’s Hershel Schachter, not Herschel Shachter. He’s the Rosh Yeshiva, not the rabbinical school dean. What an egregious mistake! Besides you’re diverting attention fr. the horrendous statement Schachter made for which he should have been disciplined, but wasn’t. Which means that YU countenances such speech, even tacitly.

    The Commentator in its online format is not a newspaper. The comment threads in which Yoni participates are not in the print version of the Commentator. I interpreted this as a discussion forum. So sue me.

  13. @Benjamin Bratt:

    of which the FBI and NYPD has no control over

    Wrong. Advocating killing anyone, whether they’re U.S. citizens or not (& Halper IS a U.S. citizen) is illegal. And the FBI & police DO have jurisdiction over such statements. Yoni made the statement on U.S. soil therefore the authorities here have jurisdiction.

    BTW, where did you learn Yiddish? “Shmaltiness?” Really.

    Apparently, Bratt was raised under the teaching that 2 wrongs make a right. I on the other hand was raised to consider my own behavior & that of my family & fellow Jews first. I’m not a Muslim. When I read of Muslim behavior I disapprove of I note this here. But I’m a Jew & Jewish hate is far closer to me & deeply disturbing to me.

    If a Muslim hates Jews it doesn’t justify a Jew hating Muslims & certainly doesn’t justify a Jew hating fellow Jews.

    Bratt: Your participation in this thread is done. If you try to publish another comment I won’t publish it.

  14. As for JPost talkbacks, again that’s not the standard by which civil discourse should be judged. I find the talkbacks in all the Israeli periodicals to be cesspools of hatred.

    In Finland no newspaper would dare to let such opinions published on their internet editions as the Israeli papers do. The responsible editor of the newspaper would find himself ion jail or at least would have to pay considerable fines.The Finnish law is rather harsh with racist comments and inflaming hate against other peoples’ religious beliefs. And the law is not only on paper. The police and courts also act in such events.

    I have also noticed an interesting phenomen in those Israeli papers talkbacks. The further from Israel the pro-Israeli extremist lives (at least where they say to live with this country field in the posting form) the more extreme and violent are the opinions. Often the opinions of Jewish Israelis living in Israel are far less extreme and show even sometimes signs of understanding the opposite side.

  15. In the previous comment the following was a quote
    As for JPost talkbacks, again that’s not the standard by which civil discourse should be judged. I find the talkbacks in all the Israeli periodicals to be cesspools of hatred.

  16. “Most Israelis favor negotiating with Hamas. Did you know that?”

    I think you are referring to a Ha’aretz Dialogue poll that found that 63% of Israelis favored negotiations with Hamas. Yet in another poll taken at around the same time, the Steinmetz Center for Peace Research at Tel Aviv University, found that only 25% of Israelis supported negotiating with Hamas.

    So which is it? I assume you feel the Ha’aretz poll is more accurate and that the Steinmetz poll is somehow flawed – could you please outline your reasons for favoring one over the other?

  17. Richard,

    I would like to make a few points and conclude this matter.

    First of all, you seem to be conflating two different things. There is a difference between supporting a certain policy, and being the person who actually implements that policy. Left wing activists, for example, would not say (at least I don’t think) that if Bush and Cheney should be branded war criminals, that therefore those who elected them or support them should also be so considered. Furthermore, being supportive of negotiations with Iran, for example, is different than going to Iran and assisting them in building a nuclear weapon.

    Secondly, Halper isn’t breaking a “blockade” or a “siege” of Gaza: these terms are propaganda masquerading under the guise of human rights. There is nothing wrong with Israel cutting off economic and trade links with a hostile political entity. Israel is under no more of an obligation to provide Gaza with those links than the United States is to keep purchasing oil from the hostile regime of Saudi Arabia.The West isn’t obligated to maintain its dependence on Arab oil because ending that dependence would harm their economies. All the more so with a Hamas-ruled Gaza, a strip of land right alongside Israel itself! Just like we complain about sending billions to the Saudis, which they then invest in ways contrary to our interests, so too does Israeli economic co-operation with Gaza fuel Hamas activities .against Israel. Additionally, as I mentioned in another comment on a different thread, if you believe that Israel is obligated to support Gaza due to its obligations as an occupying force, than Israel is also obligated to provide law and order in the Strip, meaning that Israel is obligated to destroy Hamas and set up a Zionist government.

    Furthermore, you claim that my “incitement” leads to hatred between Jews, and even culminated in the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, and therefore I, or my views, must be confronted as “evil”. But according to your own logic, I could even make a more compelling case against you. As many Israelis now acknowledge, including even Benny Morris in a number of recent articles over the last couple of years, the Intifada launched by Yasser Arafat is a direct result of the Oslo Accords. Indeed, many Palestinian leaders, including Arafat, actually admitted this plan in plain Arabic on numerous occasions (“The Plan of Phases”), but these statements were disregarded by proponents of Oslo who believed that these figures were merely “pandering to their base”. Richard, Arafat lied about the “peace process”, and merely wanted territory and fundswith which to further increase his killings of Jews, and with which to ultimately destroy the “Zionist entity”. It has nothing to do with “Occupation”. (Indeed, it seems that when Israel’s “occupation” was more thorough and complete, the Palestinians were more docile!) That war was set in action in the Fall of 2000, under the pretext of Sharon’s visit to the Temple Mount. Thousands of Jews were murdered and maimed in Arafat’s terrorist war. So, according to your own logic, your views that Israel should withdraw from the West Bank, combined with the large amount of intelligence that such a withdrawal would lead to a rapid Hamas takeover of those territories and even more Jews being killed, paints you as even worse than me. Indeed, left-wing supporters would thus be complicit in the murder of THOUSANDS of Jews, while right-wing incitement merely led to the killing of one, albeit important Jew.

    Finally, Regarding Halper, even though I believe he is trying to help a fictional “siege”, and support “suffering” Palestinians who actually have one of the highest standards of living in the Arab world, that doesn’t necessarily translate into supporting a rocket squad or a terrorist cell. However, I believe that Jews with views like those of Halper are responsible for many other Jews being killed, and according to the same logic that you use against me, such figures ought to be investigated!

  18. Thus to finally conclude: no, Halper isn’t necessarily guilty of treason, neither are you, and neither am I evil or need to be investigated by the police or FBI! Since if we were to be consistent with your logic, everyone would have to be investigated!

  19. Mr. Silverstein, you said you went to JTS. Perhaps you’d care to remove this little beam from between your own eyes: See my blog post at:

  20. @Yoni:

    Your thinking is typically hazy about the realities of the Middle East

    There is nothing
    wrong with Israel cutting off economic and trade links with a hostile political entity

    The U.S. has a trade embargo with Cuba. But it doesn’t prevent Cuba from having ANY trade or its citizens from entering or leaving the country. THAT is what Israel is inflicting on Gaza. Your narrative that Israel isn’t blockading or laying siege to Gaza is a fictional one based on a totally partisan view of the conflict.

    Israel is obligated to destroy Hamas and set up a Zionist government.

    Well, that would be quite an excellent idea if Israel was prepared to expel all 1.5 million Gazans, take several hundred, if not thousand dead soldiers to impose this bizarre proposition on the enclave & endure the opprobrium of the entire international community. Then, sure, it’s a dandy idea.

    the Intifada launched by Yasser Arafat is a direct result of the Oslo Accords

    I do so despise rightists like you who use Benny Morris as an example of a supposed leftist who embraces the right’s narrative. Benny Morris is not a leftist & hasn’t been for nearly 10 yrs. Using him as an exemplar of anything leaves me & any other progressive cold. The narrative that Oslo produced the first Intifada is a rightist narrative & to claim that “many Israelis” accept this perspective is false. Many RIGHTIST Israelis accept this narrative. But that’s not the same as “many Israelis.”

    I have provided documentary evidence in this blog from Israeli media of an Israeli commander of the southern front who admits the IDF provoked the Intifada by its actions. It takes two to tango. Both sides wanted a provocation & were spoiling for a fight. To claim that Arafat alone created the Intifada is once again a fictional narrative.

    under the pretext of Sharon’s visit to the Temple Mount.

    I see. Having a rightist Israeli general trample on the holiest of Muslim sites wasn’t a REAL provocation, only an imagined one, right?

    such a [West Bank] withdrawal would lead to a rapid Hamas takeover of those territories

    Say what? An Israeli withdrawal from the W. Bank will lead to a HAMAS takeover of the W. Bank? Are you for real?

    paints you as even worse than me.

    You wrote me saying you didn’t believe that I was guilty of treason & should be executed. Yet you’ve just said that I’m “worse” than you. I’ll tell you what, when you catch me calling Israeli rightists “traitors” & demanding they be executed come back & raise this issue again. Till then, you’ve about as much credibility as a someone caught with a pistol in their hand & a dead body in front of them yet who claims they “didn’t do it.”

    I do so enjoy your claim that we progressive Jews are responsible for Palestinian acts of violence and ALL the Israeli deaths that they cause. While claiming that at most Israeli rightists are only responsible for a single assassination of a prime minister. That’s a very reasonable & credible statement which will convince all of my readers of the reasonableness of yr arguments & world view.

    “suffering” Palestinians who actually have one of the highest standards of living in the Arab world,

    Are you claiming that Gazans have “one of the highest standards of living in the Arab world?????” If so, tell me what you’re smokin’. Maybe some of my readers would like to partake because it sure gives off a strong hallucinatory effect.

    Jews with views like those of Halper are responsible for many other Jews being killed, and according to the same logic that you use against me, such figures ought to be investigated!

    Come, come. You’ve lost the courage of yr. convictions. Before you wrote he should be executed & now you’ve reduced that to being investigated?!! I preferred you when you were more naive, yet unbuttoned. At least you said what you felt. Now you’re temporizing.

  21. Some responses:

    Gaza:
    Your comparison with Cuba makes no sense. It is a country that is separate from the US geographically. The Gaza Strip borders Israel. Israel has merely closed its border to a hostile political entity. If the US and Canada were at war, don’t you think their borders would be closed?

    Furthermore, Gaza shares a border with Egypt. There is absolutely no reason for Egypt to close its border. The Arab countries could totally alleviate the situation in Gaza through that border, no need for cruises from Cyprus.

    Sharon:
    Sharon visited the holiest site in Judaism, and his visit was approved in advance by the Waqf (a remnant of Jordanian occupation). Furthermore, numerous Palestinan leaders admitted that the Intifada was decided on by Arafat after Camp David, and that Sharon’s visit was merely seized as a pretext.
    Now the second iteration of the Intifada had the advantage of arms, territories, and funds, what Arafat had planned all along. I don’t depend on Morris for this, Palestinian leaders were saying for years (in Arabic) that they need to extract territorial concessions from the Jews under the guise of a “peace process” in order to kill more Jews.

    Standards of Living:
    The standards of living in the WB and Gaza shot up dramatically when Israel captured those territories from Jordan and Egypt. Infant mortality dropped, life expectancy soared, literacy soared, the economy soared. Before the Intifada, the territories were the 4th fastest growing economy in the world. All Palestinian universities were founded under Israeli “occupation”. The Arabs of the WB and Gaza enjoyed a substantially higher standard of living than all surrounding Arab countries with the exception of Lebanon. In fact, when Hamas blew up the Egyptian border wall, Palestinians were shocked at how much poorer the Egyptian side of Rafah was! The reason you can’t accept this is
    because it forces you to admit that Arab violence does not have its roots in “desparation” and “hopelessness”, the narrative expounded by the Arabs themselves, often with great eloquence such as the propaganda of Hanan Ashrawi and Edward Said. If forces you to understand Palestinian violence against Israel and Jews for what it is: calculated attacks of an OFFENSIVE nature, flowing from forces internal to the Arab and Muslim worlds, such as imperialism, colonialism, and racism (that’s right, those concepts aren’t monopolized by the West I’m afraid).

  22. One more thing:
    Your comment regarding an Israeli invasion of Gaza is also incoherent: if you want Israel to end its “blockade” of Gaza as befits a “foreign colonial occupier”, then Israel is obligated by those same obligations, under international law, of providing law and order, meaning being responsible for its government. You don’t really believe that Israel should be providing fuel for Haniyeh’s vehicles, do you? Do you really believe that Israel should be powering a hostile, enemy political entity dedicated to its destruction? The Gaza Strip is governed by the Palestine branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, also known as “Hamas”, a group founded in the 1920’s in Egypt dedicated to the revival of the Caliphate. According to this group, Israel must be annihilated because it is an obstacle to resurrection of said Caliphate, and draws its constitution from the Quran, fundamentalist tracts, and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Khaled Meshaal has even said that he doesn’t believe in “Palestine”, that “Palestine” is a fabrication, and that he believes only in the Caliphate. You want Israel to support and power a genocidal anti-semitic entity on its own borders?

  23. @mia:

    It depends on the question asked. You’d have to present to me the precise question asked of the respondents in ea. case before I could speak intelligently about the divergence.

    I’ve never seen the poll result you mention fr. the Steinmetz Ctr. I’m not saying the result isn’t genuine, but I always like seeing how a result is characterized by the pollsters rather than reading about it 2nd hand fr. a commenter. Send me a link & I’ll take a look at it & give you my impression.

  24. @Nachum Lamm: Yes, I did attend JTS–1975 grad of the Joint Program.

    Oh, I’d say that you folks fr. YU (since you seem to be a member of the exalted Lamm family dynasty) have a few beams between yr eyes that you might want to worry about before deriding the ones that might be in mine.

    It does seem downright churlish for you to inform me you’ve attacked me & then not provide the URL or name of yr blog!

  25. It didn’t post. Ah well. Why not assume the logical- technical problems- before accusing me of being a churl?

    Let’s try again:

    And no, I’m not really part of the Lamm family. I have no idea where you get the “dynasty” part from.

  26. Ha ha! No. Tell you what. Google “Playbill” and “I’m going to kill the president”. Then Google the phone number in the article.

    Threating the life of the President, by the way, is a Federal crime. Suggesting that a person should be duly tried (in another country) and, if found guilty, executed, is not, except perhaps in your leftist fantasyland.

  27. @Yoni: My comment about Cuba makes perfect sense. It is only 70 miles away from the U.S. & considered as important to us as any neighbor. The U.S. has been as obsessed about the Castro regime as Israel has been about Hamas–& for precisely the same reasons (though it is true that Castro doesn’t send suicide bombers against us).

    Israel has merely closed its border to a hostile political entity.

    Ridiculous. Israel has blockaded every pt of entry & exit fr. Gaza. Israel has no sea border with Gaza. So why has it closed access to the sea? Israel has no reason to prevent Gaza from building an airport & harbor, yet it has. Doing such things is not “closing its borders.” It is an active siege.

    Sharon visited the holiest site in Judaism

    No, the KOTEL is the holiest site in Judaism, not the Temple mount. The Temple Mount is the site of two of the holiest mosques in all Islam. There are no Jewish sacred sites on the Temple Mount.

    his visit was approved in advance by the Waqf

    I can smell bullcrap a mile a way. If this is so prove it. If it happened as you say it did then every member of the Waqf would’ve been fired within 24 hrs. & they weren’t as far as I know.

    numerous Palestinan leaders admitted that the Intifada was decided on by Arafat after Camp David

    There is a diff. bet. a claim & the truth. What you CLAIM isn’t true merely because you say it. If you make a claim provide proof or you won’t be believed. That’s a rule of this site.

    And I’m telling you that the IDF southern commander admitted that the IDF senior command deliberately provoked Palestinian violence in the run up to the Intifada. I wrote a blog post about it which you can read here. I’d like you to try to prove that what he wrote isn’t true. He’s a general & was there. What’s yr bona fides?

    The standards of living in the WB and Gaza shot up dramatically when Israel captured those territories from Jordan and Egypt

    No, now you’re changing the terms of the debate. You claimed that Gaza currently enjoys the highest standard of living in the ARab world. Now defend that statement or qualify it or correct it.

    Besides you’re talking about numbers from 1967, 40 yrs ago. They’re way out of date & need to be updated to have any crediblity.

    the territories were the 4th fastest growing economy in the world

    Do provide a source for this & if it’s CAMERA & MEMRI read my comment rules & don’t quote bogus sources like these. If you provide no source then you’re just slinging bull crap. Besides once again, if you start with an economy that practically doesn’t exist & pump a little money into it–it still may be pathetically small AND the 4th fastest growing economy in the world. You see, anyone can play w. statistics as Israel-Firsters like you like to do.

    Palestinians were shocked at how much poorer the Egyptian side of Rafah was

    I can’t believe you’re trying to argue that Gaza is actually well-off when it receives 43% of the necessary food aid to feed its population according to international humanitarian agencies. Don’t you see how pathetic yr reasoning looks to anyone other than those who share yr warped views??

    You argue that Arabs are racist toward Jews but neglect to acknowledge the racism inherent in yr very own Orthodox & extremist settler community. YOu don’t acknowledge the outrageous violence perpetrated by such people against innocent Palestinian civilians murdered & maimed for no other reason than that they are Palestinian.

    A warning: you clearly enjoy hearing yourself talk. But there is a limit to that. I am asking you politely not to post any more comments in this thread. You’ve had more than yr say & you basically repeat yr own arguments anyway. If you ignore this request, your comments will be moderated & I will not publish any more in this thread (though you may choose to participate in other threads).

    I do not want a single commenter to hijack a comment thread which is why I sometimes have to resort to this decision.

  28. @Yoni:

    if you want Israel to end its “blockade” of Gaza as befits a “foreign colonial occupier”, then Israel is obligated by those same obligations, under international law, of providing law and order

    You’ve got it mixed it. As an occupying power Israel is responsible not just w. providing law & order but w. providing all the necessities of life in the occupied territory (which it is not doing). Were Israel not to be blockading Gaza, then it would not only have no obligation to provide law & order, it would not have any right to do so.

    The Gaza Strip is governed by the Palestine branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, also known as “Hamas”, a group founded in the 1920’s in Egypt dedicated to the revival of the Caliphate.

    Hamas was not created in the 1920s. Actually, it was created with the special aid of the Israelis in the 1970s, who were looking for a competing power to check Arafat & Fatah. Israel really has only itself to blame for Hamas in so many ways.

    Khaled Meshaal has even said that he doesn’t believe in “Palestine”, that “Palestine” is a fabrication, and that he believes only in the Caliphate.

    Again yr rhetoric is totally powered by right-wing propaganda. I simply will not allow you to use this blog to regurgiate the hate fr. sites like CAMERA & MEMRI. So here’s a new rule for you. Any claim you make regarding the Palestinians will have to have a link or some credible source buttressing it. The sources will have to adhere to those mentioned in my comment rules. If you don’t respect this, then I will consider you little more than an instrument for CAMERA & restrict yr privileges accordingly.

  29. @Nachum Lamm: Threatening ANYONE’s life, not just the president’s, is a crime.

    Suggesting that a person should be duly tried (in another country) and, if found guilty, executed, is not,

    Would you like me to call the FBI & ask them if they’re interested in Yoni’s comment & visiting him? We could let them be the judge since neither you nor I are experts in this field.

    Your URL still didn’t post. Try inserting it into the URL field above the comment box.

  30. Richard,
    Consider these my final comments:
    What you said about the Kotel is not correct. The Kotel is holy BECAUSE it is near the Temple Mount, which is called the Temple Mount because the two Jewish Temples were built on it! It is the holiest site in Judaism. Some Jewish authorities prohibit walking on the Temple Mount because of itsextreme holiness, and thus the practice of praying at the Western Wall developed, since it is one of the closest areas to the Temple Mount. In fact the Arab name, al-Quds, which derives from the pre-Islamic period, actually preserves a reference to the Temples.

    Regarding Hamas: I wasn’t clear. What I meant to say was that the Muslim Brotherhood was founded in the 1920’s, and the Palestinan branch of that Egyptian movement was founded in the 1980’s. Every Arab country has a Hamas in it, dedicated to the overthrow of the secular Arab regimes.
    Hamas is simply the Palestinian branch of this movement, which seeks to make a pan-Islamic caliphate.
    -Yoni

  31. Richard, “outrageous violence perpetrated by the Orthodox & extremist settler community against innocent Palestinian civilians murdered & maimed for no other reason than that they are Palestinian” ?? huh??

    Sorry but this and most of your comments make no sense. How about the community of self-hating Jews?

  32. Yoni’s right about the Temple Mount. The Kotel is revered by Jews only because it is the closest one can get to the Temple Mount. Otherwise, the Kotel is just a retaining wall with no other real spiritual value in and of itself.

    As for the survey in question, it was run by the Steinmetz Center for Peace Research and you can see the details here. I assume you are intimately familiar with the surveys that suggest strong Israeli support for direct talks with Hamas.

  33. @Gloria: They make “no sense” to you because you don’t follow or acknowledge the violence perpetrated by violent extremist settlers & other Orthodox Jews against Palestinians & sometimes even against their fellow Jews. I can’t believe you don’t know about all who have been killed or maimed in such attacks.

    Would you pls. list for me the actual physical “violence” that has been perpetrated by alleged “self-hating Jews” on anyone?

  34. @mia: I would say that the Temple Mount is revered by Orthodox Jews (who even Yoni confirms mostly refuse to set foot on it for their own religious reasons). I don’t know many Conservative or Reform Jews who would be willing to die on behalf of allowing Ariel Sharon to traipse through this sacred Muslim site which actually contains two functioning mosques.

    Judaism as a rule doesn’t worship specific places, buildings, etc. like some religions do. Our religion & values are within us & not as much infused into physical objects.

    Interesting that Sharon had never chosen to visit the Mount before & never did afterward. You’d think if it was that central to Sharon’s Jewish identity that he would’ve done it more often.

  35. Richard why do you think it’s called the Temple Mount?! It’s called that because the Jewish TEMPLES were built on it. It has nothing to do with being orthodox, all jews agree with this. The Dome of the Rock was built where the Second Temple stood. The Temple Mount is the holiest site in Judaism, and though we don’t worship physical objects, physical objects certainly can have holiness and sanctity. Ever heard of a Torah scroll, or tefillin (phylacteries), or the Ark of the Covenant, which was the whole reason for building the Temple (and the Tabernacle before it)??!! The Ark, built in the days of Moses to house the Ten Commandments (and other objects) as well as the area where God would communicate with Moses, was located somewhere on the rock inside the mosque that now sits on the Temple Mount.

  36. Regarding the article by Zvika Fogel, I read it through. He certainly provides a different interpretation about the run-up to the Intifada, but nowhere does he say that Israel “provoked” it, but that the preparations for conflict eleminated what he considered to have been alternative options in dealing with a real rise in Palestinian violence planned, in advance, by Palestinian leaders. However he seems to have a very naive understanding of the aims of Palestinian nationalism and to possess total ignorance of the intentions of Hamas. In light of everything else I’ve read concerning this subject, as well as the fact that other IDF personnel disagree with him (as is mentioned in the article), Fogel is simply wrong.

  37. @Yoni: All Jews agree the Temples existed on that spot. But not all Jews agree that the spot deserves the kind of obsessive fetichizing that extremist nationalists use in charactaerizing it. Few Jews want to build a Third Temple there. Very few Jews would agree that Ariel Sharon had an absolute need to traipse through the Temple Mount to foment the Intifada. Few Jews would’ve said that’s a wise or advisable thing to do.

    You can talk till you’re blue in the face about the history of the Temple Mount. I appreciate it’s historic & spiritual significance. But in a contemporary political context, it’s simply not going to move me or most Jews as it would you, your fellow Orthodox and nationalist extremists. Jews want peace much more than they want Ariel Sharon stalking the Temple Mount.

    He certainly provides a different interpretation about the run-up to the Intifada

    Not just a “different interpretation.” One that entirely contradicts yr fictional narrative which isn’t based on anything other than Israeli rightist propaganada.

    nowhere does he say that Israel “provoked” it,

    Not true. Read it again. He says explicitly that actions by the IDF were deliberate & knowing provocations which the army had to know would bring a violent response by the Palestinians. He says the IDF was willing to take that risk because of its own frustrations.

    he seems to have a very naive understanding of the aims of Palestinian nationalism

    I do so love it when observers like Yoni call experienced Israeli generals “naïve” and “ignorant.” Uh, Yoni, wake up fella. It’s the height of chutzpah. Or do you really wish to place your credentials next to Fogel’s & ask us to judge who has greater credibility?

    Fogel is simply wrong

    Now, you’ve gone too far. What rank did you leave the IDF with? What degrees do you have in the study of Arab nationalism or the I-P conflict? Fogel is damn sight more credible than you any day of the week. You really embarrass yrself & yr cause.

  38. Richard,

    The point is you have not admitted once to being wrong (or perhaps just misguided) so many times, such as Judaism’s holiest site being the Temple Mount and not the Kotel. Such a major error calls into question all of your “facts” and underscores that you are not qualified to host a site like this.

    By the way, although many Israeli generals have proven to be geniuses on the battlefield, that does not make them capable of governing, as history has repeatedly shown. I for one would rather entrust this responsibility to an obviously brilliant, well-informed and grounded person such as Yoni, who according to my calculations in half your age.

  39. @Gloria:

    although many Israeli generals have proven to be geniuses on the battlefield, that does not make them capable of governing, as history has repeatedly shown

    That’s not what Yoni was talking about. He was claiming that he knew better than Zvika Fogel about the nature of Palestinian nationalism. I wasn’t nominating Fogel to run the country. But he has a damn sight more experience dealing with Palestinians than good ol’ Yoni does.

    I for one would rather entrust this responsibility to an obviously brilliant, well-informed and grounded person such as Yoni, who according to my calculations in half your age.

    You want Yoni to run Israel???!!! Surely you jest? He’s not even a citizen as far as I know. And what does him being half my age have to do w. the price of pita? Isn’t that a bit of ageism creeping into such an otherwise erudite analysis on yr part?

  40. OK, I give up. There is no way you will ever see the light, so this is my last posting here. I have better things to do with my time than waste it. To respond to every one of your inaccuracies and mistaken assumptions would be way too time-consuming so here’s just a select few.

    You sure are talented at looking for loopholes and attacking them instead of ceding that a person has a good point. The downside is that you suck at reading between the lines. That’s one reason this thread is so long and convoluted.

    “As an occupying power Israel is responsible not just w. providing law & order but w. providing all the necessities of life in the occupied territory.”

    Uh, Gaza is not “occupied”. We pulled out three years ago, thousands of Israelis lost their homes and we’ve been bombarded with missiles ever since. Where have you been?

    “I wasn’t nominating Fogel to run the country. But he has a damn sight more experience dealing with Palestinians than good ol’ Yoni does.”

    I’ll spell it out this time. Experience is no panacea. Fogel does not necessarily trump good ol’ Yoni when it comes to understanding the Palestinians. Again, terrible political decisions have been made by retired generals (read: like Fogel). That’s because they just don’t get the enemy’s agenda. There was nothing wrong with Yoni calling Fogel’s understanding of Palestinian nationalism “naïve”. It’s a charitable description.

    “You want Yoni to run Israel???!!! Surely you jest?”

    I meant, and you know it, we need someone LIKE Yoni, i.e. with a head on their shoulders, first and foremost, at the helm of this country. Again, experience is secondary.

    “He’s not even a citizen as far as I know.”

    Wrong again. Yoni is an Israeli citizen and has done his stint with the IDF, contrary to an earlier comment of yours which he didn’t bother to refute. You’ve made “assumptions” like these too many times to count.

    “And what does him being half my age have to do w. the price of pita? ”

    A lot. You’ve been on this planet twice as long so you should know better. If that makes me guilty of ageism, so be it.

    “I do not want a single commenter to hijack a comment thread.”

    Hijack? That’s very funny. Have you forgotten that you DEDICATED this post to Yoni, and have consistently and viciously attacked his character?? I see he has wisely stepped out and given up trying to deal with you as if you were a rational person. I’m doing the same.

    One last comment. People like you should be tried and executed for ignorance. We’re on different continents, so I wouldn’t bother with the FBI or NYPD. You could try Interpol though.

  41. Gloria, when you write to Richard “People like you should be tried and executed for ignorance”, I assume you’re making some lame grasp at humor, but it is rather interesting how racist right-wing nutjobs like you and Yoni just seem to have ‘execution’ on the brain. I think what maybe separates Richard and other liberal progressives from apologists of the Israeli occupation like you and Yoni is that we see the Palestinians as human beings deserving of basic human dignity (we share this little historical/cultural legacy in the Western World called the ‘Enlightenment’). Cutting off supplies and food to a large civilian population is incredibly cruel and malicious, and it also is a war crime. If you’re going to try and defend or rationalize this brutal behavior (the seige of Gaza), then you have abnegated any belief in universal human rights. In this respect, your mode of thinking is much closer in structure to fascism than it is to any grounded, coherent understanding of liberal democracy.

  42. @Gloria:

    People like you should be tried and executed for ignorance

    You are a perfect foil for me. Any reasonable person who reads my blog will, if they don’t already, understand how absolutely certifiably nuts the Israel-Firsters are. Not to mention that you express your hibat Zion by calling for the death of yr fellow Jews. You should be ashamed–but of course you have none. You’re a shande fahr di Yiden.

    And if we were executing people for ignorance you’d be the first to go. But I don’t believe in executing anyone for anything, so you’d be spared in my world. Only rightists like you want yr opponents executed. That’s what bugged me so much about Yoni’s lunatic comment.

    As for Occupation, you’re completely at sea on how this is defined under international law, which is what governs Israel’s behavior. Occupation is not just having troops control territory by being physically in it. Occupation also can be when a foreign force controls territory merely by preventing access into or outside the territory. Since Israel controls all access pts. it is essentially controlling Gazan territory, hence under international law it occupies Gaza. Period.

    I repeat Zvika Fogel is a decorated IDF officer. He was promoted to his rank by other IDF officers. Neither you nor Yoni approach his level of rank, experience or knowledge. Thank God, no one in Israel has chosen either of you to be a general. You’d f(&k things up even worse than they are now.

    We need Yoni to stay as far away fr. politics as possible & you too. The two of you will only bring increased bloodshed for both sides.

    “Experience is secondary.”

    Indeed, that’s what the Republicans are trying to peddle regaridng Sarah Palin. The argument won’t fly.

    Regarding Yoni, he seems to have logorrhea & has a keyboard obsession so after asking him politely to stop commenting in this thread, I had to restrict his privileges to comment here. So he hasn’t been here but not fr. lack of trying. This post was about his hatred of Arabs. But the comment thread has long since stopped being about his hatred. Yet he kept commenting endlessly so I had to invoke one of my comment rules dealing with rightists who suffer from logorrhea.

    You’ve been on this planet twice as long so you should know better

    Oh, but I do. I do. Far better than the likes of you & Yoni.

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