61 thoughts on “9th Circuit Hears Arguments on Corrie Family Suit Against Caterpillar – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. Too bad the Corries can’t sue the IDF or the Israeli government. Caterpillar seems a poor second best.

    Zhu Bajie

  2. Wow, the author and readership have gone nuts.

    It makes no sense to sue Caterpillar.
    Rachel was (sadly) responsible for her own death, for knowingly getting in the way of a bulldozer.
    She was a misguided young liberal, who due to this unfortunate accident, didn’t get a chance to outgrow it !!

    The IDF, the bulldozer driver, and Caterpillar all acted correctly.
    The only ones who didn’t act correctly is Rachel and the Palestinian terrorists who necessitated the demolitions.

    The comparison with death chambers and such is stupid, as their only purpose is to break international law. A bulldozer, on the other hand, has a legitimate use and cannot be made safe for people who willingly commit suicide by getting in its way. Furthermore, this bulldozer was being used properly in a demolition — that’s what bulldozers do.

    fyi: The IDF demolishes homes for two reasons:
    1. To punish terrorists
    2. To clear away buildings used by terrorists

    There’s a real world out there, folks.
    – Lint

  3. What I continually find amazing about commenters here like Lint is that they neglect to follow the links I provide which would completely refute and undermine the very basis of their comments. The Human Rights Watch link in particular proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the IDF does NOT only demolish homes for the reasons Lint lists. In fact, it rarely does so. In addition, IDF demolitions almost always violate international law which provides for destruction of private property only when it causes danger to troops during actual combat operations.

    A bulldozer, on the other hand, has a legitimate use and cannot be made safe for people who willingly commit suicide

    One of the stupider comments made here in some time. You mean to tell me that if the IDF truly cared about whether or not it killed protesters like Corrie it couldn’t do more to prevent such accidents? Of course it could. To say she commited suicide is an ugly, detestable statement. She was protesting the Israeli Occupation and had no more need to die than I would at a demonstration against the Israeli Occupation here in the States.

    There’s a real world out there

    And you think yours is the “real world?” Gimme a break. Yours is the world as it is presented to you by the Israeli government, the IDF, & Israel’s security services–with perhaps a bit of Little Green Footballs or Frontpagemagazine thrown in.

  4. At least you didn’t defend the Caterpillar lawsuit. 😉
    It’s a total abuse of the courts, and an attempt at extortion by their lawyers.
    This case has become a rallying point for pro-terrorist groups; the Corries’ own website includes links to several intifada groups.

    I don’t mean to perpetuate the discussion, but yes, I do think that the IDF cares about Rachel’s life.
    The difference between you protesting in the US and what she was doing is clear — she was interfering with a soldier who was under orders.

    I’m fairly certain that this is how it happened:
    She repeatedly got in the bulldozer’s way.
    The soldier tried yelling at her and throwing sand at her to get her out of the way.
    He grew increasingly desperate as he was under orders, and could not reasonably report back that an unarmed girl had prevented him from completing the demolition.
    He tried scaring her away by moving forward with the bulldozer … both sides moved back and forth as they feinted against each other … in a moment of confusion, she was crushed.

    It’s wrong to call this a murder, or to fault the IDF.
    Israel as a policy never purposely harms civilians, and there have been very few incidents of rogue soldiers violating that; this wasn’t one of them.

    – Lint

  5. I have always thought it odd that Rachel Corrie is referred to as a “peace activist”. I would have thought that a “peace activist” is someone who encourages diaglogue among enemies. There is an infamous photo of her burning an American flag with a crazed look in her eyes surrounded by Arab children. How doing that is “increasing understanding between nations” is beyond me.

  6. It is good to know that this Rachel Corrie murder thing has been cleared up once and for all. I didn’t realize that Rachel’s murderer was under orders. That clearly makes it an accident. I shall never bring up the matter again. I am not going to mention the British peace worker that was shot in the head (and eventually died) one month later while trying rescue Palestinian children caught in a crossfire between the IDF and Palestinian freedom fighters either. There the IDF murderer apparently wasn’t under orders because I think he may have been prosecuted. I am glad your commentator cleared this up for me Richard.

  7. Of course LIberal White Boy & I defend the Caterpillar lawsuit & it certainly is a perfectly reasonable exercise of American justice. Do you think as distinguished an attorney as Erwin Chemerinsky would’ve accepted this case if it wasn’t. This is a man who has often argued before the Supreme Court after all.

    You say the IDF cares about Rachel Corrie’s life. If it cared it wouldn’t have killed her.

    And your fantasy about what happened leading up to the accident/murder is just that. It belongs in a novel, rather than being seen as a statement of fact. Besides, the picture above taken moments before her death clearly shows the driver securely ensconced within his bulldozer cab & making no attempt whatsoever to warn her of her impending death.

    Israel as a policy never purposely harms civilians

    Since your IP address emanates from the Google campus, you clearly have a certain degree of intelligence. But this statement certainly doesn’t display any. Where in the world would you get the idea that Israel isn’t knowingly willing to harm civilians? The instances in which this has happened are myriad: literally hundreds if not thousands of cases, a good number documented here at this blog with credible journalistic sourcing. Before you spout such nonsense why don’t you do a Google search on this site on search terms like “killing Palestinian civilians” or something similar & then tell me you continue to maintain yr previous level of ignorance on the subject.

    I note you claim w. certainly that the Corrie death was not a case of the IDF knowingly harming a civilian. Yet you have presented no proof other than yr own fantasy to attest to yr view. Is that the standard of proof that’s operative in the halls of Google??

  8. It has already been well documented on the web that the above picture was not taken “just moments before her death”. Just look at the different positioning of the headlights. Also Rachel did not die right away, she died in a Gaza hospital. Maybe her parents should sue the ISM.

  9. I have always thought it odd that Rachel Corrie is referred to as a “peace activist”

    It’s what she considered herself & what most of the rest of the world considers her. God forbid, if you died for something you believed in, would you want the rest of the world to deny your association with the very thing you died for???

    I’m not one who’s much for burning flags or other such incendiary behavior & I don’t approve of what she did if she did, as alleged, burn a hand-drawn American flag (& I’d like to see proof that this image is genuine before conceding that she did). But neither of us are 23 yrs old. Plus, if we were living through days of great Jewish oppression who knows what we might do with the flag of the nation we viewed as our oppressor.

  10. It has already been well documented on the web

    “Well-documented” & “the web” are oxymorons like “military justice.” In other words, prove it. Who’s proven the photo isn’t legitimate & how did they do so? The credibility or lack thereof of your sources will tell us whether yr claim is legitimiate or not. And pls. don’t use stock right-wing or Palestinophobic sites as “proof” of anything.

  11. Of course LIberal White Boy & I defend the Caterpillar lawsuit & it certainly is a perfectly reasonable exercise of American justice. Do you think as distinguished an attorney as Erwin Chemerinsky would’ve accepted this case if it wasn’t. This is a man who has often argued before the Supreme Court after all.

    Well since he’s argued before the SC before than that means its a “legit” suit?
    Smith and Wesson has avoided suits for making guns but Caterpillar can be sued for making Bulldozers….? yeah, makes good sense

    It’s simple tort law 101 by the way… but since it supports your point of view and a “lawyer took the case”……… (no lawyer jokes needed) well…. than it’s a good solid case then.

    You say the IDF cares about Rachel Corrie’s life. If it cared it wouldn’t have killed her.

    Another very solid legal argument there…. brilliantly put as well.. Perhaps that would be the distinguished summation before the SC?

    And your fantasy about what happened leading up to the accident/murder is just that. It belongs in a novel, rather than being seen as a statement of fact. Besides, the picture above taken moments before her death clearly shows the driver securely ensconced within his bulldozer cab & making no attempt whatsoever to warn her of her impending death.

    That last statement is further evidence of this gentleeman’s incredibly weak argument… “clearly shows”… really?

    Note, the picture posted all over the world… is from over an hour prior to her death… it was with a different bulldozer and different driver… And there was testimony that she slipped climbing a large mound that was being bulldozed forward…. that part was supported by other witnesses there…. the bulldozer driven by a new driver just on shift then moved the mound forward crushing her and then rode over her under the mound…. the driver had no clue anyone was climbing the mound… nor would anyone want to climb a huge mound a bulldozer is approaching…

    So legally, yes it was a tragedy regardless of what anyone thinks of her and what she was doing… but according to Richard “the driver clearly knew what he was doing and didn’t warn her”… and since she died the Israelis didn’t care about her death….

  12. Since your IP address emanates from the Google campus, you clearly have a certain degree of intelligence. But this statement certainly doesn’t display any.

    What does that mean? He works at Google so he’s smart? Or he works at Google and he’s more than likely very left of center, and surprisingly is so vehemently disagreeing with you?

    Where in the world would you get the idea that Israel isn’t knowingly willing to harm civilians? The instances in which this has happened are myriad: literally hundreds if not thousands of cases,…. then tell me you continue to maintain yr previous level of ignorance on the subject.

    “Thousands”…..? Ignorance?

    And here is Mr. Silverstein’s Summation –

    I note you claim w. certainly that the Corrie death was not a case of the IDF knowingly harming a civilian. Yet you have presented no proof other than yr own fantasy to attest to yr view. Is that the standard of proof that’s operative in the halls of Google??

    Caterpillar is being sued you have to prove their “negligence”.. not the other way around….
    As opposed to Mr. Silverstein’s logic –

    You say the IDF cares about Rachel Corrie’s life. If it cared it wouldn’t have killed her.

  13. Are you really questioning the authenticity of the picture now as well? Rather amazing… it’s not like there already hasn’t been documented cases of the PLO and Hezbollah doctoring pictures or using pictures from 5 years ago? But now you’re questioning the Corrie picture as well? Perhaps the flag burning picture, taken by PA stringers was a photoshop… by a PA double agent? and the bulldozer picture was a photoshop as well?

    You seem to have all the inside tracks on information and what’s legit… if its written by the Jerusalem Post well than it’s most likely a fake picture too… but from EU, AP or Reuters photogs who are often paid PA stringers… well those are usually reliable?

    Are you really that obvious in your bias?

  14. Ah, it looks like we’ve been joined by the professional Corrie basher contingent. So tell me Jimmy Collins, how many disgusting St. Pancake jokes have you told today?? Or perhaps Caterpillar has hired some PR flacks to deflect blame fr. itself by seeking out blogs like mine which don’t take its pt of view regarding this case.

    Smith and Wesson has avoided suits for making guns but Caterpillar can be sued for making Bulldozers

    Are you arguing that it was legitimate for a Congress bought & paid for by the gun industry & the NRA to immunize gunmakers from product liability lawsuits?? I certainly hope not since that position has no moral standing whatsoever. And as for why Caterpillar isn’t immune fr. such lawsuits? Maybe they should start an NRA clone group and donate tens of millions to Congress, then they could be immunized too.

    It’s simple tort law 101 by the way

    What is? Is this an argument? And if so for what?

    That last statement is further evidence of this gentleeman’s incredibly weak argument… “clearly shows”… really?

    Lint said in his comment/fantasy that the driver had exited his cab to remonstrate with Corrie to get out of his way. The image clearly shows that the driver is NOT outside his cab doing anything of the sort that Lint claimed. Hence his claim is bogus & fantasy.

    Note, the picture posted all over the world… is from over an hour prior to her death… it was with a different bulldozer and different driver

    I’m dying to know what reputable website all this information comes from. I’d ask my readers to note that so far not a single commenter disparaging Corrie or my arguments has provided a single documentary source at all; let alone a credible one.

    there was testimony that she slipped climbing a large mound that was being bulldozed forward…. that part was supported by other witnesses there

    “Testimony?” From whom? Evidence please.

  15. Caterpillar is being sued you have to prove their “negligence”.. not the other way around

    I was arguing with Lint regarding his claim that the IDF doesn’t knowingly kill civilians. That particular part of my argument with him had nothing to do with Caterpillar’s negligence. It was solely regarding IDF callous disregard for Palestinian civilian life.

    As for proving Caterpillar’s negligence, that shouldn’t be very hard. They sold Israel armored bulldozers to be used to destroy the homes of Palestinian civilians. Those products have killed both residents of the homes which were destroyed by said bulldozers AND civilians protesting the destruction. I’d say a product with a history of killing/murdering (depending on yr perspective) people would be legitimate grounds for a liability lawsuit though based on what the article says I’m not even sure the plaintiffs are using this strategy since they mention the product’s violation of human rights.

    Are you really questioning the authenticity of the picture now as well? Rather amazing

    I asked for someone to provide the original source of this image to verify its authenticity. A perfectly reasonable request in this day & age of precisely the type of photoshopping you so clearly decry from the “Islamofascists” side. Clearly, you can’t do that but still wish to land some propaganda pts in yr war against my views.

    Since you’ve posted 3 comments within 15 minutes today pls limit yourself to a single comment in any one thread in a single day.

  16. What continually amazes me about apologists for Rachel Corrie’s murder is how brazenly (and seemingly un-self-consciously) they betray their true symphathies. These apologists for Israeli war crimes clearly don’t care about Americans or the American people. I don’t think they have any idea how their callousness comes across to average Americans who don’t share their peculiar prejudices. If these Likudniks were smarter and more PR-savvy, they would just wring their hands and sorrowfully state that her killing, the slaughter of this young American woman, was a terrible tragedy, and stop at that. Their seeming pathological necessity to defame her really hurts their cause, I’m afraid, in the eyes of objective, neutral observers. So I say, keep it coming, Israel Firsters, keep showing your true colors to all the rest of us Americans. If you had any idea how you come across… woww!!

  17. Who’s proven the photo isn’t legitimate & how did they do so?

    I didn’t say the photo was not legitimate. I said the caption was. The picture was not likely taken immediately before the accident, and some have suggested that the pictures are two different models, according to the size of the windows. I don’t know about that but both the CNN and the NYTimes made corrections to there captions (or are they too Palestinophobic for you). Is electronicintifada too Palestiniphobic for you? They give at least 45 minutes between the 2 pictures (relying on an ISM handout) Sources:http://electronicintifada.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/7/1248
    The CNN clarification (which I admit, isn’t clear enough.) – http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/index.html
    The NYTimes quote: requires registration: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/26/pageoneplus/corrections.html?ex=1184817600&en=d489b13c6e6dba6a&ei=5070

    A picture caption on March 17 with an article about an American protester who was crushed by an Israeli Army bulldozer in Gaza referred incorrectly to the bulldozer shown. It was one that the protester, Rachel Corrie, had earlier tried to stop from destroying a Palestinian home. It was not the one that killed her.

    I went back to March 17 but the NYT doesn’t save photos on their web site. So I can’t be absolutely certain that it is the exact same picture. But it is the same tactic. Immediately after the incident the ISM disseminated pictures “proving” that the soldier saw Rachel and the MSM swallowed it up only to have to make corrections later. That’s because the MSM is all to happy to print anything that makes israel or the IDF look bad (man bites dog). And now, 4 years after even the ISM has stopped claiming the pcture was taken moments before (as is evident in the ISM handout referred to at electronicintifada) your keeping the libel alive.

  18. The picture of Rachel Corrie burning a picture of the US flag is on Wikipedia:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

    Look at the image of feigned anguish in her face.
    This is an activist poser. There were many like her in my campus, and they grew out of it.
    Sure, she didn’t deserve to die for what she did. But she put herself at extreme risk, and an accident occurred.
    ‘Murder’ is a fairly specific word, implying intent to kill, etc. The IDF isn’t responsible for her death.

    Warren, I agree that her death was a terrible tragedy. But once charges of murder or ‘war crimes’ start getting thrown around, it’s important to illustrate Rachel’s responsibility and carelessness. We shouldn’t water down or abuse extreme notions like those. It’s patently dishonest and illustrates *your* bias against Israel and/or the US.

  19. Nice try, Lint, but that’s just not good enough. Pretty much all of the direct eyewitnesses to the event state they saw that the bulldozer driver had seen where Rachel Corrie was and he nevertheless kept moving forward. I call that murder; it’s certainly *at least* manslaughter. Trying to claim that I am biased against the US is truly pathetic. You’re just desperately attempting to mitigate my charge that you don’t care about Americans. I wearily understand why you feel compelled to do so, but you’re spitting into the wind. Rachel Corrie was an idealistic young American woman who was actively working for peace and justice. You may disagree with her politics and perspective, but her heart was in the right place. She was killed by an IDF soldier. So, let’s lay out a basic opposition here: young, idealistic American peace activist killed by an Israeli soldier. Whose side are you on, plain and simple? If you can’t see that your efforts to demonize this young American will backfire in the eyes of most Americans, then I’m sorry, but you’re delusional. Again, I don’t think the demonize-Rachel Corrie-crowd has any idea how they come across to average Americans who don’t share their particular alliances and prejudices.

  20. Richard, from my experience in the jewish american community, i can tell you that you are an aberration, a breath of fresh air. I date a jewish girl and go out socially with jewish americans and i’ve yet to find anyone of them who shares your views…i absolutely enjoy reading your observations on the abuses against the palestinians, they are clearly viewed through the eyes of a human being in search of justice with dignity for all involved in that crisis.

    kudos to you for your position.

  21. Amir: If what troubles you is that people accuse the IDF bulldozer driver of having seen Corrie & deliberately run her over & you’re disputing that, there is no possible way you can prove definitively that he did NOT see her. Similarly, one of the ISM eyewitness accounts seems to indicate the driver would’ve seen her & one indicates he might not have. So I cannot prove definitively that the driver DID see her.

    But whether or not that specific driver saw her the IDF still engaged in gross negligence in 2 important ways. First of all, it has designed the bulldozer for maximum protection of the driver & minimal ability to actually see where he’s going. So first, the fact that a driver does not have a clear line of site in the cabin is grossly negligent. Second, Wikipedia indicates that IDF policy specifies that the D9 bulldozer requires a spotter to work with it to guide it in order to avoid precisely the predicaments this driver faced & failed to negotiate successfully. The IDF, according to Wikipedia indicated there was no spotter working with the bulldozer that day. There were no IDF troops removing protestors fr. the bulldozer’s path as there usually were. Again, another pt. of gross negligence.

    So even if the driver did NOT see her (and I’m not conceding that he did not), the IDF still performed abysmally in this instance.

    Further, you have not defended or explained the killing of Palestinians who remain in their homes during demolitions. How is it possible that the IDF has done this??

  22. Look at the image of feigned anguish in her face.

    You are priceless. The poor girl is dead and you still attempt to steal from her her sincerity. You’re almost as bad as a gravedigger except you try to rob her dignity from her instead of her body. You should be ashamed. Perhaps a similar tragic fate might befall you some day. I hope no one does violence to yr principles or sincerity as you have done to her.

    Protesters regularly attempt to stop home demolitions. This is a process the IDF faces & knows about. If it cannot figure out a way not to kill people when they protest legitimately against an act they find repugnant, immoral and illegal, then it should hardly call itself an army that respects human life. Well, of course it respects Israeli human life. But not Palestinian or Arab lives or those of their foreign supporters.

  23. Great. Now apply any of those standards to Hamas, the PA, or any other substantial movement among their population.

  24. Most fatal accidents could be prevented. And that’s what we have here is a fatal accident, like those that happen all over the world all the time. The Israeli army shold have had them arrested and deported but israel is too liberal of a country and unfortunately allows foreigners on “tourist” visas to abuse their visit. But the primary responsbility lies with Rachel herself and the ISM who understood all too well the dangers they were putting themselves in.

    ‘We knew there was a risk,’ Smith said, ‘but we also knew it never happened in the two years that we (the ISM) have been working here. I knew we take lots of precautions so that it doesn’t happen, that if it did happen it would have to be an intentional act by a soldier, in which case it would bring a lot of publicity and significance to the cause

    (from the Guardian, March 23, 2003). So you see, for them its a win-win situation. That’s the kind of sick immoral people that are part of the ISM. From the same article.

    A traumatised Smith raised his camera and took photographs: Rachel standing in front of the bulldozer; then her bloodied body being pulled from the freshly turned soil; being cradled in the arms of her friends.

    Well, that lie has already been exposed. So not only are they immoral creeps they are also liars, and their testimony is highly dubious since they are obviously trying to milk her death for all its propaganda value (and now, with your help, I may add). (If he were telling the truth, and he watched it happen, don’t you think he would have tried to stop it from happening instead of just stand there and take pictures).

  25. amir, you are obfuscating – there is no need to “milk her death for it’s propaganda value” – these demolitions constitute war crimes – Rachel Corrie, whose father is Jewish, felt enough of a connection to Israel to stand in front of the bulldozer in an attempt to prevent one of these demolitions which take place frequently:

    Richard:”Further, you have not defended or explained the killing of Palestinians who remain in their homes during demolitions. How is it possible that the IDF has done this??”

    Please explain, amir – actually, we’ll let B’tselem explain:

    Since the beginning of the al-Aqsa intifada, the IDF has demolished 628 housing units, which were home to 3,983 persons.
    These homes were demolished because of the acts of 333 Palestinians. On average, 12 innocent people lost their home for every person suspected of participation in attacks against Israelis.
    Almost half of the homes demolished (295 – 47%) were never home to anyone suspected of involvement in attacks against Israelis. As a result of these demolitions, 1,286 persons lost their homes even though according to Israeli officials they should not have been punished.
    Contrary to its argument before the High Court of Justice that prior warning is given except in extraordinary cases, B’Tselem’s figures indicate that in only 3% of the cases were occupants given prior notification of the IDF’s intention to demolish their home.
    Extensive destruction of property in occupied territories, without military necessity, constitutes a war crime.
    Punitive House Demolitions of Palestinians – B’tselem (Israeli Information Centre for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories)

  26. Tangentlama – That excerpt from btselem is about “punitive” house demolitions. They are not relevant to what was happening in Rafiah at the time. You must know that Hamas and other terrorists had dug tunnels across the Egyptian border into civilian homes for the purpose of smuggling explosives for the production of rockets to fire at civilians living in Sderot and other communities outside of the Gaza strip (among other things).

  27. Amir – the smuggling tunnels existed alright, but the IDF exaggerated their number and usage – they claimed to have found 90 tunnels, but these turned out to be egresses (exit/entry shafts) and not tunnels – 90 egresses is not 90 tunnels, however one looks at the situation – the methods use to seal-off the tunnels is ludicrous – demolishing a whole house to seal an egress? The tunnels, of which there are an estimated 10-15 in total (not 90) were used to smuggle goods in to a beseiged REFUGEE CAMP. The more demolishings over egresses/shafts, the more incentive there is to smuggle in weapons to retaliate – really, the IDF has a hand in creating conflict and suffering, and compounding suffering of an already malnutrioned, unemployed and victimised refugee camp population. In all honesty, if the boot were on the other foot, Amir, would you not also be a part of the resistance to the curfews/blockades/incursions? Note also that “the tunnels weren’t big before the Intifada when people could work in Israel”
    Razing Rafah – Mass Home Demolitions in the Gaza Strip – IV: The Security Situation in Rafah

  28. From the CNN link above –

    Other witnesses, however, reported that Corrie had scaled a pile of dirt but then lost her footing and fell backward behind it, out of sight of the bulldozer operator. The bulldozer continued moving forward, covering Corrie with dirt and then crushing her.
    It was not clear whether the bulldozer operator could hear protesters’ yells over the sound of the machine.
    A member of the solidarity group, who identified herself as Alice from London, said she and Corrie had sat for about three hours in front of houses belonging to their friends. The driver of the bulldozer must have seen them, she said, but drove over Corrie anyway.

    Further, the NY Times correction support the idea that the picture immediately sent out to the world press by the PLO machine was not the bulldozer or driver that killed her…..

    This you would think would make one more suspicious of the initial accounts pushed out to the media by the PLO than less…. I mean even if you are prone, as some are on this site, to accuse and impugn the IDF, if you use the Cui Bono “theory” often thrown at the Israelis like in the Harriri assassination… you would ask how much this media event benefitted the PLO and hurt the Israelis…. and how the PLO would seem to cynically utilize situations like this for their benefit… Hezbollah’s media manipulation is another example of this and there have been quite a few documented cases of the PLO and the Palestinians doing this as well….

    However, this does not mean the IDF does not commit criminal acts (we could debate which are and arent) however, it also indicates that the PLO and Palestinians cynically utilize and have been caught posing for media. And in this case as in the Mohammed Al Durrah case, in my estimation, cynically if not disgustingly manipulate and aggrandize tragic events to score media points.

    Incidentally in the case of the British reporter that was shot if I remember correctly that soldier was in fact charged based on testimony of other IDF soldiers… Further, just for the record that soldier was an Israeli Arab serving in the IDF as a good number in fact do, particularly in the most dangerous zones, such as Rafah.

    What’s amazing is that a few ISM witnesses apparently gave the first quote. Considering the ISM is likely predisposed to give an “account” that would be harshly critical of the IDF particularly in this case.

    Second, there were other reports that confirmed this particular house was uninhabited and used for transporting drugs, prostitutes and bullets… all of which are highly profitable to sell…

  29. Most fatal accidents could be prevented. And that’s what we have here is a fatal accident, like those that happen all over the world all the time.

    You have adduced no evidence to prove that this was an accident though it certainly was “fatal.” If this accident WAS like those that happen all over the world then there would be no lawsuit in the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, no websites both in Corrie’s honor and to smear her, and no hit play in London last yr. which will now tour the world over. This is no typical fatal accident & nothing you can say will magically turn it into just an everyday nasty little happenstance.

    The Israeli army shold have had them arrested and deported but israel is too liberal of a country

    What a laugh. Israel arrests & deports ISM activists regularly. What further proof do you wish to proffer of Israel’s sterling liberal reputation??

    for them its a win-win situation. That’s the kind of sick immoral people that are part of the ISM

    No, he said they took many precautions to prevent an ACCIDENT and that the only way a death would occur was by an INTENTIONAL act on the part of the IDF. This has nothing to do with sickness or immorality. This has to do with a grassroots campaign against an immoral Occupation and acts clearly illegal under international law for which they have every right to protest. And certainly if the IDF DID commit an intentional act in this case then it deserves whatever bad publicity it gets and the protest movement deserves whatever sympathy it gets. Next time, tell the IDF to think twice before it mixes a DP armored bulldozer with a 23 year old woman. It’s the law of physics: the bulldozer always wins–or loses in moral terms in Israel’s case.

    If he were telling the truth, and he watched it happen, don’t you think he would have tried to stop it from happening instead of just stand there and take pictures).

    And you know how far away he stood from her precisely how??? Look at the pictures. They are not shot anywhere near Corrie. And if he was using a telefoto lens they couldn’t been shot even farther away than they appear. If he stood that far away and there were others nearer and he carried a camera and he was attempting to document the event, his reaction would’ve been perfectly reasonable under the circumstances. I love how people second guess others when they weren’t there, don’t know what really happened, & merely display their own prejudices in their “judgments.”

  30. Incidentally in the case of the British reporter that was shot if I remember correctly that soldier was in fact charged based on testimony of other IDF soldiers… Further, just for the record that soldier was an Israeli Arab serving in the IDF as a good number in fact do, particularly in the most dangerous zones, such as Rafah.

    You are little more than a propagandist in that you enter into the record only that which supports yr argument but conveniently omit anything that damages yr argument. The one that demolishes yours is that the officer charged with killing Tom Hurndall (who was a FILMMAKER, not a reporter as you inaccurately wrote) was EXONERATED as virtually any IDF soldier is who faces similar charges. So give the IDF one credit for soldiers willing to testify against one of their own and subtract 100 for an inability to hold anyone accountable for a clearly criminal action against an unarmed, defenseless British filmmaker.

    Another major error of yours is that the officer who shot Hurndall was NOT an Israeli Arab. Arabs do not serve in the IDF both because they choose not to and because the army views them as a security risk & would refuse to allow them if they did attempt to join. The solider was a Druze, which is a completely distinct ethnic group from Israeli Arabs.

    there were other reports that confirmed this particular house was uninhabited and used for transporting drugs, prostitutes and bullets

    Which reports? Proof, pls.

  31. Another major error of yours is that the officer who shot Hurndall was NOT an Israeli Arab. Arabs do not serve in the IDF both because they choose not to and because the army views them as a security risk & would refuse to allow them if they did attempt to join.

    No, Richard. You are the one with major errors. The man who killed Hurndall was Taysir Hayb. He wasn’t an officer as you claim but a sargeant. He isn’t Druze, he is Bedouin/Muslim. I’m sure he will be glad to hear he has been exonerated. This is probably news to him. His sister Amira al Hayb was the first Bedouin woman to serve in the IDF. Since then, many other Bedouin women have joined the IDF. Many Bedouins serve in the army, and are in fact given incentives to do so. The most famous was Abd el-Majid Hidr otherwise known as Lieutenant Colonel Amos Yarkoni, a highly decorated officer who is a legend in the IDF. Non-bedouins are also allowed to serve if they want to. Most don’t want to, but recently the IDF has been checking the willingness of Arabs to serve.

  32. He wasn’t an officer as you claim but a sargeant.

    A sergeant IS an officer. At least in the U.S. army. Is the IDF different than the rest of the world’s armies??

    This is probably news to him.

    Are you claiming he was punished? If so, you don’t say so. I read he was not punished or convicted of any charge. If you know otherwise you should say so & verify yr claim.

    The fact that you are pleased to hear that Tom Hurndall’s murderer got off scot free says a lot about your selective morallity when it comes to the actions of the IDF. The ISM are immoral liars, while those who kill unarmed filmmakers merely because they are shooting footage of Occupation activities are upstanding upholders of Israeli democratic values.

    As you know, Bedouins have quite a different ethnic identity than Israeli Arabs which is the group I was discussing. And you conveniently ignore that while many Israeli Arabs would justifiably refuse to serve in the IDF, it is mainly the IDF that refuses to have them. You say vaguely the “IDF has been checking the willingness of Arabs to serve.” I have no idea what that means & you really should clarify such statements for them to have any meaning. And when the IDF actually allows Israeli Arabs to serve pls. let us know.

  33. In the Israeli army a sergeant is not an officer. I haven’t served in any other army so I can’t say. Taysir Hayb served in the Israeli army and therefore he is not an officer. Taysr Hayb was sentenced to eight years for manslaughter and obstruction of justice. A google search on his name or Tom hurndall’s name will show you that I am correct.
    I did not express any pleasure about anyone getting off scot free. Read my comment again. I cynically said that Hayb would be glad to hear he was exonerated.
    The IDF does not actively draft Israeli Arabs, but I have never heard of an Israeli Arab that wanted to serve in the Army but was denied. If you have heard of such a case, I would be glad to hear about. A couple of years ago an Israeli muslim asked to be accepted to a Pilots training course, but was rejected. It’s hard to say he was rejected because he was a Muslim since it was a single case, and most applicants for pilot’s training are rejected. He was invited to join the paratroopers though. According to Haaretz about 150 Israeli Arabs Muslims (not including bedouins) and Christains volunteer each year. The Haaretz article is no longer available online but if you google “Arabs in the IDF” the article is extensivelly quoted in the first link. Even if you don’t like the blogger making the quotation, he is quoting Ha’aretz.
    Israeli Bedouins ARE Israeli Arabs. Excluding them from the category of Israeli Arabs is extremely racist, as though I were to say Jews but mean only Ashkenazis, or Americans and not include certain groups of Americans. I
    Lastly, I read somewhere, and I don’t remember where, that the army was taking telephone surveys among Israeli Arabs to test their attitudes about military service and instituting a gradual draft among them.

  34. Not all Badawa are Arab, and not all Badawit an Naqab are Arab – some are descended from Bosnian or Wallachian slaves brought in by Justinian, so is best not to make assumptions.

    Bedouin, who lived in Naqab for 7,000 years and counting, are also not able to build, even with the purchase of their land. 25 years have one family been waiting and still their house is demolished on their own land – the reasons are more to do with the ILA wanting to herd Badawa into certain enclave and eradicate Arabic names of their former villages/regions.

    It pains me to think of what is being done to the indiginous peoples who lived there for thousands and thousands of years, well before Abraham Avinu ever set foot in the region – they are not treated with respect by Israel – the Govt. treats them with disdain, although they lived lightly in the region.

    Now they must live with lakes of lung-searing pollutants forced to live near the industrial region – and these a semi-nomadic people. The Badawa deserve recognition for their ancient way of life much the same as the Sapmi whose ancient territory stretches across 4 nation states – Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia – their rights as nomadic herdsmen and farmers ought to be honoured. All Israel sees is real estate, industrial estates, illegal villages, and labour force.

    Forcing Badawa to live near Ramat Horav, demolishing their homes, spraying their crops with Monsanto roundup, denying them freedom of ancient way of life – it’s a disgrace, a shameful disgrace.
    ILA destroys Bedouin homes to make way for Jewish town

  35. Yes, you are right about the sentence against him though he is one of the few Israeli soldiers who HAS been prosecuted & the only reason he was was because he murdered a foreigner & the British Foreign Office was breathing down Israel’s neck to do something. Israelis who kill Palestinian civilians in similar circumstances are uniformly never prosecuted.

    And you are also right in that I misread yr comment carelessly to mean that you were pleased he was exonerated.

    Saying that 150 Israeli Arabs and Christians enlist in the IDF every year isn’t saying much. For all intents & purposes the army doesn’t want them & they don’t want the army. I would like to see that change, but it isn’t going to until the state and its military apparatus change in their attitude toward the Arab minority.

    Israeli Bedouins ARE Israeli Arabs. Excluding them from the category of Israeli Arabs is extremely racist,

    Oh fiddlesticks. You’re just huffing & puffing. I’m not saying that they aren’t Arabs. But a Bedouin has a ethnic origin & identity that is diff. than an Israeli Arab living in Nazareth. And both their social, political & cultural attitudes are entirely diff. as are their attitudes toward their State. If you don’t acknowledge this then you’re just posing rather than serious.

  36. No actually Richard it was you who “huffed and puffed” at myself and then Amir…

    You are little more than a propagandist in that you enter into the record only that which supports yr argument but conveniently omit anything that damages yr argument. The one that demolishes yours is that the officer charged with killing Tom Hurndall (who was a FILMMAKER, not a reporter as you inaccurately wrote) was EXONERATED as virtually any IDF soldier is who faces similar charges. So give the IDF one credit for soldiers willing to testify against one of their own and subtract 100 for an inability to hold anyone accountable for a clearly criminal action against an unarmed, defenseless British filmmaker.

    Oh, please excuse me for not pointing out he was a flimaker doing a documentary and NOT a Reporter… My apologies for that bit of “propoganda”….

    However, Amir seemed to then take apart your attempt to slam me and him
    Re: 1) His sentencing 2) ethnic origin 3) officership 4) Amir being “pleased” he got off for murder etc…
    as well as Israeli Arabs serving in the military.

    Also, how many Palestinians have been prosecuted by the PLO for murdering foreign nationals in terrorism?
    How about the Americans recently delivering scholarship money in Gaza?
    How about the Turkish peacekeeping forces shot a few years back in clearly marked cars?
    One could go on and on?

    Actually many of the people who engineered or took part in these attacks roam the halls comingle with many ISM activists….

  37. Amir seemed to then take apart your attempt to slam me and him
    Re: 1) His sentencing 2) ethnic origin 3) officership…as well as Israeli Arabs serving in the military

    To misquote Bob Dylan: “a man reads what he wants to read & disregards the rest.” Hayb was sentenced, but almost no other Israeli Border police or IDF soldiers are similarly prosecuted let alone convicted. Hayb was prosecuted only because a foreign government refused to accept IDF impunity.

    Hayb is Bedouin which is not the same as being an Israeli Arab. Bedouin serve in the IDF because they have a different relationship with the State than other Israeli Arabs (though the Israeli state actually treats them just about as badly).

    As far as Hayb not being an officer. Many Israeli officers have commited crimes as reprehensible as the one Hayb committed. Some of these cases are discussed here in this blog. Dan Halutz himself is a prime example of someone who has blood on his hands. I don’t deny Israel the right to defend itself against terror. But what Halutz & so many other officers have done during their careers goes far beyond mere defense and crosses the line into state terror & war crimes. And I am by no means excusing the crimes of the other side either.

    Amir claims that 150 non-Jews volunteer for the IDF ea. yr. First, we don’t know how many of them are Israeli Arabs. But let’s say there are 100. That’s 100 out of nearly 3 million Israeli Arabs. That is not a record to be proud of. It only proves that the IDF does not flat out reject every Arab who applies. And I would wonder where such Arabs serve? Are they allowed into combat units?

    Actually many of the people who engineered or took part in these attacks roam the halls comingle with many ISM activists

    This is a stupid scummy statement which really shows yr true colors. Make such unfounded, unsupported accusations again & your privileges to comment here will be reviewed. I have no problem with anyone criticizing the ISM here & a good number have. But to accuse the ISM of making common cause with murderers is beyond the pale. There are many websites that would welcome such garbage. Wouldn’t you be spending yr time more profitably among yr own kind at those sites?

  38. So let me get this straight my initial statement was SPOT ON? NO?
    He was sentenced, sitting in jail today and based in part on the testimony of other IDF soldiers…..?
    And further you erred and insulted me and my integrity? NO?
    You didn’t apologize or admit that you simply made a mistake…

    You are little more than a propagandist in that you enter into the record only that which supports yr argument but conveniently omit anything that damages yr argument. The one that demolishes yours is that the officer charged with killing Tom Hurndall (who was a FILMMAKER, not a reporter as you inaccurately wrote) was EXONERATED as virtually any IDF soldier is who faces similar charges.

    Instead here is your “statement” on it –

    To misquote Bob Dylan: “a man reads what he wants to read & disregards the rest.” Hayb was sentenced, but almost no other Israeli Border police or IDF soldiers are similarly prosecuted let alone convicted. Hayb was prosecuted only because a foreign government refused to accept IDF impunity.

    So you in fact erred in this case and insulted me on top that but?
    “It’s ok bcs many (according to you) other IDF officers have committed war crimes…

    Now let me quote my initial statement which you impugned which is actually a very fair not over the top statement –

    This you would think would make one more suspicious of the initial accounts pushed out to the media by the PLO than less…. I mean even if you are prone, as some are on this site, to accuse and impugn the IDF, if you use the Cui Bono “theory” often thrown at the Israelis like in the Harriri assassination… you would ask how much this media event benefitted the PLO and hurt the Israelis…. and how the PLO would seem to cynically utilize situations like this for their benefit… Hezbollah’s media manipulation is another example of this and there have been quite a few documented cases of the PLO and the Palestinians doing this as well….

    However, this does not mean the IDF does not commit criminal acts (we could debate which are and arent) however, it also indicates that the PLO and Palestinians cynically utilize and have been caught posing for media. And in this case as in the Mohammed Al Durrah case, in my estimation, cynically if not disgustingly manipulate and aggrandize tragic events to score media points.

    Incidentally in the case of the British reporter that was shot if I remember correctly that soldier was in fact charged based on testimony of other IDF soldiers… Further, just for the record that soldier was an Israeli Arab serving in the IDF as a good number in fact do, particularly in the most dangerous zones, such as Rafah.

    What’s amazing is that a few ISM witnesses apparently gave the first quote. Considering the ISM is likely predisposed to give an “account” that would be harshly critical of the IDF particularly in this case.

    Pretty fair accurate statement but instead you further insult and threaten me??
    You quote me in my latest post –

    Actually many of the people who engineered or took part in these attacks roam the halls comingle with many ISM activists

    Then you respond –

    This is a stupid scummy statement which really shows yr true colors.

    That’s another character assassination assassination right after the 1 above?

    Make such unfounded, unsupported accusations again & your privileges to comment here will be reviewed. I have no problem with anyone criticizing the ISM here & a good number have. But to accuse the ISM of making common cause with murderers is beyond the pale. There are many websites that would welcome such garbage. Wouldn’t you be spending yr time more profitably among yr own kind at those sites?

    Now a threat? And yes I have read accounts where some ISM activists in the past have shielded wanted men, Islamic Jihad top guys, in buildings… from the IDF… I imagine that means they were likey in the same halls?

  39. So let me get this straight my initial statement was SPOT ON? NO?

    No, you said he was charged but provided no proof of this. Amir provided proof, you didn’t. As for calling him “an Israeli Arab” he is a Bedouin which is an imprecise ethnic classification on yr part.

    you erred and insulted me and my integrity? NO?

    Get of yr high horse. I erred and if I insulted you & yr integrity you fully deserved it for other reasons than yr statement that Hayb was “charged” which turned out to be correct (though you didn’t authenticate it). You’ve made so many other errors here which I have verified that I have no compunction attacking yr credibility. As for apologies, you can wait till Hell freezes over for one. People who come here & write in bad faith don’t get velvet glove treatment. People who disagree w. me here but do so in good faith have gotten apologies from me when I’ve been proven wrong. As for you, fughedaboudit!

    Here’s something for you to chew on. Why don’t you present some statistics showing us how many IDF soldiers or Border Police officers are ever charged with violations of human rights or crimes against Palestinians. Or tell me why the Border Police who shot 12 Nazareth Arabs dead in cold blood in 2000 were never charged w. any violation.

    Then we can determine whether the Hayb prosecution is the exception that proves the rule; or whether it is the norm as it should be if Israel were truly democratic & the IDF was truly accountable. I note that after my repeating this fact twice earlier you’ve refused to address it. Why would that be?

    instead you further insult and threaten me

    ‘Threaten?’ Hardly. Warning you that you violate my comment rules is just that, a warning. And go check out those rules. They say you must support charges w. real evidence. You didn’t do that which I why I warned you. You can choose to adhere to my rules as I explain them to you or not. It’s yr choice. But to call this a threat is ridiculous.

    I have read accounts where some ISM activists in the past have shielded wanted men, Islamic Jihad top guys, in buildings… from the IDF

    You should know by now that nothing you say here is considered accurate without a source. Yr. claim will be considered unsubstantianted until you do so.

  40. I really don’t understand what you are trying to say by distinguishing Bedouins from other Israeli Arabs. They are Israeli and they are Arabs. How is the fact that Israeli Arabs are a heterogenous group relevant?

    Or tell me why the Border Police who shot 12 Nazareth Arabs dead in cold blood in 2000 were never charged w. any violation.

    You’re a bit sloppy with the facts. 12 Nazareth Arabs were never shot by border police. If you’re talking about the riots of Oct 2000, then we’re talking about riots that spanned several days and dozens od Arab villages over Israel. Three of the killed were from Nazareth, and to the best of my recollection they were for the most part confronted by regular police and not border police. Alek Ron (the commander – today in meretz) and Guy Raif were definitely in the regular police and not the border police. An additional Palestinian was killed and an Israeli was killed by stone throwers. The events were investigated by a committee, I haven’t read the report, but you’ve mentioned this event (inacurrately) so many times, so I suggest you read it. BTW – have any of the police been investigated or tried over the 1992 Los Angeles riots. Eight people were shot by law enforcement agents and 2 by the national guard.

  41. I really don’t understand what you are trying to say by distinguishing Bedouins from other Israeli Arabs. They are Israeli and they are Arabs. How is the fact that Israeli Arabs are a heterogenous group relevant?

    The attitudes of Bedouin toward the state & serving in the IDF are entirely different from Israeli Arabs. So to claim that Hayb is an example of an Israeli Arab who was willing to serve in the IDF in order to refute the idea that almost all other Israeli Arabs refuse to serve, is bogus. A Bedouin’s attitude toward IDF service is entirely different than an Israeli Arab’s.

    Actually, we were both wrong according to Haaretz. I was wrong because actually 13 Israeli Arabs were murdered, not 12 as I originally stated:

    Thirteen men were killed in the riots, 12 of them Israeli citizens.

    My original understanding was that there was a major altercation in Nazareth proper at which most are killed but it appears others were killed in village/s nearby as well.

    As for whether the local police or Border Police killed them, it was my impression it was Border Police. If it wasn’t I stand corrected.

    As for the Los Angeles riots, first you’re introducing a red herring. One tactic of Israel apologists I’ve noticed is that when they’re uncomfortable focussing on Israel’s flaws they introduce another supposedly morally ambiguous event to detract fr. Israel’s culpability for their own behavior. Why can’t you stay focussed on the issue instead of introducing new factors that have nothing to do w. the original discussion?

    First, the Israeli police were confronted with unarmed protestors who posed no threat into whom they fired many rounds of live ammunition. Second, there was an investigation which exonerated everyone involved. This fact was a scandal within Israel which embarrassed both Jews and Arabs, as reported by Haaretz. Third, the state has done nothing to rectify the suffering or damage its agents caused.

    In the LA riots which I lived through, there was utter chaos in the streets. Entire portions of the city went up in flames (I know because I watched it with terror every night). Police and firemen were pelted with stones and bottles. Stores were looted and burned in many neighborhoods. Residential complexes were torched. It was a war zone. Police and average citizens were in fear for their lives. Some people were killed, yes. I don’t know if there WAS an investigation or not of the deaths. But this was an entirely different event than what the Israeli police faced. The deaths in Nazareth were caused by racism and the cheap value of an Arab life in the eyes of the Israeli police.

  42. I knew that there was an additional Palestinian Arab killed, but I wanted to make my post shorter. But there was also an Israeli Jew killed, which everyone seems to forget. Jan Bachor, 53 years old and father of two boys and two girls from Rishon Letzion was killed after being pelted with “stones” striking his chest by “youths” from Jasr al-Zarka.

    there was utter chaos in the streets. Entire portions of the city went up in flames Police and firemen were pelted with stones and bottles. Stores were looted and burned in many neighborhoods. Residential complexes were torched.

    Jeez, this sounds like a good descpription of what was going on in Wadi Ara and Nazareth at the time. Like I said, I didn’t read the report so I can’t comment about the behavior of the police at every incident, that day, but obviously you haven’t read it either.

  43. I didn’t know an Israeli Jew was killed. This is horrible.

    Do you mean to tell me that a city of 6 million people going up in flames & in utter chaos is the same as what happened in Nazareth?? Puh-leeze. How do you justify Israeli police killing unarmed demonstrators???

  44. You seem to not understand the scale of events those days. First of all look at the map on this page: http://elyon1.court.gov.il/heb/veadot/or/d.htm. This is from the website of Israel’s supreme court. Each circle represents a confrontation between police and rioters in the north only. At wikipedia in Hebrew there is a full chronology of events those days. For exmple – the first on the list is in Um el-Fahm: “there was a quiet and peaceful demonstration which dispersed. A group of people went to the main road (a major artery between east and west) blocked the road and threw stones. More people joined them and pelted the police with stones. The police responded with tear gas and rubber bullets. the police tried to overtake the junction and were attacked with burning tires, steel bars and a molotov cocktail. After the molotov cocktail was thrown, the police opened with live fire. Two of the arabs were killed 40 civilians and 7 police officers were injured.” And it goes on and on. this was not a case of police firing on peaceful demonstrators. In Tamra demonstrators blocked traffic stopped cars and checked ID cards. Jewish drivers were beaten up. In Arabe the police station was completely destroyd by “demonstrators”. Majd el-Crom police were attacked with molotov cocktails. in Nazareth the police were shot at with live ammunition. And the list goes on and on. Buses, cars and businesses were set on fire including an Arab restaurant (not bedouin) because the owner flew an Israeli flag. After the first day, 2 Arabs were killed, 58 policemen were injured, and scores of Jewish civilians were injured. This went on for 10 days. I can’t vouch for every shot fired by every cop, but when I think of the scope of the riots and the danger the rioters posed to civilians like myself, I support the police overall. And I’m grateful that there are still people willing to take positions which place them at risk in order to protect me and my family.

  45. ME: So let me get this straight my initial statement was SPOT ON? NO?

    RICHARD: No, you said he was charged but provided no proof of this. Amir provided proof, you didn’t. As for calling him “an Israeli Arab” he is a Bedouin which is an imprecise ethnic classification on yr part.

    So I made a statement which was actually accurate. For which Richard called me a propogandist and essentially a liar. (see my exact quote of him above)

    But……………………….. according to Richard now because I provided no proof of my recollection, which turned out to be correct, I am still a propogandist and a liar and it’s still ok that Richard even though he turned out to be wrong… called me a name…

    And now this gentleman still doesn’t have the class to simply say I’m sorry you were actually correct and I shouldn’t have called you a cheap insulting name?

    Instead, he insulted me again, as I quoted above, after he knew he was wrong.
    NOW AGAIN, here is my initial statement:

    Incidentally in the case of the British reporter that was shot if I remember correctly that soldier was in fact charged based on testimony of other IDF soldiers… Further, just for the record that soldier was an Israeli Arab serving in the IDF as a good number in fact do, particularly in the most dangerous zones, such as Rafah.

    NOW COMPARE RICHARD’S 3RD REPLY WITHOUT AN ADMISSION OR AN APOLOGY TO MY STATEMENT ABOVE…

    Get of yr high horse. I erred and if I insulted you & yr integrity (here comes another excuse..)you fully deserved it for other reasons (an admission and apology if I ever heard one?) than yr statement that Hayb was “charged” which turned out to be correct (though you didn’t authenticate it). You’ve made so many other errors here which I have verified that I have no compunction attacking yr credibility.
    As for apologies, you can wait till Hell freezes over for one. People who come here & write in bad faith don’t get velvet glove treatment. People who disagree w. me here but do so in good faith have gotten apologies from me when I’ve been proven wrong. As for you, fughedaboudit!

    You were just proven wrong. Is this how you teach your kids to apologize and act like men?

    And yet the venom goes on…

    Here’s something for you to chew on. Why don’t you present some statistics showing us how many IDF soldiers or Border Police officers are ever charged with violations of human rights or crimes against Palestinians. Or tell me why the Border Police who shot 12 Nazareth Arabs dead in cold blood in 2000 were never charged w. any violation.

    AND THIS HAS WHAT?? exactly to do with the case I mentioned of the filmaker shot in Gaza?

    Btw, can you provide statistics for your thrown in anectdote?
    The entire Arab world disagrees with you?

    Yet more avoidance, venom and obfuscation….

    Then we can determine whether the Hayb prosecution is the exception that proves the rule; or whether it is the norm as it should be if Israel were truly democratic & the IDF was truly accountable. I note that after my repeating this fact twice earlier you’ve refused to address it. Why would that be?

    Again, what does this have to do with me mentioning the case above and the outcome? NOTHING…

    Did I make any statement about the track record of prosecutions? NO….

    Did Richard impugn my integrity and turn out to be WRONG? Yes…

    Did he admit his mistake like a man and simply move on…? NO….

    And now Big Brother throws in another threat……

    ‘Threaten?’ Hardly. Warning you that you violate my comment rules is just that, a warning. And go check out those rules. They say you must support charges w. real evidence. You didn’t do that which I why I warned you. You can choose to adhere to my rules as I explain them to you or not. It’s yr choice. But to call this a threat is ridiculous.

    Very sad….

  46. Jimmy Collins: It goes on an on ad nauseum. You repeat yrself endlessly. You say nothing new. You ask me to apologize. I say no. Then you remonstrate yet again about the heinousness of my refusal. Sorry but I’ve got better things to do. I’ve relieved you of yr responsibilities to monitor this site for yr brethren in Zion. I may change my mind at some pt. & resume yr access. Check back if you wish.

  47. After the molotov cocktail was thrown, the police opened with live fire. Two of the arabs were killed 40 civilians and 7 police officers were injured

    Knowing the provocation that is standard procedure with Israeli Border Police, I have to wonder what type of interaction there was bet. the demonstrators & police that could have escalated the situation beyond what it would otherwise have been. Also, is it a proportionate use of force to open fire on demonstrators for throwing a molotov cocktail killing 2 & wounding 40?

    in Nazareth the police were shot at with live ammunition

    You do not provide a source & I would question this contention w/o one. You said something about Hebrew Wikipedia. But there must be an original source to this claim & I’d like to see it if there is one. I’ve never heard or read anywhere that Arabs shot at police.

    BTW, English Wikipedia notes that at least one demonstrator WAS killed by Border Police. Perhaps you’d like to take back my claim that BOrder Police were not involved in these incidents?

    In Jat, Rami Khatem Gharra was shot in the eye by Border Policeman Rashed Murshid, and later died of his injuries. Murshid was firing rubber bullets at 15 metres towards the upper body, in contravention to that weapon’s non-lethal operation directive to be used at longer range towards the lower body.

    And since you’re proud of the police behavior during the disturbances I’m sure you’re equally proud of this behavior (also fr. Wikipedia):

    Misleh Hussein Abu Jarad from Deir al-Balah in the Gaza Strip was killed and at least seven others were injured in Umm al-Fahm, after Commander of the Northern District, Alik Ron, gave orders to snipers to open fire with live-ammunition on stone-throwers in contravention with Police procedure.

    Walid Abdul-Menem Abu Saleh, 21, and Emad Farraj Ghanaym, 25, were killed in an industrial area in the Sakhnin area/Misgav Regional Council, when police fired live ammunition to disperse stone-throwers.[12] Walid was shot in the head and Emad in the heart.[4]

    It seems that it is standard Israeli police procedure to shoot to kill at stone throwing demonstrators. Would they react the same way to Jewish demonstrators?

    Also, the death of the single Jewish victim of the disturbances did NOT occur as you claim:

    A Jewish citizen, Bachor Jann from Rishon LeZion, was killed after being hit by a stone thought to have been thrown by those taking part in the protests in Jisr az-Zarqa while driving on the Haifa-Tel Aviv freeway

    While his death was till heinous & uncalled for. Throwing a stone at a passing car on the freeway & killing a driver is not the same as beating someone to death (as you claimed happened) & would not be prosecuted as such in a court of law. And btw, I note you named this victim & mourned him (in which I join you). But why have you not similar compassion for the Arab victims & why have you neither mourned nor named them? Don’t they merit yr compassion?

  48. Perhaps you’d like to take back my claim that BOrder Police were not involved in these incidents?

    I said

    to the best of my recollection they were for the most part confronted by regular police and not border police.

    I haven’t “mourned” anyone. I mentioned his name so you wouldn’t think i was making it up. The point is that this is not a case of police shooting into crowds of peaceful demonstrators like one might think from your description of this event, but rather an attempt by police to protect civilians from the wrath of a mob.
    This is how the events in Nazareth transpired according to the Or commision: Oct 1, Hundreds of demonstrators took to the streets after calls at a mosque to go out to the biggest demonstration the city has known. At the same time they were joined by a march of the Islamic movement to the city center … 1,500 participants. The demonstrators shouted “Allahu Akbar” and “Khayber, Khayber, Jews the army of Mohammed will return.” (If you don’t know about the battle of Khaybar you may want to read about it in wikipedia to see what a peaceful slogan that is.) After the demonstration tires were burned, stones thrown etc. In the afternoon Bank Hapolim and several other stores were set on fire. The police were attacked with stones, sling shots, firecrackers and fireworks. Dozens of people attacked the police station. The police used a lot of tear gas and rubber bullets to disperse them. The report then mentions two additional incidents; at 14:00 a woman named Nasrin Asili was beaten by police who claimed that she pushed them. They are being investigated by the unit which investigates police. And, at 19:30 a policeman was shot with live ammunition while the police were at Paulus street near the Burger King which was looted shortly before, and according to witnesses was set on fire. Several bullets were fired at the police which hit officer Meir Asolin in the leg and he was hospitalized.
    source: http://elyon1.court.gov.il/heb/veadot/or/inside2.htm Paragraph 33B.
    It’s really a no brainer. Arab politicians and religious leaders incited riots which posed an obvious danger to the safety of the public and the police and the police responded in the best manner they could in accordance to their preparation. I think they should be thanked, not punished. That doesn’t mean that every single use of gunfire was justified. In fact, because of the large number of injured policeman, and the fact that the riots lasted 10 days, it is obvious that the amount of force used was disproportionate, disproportionately low that is.
    The Or commision was only set up because Barak was afraid of losing the Arab vote. He lost it anyway. if I was a policeman, I wouldn’t vote for Barak.

  49. Jann Bachor was killed by a rock which was dropped on his car from a bridge while his wife was driving. The rock was so big the it penetrated the window and struck him on the chest killing him. Though suspects were arrested they were released and no one was charged. I was able to gather these details from different Hebrew posts including court protocols, but it was very difficult because there has been very little interest in his case, and the information is very sparse. Also, there are at least 3 or 4 spelling of Jann in Hebrew.

  50. The point is that this is not a case of police shooting into crowds of peaceful demonstrators like one might think from your description of this event, but rather an attempt by police to protect civilians from the wrath of a mob.

    Then you haven’t read the Wikipedia sources I provided. There are numerous instances in which Arabs were killed or wounded when they were unarmed & not even demonstrating.

    it is obvious that the amount of force used was disproportionate, disproportionately low that is.

    That is a cruel statement. What, would you have had more than 12 Arabs killed in order to have provided a greater level of safety & security for yr fellow Jewish citizens??

    if I was a policeman, I wouldn’t vote for Barak.

    I don’t know that I’d vote for him either. But my reasons would be entirely diff.

  51. Maybe a more forcefull and early response would have PREVENTED death and injury to BOTH Jewish and Arab citizens.

  52. Maybe a more forcefull and early response would have PREVENTED death and injury to BOTH Jewish and Arab citizens.

    …Or else provoked a full blown internal Israeli intifada that, instead of lasting 10 days, might’ve lasted 10 months or 10 years.

  53. Thanks for the link. It is a very sad decision and one I hope they will appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. I am glad that Rachel Corrie is getting the day in court she deserves and that her memory is being respected by bringing the issues involved in her murder before the legal community and American public.

    I note that the Corrie’s lawyer, Erwin Chemerinsky, one of the country’s most distinguished constitutional scholars, was denied a position as dean of UC Irvine’s new law school because local S. California Republican nincompoops derailed his appointment using this as one of the grounds. There is hell to pay for upholding the rights of individuals and forcing public scrutiny upon them.

  54. Maybe my approach is colored by having been a lawyer for the past 25 years or so, but here goes:

    1. Tort liability on the part of Caterpillar is wrong. It is generally accepted law that the manufacturer of a legal product is not liable for the wrongful act of a third party — for example, should Ford or General Motors be liable if one of their cars is used in a bank robbery? To argue that Caterpillar knew or should have known that the bulldozers would be used in a “war crime” creates a huge due process problem for Caterpillar. There is no way to compel the cooperation of the IDF in this case, which would be essential. For the 9th Circuit to hold otherwise, and presume the existence of a war crime, would have our courts making foreign policy independent of the other branches of government.

    2. The plaintiffs were simply in the wrong court. If there was a human rights violation, they could have brought it in Israel, which has a very independent judiciary, and would have jurisdiction over the IDF. If the Israeli legal system were to hold that the home demolition program is not a “war crime”, the Israeli courts are entitled to the same deference that we would give to Canada or Britain.

  55. If there was a human rights violation, they could have brought it in Israel, which has a very independent judiciary, and would have jurisdiction over the IDF.

    I don’t know how much you know about the Israeli judiciary but its independence, esp. in cases involving national security, terror & oversight of the IDF is decidedly in question.

  56. Many Israelis groan about the Supreme Court in the same way that some Americans groaned about Earl Warren a generation ago. The Court has held the government’s feet to the fire on many occasions, and on the separation wall, has caused work to be halted or rerouted.

    Many states, including Virginia where I practice, have enacted the Uniform Foreign Country Money-Judgments Recognition Act. Under that statute, assuming personal and subject matter jurisdiction, a judgment of a foreign court can be docketed in a state court, under the same principles as a judgment of another state under the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution. This does not apply where the foreign judgment was “rendered under a system which does not provide impartial tribunals or procedures compatible with the requirements of due process of law.” Thus, a judgment from a British court can be docketed in Illinios (which as adopted the UFCMJRA) or Virginia, but not a judgment from Burma.

    The plaintiffs could have sued in Israel, and if they obtained a judgment against Caterpillar, then dockted that judgment in Illinois under the UFCMJRA. The language in the statute refers to the “system”, i.e. is the judicial system of the foreign country independent and does it provide for due process of law. In the Corrie case, the plaintiff’s “forum shopped”, hoping that they would find success in the Ninth Circuit, when they could have brought an action in a court that has jurisdiction over all of the participants.

  57. The plaintiffs could have sued in Israel, and if they obtained a judgment against Caterpillar

    But they never could for the reasons I enunciated clearly in my earlier comment. The Israeli High Court would never second guess intelligence or military decisions even if they WERE worthy of sanction for reasons that have to do w. Israeli inability or unwillingness to exercise the judicial perogative of oversight.

    Many Israelis groan about the Supreme Court in the same way that some Americans groaned about Earl Warren a generation ago. The Court has held the government’s feet to the fire on many occasions, and on the separation wall, has caused work to be halted or rerouted.

    That’s perfectly true. In some instances the Court has shown great courage & sound judgment. And in others it has completely absconded fr. its judicial responsibility (usually when the case involves Palestinians or second guessing or punishing military violations of law or morality).

  58. Sorry if this repeats points made above, I don’t have time to read it all now, I stumbled here looking for something else.
    Articles 146 and 147 of Geneva IV specify that the “extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly” is a grave breach of the Convention which the contracting parties are bound to incorporate into domestic legislation. Might the War Crimes Act of 1996 make Caterpillar criminally liable? Are there any precedents of European companies charged with reference to WW2/Holocaust offences in US courts?
    Articles 146 and 147 of Geneva IV are worth reading at
    http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e636b/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5
    I think that property destruction and appropriation are the best candidates for prosecutions because of the vast amount of documented evidence (eg Al Haq at http://www.alhaq.org excellent source of high quality material). Unlike ‘accidental’ shootings etc, the intended purpose of the act specifically violates the Convention.
    Certainly, the legislative incorporation of the convention has had the effect of disbarring senior members and former members of the Israeli Military from travel to parts of Europe.

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