It took eight days, but Masada2000 is down once more. Unfortunately, the site’s Kahanist friends at Jewish Task Force didn’t realize that Bluehost (their latest webhost) was a Mormon hosting company and might be a tad offended at the pornography, nudity and profanity at the site. Maybe next time they should try to find out who hosts sites belonging to the Aryan Nation and American Nazi Party (if there is still such a thing) and ask to be hosted there. One thing’s for certain, they need a hard core host who doesn’t flinch at the 110 proof hate spewed there.
I’d like to thank Bluehost as a company and its CEO, Matt Heaton, for recognizing the danger posed by a site like Masada2000 and the suffering it inflicts on the thousands of innocent Jews it cyber-bullies there.
Tonight, I discovered an extraordinary article, In Defense of Self-Hating Jews, about Masada2000 by Menachem Wecker in Jewish Currents (man, that’s a blast from the past isn’t it?). It provides interviews with many of those featured in the S.H.I.T. List (Self-Hating and Israel-Threatening Jews) and most importantly it thoroughly airs and debunks the poisonous term “self-hating Jew.”
My wife and some progressive friends had recently asked me whether pursuing this site was worth the time it diverted from the truly important work that I try to do here. It’s a worthwhile question and even led me to write an e mail to a JTF forum member suggesting that I’d back off my pursuit of Masada2000 if it would remove my S.H.I.T. listing and if JTF would cease publishing abusive material about me. Then I spent 15 minutes reviewing what JTF forum members had said about me in the past week. Prominent among the comments were “kapo.” “fag,” and a wish that I contract cancer. I decided a sulha with these people was impossible.
And after reading Wecker’s story, it reaffirmed the importance of combating such Jewish hate. No one likes to get their hands dirty in dealing with the slime that oozes from that site. But if it goes unanswered and unfought, then the hate there has an opportunity to slowly seep into the mainstream Jewish discourse.
The Begin era has opened the floodgates for these divisive forces in Israel and worldwide.
The USA has never had a decent Jewish leadership that could cleanse the ranks of Jews from these revisionist views.
The USA Jews need a quiet campaign for a peaceful dissolution of Judaism that reflects the pre-Spinoza, pre-Hegel times.
We need a clean break with the the cheap theologies as has been cultivated by millions of rabbis in the far corners of Eastern Europe pre WWII.
Read one of the critiques of Christianity in the Times Online London.
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/non-%20fiction/article1807640.ece
I would like to see a civilized parallel activity in Judaism, replacing its weak theology with a strong historical research. And we can save the positive messages of our ancient people.
I’m not quite sure what your comment has to do with this post, Steve. But while I respect you, I don’t agree by any means with yr views on Judaism. I’d say a religion that has survived & even thrived over the millenia still has something important to say to its adherents & the world. Of course, there are Jews & even rabbis who voice corrupt, backward and hateful views on issues. But that doesn’t mean you throw the baby out w. the bath water.
fuck you! Masada2000 will be back in 2 weeks! we will win you mother fucker!
Thanks for mentioning the Jewish Current’s article In Defense of Self Hating Jews by Menachem Wecker (why is he a blast from the past?) and the link http://www.jewishcurrents.org/2007-may-wecker.htmnanks b. We have a placed a link
to your blog at Jewish Currents. The value of spending the time as you have has more value than exposing the hate and its consequences. It can create bonds of solidarity amongst those on these hate lists and more. The editor of Jewish Currents, Lawrence Bush who has blog of his own at http://jewishcurrents.blogspot.com/ was disappointed not to be included on the list, others might feel the same way. I would come up with a different name for such lists, .Whatever the name of these and other future lists being on such far from being something low, it can be considered a badge of honor.
Now that Masada2000 is down, it is time to go after radio Islam. As the rant below shows, they are hosted by an American webhost, but they have not responded to my inquiries. Perhaps other readers of this blog could have an impact
http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/radiois/jdl.htm#PLOT
[edited]
Ira: Thanks for writing. I was glad to feature the Wacker article as it is excellent. I meant that Jewish Currents is a blast fr. the past. I used to hear about it 20 years ago or so. I’m glad to hear that Larry’s the editor. He published something of mine about 20 yrs. ago in genesis2 I believe. A good man. Send him drishat shalom fr. me (he may not remember me).
Thanks for the blog link. I’ll certainly reciprocate with both Jewish Currents & Larry’s blog, which I’ll visit soon.
I published this brilliant riposte once again to show my readers what the Kahanist/Masada2000 set is capable of. All I can say in response is: “YAWN.”
The first poster’s comments reminded me again of the indispensable Israel Shahak, who did such invaluable research into the racism, misogyny and all-around backwardness of doctrinaire Judaism, (a black cloud hanging over the Jewish people who have no further need for such silly hocus-pocus and would be well rid of it).
I first read Shahak on Radioislam and for this, they deserve great credit. It seems to me they have posted some stupid (and probably, anti-Semitic) stuff as well. I think they should publish whatever they like and the same for the lunatics at Massada, providing they do not post names and incite readers to acts of violence or intimidation.
I was glad to read the great holocaust historian Raul Hilberg’s recent remarks, for example, his contention that criminalizing holocaust denial is idiotic and counter-productive, as well as his staunch defense of Norman Finkelstein against the pro-Israel goon squad assembled to attack him:
http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_6.1-2/hilberg.htm
Open debate always works to Israel’s disadvantage, which is just one of many reasons we should support it.
p.s. a point of difference w/ Mr. Silverstein. The mentality of Massada2000 (if not the sheer brainlessness of their delivery) has been enshrined in mainstream Jewish discourse for a very long time, in particular, the seething, anti-arab racism and hysteria. Personally, I think it might be helpful for people to get a good dose of it in its undiluted form, so they can better recognize it, (even when disguised in the more “diplomatic” rhetoric of Olmert, Avigdor Leiberman, etc).
rykart, ufortunately you are right. One need only (briefly) peruse the writings of Marty Peretz for proof that Arab hatred is alive and tolerated in mainstream journalism.
Also, I was myself tagged as a Self hating, Israel threatening “new age hippie Jew” by the insane clowns at Masada2000. I don’t happen to be Jewish, but I certainly took it as a compliment.
While I also find Masada2000 abhorent, it was also a useful source for finding out about an entire group of enlightened Jews (those on the S.H.I.T. list) whose only ‘crime’ for the most part was thinking for themselves and not following the ‘orthodoxy’ espoused by M2000. For a group supposedly sounding the alarm against those who would demean and attack Jews, they consistently attacked their targets for their looks, religious practices and beliefs, sexuality, place of employment or education, upbringing, independence, and willingness to examine other methods for peaceful coexistence and conflict resolution. I found it most troubling that the bulk of the phone numbers listed were for the True Torah Jews, whom they probably felt would be most susceptable to this form of intimidation. I suspect that they (TTJ) choose to be open about their doctrines and do not hide in the shadows yet it is clear that the M2000 bunch operate with the false bravado afforded by anonymity. As important (or more so) than shutting them down would be outing their adherents. The most ardent Nazi of the Hitler era would recognize their tactics and approve. While it is sad that they exist at all (as an organization), I am also of the belief that sunlight is a powerful disinfectant and that many people would not believe the level of hatred and ignorance unless they saw it for themselves. Even if the site is not able to operate again, it should be archived somewhere and put on display in the same manner that atrocities and sociopathic mindsets are spotlighted in regards to holocaust studies.
I couldn’t agree more. But first, the site will be back. These nutjobs don’t give up & they’ll find some other unsuspecting webhost to take them on. But hopefully, just like Bsinet & Bluehost, the next host will see what slime they’re associating with & pull the plug.
Even if the site is down, it is permanently available (though with an archival delay of about 5-6 months) at the Internet Archives’ invaluable Wayback Machine. Though unfortunately, when the site is down the Wayback Machine cannot display the images at the site & they, again unfortunately, are some of the most disgusting & hateful material featured there.
This is just my observation, but I see we have 13 comments talking about how ‘difficult’ right wing Jews are (in one way or another) and only one comment that reflects any desire to pursue any form of Islamic militancy/extremism. Like another one of your writers, I too try to see the line of equivalence between all forms of hatred and prejudice. Yet, and perhaps I’m incorrect, this is a Jewish website that states it is supportive of Israel’s right to exist free from terror that spends much more of it’s time focusing on other Jews who are by and large not murdering each other.
To my further dismay, there is even one comment that salutes the work of Norman Finkelstein whose life work it has been to destroy liberal support for an autonomous Jewish state. I’d like to find one Muslim website where we could find 12/13 comments posted on the problem of Islamofascism, without a subsequent waylaying of responsibility onto Israeli leadership, right-wing Christians, America, and/or ‘the Jews,’ as a historic and international force for the corruption of all peoples in all times. Just the same reworked anti-Semitic diatribes with a new and progressive spin!
I can’t see why you have a problem with the term “self-hating Jews. I find another writer on your site, besides Dean, John, who presented several criticisms and not one of your readers felt it was important to respond against the Islamic hate directed against the Bahai or homosexuals, even when the initial poster, whom I believe John was responding to, Guest, stated that killing gays was LEGAL & MORAL. Guest was also stunned by John’s thinking these lawful acts of murder were considered to be in John’s mind “egregious”–which they certainly are. WHY DIDN’T ANYONE RESPOND? As John himself wrote, ‘I’d like to know.’
The Left has always given a lot of lip service to being interested gay civil rights and not one person on your board publicly responded to Guest, even though he proproses that under Islam, killing gays is moral and John is (some pejorative word) for thinking that it isn’t criminal. I don’t think we’d find THIS SAME KIND OF INTERNALLY DIRECTED CRITICISM, ON A MUSLIM WEBSITE. The closest thing I can think of is Nonie Darwish’s website and she doesn’t preach for the hating of any group. Please answer this question, without blaming Jews, john, dean, me, the christian right, whomever, about why no one responded to Guest’s statements that violence and MURDER was acceptable??? This is something that gay and lesbian people in America have the right to know: why you choose censure for other Jews who disagree with your platform, but it’s free and clear hunting in gays and lesbians if you are a religious Muslim. I wouldn’t and didn’t accept that from Christians preachers in my own backyard, why should any American who holds dear to the tenets of liberalism not condemn or challenge a person, like Guest, who is SO COMFORTABLE in his hate. Your contributers focus on every piece of minutia that the Israeli government has allegedly done to the Palestinian people. You even have people on your site who express a support of people like Norman Finkelstein, and yet NO ONE wrote anything against the remarks made by contributer ‘Guest.’ Not responding to that is the same every person who visits this blog giving a tacit nod of approval to the sentiments expressed by Guest. It’s disgrace and the so-called liberals who wrote nothing in response to Guest either have their problems with gay and lesbian equality, or equally as bad, they prefer to protect militant Islam’s right to hate and judge, in ways that you would not see in response to Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc. You need to consider this.
I apologize, but on this very page, there’s another statement which is also disturbing, written by ‘Rykart.’ He states:
“Open debate always works to Israel’s disadvantage, which is just one of many reasons we should support it.”
No one batted eyelash at this. You don’t see why people call you self-hating? It’s unbelievably tragic and sickening at the same time. I am struck by the well-spring of anger, I experience on this site when I read so many people supporting the people that would not think twice about murdering Jews or eliminating Israel from the map. People like Rykart can come to your site and write something as evil and gloating as what he did above. Guess can come here and chastise someone for question the murder of an entire group of people and no one, except one member, responds. My GOD, get your heads out of the sand.
Jane,
Great comments. You really hit the nail on the head. Richard Silverstein claims to be a supporter of Israel and other good causes, yet if you read this site, see how he treats dissenting opinions, and does not speak out against Islamic hate, it is obvious where he stands.
The sad thing is he doesn’t realize he is on the wrong side of history. Tikkun Olam? Not likely.
I hope Jane can point us toward some recent articles about Egyptians, Jordanians, etc herding their gay populations into open air prison camps and attacking them with U.S.-supplied Apache helicopters. That might give her tiresome rantings about “Islamofascism” a bit more weight. I’ll leave aside for the moment, the more repellent aspects of Judeofascism. Again, they have been studied in considerable depth by Israel Shahak, with a lively forward by Gore Vidal: )
http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/books/jewhis/jewhis1.htm
Turning to Israel, i leave you with that marvelous “self-hating Jew” Philip Roth, who has so eloquently expressed the sentiments of many of us regarding this plague on world Jewry in the disguise of a sovereign state:
Philip, you said a mouthful!
I find it unbelievable that you would endorse Kahanism & sites like Masada2000 by saying they’re “not murdering” anyone. First, Kahanists have murdered many Palestinians not to mention terrorizing them in various ways. You know nothing about them if you don’t know this. They are not benign individuals.
I can’t tell you how tired I am of “moral equivalence” arguments: “you can’t expect Jews to do X if Arabs aren’t doing it;” or vice versa. My moral and political beliefs don’t depend on whether they echoed by the other side. They are not relative. They are basic & fundamental.
I’m not interested in whether you accept the problem I have with this term. If you use it here; if you justify it here; if you even imply that any Jew commenting at this blog is “self-hating” you will not publish comments here again.
First, the comments name is “Guess,” not “Guest.” At least get that right. Second, you’re not publishing your comment in a thread that contains a comment by Guess making it hard for anyone to know what you’re referring to. Third, I don’t recall Guess saying that killing gays was legal or moral. I recall him saying that homosexuality violated the norms of Islam and that therefore westerners should not be surprised if gays are not fully accepted into Muslim societies. That is far different than what you claim he said. Fourth, no one here claims that Islam is correct in this view of homosexuality. I do not accept such a view here and I sympathize with those gays who are trying to change social norms in Muslim lands.
But unlike you, I try not to condemn other religions in a supercilious or condescending manner. I try not to be judgmental or superior in my cultural attitudes as you come across.
I find flaming by using capital letters to be offensive. Don’t do it here. Why don’t you focus on expressing yr own opinions w/o blaming others for not doing what you want them to? Everyone is a free agent here. Don’t attempt to cast blame or aspersion on anyone for not sharing your views or actions.
The fact that you are promoting this anti-Muslim ideologue gives away yr own political perspective. Darwish is certainly a hater of Islam. You are ignorant for not knowing this.
I detest this type of goading question & assumption of moral superiority.
I resent this type of straw man argument. I resent the hectoring of this statement. I havent’ countenanced this perspective & I object to yr. claiming that I have.
What Rykart wrote was neither “evil” nor “gloating.” You are wearing blinders as far as Israel is concerned. The least criticism gets you up on yr high horse. You don’t understand that criticism is legitimate even necessary for Israel to find the right political path.
I don’t need to do anything. You need to chill out, get down off yr high horse & stop browbeating anyone who doesn’t see Israel as you do.
This is a ridiculous comment & full of hyperbole, & unnecessary hyperbole at that. All Israeli Jews are NOT stupid & Roth is stupid for saying so. But I do understand the frustration & anger he feels at Israel for its pigheaded policies. They don’t work. They make things far worse than they otherwise would be. Solutions appear simple, yet Israel refuses to embrace them. I sometimes feel as low as Roth did when he wrote this. But I would never throw the baby out w. the bath water as he has.
I am disappointed that you are promoting Radio Islam and not calling Rykert on it. Radio Islam is overtly anti-Semitic, replete with old themes of Jewish world domination, calls for the destruction of Israel, and Holocaust denial. I take your failure to call Rykert on this as your endorsement of Radio Islam
First, I am not promoting Radio Islam. Rykert did. Because someone writing a comment publishes a link doesn’t mean I support what they’ve quoted. Second, that Philip Roth quote is available numerous placed on the web. If he didn’t quote it from Radio Islam he could’ve quoted it fr. 2 other sources.
And if you again make the snarky statement that my not denouncing something or someone means I endorse them you’ll be shown the door. I don’t need that sort of nastiness.
Sorry Fay, you’re being dishonest. i didn’t endorse radioislam and neither know nor care what their agenda may be. That is irrelevant to the link i presented by a JEWISH scholar, a survivor of the Holocaust, a lifelong resident and professor in israel, an authority on jewish religious sources (as well as the archeology of the region), a founder of the Israeli Human Rights Center and lifelong advocate for human rights, whose work has been lavishly praised by other Jews and whose accuracy of research you are 100% impotent to discount.
I’d like to declare your pathetic effort at obfuscation “clever” but even that would be an exaggeration. You’re just a pro-Israel mud slinger.
Here’s more on Shahak from the “anti-semitic’ MIT newspaper:
http://www-tech.mit.edu/V114/N55/chomsky.55n.html
So who do you imagine you’re fooling with your increasingly hollow claims of anti-Semitism? Have you no shame whatsoever?
If I wanted to make a case against Israel (& I don’t) I think I’d try to use a diff. source than Israel Shahak. He has about as much relevance to Israeli politics as David Duke or Ramsey Clark do to U.S. politics.
Interesting. Who WOULD you use to make a case against Israel, since you discount (without a scrap of evidence) Israel Shahak’s writings? Aren’t you simply saying that you reject the case against Israel no matter who makes it, no matter how persuasive, how heavily butressed with current and historical facts, etc? You reject Finkelstein’s conclusions as well, and would happily associate him with David Duke, ignoring (for convenience sake) the fact that his scholarship and his conclusions are heartily endorsed by the most authoritative historian of the holocaust on the face of the earth, Raul Hilberg, (not to mention other noted scholars from Oxford, Harvard, Hebrew University, MIT, etc) This is the very tactic Mr. Dershowitz and Co. use with increasing desperation. Is Alan Dershowitz, (a lying clod who can’t be bothered to write his own books), “relevant” to the Israel-Palestine debate simply by virtue of being a loud-mouthed OJ Simpson defense attorney? Where does “relevancy” on these matters come from in your opinion? Shahak, a serious scholar writes a serious book based on Hebrew sources and you dismiss him as irrelevant and cast him in with David Duke. Is this a case of not listening to a message you don’t care for? It certainly sounds like it.
If you read this blog closely you will find hundreds of Israeli sources who make a case for criticizing Israel & its policies when this is warranted.
Israel Shahak is not a credible political figure within Israel. He is at best marginal. I do not dismiss him entirely. He did much important work in the field of human rights. But he was viewed by 98% of the Israeli public (that is, any Israeli who knew who he was which was very few) as an extreme figure.
And pls. don’t go into hyper-overdrive & get on yr high horse about what I do or don’t believe about Israel. I don’t like moralizing or condesenscion whether it comes at me from ultra-Zionists or anti-Zionists.
Where do you get that? You must be confusing me w. someone else. I don’t recall ever mentioning them in the same sentence, let alone associating them together. I don’t reject Finkelstein’s conclusions about the Holocaust. But I do reject Finkelstein’s anti-Zionism. This isn’t a twofer where you have to buy one to get the other.
The David Duke analogy to Shahak was too extreme I concede since Shahak’s analysis is much more serious. But the Ramsey Clark analogy is totally apt. Ramsey Clark has a reputation of being a highly moral political figure (at least to those of us on the left), a man of conscience. But how much influence does he have on anyone or anything in U.S. politics??
Would you say Amira Hass is more relevant than Shahak was? She is also reviled by 98% of israelis and simply ignored by the rest. Is Ilian Pappe irrelevant? Maybe now that the overwhelming majority of Israeli society—a shockingly racist society at its foundation–have hounded him out of the country, he is irrelevant. Is Jimmy Carter irrelevant because the spineless democrats claim he’s irrelevant, have insisted Carter “doesn’t speak for us” and reject his characterization of israel’s brutal system as apartheid?
Why not declare the two-state settlement “irrelevant?” Certainly one could be tempted to do so since we are further from it than at any other time and the israelis have steadfastly rejected it for 40 years!
I have a different view of relevancy. I believe if someone is honest, careful in their research, and is supported by facts, they are relevant, no matter how many or few have the courage to endorse what they are saying or bring it to a wider audience. In the septic tank known as America, those who subscribe to evolution can be dismissed as “irrelevant” ..they are a tiny minority, have no standing and are effectively barred from political office. On the contrary—the majority are usually irrelevant, at least in terms of having anything intelligent or worthwhile to say.
As to zionism, one can obviously be for or against it but the evidence today that ethnic cleansing was a planned and essential component of the zionist agenda, indispensable to the formation of a Jewish state in Palestine is overwhelming. I just don’t think that it’s possible to deny it, so instead the matter is deemed (by many) irrelevant. It’s hardly irrelevant to the Palestinians and of course, the consistent zionist enterprise of ridding the land of its Arab inhabitants continues apace. Benny Morris is a zionist. He believes the formation of the Israeli state was a good thing and that its existence justifies the means that have been used to achieve it, specifically, the displacement and dispossession of the Palestinian people. That’s an honest viewpoint. You may find it (as I do) repulsive and racist but it is honest. To characterize the displacement and brutalization of the palestinians as somehow anathema to zionism just doesn’t cut it. The architects of the jewish state spoke of these plans on record and at great length. I just don’t see any persistent ambiguity on the matter, though of course, these facts create a moral dilemma (to put it mildly) for those still claiming to be zionists.
Smalll wonder Desmond Tutu, when asked, said yes…zionism is racism. So why do so many Jews feel duty bound to defend it? This has hardly been our shining hour. I think Jews redeem their good name in the world by categorically rejecting this ideology and this xenophobic program, which has destroyed an awful lot of lives.
Should we apply Shahak to the Palestinian past?
Most Palestinians would not enjoy his historicism.
=================================
It is wrong to smear all Israel -based on one Shahak – as a racist society.
It is wrong to smear all Israel – based on one Carter – as an apartheid.
I like Carter, he is a very decent person,and he want to help both sides.
=================================
The Likud/Gush Emunim line can be called extremist.
Even so, there are many decent people in the Likud and Gush Emunim.
Just not smart enough to quit.
The same is true for the Fatah and Hamas. It is a collection of very extremist leaders.
The members are clueless, and feel they have to follow somebody.
==================================
We have to agree that both societies need a secular majority for a secular democracy.
Yeshiva student or Muslim Madras graduates can not lead a secular democracy.
===================================
Both people must distance themselves from the past religious trends and quickly modernize.
===================================
The Jewish past has not produced very much until Jews could study in the best European university.
===================================
Interestingly, the dummy Christian Europe started the universities of Heidelberg, Freiburg, Tubingen, Moscow, St.Petersburg, Amsterdam, Paris, Brno, Milan……..and from theology, advanced science developed.
===================================
Nobody in the Bretslav or Lithuanian yeshivot has made one single discovery in science. They were a cemetery for scientific thinking.
Rykart has interesting allies in his promotion of Israel Shahak. Shahaks works are promoted by the online catalog of Noontide Press, publishing arm of the American “revisionist” Holocaust-deniers, offer Shahak’s work for sale with the following description:
This stunning, powerful work, with a foreword by Gore Vidal, is essential reading for anyone interested in the eternally vexing “Jewish question.” Drawing on a masterly study of the Jewish Talmud and rabbinical laws, Shahak brilliantly traces the long Jewish record of vicious hostility toward non-Jews, and particularly against Christianity. He reveals the destructive role Jews have played throughout history on behalf of tyrannical rulers. Written by a Polish-born Jew and “Holocaust survivor” who spent his childhood in the wartime Warsaw ghetto and the Belsen concentration camp. After moving to Palestine in 1945, he worked for years as a Professor of Organic Chemistry. MIT professor Noam Chomsky calls Shahak “an outstanding scholar, with remarkable insight and depth of knowledge,” and praises his work as “informed and penetrating, a contribution of great value.” Deeply probing the roots of Jewish chauvinism and arrogant hostility toward non-Jews, Shahak shows how Jews are encouraged to regard non-Jews as spiritually and morally unclean subhumans. As a result, warns Shahak, “Israel as a Jewish state constitutes a danger not only to itself and its inhabitants, but all Jews, and to all other peoples and states in the Middle East and beyond.”
Rykart, Noontide Press, and Radio Islam-you can judge a fellow by whom he associates with.
All the more reason for readers of this blog to mount a concerted effort to take radioislam off the air
Equating israel’s brutal system with South African apartheid is today, about as tepid and UN-controvertial as you can get, (the hysteria over Carter’s book, notwithstanding). Israel’s Center for Human Rights, Bt’selem has made the comparison often and forcefully, (recently in their detailed study of the Jews-only road system.) Ha’aretz talks about apartheid conditions regularly and in considerable detail. Further, South African authorities on apartheid including Mandella and Tutu say Israel’s apartheid system is considerably worse than the one they experienced in South Africa, a sentiment echoed recently with equal vehemence by Ronnie Kasrils, a prominant Jewish anti-apartheid leader:
http://last-straw.net/2005/10/israel-far-worse-than-apartheid-south-africa/
Again, the fact that Israel has enacted a brutal form of apartheid against its Palestinian victims is simply not a controvertial point among informed people. If this is the case, and moreover, the situation is acquiesced to if not openly supported by a majority of Israel’s citizens then I think it’s fair to say we are dealing with a racist society. We’re not going to eliminate this ugly virus by ignoring its existence.
Melvin attempts the usual guilt by association tactics, though I think they backfire when the likes of Gore Vidal and Noam Chomsky are invoked. I’d be proud to keep company with men of this caliber. (I’d ask what sort of individuals Melvin finds inspiring or looks up to, though I’m somewhat afraid to hear the answer).
Say what? Those who subscribe to evolution are “a tiny minority?” What are you smokin’? “Barred from political office?” What planet are you living on? You leave me speechless. I understand that the majority of Americans may be stupid enough to prefer to deny the principles of evolution. But you’ll have to do better than merely stating supporters of evolution are a tiny minority. Try providing a reputable poll.
You know, what cuts it or doesn’t cut it for you interests me very little. If you find my version of progressive Zionism worthy of disdain or repudiation that’s your prerogative. But I’d really rather you go elsewhere to shout yr slogans. I want to engage w. people who are willing to debate the issues without sloganeering or sneering. No doubt, there is strong evidence that Israel expelled up to 700,000 Arabs in 1948. No doubt, Israel has mistreated its Arab minority. No doubt these were and are heinous acts. No doubt, Israel must change in order to embrace its minority & become a true democracy.
I’m quite uninterested in what you think on this issue and what you feel Jews must do to redeem their good name. It’s the height of chutzpah for you to get on yr high horse & tell us how to proceed on these issues.
News flash! Palestinian society is just as racist as Israeli society. Only you are shocked at the racism of Israeli society. Many of us know about it. But unlike you, we do not call for the disintegration or extermination of Israel. I find yr brand of holier than thou anti-Zionism to be completely uncompelling and tiresome. You trumpet revelations as if you’re the first and only individuals to ever think them; as if many Israelis & progressive don’t already know about these problems and, unlike you, do their best to turn Israel toward a democratic non-racist direction.
The diff. bet. us is that you’ve long given up on Israel & the rest of us haven’t & won’t.
Well said Richard: “News flash! Palestinian society is just as racist as Israeli society. Only you are shocked at the racism of Israeli society. Many of us know about it. But unlike you, we do not call for the disintegration or extermination of Israel. I find yr brand of holier than thou anti-Zionism to be completely uncompelling and tiresome. You trumpet revelations as if you’re the first and only individuals to ever think them; as if many Israelis & progressive don’t already know about these problems and, unlike you, do their best to turn Israel toward a democratic non-racist direction.”
The Palestinians will get out of the mess when they get a decent leader displaying uncorrupted integrity, and reject all assistance from the Iranian junta .
“Progressive Zionism” ?
Is that what you call taking pot shots at irrelevant and illiterate targets like Massada2000 while ever-so-gently urging Israel to modify its nauseating 60 year reign of terror in the region, (when and if they happen to get around to it? )
Well then, I guess I’m just not a progressive.
…can’t please everyone.
What you are is an insufferable holier than thou moralist-boor. Heaven protect us fr. the likes of you.
And as you called me a racist in yr last comment which will not be published here your comments will be moderated in future.
Update: And your most recent reply to this comment shows you to be an insufferable twit. That earns you banning from the site.
Good that Rykart is banned. But there are the Qumsiyehs, and the http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/israel/index.html
referred to Saifedean Ammous who sounds like Rykart.
The Palestinians are suffering.
The Israelis are losing people.
A careful modification is needed.
The Rykarts on both sides are irresponsible. Nice propositions are attacked because these people are compromising.
The Israeli stand must include the option of a major compromise with the Palestinians.
Many Palestinians are not learning from the past, and they are accepting this twisted assistance from Iran, against the better interest of the Palestinians.
All Palestinians must reject the Iranian junta’s interference.
All Israelis must reject the Merkaz Rav extremism. Biblical references to Zionism are wrong.
Jews had recurring major problems in Europe and Asia. Emigration was the only solution, and Israel is a the safe haven.
The Palestinians have to accept this historical development.
If the problem is discussed honestly, both people may develop a sympathy for each other.
This will be a secular exercise.
I see the Masada 2000 site is up again,
Mary Hughes: Yes, Bluehost may be owned by Mormons, but they apparently don’t run their business with any concern for either Mormon values or their own terms of services which explicitly ban a huge amount of the repugnant material found at the site.
The site owner has now violated copyrights on my images twice & Bluehost has just taken down the 2nd set of infringing images. But the host doesn’t have any compunction about accepting revenue from virulent Kahanists (wonder what Kahanists think of Mormons?).
I’ve been meaning to write a post about Bluehost’s actions in this case. Maybe I will now.
There are two basic ways to approach reality:
1. as WHAT IS and
2. as WHAT SHOULD BE
The “leftists”, the “rightists” are concerned with what should be.
However really only WHAT IS matters:
Palestinians hate Jews. Arabs hate Jews and the huge overwhelming majority of Muslims hate Jews. No, it is not nice. I also don’t like it, I, too would like if it was different, but the fact remains.
Additionally big portion of Europeans hold negative opinions about the Jews. In Eastern Europe anti-Semitism is still very virulent. In the West European countries anti-Semitism is boiling among the Muslims who are supported by the local leftists. Again, this is not what should be, not what I would like it to be, it is just what is. It is true that among the non-Muslims of Western Europe and the USA majority is only moderately anti-Semitic. There are of course some people who are not at all anti-Semitic, however such individuals are relatively rare, as the very word “Jew” has a negative connotation in every Western language. In English “He is a Jew” means “He is cheap”. To “Jew someone down” meant to force someone to sell at lower price, etc. In other languages the anti-Semitic connotations are much stronger.
So all this is reality, the WHAT IS. It should not be, but it is.
Now, all existing countries came to be by violence, in most cases associated with either extermination, expulsion and/or forcible assimilation of previous populations. This same mentality still prevails today. Again, this should not be, but IT IS.
Jews have been persecuted for 2000 years and have learned to thing about what should be and now they are facing a difficult situation. The only way to be equal to other nations is by having their own country. Yet, the only way to have a country is by violence. This applies to all countries.
Polish people relish the story of their hero King Wladislaw Loketek. who ethnically cleansed Poland from the Germans in the 13th Century. Czechs (Bohemians) ethnically cleansed Germans out of the Sudetenland. Greeks cleansed Greece of the Turks, the list goes on and on. Now all of these people are condemning Jews for wanting to have their own country. Of course it should not be so: In a better world, nobody should be bothered if someone is a Jew, or an Arab. In a better world there should not be any need for ethnic cleansing. However the better world exist only in the imagination of the “self-hating Jews”. And the poor idealistic, “self-hating-Jews” are setting themselves up for yet another holocaust, or another series of pogroms. Of course this should not be so, but unfortunately this is how it is.
So while I totally agree with the great dream of a better humanity, the reality is that unless Jews wake up and realize that they are living in the real world, not in the better world, they will again be persecuted, and this time they well may well perish forever.
And the paradox is that while everybody is telling Jews not to be strong and not to pursue nationalistic policies, when Jews do just that, strangely everybody respects them. Even the anti-Semites begun respecting Jews after they won the big victory in 1967. The very word “Jew” became less offensive. It became less associated with “weak”, and “coward”.
All Jews benefited from creation of Israel, and from the Israeli victories.
In the end, even the Palestinians suffering will end if the Israelis produced a major victory and thus ended the conflict. And yes, in the real world, (not in the better world but in the real one), peace is established by major victory of one party over the other, not through some “peace process”.
You trumpet yr clear-eyed view of “what is,” which is no more “what is” than any right or left view of reality. Your views are warmed over Islamophobia and have absolutely NO connection to reality. But hey, welcome to your world. If it makes you feel good to display such ignorance go right ahead be our guest.
israel shahak was nothing but an attention-seeker or a madman. in his books he says things about jews which are simply untrue and feed into the worst kind of antisemitic prejudice