The militant Zionist who called himself “Neil Pomper” (possibly Rachel Neuwirth?) may regret bringing to my attention my very own listing in the Masada2000 S.H.I.T. list. He (or “she”) thought he was giving me “payback” for having criticized Rachel Neuwirth’s abusive behavior toward Jewish peacemakers. I’d heard of the site but never really looked at it. When I DID look at it at “Neil’s” urging I was so aghast I started thinking what, if anything, might be done to fight back against the slime-filled attacks on Jewish “traitors” and “fifth columnists” like me and 7,000 others featured there.
I did some research and discovered that the site is hosted by Bsinet.net. A quick call and e-mail to them pointing out some of the more egregious examples of the site’s abuse of its victims seems to have persuaded the company to take the site down. I think we all owe a debt of gratitude to Bsinet for understanding how damaging this material was and seeing what it’s duty was. I don’t know if it’s down for good (at least at Bsinet) or whether this is temporary. Of course, in this day and age if one host doesn’t want you there are thousands more who will. So unfortunately it won’t be that hard to migrate to a new host. But doing even this small bit to defend ourselves against the slime machine is worthwhile. I appreciated this message of encouragement from Helena Cobban, who wrote a terrific 2005 post on the site and its penchant for pornographic abuse:
Thanks so much for being a great citizen and following up on this issue of trying to stop the dissemination of open incitement to hatred and sexual violence!!
If anyone has a Masada2000 siting in the future please let me know. Also, if you can provide any specific information about the owners of this site I’d be grateful. Sunshine cast upon the dark nether spaces is always therapeutic.
And “Neil,” maybe next time you’ll just keep your big mouth shut?!
Eat shit you fucking cunt!!!!! Masada 2000 rules. You suck Islamic cocks. You are a pice of shit and a prick. Die motherfucker. You pric and slut and whore. I spit on you
My my, FR, you seem to be having a bad day. Please remember to take your meds, OK. Cheers.
I guess the Kahanists are “onto” me. I’m of two minds on whether or not to allow the above comment to be displayed at this site. Part of me believes that it should remain to show everyone the vile hate-spewing of which these twisted souls are capable.
We all owe you a debt of gratitude Richard.
Eliminating hate no matter where it comes from honors those millions who died in the Holocaust as victims of hate.
Religious extremism, whether it’s Jewish, Islamic, Christian, Hindu, Sikh, etc., uses hate to further it’s aims.
To provide a hit list of people is an incitement to violence and harassment founded in hate and I believe would be illegal in any country, including the US with it’s strong constitutionally protected free speech rights.
I enjoy your web site and while I don’t agree with all of your assessments I do believe that you are honest.
Thank you, and keep up the great work.
Know that you are appreciated and respected.
“If we don’t believe in freedom of expression for
people we despise, we don’t believe in it at all.”
-Noam Chomsky
By censoring masada2000, it’s opponents have denied the very principles of free speech and expression that are the foundation of a democratic society.
It’s illegal to incite violence against people you don’t agree with.
Starting a “hit list” of enemies amounts to inciting such violence and harassment.
That is one of the limitations of constitutionally protected free speech.
You can’t yell “Fire” in a movie theater.
Now isn’t that convenient. You drag out Noam Chomsky to try to make me feel as if I’ve violated some precept of left wing discourse.
First, you should bother to read the comment thread here. I didn’t censor anyone. I merely suggested that the webhost review the site’s content. The company decided the material violated their terms of service. If anyone violated their freedom of expression it was the webhost. THough how you can make the argument that a webhost doesn’t have the right to refuse service to someone using their servers is beyond me.
And just for the heck of it–do you have the right to say on your webhost that women you don’t like should be “reamed?” How would you feel if you wife or sister was the victim of such “discourse?”
Hi richard
I must say, I’m a bit disappointed massada2000 was taken down. It was a great site to point people to whenever the familiar diatribes regarding “those savage, hate-filled Arabs” came up. I had no objection to massada’s “SHIT LIST” which read something like a Who’s Who of important Jewish writers, poets, intellectuals, novelists, journalists, etc. The “List” revealed the virulently pro-Israel crowd for what they are..halfwits and thugs.
..just my opinion..
r: Well, I’d rather have it available as a historical artifact through something like the Wayback Machine. However, if you really want it around it’s possible the owner will move it to a new host & open for business again. And besides, there are plenty of other hate-filled anti-Arab sites on line. Just take a look at Rachel Neuwirth’s Mideast Solutions or any of the Kahanist sites (JTF.org) which are still kicking around.
“If we don’t believe in freedom of expression for
people we despise, we don’t believe in it at all.”
-Noam Chomsky
I appreciate your reply, the problem is that you never addressed the actual quote that I posted. Do you agree with Noam Chomsky or not? This is really what is at the root of the conflict.
Dear Mr (Dr.?) Silverstein,
I agree with the concept that nobody ever should be singled out for anti-gay or gender based (or ANY kind of) violence. If what you posted is the case, then these writers need to learn how to subliminate their anger and express their disagreement in ways that reflect an understanding and appreciation of the facts. Going with one’s rage and engaging in rampant name calling or prejudice towards others for who they are, without reason, just makes us regressed adolescents who, surly as we may feel, never learned that it’s not what you say, but how you say it. Everyone’s entitled to feel anger, rage, etc, but acting on it unabsahedly is an entirely different matter.
That being said, I have been very disappointed by the liberal Jewish community’s response vis-a-vis our support of Israel. We almost never draw attention to Muslim fanatacism and the danger that Muslim fanatacism and all religious fanatacism poses to Jews and all religious minorities everywhere (like the Bah’ai for instance). We seem to be entirely too comfortable attacking other Jews who stand up for Israel and with whom we disagree. There is nothing heroic about being a self-hating, indignant and poorly informed Jew. Having grown up in the atmosphere of liberal Judaism, I found myself in my young adult life being ‘pro-palestinian,’ and yet completely ignorant of the double bind that Israeli citizens and their leaders are forced to deal with on a daily basis. In my life, as I encountered increasing amounts of anti-Semitism , I became more informed about Jewish identity, the fact that Zionism is absolutely NOT racism as contended by some, and that Jewish freedom and Israeli existence are not, and probably never will be, independent variables.
On an important side note, I have an Italian Catholic last name and so would be privy to comments that were directed towards Jews in which the anti-Semitic speaker felt ‘safe’ because he/she was thought they were in apparently Christian/Muslim only company. ) This has happened to me in every social circle you can imagine from Christian to Jewish, heterosexual or gay, Black, Hispanic, female, male, etc.
At this point in my life when I see Jews wearing Kafiyas (sp?), I must admit I want to go up to them and ask them whether they realize that they are wearing a symbol of state-sponsored terrorism and that their intellectual ‘position,’ is most likely meaningless to the majority of people who belong to the culture behind the symbol they proudly wear. As a former liberal Jew myself, I imagine wanting to shake them from their self-righteous arrogance and ignorant equivocation of Zionism with American racism when the two ideas are completely different; the former created in the hopes of a life led beyond from the daily terror and random violence of The Pale, and the other based on keeping a group of individuals down (or worse) for profit and personal gain. Thank you
Justice (both here in American & in other jurisdictions) determines that there are legal limits to freedom of expression. Do I have the right to yell “Fire!” in a crowded theater when there is none? No. Do the owners of Masada2000 have the right to advocate that women be raped? I don’t think so nor does Bsinet.
Do the owners of Masada2000 have the right to advocate views I despise? Do they have the right to advocate forced transfer of Arabs? Do they have the right to accuse Jews of being traitors and saying they should be tried for crimes against humanity? Yes, in fact Rachel Neuwirth does this at her site. I find her views odious but they do not advocate physically harming specific individuals as Masada2000 does. That’s the difference.
I am not a follower of Chomsky nor do I agree with everything–& perhaps even most of what–he says. I hope you’re not one of these tiresome people who thinks I’m a follower of Chomsky & that you’re going to “trip me up” by having me disagree with him & then point out the inconsistency.
I disagree with you, John, on several counts. First, liberal Jews are entirely aware of Muslim fanaticism. How can you miss it in this post-9//11 world. The difference betw. us is that you seem to posit an eternal enmity bet. Islam and Judaism & I don’t. Second, you seem to ignore the fact that there is deep Jewish fanaticism that poses a great danger to Arabs living in the Territories & within Israel itself.
If you are calling me or any other person commenting at this blog any of those ridiculous names then our conversation is concluded. I do not hate myself or Judaism. I am certainly better informed and educated than you or any of my critics about my Jewish tradition. And yes, I am indignant at the types of terms you use.
Kaffiyehs “symbols of state-sponsored terrorism???” What are you on about? That’s a ridiculous piece of propaganda signifying nothing.
If Zionism can posit the existence of another people sharing the land and maintaining its own independent state alongside Israel, then it is not racist. But if your Zionism posits the subjugation of another people & permanent Occupation, then it is racist. My Zionism is not racist. Is yours?
Jewishness & Israel are NOT synonymous. They are related. But you make a mistake if you conflate them. We lived for over 1,000 years without our homeland and got along quite well thank you. I am happy there is a state of Israel. But my Jewish identity is not dependent on Israel for its existence. Is yours?
I am beginning to see the modus operandi on this blog. Whenever anyone, either liberal or conservative, serves the purpose of propping up your particular view-point on a topic you
support them. When they do not, you reject them outright, and don’t seem willing or able to refute them in a meaningful way. I can accept the fact that you choose to label me as a tiresome person for posing a question that you cannot answer without appearing hypocritical. Thats your prerogative. I hope you can accept my observation that by the way you side step ditrect questions that demand thorough answers you seem to be a self serving myopic individual.
I commend you on at least allowing me to post here. Having said that,this will be my last posting; I don’t care to waste any more of our time beating a dead horse.
I will continue to support Israel and those particular Jewish people that have proven that they have the backbone and intelligence to recognize who their friends are and who the real enemies of the Jewish people are.
Shalom u’vracha.
I must say I agree with Dean completely. I admit I would not have the stomach to run any blog that was controversial. You need a tough skin whose membrane never ruptures. I admit I’m not of that kind of mettle
My professional and personal life have been almost dystroyed by Masada2000.org.
What people do not realize is that the creators of the site do not check their facts and often post libel and defaming information — lies. The s.h.i.t list was not created to inform, but to defame, and there is a difference. This is not a free speech issue, and the site needed to come down. You cannot tell print lies about people and pass them off as fact — this is against the law. Masada2000.org would have, eventually, faced legal action.
As an American/ Israeli citizen and peace and coexistence activist, I stand by my work, and all the actions I have participated in, proudly. But Masada2000 decided it was ok to go beyond simply posting my activism work, and said that my children were born out of wedlock, along with a half a dozen other personal lies — These lies have really hurt my efforts to find work, be part of the Jewish community in my area, and even date!
I am sorry I cannot post my real name here, but I am afraid of more internet defamation. I just wanted to say thank you for whatever part you played in getting this filthy, racist site removed.
Todah Rabbah
You may be speaking about libel here which may be a diff. story. If one is a public figure then you certainly cannot knowingly state a lie about them in print. But if one is not a public figure I’m not sure this applies. One could argue that Masada2000 turned you into a public figure by featuring you on the SHIT list. It’s all very complicated I’m afraid.
At any rate, I’m sorry for the pain & injury you have suffered. This only reinforces to me the value of monitoring these sites both for content & potential violation of webhost TOS or even the law.
umm freedom of speech? ever heard of that?
out of all the websites to complain about..
I was always so fascinated by how Jews are willing to take down their own.
Jews dont need enemies, you will destroy each other. Unfortunately
Asked & answered, my friend. I’ve already covered this subject above. It has nothing to do w. freedom of speech. Webhosts are perfectly entitled to determine their terms of service. You violate them & you’re toast. Masada2000 violated those TOS in spades & the host decided to take the site down. I only pointed out to them what their client was publishing.
Apparently you don’t see calling for the rape of Jewish women an attempt to “destroy” them. It’s only “poor Masada2000.” What about the 7,000 Jews defamed there? They have no rights or recourse, right?
If you’re Jewish, you’re pathetic & if you’re not go suck eggs.
Richard,
It’s unfortunate that you would ‘rat’ on a website just because you don’t like what they have to say. I’m not going to cite BS from Noam Chumpsky to get my point across. I will however point to Voltaire who said “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”. I personally don’t frequent Masada2000 but do believe their message targets the Muslims who loathe us and those self-haters who support them. It’s obvious that your sell-out cowardice position of the Islamic threat put you and others like you on their list. Instead of defending your position by using your freedom of expression and speech, you mute them. Why don’t you try to shut down Islamic hate sites? There are so many to choose from. Let me answer my own question to you, you’re afraid! Instead, you side with them and force yourself to believe Jews could make peace with them through dialogue and self hatred. The bully takes your lunch money and you not only give it to them, you dime out all your friends on the school yard who have lunch money and help the bully rip them off too.
You wrote “there are plenty of other hate-filled anti-Arab sites on line. Just take a look at Rachel Neuwirth’s Mideast Solutions or any of the Kahanist sites (JTF.org) which are still kicking around.”
Well, we are a Kahanist organization. The Rav is our inspiration and we know he was right. It’s public knowledge that the B’nai Elim and JTF, both Kahanist organizations, do not get along. But as much as we disagree on some issues, we will be the first to defend the JTF if someone like you attempts to mute them using your cyber-terrorist tactics. There is a post above where the writer uses a handle with foul language and threatens to spit on you. You allow that idiot to post but ‘rat’ out someone else and have their site shut down. I don’t understand that. As far as the B’nai Elim goes, we’re out to take the bully’s wallet.
I’m not Voltaire, & even Voltaire may never have seen the likes of Masada2000. Further, the day when my site is under attack and threatened with removal & YOU come to my defense would be the day I’d consider doing the same on behalf of Masada2000.
The problem w. opening yr mouth before you know what you’re talking about is that you’re often shown to be a fool. One of the commenters on one of my many posts about Kahanists over the past few months asked for help in taking down Radio Islam, which I fully agree w. him was a despicable site. I offered what suggestions I could to help him in his effort. What do you say now?
No Arab has ever taken my “lunch money” whatever that is supposed to mean. I’d be as afraid that you’d steal it as someone fr. Hamas would.
Another ludicrous statement showing you don’t bother to read people before you attack them. I made a pt. of saying that while JTF’s forum is unbelievably disgusting you can’t get people’s website shut down merely because they’re assholes (which the JTF forum members clearly are). So who’s trying to get their site taken down? And calling me a “cyber-terrorist” is rich indeed.
I published but a single one of the most despicable of many commments about me which other Kahanists attemptted to publish here. That single comment was meant as an example so that my readers could see what type of beast I’ve roused. I’ve refused to publish another 20. I don’t believe in the freedom to spit on me here in this blog (though I have published yours & you’ve done quite a bit of spitting). I do believe in allowing idiots to show their idiocy and their true colors.
Yes, we would come to your defense even if we completely disagree with you as we would defend Mr. foulmouth Chaim ben Pesach of JTF.
(You said) One of the commenters on one of my many posts about Kahanists over the past few months asked for help in taking down Radio Islam, which I fully agree w. him was a despicable site. I offered what suggestions I could to help him in his effort. What do you say?
Well Richard, I say offering suggestions isn’t the same as shutting it down. You didn’t suggest shutting down Massada2000, you did it.
(You said) No Arab has ever taken my “lunch money” whatever that is supposed to mean. I’d be as afraid that you’d steal it as someone fr. Hamas would.
I won’t take your lunch money. You’ll need it if Massada2000 tries to take you to court. Furthermore, stealing is a sin.
What makes me an idiot like you said in your post?
Do think you know me or my level of education?
Is it because I believe differently?
Or is it just because I think you would sell out your own people to make your enemies happy?
Ya’akov
First, I didn’t say you were an idiot & don’t believe you are. In the comment you’re referring to, the “idiot” was the first commenter in this thread.
I think saying this of a fellow Jew is pretty despicable. I’m not “selling” anyone out Jew or Arab. Such terms are odious.
Hi,
I was amazed to discover (by chance) that all this has… actually happened.
Some time ago, I felt appauled by some of the anti-Arab extremism in that Massada site, and even more appauled to find that… Woody Allen (among so many other famous progressive Jews) was included there as a “traitor of Israel”. I decided that the best policy to deal with their big problem was to send as polite letters of protest as possible. So… I actually sent them a decent humourous letter, protesting mildly against the black-listing of Woody Allen (etc). They responded politely, as a matter of fact! They even said they took my criticisms seriously and would try to remove Woody from their black list. A few days later, they wrote again, saying they wouldn’t in fact remove Woody, after all, from the black list, because he is a… pedophile (having married an extremely young lady, as we all know). Well, I concluded that these people must be a bit potty in the head, to say that; but more letters followed, this time polite propaganda letters about their site.
As a Greek, non-Jewish but definitely not anti-Jewish, I wrote them a letter on the basis that… they should not repeat Greek mistakes (fighting one another), and should not think wrongly (like some Greeks do) that Jewish people are a “divinely favoured people”. I did so with humour, politeness, and received their… praise for my articulate letter. This makes me wonder, if these people are in fact quite OK, not potty at all, but their minds have come to run the… wrong ideological software, apparently. They’ve been programmed to think in an extremist way.
I discovered the closing down of their site accidentally, during a web-search that followed a discussion in a Greek blog, where anti-racists (like me) tend to be quite numerous, fortunately. This does not mean we support the evils suffered by Palestinians. We are both against antisemitism AND against racism against the Palestinians. As regards the latter, if you remember, the Massada site was SO outrageously racist against Arabs and Palestinians that not even the worst antisemites would dare speak about Jews in such bad terms (literally talking about “Arab meat” and so on…)
Evidently, was is costly and it also leads nowhere. So (while not being sure about censorship being a good idea in this case) I congratulate you for your open-minded resistance against the extremist Massada site.
Shalom (from a non-Jew)
George
Sorry, small typing mistake, My last paragraph should read “War is costly and it also leads nowhere”.
Mr. Silverstein,
Having read what other people have been saying in your blog, and also having noticed the tragic situation of defamation practiced in a wide variety of other blogs, sites, etc…. Isn’t it ultimately inevitable that some kind of legal action must be taken against (at least serious) defamation in the Internet?
Surely this is THE problem of our time, as regards the Internet!
Why don’t we unite in our efforts to remove or mitigate this problem, more? We suffer it, you suffer it, everybody has come across it, in one way or another. How long will it go on? How can people not see your point?
My responses to your critics are simply, that because of the dreadful absence of any serious legal procedure etc. censorship by private web-hosting providers tends to become more powerful than state-censorship or other forms of legal action.
Do we want to live in a feudal society. where web-hosts become censors. or do we want an agreement and a constitution of rights for both free expression as well as the need to combat defamation?
These are open questions, Ya’akov. Serious questions. Global Questions.
Shalom again
George
Thanks for yr comments, Omadeon. But know that I didn’t engage in censorship as I’ve noted above. Masada2000 had a webhost & they decided to take the site down. There are a thousand other options for this site if they truly want to spew their hate again.
I would like to have the money to pursue this abusive blogger vigorously. Unfortunately, I don’t have those means. That’s why I support blogger codes of civility being discussed at Wikipedia, the NY Times & elsewhere. That could help.
It is of no surprise that a Sabbatean such as Richard Silverstein should have a hand in shutting down a website which opposes his ultra-Left viewpoint.
Sadly, this is all too typical of those who share Mr. Silverstein’s radical agenda.
Goodbye, free speech. It was good to know ya!
Libel aside, Masada 2000 was indeed a great site for networking. I made lots of useful contacts from it and it even helped me raise money when I put on the World Premiere of the cantata for Rachel Corrie, ‘The Skies are Weeping’. Some Jewish peace activists who were not on there, felt put out!
But initially, I was concerned that the site might be dangerous for American Jews and myself, attempted to have it taken down, to no avail, so well done. I guess it’s ok for those of us in the UK where Zionists are less extreme. And fortunately, I no longer look like I did in the photo they used of me!
Deborah: Yes, in that sense it was good for progressives. He even had people’s e mail addresses up there so you could easily find any other progressive you wanted to contact but whose e mail address you might not have been able to come by.
What you did in your fundraising was make lemons out of lemonade & for that I salute you. I’m doing the same. Steven Plaut & Rachel Neuwirth, who are bosom buddies with the Masada2000 owners, created a mock site in my name at Blogger which defames me, to get revenge on me for getting the site taken down. I’m using their fakery in order to publicize what they’ve done in the media including the NY Times, Seattle Post Intelligencer & Computerworld, all of whom have written about my experience.
I trhink the closing of this site proves the fact that these radical Israelis are never going to win, and that the truth of Israels actions will be revealed.
As for Masada2000, i think that it deserves to be shut down, as it deliberately provoked racial and religious hatred towards the Palestinians and the Muslim world.
This is in response to “Guess.” I think the polemics of whether of not Masada 2000 should be up and running, or conversely, without a server and shut down, have been thoroughly discussed here with a full range of viewpoints having been posted by the blogger.
HOWEVER (Guess), stating that (generally put) “the truth of Israel’s actions will be revealed” ignores the obvious facts that Israel also DEFENDS itself against the terrorism perpetrated (or tacitly supported) by many Islamic republics and Arab nations. In many, if not all of these countries, all of us with dissident opinions would be arrested, beaten, have family members threatened, or have our own lives extinguished for daring to pose an opinion or a question different from the theocratic powers-at-be.
Just look at the book, “Reading Lolita in Tehran,” women afraid for lives to read; behaving as members of resistance, moving from place to place to avoid possible death; their crime: reading a novel!! Some other recent examples: the three gay men beheaded in a celebration I believe on New Years 2005/6 in Saudi Arabia; the persecution of the Bahai and the RAMPANT joyful (I’ve seen photos) destruction of their holy sites in Iran, the trial and brutal treatment of innocent Iranian Jewish men on the charge of ‘conspiring with Zionists (one was 12 years old boy) who were denied basic civil liberties (e.g.: a lawyer, a visitor, oversight by a human rights organization from the international community) while waiting for a trial that didn’t commence for 18 months post-incarceration, the round up of gay men from an Egyptian gay bar/resort who were photographed against their will and humiliated for the entire Egyptian populace to see on the front pages of their newspaper; their crime, being gay….I don’t think I need to continue with other examples of the Arab’s world denying basic civil rights to the majority of their populace, never mind innocent civilians of neighboring nations, such as Israel.
I consider myself to be a moderate and open minded person not interesting in persecuting anyone, BUT the lack of leadership on the American Jewish Left in condemning these humanitarian offenses in contrast to the ‘gung ho’ radicalized leadership in support of (or rationalization of) militant Islamic terrorists does put merit in an earlier writer’s comments about how Jews are afraid: handing money over to the bully, not speaking up, and even worse ‘diming out their friends.’
I’ve got news for you–you’re nothing of the sort. You’re an Islamophobe.
Of course those actions are reprehensible and are criticized on the left every day and in many blogs including this one. But unlike you I don’t look to Islam as the root of all evil in the world. I look for evil where I find it & call it out. Evil enters our world from many sources and intolerance can be found in virtually every religious tradition. Blaming a single one for the world’s problems is beyond foolishness.
The left doesn’t owe you or anyone an explanation or defense of our views on this subject. You’ll single out & hate Arabs & Muslims regardless of what anyone else could say to you.
Geez, Richard
Not only did I not call you names, but I gave lots of very real examples which I guess you deem ancillary (at best) to the greater good of not backing other Jews up. I am calling you on your bias as I see it period.
Furthermore, your assertion that:
The left doesn’t owe you (me) or anyone an explanation or defense of our views on this subject. You’ll single out & hate Arabs & Muslims regardless of what anyone else could say to you.
is ABSURD and YOU KNOW it. I have nothing against Muslims as individuals and have a great respect for the vast majority that I have encountered in my personal life.
This is clear: you do not like to address the double standards that are so glaringly offensive to free thinking people with more than 3 (functioning) neurons within their cerebrums. I’d like to add that you should follow your own proviso/protocol under the “Leave a comment” section. Calling me an “Islamophobe” is meaningless (not to mention ignorant) since you don’t know me and everything I wrote has complete basis in fact and could be checked out by a person on either end of the political spectrum.
By the way, where’s your response to “Guess.” This proves yet another writer’s comment to you that you (and those with your political slant, a clique I used to know too well) prefer to take down other Jews way way way before you approach a non-Jew in the same die hard, fight to the death manner, in which you will take on a Jewish person who thinks your position is biased, faulty, problematic, etc….
In my mind, Ann Coulter has her problems, but she has you guys nailed on not wanting to respond to legitimate criticism/argument. You don’t owe anyone anything, but you get to posit whatever you want without feeling the need to present a defense of your position or lack thereof. Personally, I don’t feel like I have that luxury when challenged on something I’ve said. Before you respond so defensively, you might actually try to think through some of the criticisms or arguments that different writers present on your blog.
BTW: Where are all of those criticisms you purportedly say the Left has written about on any of the things I previously mentioned in my other entry. You know the old adage, “hate is hate is hate.” The connection of state-sponsored and Arab-leadership inspired anti-Semitism to any of the other “isms” has yet to be described by anyone as far as I am aware (except perhaps in the Jerusalem Post) Since your breadth of knowledge clearly supercedes mine (by your age alone), please do share with us these links. I’d would enjoy reading all of these entries that you claim are out there.
You may condemn violence against women, religious minorities, and gay men, but you sure don’t condemn it with the vehemence that you would if that kind of disgusting behavior was happening on Israeli soil–which it ABSOLUTELY isnt, and if it is in isolated incidents, it isn’t STATE-SPONSORED, nationalized, and defended against with the impunity that the hanging of those two young gay teenagers in Iran a year or so ago. No one will respect your position unless you tow a straight line across the board on all issues. That’s Tikun Olam
It is very said [sic] that Islamic terrorists have their assistants like you. I hope that you will pay a grave price for your treason if not on this world in the next one. Ilan Pape, Norman “horoor movie caracter” “Igor” Finklestein [sic] are spreading stench of treason. Hashem give us strenth to fight our enemies and there [sic] puppets amoung us.
Only the Joe McCarthys, Joe Stalins and Meir Kahanes of this world look for traitors among their own brethren & talk about damning their souls or executing them before Nuremberg tribunals like yr. friend Rachel Neuwirth. You are one pathetic specimen of humankind.
It is an absolute disgrace to see such pathetic comments such as by John G. Does he not realise that Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam, hence, in an ISLAMIC country, which folows the Islamic Law, they are performing actions against the law of the country?
If we were to consider Israels crimes, we could go on forever. Mr. Sharon, has killed thousands of people ever since he was involved in the military etc. Have we forgotten the Jenin and Nablus massacre. Have we forgotten the ILLEGAL invasion of a neutral country, Lebannon. Have we forgotten just how mnay people they killed there? Have we forgottem the attempts by the Jews to demolish Al-Asa. Or how about the beach bombing, where a yopung girls family enjoying themseleves on the beach were blown to bits!
Have you not heard of Sabra and Shatila, where 2750 civilians were killed, children shot dead, women raped. Do you call this legal?? If you do, then you are subhuman.
If anyone says that the Muslim countries ae bad, for quite honestly, following their religion properly, then there is no word disgusting enough to describe the illegal state of “Israel”
But no, of course, Israel is so peaceful and democratic.
IS IT HELL!
Guess,
I don’t know why I’m even responding to you, but briefly: 1) anti-gay behavior in the form of violence is a crime in this country. Do you live here in the U.S.A.? If you do and think these despicable crimes are so great and just an example of Islamic countries implementing their ‘law,’ I suggest you move to any of the countries I mentioned in my previous post. My guess is that you, Guess, wouldn’t last too long in these “great” nations. According to the famous Pastor Niemoller, I’m confident that the “they” will “get to you too.”
Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. It is a country with its problems, largely caused by individuals who follow a political ideology similar to yours: break the law–die. Israel for all of its problems is a GREAT nation ‘guess.’
2) Why do you not address the other groups of people that are persecuted by the mullahs are their cronies: women stoned for reading a forbidden book–that’s against the law. I guess they should fear for their lives for engaging in that kind of behavior. That seems reasonable–in your f’ed up universe. Reading equals death. The Bahai having their sacred places of worship totally destroyed with wanton abandon–their crime, I’m not sure–BEING? And why do y ou go after the gay guys ‘guess’ is it because these are the least ‘important’ people on my list of Islamofascist victims?
3) The purposeful murder of children is never justified–ever–you got that Guess? Those teenagers who were hung, murdered for allegedly engaging in same sex activity who begged for their lives died because of people who think like you Guess (FYI: Arafat was very kissy with the guys dont you think–oh no that’s ‘cultural.’)
4) The innocent murder or contriving of charges which your ‘great’ nations have conspired to do against the Jewish people in their homelands has been nothing less that full fledged slaughter and ethnic cleansing. I would like for you to take this opportunity and to reflect on how the people you esteem have perpetrated, planned, and gone about things quite deliberately to murder and eliminate all signs of a Jewish presence in their countries.
As for only one of your comments involving the very recent past:
“Have we forgotten the ILLEGAL invasion of a neutral country, Lebanon.”
Guess, maybe you should telegram your friends at Hezbollah (and their Iranian and Syrian supporters) to stop firing missiles in legal Israeli civilian cities from the Lebanon border? I am sure Israel would be pleased to live peacely within what remains of its own confines without having subhuman garbage “terrorists” fire rockets into the homes of innocent Israeli people. I think these folks have enough Jewish blood on their hands.
I’m not sure many Israeli soldiers have been raping women and murdering children; that’s way more the style that is legally permitted in countries you exalt for following their theocratically-based law. The only exception to this might be if Israel’s brave soldiers were to be lucky enough to catch these ‘people–the women and children that is’ before they committed another attack on Israeli citizens through homicide bombing–THIS IS ILLEGAL ‘guess.’ Where is your concern for the terrorism sponsored by Radical Islam against ordinary Jewish civilians. It’s not bad enough that you folks are murdering and silencing people left and right within your own borders. Listening to you makes me sorry I didn’t take up Shaolin more seriously
By the way, ‘guess,’ I still haven’t seen one person’s response to your first statement–which I have to say, was markedly less disturbing than your most recent one–which tries to present history in a slanted perverse, altered bizarro universe kind of way.
Maybe you would like to explain John, why thousands of Lebanese were killed by the Israelis, wheras 300 or so Israelis died in the conflict. Perhaps you are gay yourself, but the Muslims are followng their religion in not allowing homosexuality. If it is forbidden in our religion, then in our countires, you do not do it. It’s just like murder or other crimes, if you do it, you get punished for it. Homosexuality is a sin in Islam, so it is not to be accepted. So stop acting for this ‘gay peace’ crap, and face the reality.
Also, i don’t know of any Muslim women being killed, as you claim. Perhaps you should read the Quran, and see how many times it tells men to respect women, and that they are equals.., es there are idiots who kill women for no reason, but THEY ARE NOT MUSLIMS!!! They say they are, but in God’s view, they are acting wrongly.
Don’t even start to go on about how the poor ‘israeli innovne tpeople have to leave their little homes because the naughty arabs have thrown a little rocket into it’. How about, the deprived Arabs have to flee the country because a big F16 keeps on travelling fast to create sonic blasts every morning, and becuase the israelis send in their tanks and randomly shoot whenever they feel like it. Or how about when they just send F16 in when the Plaestinians are a;lready suffering between themselves??
I have no problems with Jews, its the Zionists i despise. These fanatical ultraorthodox Jews who go round giving sweets to the soldiers in their tanks, who are surrounding small Palestinian villages and crusging their fields and olive trees. These zionists who claim they have a right to the holy land, where there is clearly a mosque built on the same ground.
If any one can support Isreal and its illegal actions, then they are subhuman, despicable and a tragedy. Perhaps they should go to the place themselevs, as i have done, to see the problem instead of chatting all this rubbish sat from their comfy chairs at home!
PS i dont live in USA, cos if i did, i would be American,. and to be called American is like being called a piece of bullshit.
I agree 100% with Noam Chosmsky’s stance about freedom of expression but:
Freedom of expression concerns idea and opinions not defamation (or some other word…).
The shitlist is a defamatory page and therefore needed to be wiped away.
Making lists of your enemies and dragging them into mud is a fascist procédé.
Let’s talk with arguments and ideas, not insults.
John, i cant rely be bothered to reply to you neither, because it is a waste of my time. But to keep it short and sweet, you can believe what you like. If you believe the lies told to you by the media, so be it. If you agfree with sites like Masada2000, then you are racist. If you don’t like Islamic Law, then tough, don’t live in an Islamic country.
In all, don’t talk about the situation in palestine as if you know it, becuase most likely, you have not even been there to see the reality, unlike some like me. So until you have been to Palestine and seen the terrorism commited by the Israelis, don’t bother talking as if you know everything.
So John, open you eyes and face the reality.
I totally agree with guess. It is obvious from that the situation is not so simple, yet it is complex. Radical zionists often aggravate the situation., and it doesnt help when the israeli response is severe. It only angers the Palestinians and causes further rocket attacks.
I strongly feel disagree with John, who claims ridiculous things. I personally know that Islam is a peaceful religon., The word Islam itself is derived from the word Salam, meaning Peace in Arabic. I think if we have people like who are John who are unwilling to listen to others, but claim radical ideas, then the world will never progress, and crimes committred by Israelis will go unnoticed.
Long live Truth! Long live Peace!
I have been reading the Tikkun Olam blog, different parts of it for sometime now, and I notice that the posters are becoming increasingly intolerant of each others opinions. I for one am in total agreement with what John G said. We can’t have 2 sets of standards for anyone. What the three Muslim and anti-gay commenters say above is just wrong–morally wrong–period. Unless we are all going to go the way of theocracy, you cannot have one group of people singled out for persecution. I am not gay and I do not think that has anything to do with this discussion. The question is: are we to be fair to people with whom we disagree? Or, are we going to condemn them the way, we ourselves could be condemned. I think it’s significant that the three people who posted anti-gay comments were Muslim. While this may offend some of you, it’s not different than someone attacking Richard SIlverstein because in some Jews’ minds, he holds unpopular opinions towards the state of Israel. Attacking someone because they are gay or Muslim or Jewish or female or whatever and then retreating behind your religious rights does not help convince others you are not extremists.
I have a few remarks that are specific for each commenter above:
1) “Truth” you say John is promoting “radical ideas and does not listen.” I did not read his comments as such. He proposes one standard by which we should judge. He cites examples, that I as a heterosecual American knew about from reading the NY Times most days. You may not like his opinions, but these are not “radical” ideas, they were things that happened to people in Muslim countries. Retreating behind the etymology of the word Islam means nothing, just as it would mean if an Orthodox Jew were to tell me the meaning of some Hebrew word and then went about behaving in the exact opposite direction of what the word meant.
2) to Ishaq mahmood, you write,
“If you agfree (sic) with sites like Masada2000, then you are racist. If you don’t like Islamic Law, then tough, don’t live in an Islamic country.” I’m sorry, again I agree with John D and Jane. You cannot have it both ways: getting to be enraged at one series of injustices and then beating the crap out of someone who wants those same rights for himself or others of an oppressed group.
I don’t agree with you, Ishaq, civil rights for everyone or no one is free. To me, this is basic.
3) To Guess, you write:
PS i dont live in USA, cos if i did, i would be American,. and to be called American is like being called a piece of bullshit.
It is great to be American. It is not Bullshit, it is honor and a priviledge Sir.
I would conclude by saying you gentlemen did nothing further your cause by attacking John or jane, and won’t help it by labeling people as ‘Zionist’ because they are of a disparate opinion. People here have the right to speak. John didn’t say one thing in support of Masada 2000, all of his comments were about injustice perpetrated towards gays in the Arab world. Instead of being human, and acknowledging that what he was saying was unfortunate, you detract support from your own argument. How? Because you see yourselves as only the victims and not the perpetrators of crimes–but you want Jews to see themselves as both..again, we have the two standards problem which hasn’t been addressed on this board in much detail. I know that when Richard and women were attacked by Masada2000, he quoted their anti-gay and anti-women epithets, why does no one say the same thing to these three guys, one of whom thinks being an American is ‘bullshit.’ I am tired of anyone who doesn’t agree with this ‘one standard for Muslims, one standard for the rest of us’ platform being written off as a right-wing extremist. This is just unfair, completely untrue, and injustice to a democratic way of life.
Like John, I am not going to respond to criticisms about Israel because that is not what I am writing about. If you want to defend the murder of another group of people, you aren’t my ally either.
To conclude, I am quoting from Guess directly:
“Perhaps you are gay yourself, but the Muslims are followng their religion in not allowing homosexuality. If it is forbidden in our religion, then in our countires, you do not do it. It’s just like murder or other crimes, if you do it, you get punished for it. Homosexuality is a sin in Islam, so it is not to be accepted. So stop acting for this ‘gay peace’ crap, and face the reality.”
This is why people are afraid of you
You want to talk about intolerance??? These are some of the hateful comments addressed to me which earned their writers permanent banning from this site:
You all have the nerve to talk to me about Muslim intolerance & hate. Well, look yourselves in the mirror. There is hate among Jews as well. So don’t get on your high horse about how absolutely shocking Muslim hate is. And get off it too about no one denouncing Muslim homophobia or women-hating. I don’t countenance anything Guess said on those subjects & have said so.
First, there were only two Muslim commenters & second only Guess’ comments could be construed as anti-gay. None of the other commenters who defended Guess even mentioned homosexuality. THere comments were confined to the I-P conflict. Get yr facts straight & be more careful before you sling mud.
Have you even bothered to read anything I’ve written here?? Clearly not. Otherwise you wouldn’t be spouting such nonsense.
This post is not about homosexuality or women-hating. It’s not about Islam. Future comments, if there are any, should address the post. If they continue to be off-topic they may not be published. Anyone who wishes to denounce Islam has plenty of other places to do that on the web. Take those opinions over to LGF where they’re most welcome.
Masada2000 is back. Shitlist has been renamed dirtlist.
http://www.masada2000.org/dirt-list.html
It looks like some racists just never learn. Masada 2000, is back, get ready for more laughable nonesense!
“we lived for over 1000 years without our homeland and got along quite well thankyou”
Wow! The last 1000 thousands years of Jewish history?
-Holocaust
-pogroms
-Inguisition
-Expelled
Didn’t fare well during the crusades or that 2nd class so called protective citizenship in the muslim world.
Some of the style of masada was little out there and they needed to clean up the personal attacks but I have NO problem with them pointing out the lefts agenda and who the players are.
You didn’t shut them down but I’m sure you’re happy with the end result.
They hate all Arabs & Muslims ? No they hated those who attack Jews. Masada promoted the Arabs & Muslims that supported Israel. They had their links to their sites Which I might not of found although Tovia Singer has had the same folks on his show too.
You forgot the Spanish Golden Age, Rambam, Spinoza, the Enlightenment, and if we go back farther the Babylonian Talmud. Propagandists like to exclude evidence that is inconvenient to their so called argument.
Ya think??
Damn straight.
Oh please, there are 100 Muslims in the entire world (if that) who are pro-Israel sycophants and these are the only ones Masada2000 has any use for. The rest can burn in Hell for all M2K cares.
I like the http://www.masada2000.org site because it provides you with a very detailed description of what happened. the maps are incredible. you cannot do any better to describe how the land was divided up between the jews and the arabs.
So that’s what happened to it. Darn! I was proud to be listed there.