16 thoughts on “After Qana: Israel Suspends Air War, 24-Hour Ceasefire Allows Refugees to Flee – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. I agree with your geenral sentiment but quoting the Guardian as an accurate (and neutral) commentator on events – loses you and your argument credibility

  2. It’s all Hezbollah’s fault.

    Yes, it is. Hezbollah cleric, quoted in the Guardian: “If they want to kill Hizbullah they have to kill every Shia in the south of Lebanon.” Don’t you think this is calculated? Hezbollah arranges itself so that Israel cannot fight it without killing civilians and then provokes Israel by kidnapping soldiers. Hezbollah has a responsibility to separate itself from civilians. Its utter failure to do so is the primary cause here.

    Whether or not the IDF is taking appropriate precautions is a military question, not a political one. I don’t know how precise the Israeli bombs can be, nor do I know what the quality of its intellegence information. But neither do you. Your conclusion, that Israel doesn’t care about the death of civilians, stems from your prejudice against the IDF. You’ve said yourself on this blog many times that you don’t trust the IDF. So when a statement is released about the precautions it takes to prevent tragedies like this one, your knee-jerk reaction is skepticism. But no army in the world has been able to fight a war with less collateral damage. I think if it were possible, Israel would be doing it.

  3. but quoting the Guardian as an accurate (and neutral) commentator on events – loses you and your argument credibility

    Using the Guardian as an excuse not to take seriously an issue of the gravity of the Qana massacre is foolish on yr part. Which media source is credible in yr. book? Tell me & I’ll find a link which will say essentially the same thing.

    I’ve also quoted Haaretz & the NY TImes in this post. Is one of Israel’s leading newspaper also not credible to you?

  4. Hezbollah has a responsibility to separate itself from civilians.

    No, Hezbollah is under no obligation to fight a war as you would have it fight. That’s the problem with folks like you. You’re offended because a guerrilla army is fighting on terms that guerrilla armies have used to fight for generations if not centuries. We don’t get to set the terms under which they fight.

    And the idea of blaming Hezbollah for Qana I find morally offensive. It allows you to feel morally superior because you can get Israel off the hook in terms of its own responsibility. Israel dropped the bomb. Hezbollah didn’t. Hezbollah didn’t force those people to shelter in that building, despite what pro-Israel partisans claim. That building was not used by Hezbollah. The IDF cannot even show Hezbollah fighters running into the building to seek refuge after rocket attacks. The building had nothing to do with any attacks. So how do you justify hitting it?

    Whether or not the IDF is taking appropriate precautions is a military question, not a political one

    More moral obtuseness. It MOST DEFINITELY IS a political question since the entire Arab world is now in a frenzy for Israeli and U.S. blood after this disaster. The fact that you don’t acknowledge or recognize shows you are wearing blinders.

    nor do I know what the quality of its intelligence information. But neither do you.

    Quite the contrary. This blog has been speaking of IDF intelligence blunders for months. They’re documented here & in the media (including Israeli media) for all to see including you. The fact that you don’t indicates that you don’t want to see or just aren’t reading those reports. Either way, it’s not a good sign as far as having an unblinkered view of the conflict.

    Your conclusion, that Israel doesn’t care about the death of civilians, stems from your prejudice against the IDF.

    Not, it stems fr. the evidence. If the IDF cared about civilian deaths it would use diff. methods to prosecute the war. I have no innate prejudice against the IDF. I believe Israel has legitimate defense interests. I believe Israel was justified in responding against Hezbollah and other terror attacks. I just don’t believe the particular military strategy they’ve chosen is either effective or morally sustainable.

    when a statement is released about the precautions it takes to prevent tragedies like this one

    No Israeli statement has been released that I know of which details any specific “precautions it takes to prevent tragedies like this one.” I don’t consider Ehud Olmert saying Israel doesn’t target civilians to be either credible or detailed enough to warrant serious consideration. If Olmert had provided specific information which the IDF used in targeting the building which led them to believe it was a Hezbollah facility or that there were no civilians there, then I’d at least entertain his evidence. But he has not done so.

    no army in the world has been able to fight a war with less collateral damage.

    This is patently false. The NATO war in Kosovo was just such a war. While there were civilians killed there, the strikes were relatively surgical compared to what Israel has done. Another thing you don’t admit or understand is that Israel deliberately WANTS collateral damage. It wants to rain down terror on the civilian population & infrastructure to political effect, falsely believing that by doing so it will bend Lebanon to its will.

  5. No, Hezbollah is under no obligation to fight a war as you would have it fight.

    Hezbollah has a moral responsibility to separate from civilians because its guerrilla tactics are directly contributing to civilians casualties. I hope you’re not suggesting that only Israel has a responsibility to limit collateral damage to civilians while Hezbollah is free to endanger them under the guise of “guerrilla warfare”.

    [T]he idea of blaming Hezbollah for Qana… allows you to feel morally superior because you can get Israel off the hook in terms of its own responsibility.

    I’m not trying to get Israel off the hook. As I admitted in my previous comment, I don’t know whether the IDF can be more surgical without undermining its goals (although, unlike you, I’m inclined to believe PM Olmert). My point is that REGARDLESS of Israeli efforts to minimize (or failire to minimize) civilian casualities, Hezbollah bears the primary responsibility for beginning this war. Had Hezbollah not captured three soldiers, the IDF wouldn’t be flying F-16s over Beirut and blowing up buildings.

    We can argue all day about whether Israel is trying to limit civilian casualties and if so, whether its trying hard enough. But what’s absolutely clear is that Hezbollah isn’t. It isn’t trying to limit Lebanese casualities and it certainly isn’t trying to limit Israeli ones. In fact, it’s making a concerted effort to kill as many as possible, on both sides of the border. I don’t see how you can accuse me of “moral obtuseness” while ignoring the obviously criminal party in this conflict.

  6. This constant argument about how HesbAllah conducts its operations is delusional. I am just so sick of the arrogance behind it. You’re going to tell HezbAllah how it should act? Rediculous.

    Does HezbAllah blend with the community? OF COURSE IT DOES. What would you have them do, park their rocket launchers on some barren hillside? With the drones snapping photos of them? And the high-res satellite images being fed to the IDF from the US? How dumb would that be?

    If the situation were reversed, and it was HezbAllah with the F-16s and drones and tanks, and it was the IDF with some highly inaccurate rockets, any Israeli commander who did NOT order his troops to hide would be immediately removed from the field. And for good reason.

  7. Hezbollah has a moral responsibility to separate from civilians because its guerrilla tactics are directly contributing to civilians casualties.

    It’s quite rich after Israel’s blitzkrieg assault on Lebanon to be talking about Hezbollah having moral obligations. I’d say their biggest responsibility as far as they’re concerned is to survive to fight today & another day. Given how carefully Israel is adhering to those moral standards you tout so highly, I find it hard to fault Hezbollah for its behavior. And as Chris says, if the shoe were on the other foot we all know that the IDF wouldn’t hesitate to use the exact same tactics Hezbollah now uses.

    And besides, you haven’t answered what was my original & more essential question. Hezbollah did nothing to the civilians attacked in Qana. It had nothing to do w. them or the building. So how do you continue to somehow blame Hezbollah & exonerate the IDF for an incident in which Hezbollah had no direct involvement? It’s all a way to get Israel off the hook imo.

    Hezbollah bears the primary responsibility for beginning this war

    Again, letting Israel off the hook. Of course, Hezbollah initiated the current round of fighting. But Israel had many choices how it would respond militarily (& there are many options I could’ve supported for such a response). It happened to choose one of the worst strategies it could’ve chosen and now is paying the price for it.

    We can argue all day about whether Israel is trying to limit civilian casualties

    Perhaps you can argue all day about it. But to me & perhaps 85% of the rest of the wworld the evidence is incontrovertible. I don’t need to argue about what I know to be true. You apparently don’t believe in empirical evidence or, if you do, you refuse to believe what’s before your very eyes.

    [Hezbollah] certainly isn’t trying to limit Israeli ones [civilian casualties].

    PUH-leeze! Hezbollah has killed 51 Israelis (a terrible toll I acknowledge) over half of whom are soliders. But Israel has killed around 800 Lebanese, the vast majority civilian & at least half children. Spare me the moralizing about Hezbollah’s depradations.

    I don’t see how you can accuse me of “moral obtuseness” while ignoring the obviously criminal party in this conflict.

    You haven’t been reading what I’ve written here & in my other Lebanon posts. I freely acknowledge Hezbollah has violated international law & should face judgment for it…as long as Dan Halutz sits in the dock right next to Nasrallah. They both deserve to spend a few decades in prison thinking of all the innocent souls they killed.

  8. You’re going to tell HezbAllah how it should act? R[i]diculous.

    Of course I’ll tell Hezbollah what to do. Why shouldn’t I point out moral bankruptcy when I see it? Do you think it’s ridiculous for Richard to tell Israel what to do?

    Does HezbAllah blend with the community? OF COURSE IT DOES. What would you have them do, park their rocket launchers on some barren hillside?

    What I would have them do is release the soldiers so everyone can go home. But short of that, if Hezbollah intentioally blends in with the community, then it has to take responsibility for civilian casualities because it actively puts them in danger.

    If the situation were reversed…

    If the situation were reversed I would be demanding of Israel what I’m demanding of Hezbollah: release the soldiers.

    It’s quite rich after Israel’s blitzkrieg assault on Lebanon to be talking about Hezbollah having moral obligations… Given how carefully Israel is adhering to those moral standards you tout so highly, I find it hard to fault Hezbollah for its behavior

    Why do you think that ethics is a zero-sum game? “Israel’s blitzkrieg assault” has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not Hezbollah is to blame.

    PUH-leeze! Hezbollah has killed 51 Israelis (a terrible toll I acknowledge) over half of whom are soliders.

    Hezbollah indiscriminately launched hundreds of rockets into northern Israel. The intention of those rockets was to kill civilians. You want to let Hezbollah off the hook because of their poorly-made rockets but that should be besides the point. Why should the quality of Hezbollah rockets affect their moral culpability? Even if I grant you that Israel isn’t trying to limit collateral damage, it’s a far stretch to accuse the IDF of trying to kill as many civilians as possible. Which is exactly what Hezbollah is doing.

  9. Of course I’ll tell Hezbollah what to do. Why shouldn’t I point out moral bankruptcy when I see it? Do you think it’s ridiculous for Richard to tell Israel what to do?

    I am a Jew. I lived in Israel two years & have a grad degree in Hebrew Lit. I speak Hebrew. I love its people & wish it peace. I criticize out of heartbreak. I have a right to speak about Israel & to hope that someone will care enough to listen.

    What credibility do you have to Hezbollah that they should pay you an ounce of attention? You can shout fr. the rooftops about their moral perfidy, but you’ve never expressed any understanding or empathy for anything they or their followers experience so I find it strange you would feel you were an appropriate moral arbiter as far as they are concerned.

    if Hezbollah intentioally blends in with the community, then it has to take responsibility for civilian casualities because it actively puts them in danger.

    ‘If wishing made it so.’ But it won’t. It doesn’t have to take such responsibility & won’t at least until you become Hezbollah’s chief. Then you can take responsibility on their behalf.

    If the situation were reversed I would be demanding of Israel what I’m demanding of Hezbollah: release the soldiers.

    That’s not what I asked. I asked if Israel were the weaker party in the conflict & hid its soldiers among civilians & innocent Israelis died because of this would you say the same thing to Israel as you’re saying to Hezbollah? Would you be willing to demand that Israeli soldiers separate themselves fr. civilians & make themselves sitting ducks for superior enemy weapons?

    “Israel’s blitzkrieg assault” has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not Hezbollah is to blame.

    Not the way international war crimes are determined. Israel doesn’t get to say: “we’re not at fault for killing civilians because the other started it.” The court will judge both sides’ crimes separately & w/o any regard for ea. other.

    You want to let Hezbollah off the hook

    I clarify my pt. of view to you over & over & yet you don’t seem to be reading or understanding. I didn’t say Hezbollah is “off the hook.” Quite the contrary.

    I DID say that there is an element of proportionality involved usually in international affairs (though hardly ever in Israeli practice). If you kidnap two of my soldiers I don’t usually kill 800 of your citizens & do over $1 billion in damage to yr country. In this sense, Israeli policy has gone quite mad. And the madness is calculated, just as the madness of Nixon’s Hanoi bombing campaign was designed to convince the N. Vietnamese that he’d be willing to bomb them back to the Stone Age.

    The other problem w. seeing Hezbollah as the sole guilty party is it allows Israel to demonize it and see it as an existential threat to the nation’s existence which it is not by any means. Their is much hysteria as far as Israel’s view of Hezbollah. Only a clear-eyed country can see its options & make wise decisions as to which ones it should choose. A country blinded by hate & hysteria makes awful choices as we see in this case. We can of course say the same about Hezbollah. But again this doesn’t let Israel ‘off the hook’ as you say.

  10. I don’t know, Richard. At some point you just have to throw up your hands. It’s impossible to have any kind of meaningful dialog with people who simply will not address or understand your issues, facts, or concerns. Or mine, for that matter.

    Their statements are filled with “shoulds” and shouldn’ts” and “they have to do this” and “the others are justified in that” which is just cloud koo-koo land. It’s not a logical position to take for one simple reason – the actual facts on the ground are consistently avoided.

    The argument that HezbAllah is responsible for civilian deaths is just beyond delusional to me. And it’s an argument you read over and over and over from the more vehemently pro-Israeli posters. Let me tell a very short story.

    Our next door neighbors have a boy by the name of Johnny. Now Johnny’s a bully. He just beat up my son for the 10th time. But this is cool because tomorrow I’m going to kill his entire family. The most excellent part is that it will actually have been Johnny’s fault! Cool!

    But wait. Johnny may end up killing my son. But that, of course, will be MY fault.

    Gee, now I’m all confused.

  11. As this post is already quite old in blog-years, I’ll just make a few brief comments. You misunderstand my point about Hezbollah taking responsibility of civilian casualties. I don’t mean that Hezbollah must take responsibility, in the sense of a public acknowledgement. I mean that in objective ethical terms, Hezbollah is the responsible party. The civilian deaths are primarily a result of both Hezbollah’s initial attack on Israel and its use of civilian buildings to hide rockets. I don’t mean that Israel isn’t responsible. Any army must recognize the collateral damage it causes and try to minimize it, which Israel is doing. We disagree on whether or not the IDF can minimize it further. Let’s say, for argument’s sake, I grant you that the IDF is negligent in its attacks. There is a substantial moral (and legal) difference between negligence and murder. I’ve made this distinction on this blog before but it bears repeating. Putting Halutz and Nasrallah in the same category is repulsive. The rockets launched against northern Israel aren’t even aimed at military or political targets. Nasrallah’s entire strategy is to kill civilians and he does nothing to hide his intentions. His goal is Iran’s goal: the destruction of Israel.

  12. Any army must recognize the collateral damage it causes and try to minimize it, which Israel is doing. We disagree on whether or not the IDF can minimize it further.

    I dare you to provide one single shred of evidence that Israel is minimizing collateral damage in Lebanon. What you say is ludicrous. And we don’t disagree on whether the IDF “can minimize it further,” we disagree on whether the IDF cares at all about such damage. Did you read my post in which the IDF admitted that the only reason it agreed to the 48 hr suspension of air activity was to “change the tone” regarding the Qana massacre. In other words, they didn’t give 2 shits that they’d killed 41 civilians in a single strike. They cared that the incident was devestating their PR machine & wanted to change the tone. They try to minimize damage all right, but not to civilians.

    Putting Halutz and Nasrallah in the same category is repulsive.

    Come on. You’re being quite disingenuous. Once again, Halutz has killed 900 Lebanese civilians, caused the displacement of 1 million Lebanese (1/3 of the entire population), & $2 billion in damage to Lebanese infrastructure. What has the mighty Nasrallah done? Terrified northern Israel–yes. Displaced a portion of the northern population–yes (but not nearly as many as have been displaced in Lebanon). Damage to infrastructure? Not really though individual apartments & homes have been destroyed. Killed? Yes, about 30 civilians & 30 or so IDF (rough numbers). But do the math? Who’s committed more mayhem?

    Nasrallah’s…goal is Iran’s goal: the destruction of Israel.

    You should read the post I published yesterday about Ze’ev Sternhell about how the failure of the IDF mission in Lebanon has forced it to seek a new rationale, & that new rationale is that Lebanon has now become a war of survival–which it clearly isn’t. Israel is not in existential danger fr. Hezbollah. And you are intellectually disingenuous in raising this specter. It’s a non-starter.

    Sure, Iran says it’d like to destroy Israel. Even Hezbollah says this. But neither can do it, not by a long shot. Israel says it would like to destroy Hezbollah. But can it do it? No. Neither side can destroy the other though both may want to. Both sides lie when they use arguments like this.

  13. David,
    I do agree that HezbAllah’s rocket attacks are killing innocent (what I consider to be innocent) people, and there can be no excuses for this. Any action of that kind is inexcusable and, yes, they seem to show no remorese for this. That is lamentable, no question.

    But here’s my point. You say that HezbAllah is responsible for all the innocent deaths of Lebanese because they started it. It’s this that I don’t agree with and for the following reason.

    On June 24th, Israeli soldiers kidnapped a doctor and his brother from Gaza. As far as I can tell, they are civilians with no connections to Hamas or any other armed group. They have since disappeared into the prison system of Israel and have not been heard from since. Stories, as confirmed by Amnesty Internaitonal, continue to stream out of Israel about regular torture in these prisons.

    On the very next day, June 25th Corporal Gilad Shait was kidnapped. This was obviously a reprisal kidnapping. And this, I think, is a crucial point. They didn’t kidnap Shalit just for the heck of it. They were playing tit-for-tat.

    After that, Israel moves in with its tanks and its shelling of Gaza and consequent loss of innocent life.

    Soon after, HezbAllah kidnaps 2 Israeli soldiers and the gates of hell have opened: A thousand killed (mostly women and children) and almost a million refugees created.

    I am convinced that if the original kidnapping of the doctor and his brother had not happened, it is extremely unlikely that any of the subsequent events would have happened. I think it is incorrect to say that HezbAllah started it. I very much believe that it was, indeed, Israel who started this.

  14. I hate to play the tit-for-tat game, though. It is endless:

    * On June 8, the Israeli army assassinated the recently appointed Palestinian head of the security forces of the Interior Ministry, Jamal Abu Samhadana, and three others.

    * On June 9, Israeli shells killed seven members of the same family picnicking on Beit Lahiya beach. Some 32 others were wounded, including 13 children.

    * On June 13, an Israeli plane fired a missile into a busy Gaza City street, killing 11 people, including two children and two medics.

    * On June 20, the Israeli army killed three Palestinian children and injured 15 others in Gaza with a missile attack.

    * On June 21, the Israelis killed a 35-year old pregnant woman, her brother, and injured 11 others, including 6 children.

  15. Richard,

    I found you on google. I’d be interested how you would respond to the new proof that the Qana ambulance “missle strikes” was staged for the media and Israel bashers like yourself.

    Will you admit you were duped but stick to your opinion, or will this enter into how you see the middle east?

    As you can see from the pictures, they simply took to top light off the ambulance. It is not even damaged inside.

    Is this some Zionist trick?

    Regards

  16. “The new proof,” eh? What “proof” would that be? The type of propaganda that passes for “proof” at LGF & their blog ilk doesn’t pass muster around here. So go back to your propaganda mill where you belong & stop wasting the time of people that actually care about reality rather than illusion (or is it “delusion”?) as you do.

    Will you admit you were duped

    Certainly not. It’s you who are duped, but you have duped yourself. You pro-Israel hacks are having a collective fever dream. And you certainly don’t let something as mundane as reality interfere with it.

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