Why is the Shin Bet Afraid of this man? (photo: Rikard Larma/AP)Menachem Froman is an extraordinary person. He is an Orthodox rabbi who lives in the West Bank settlement of Tekoa. He was a co-founder of the right-wing Gush Emunim movement, yet broke with it after Baruch Goldstein’s rampage massacre. Despite this past history, he has very close relationships with Hamas. In fact, he negotiated for the release of Sheik Ahmed Yassin (later assassinated by Israel) from an Israeli prison, later becoming fast friends with him. He’s met with Mahmoud al-Zahar and the group’s leaders seem to like and genuinely trust him. He is a key figure in Jerusalem Peacemakers whose goal is to create an interdenominational dialogue involving spiritual dimensions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
All of these qualities make Froman a very dangerous guy to Israeli intelligence. Here’s how Arthur Neslen described what happened to Froman’s promising initiative by which Israeli peace activists and Hamas leaders would have jointly called for the immediate release of kidnapped IDF soldier Gilad Shalit:
The day before the tanks rolled into Gaza, Froman had been due to launch an extraordinary peace initiative at a news conference in Jerusalem with Muhamed Abu Tir, the Hamas MP, Khaled Abu Arafa, the Palestinian minister for Jerusalem, and three Israeli rabbis.
The panel was to have made a collective call for the release of Corporal Gilad Shalit, the beginning of a process to release all Palestinian prisoners, and the immediate start of negotiations with Hamas on the framework for a peace deal based on 1967 borders.
They would also have announced that Jewish and Muslim religious leaders could achieve peace where Israel’s politicians had failed.
But the response from Israel’s security establishment was crushing.
Hours before the meeting was due to start, the Shin Bet detained Abu Tir and Abu Arafa and warned them not to attend the meeting. The news conference’s organisers were forced to contact the other rabbis — who were already on the road to Jerusalem — and tell them not to come.
Instead of a triumphant statement of mutual respect and dialogue, a subdued and gently defiant three-man panel fended off aggressive questioning from an unruly Israeli press pack.
Nelsen continues by pointing out that Froman’s efforts at finding common ground with Hamas is truly threatening to the Israeli government because it would put pressure on it to negotiate in good faith and make real concessions in order to achieve peace:
Two days after the news conference, Abu Tir and Abu Arafa were kidnapped by Israeli forces, along with a third of the Hamas cabinet. Four days later, Israel revoked both men’s citizenship and residency rights in Jerusalem. As the Jerusalem Post headline put it: Shin Bet foils Hamas-Jewish meeting.
An even more accurate headline might have been the one Israel National Radio’s Arutz Sheva website ran a few days later, pertaining to another story: The peace process is a bigger danger than Hamas.
In this opinion piece, Ted Belman said that “the threat of rockets raining down on Israel from Gaza isn’t nearly the threat that the peace process was and is” because peace talks would require Israeli concessions.
To give some perspective, Belman, one of the powers behind right-wing pro-Israel blog Israpundit actually finds the Qassam rockets fired into Israel useful in some warped way since it means (according to him) that there will be less pressure on Israel to negotiate with the Palestinians.
The article does not seem lucid. It seems to imply that the Israeli government wants to stop Froman’s initiative for fear it will lead to Israeli concenssions, but it is widely known that the ruling Israeli government parties (Kadima and Labour) support these same concessions. It would be otherwise fathomable for the article to claim that the corrupt Kadima/Labour politicians are using the Shabak in order to further their political agendas so that they could take the credit of any Israeli-Arab peace initiatives.
What concessions? Fr. yr pro-settler vantage, I supposed withdrawing settlers illegally occupying Hebron is a “concession.” But that’s not what we mean by “concessions.” A real concession involves Israel negotiating a final status agreement that will involve far more for both sides than evacuating a bunch of wingnut kooks.
whoa – pro-settler? What about pro-human rights? Can you comment about Rabbi Froman supporting Israel giving the Palestinians sovreignty over territory but allowing Jews to keep their land (without getting into the discussion about the legal owner to that land)?
You seem to be against Jews owning land in Arab neighborhoods. What’s up with that racism?
Can I assume that negotiating a final status agreement to you means A) withdrawing all Jews from the territory won in 1967 B) right of return to 1948 land?
Rabbi Froman is perfectly correct & reasonable in proposing this solution. Let any settler who wishes to stay in the Territories as long as they accept Palestinian sovereignty. There would have to be an agreement with the Palestinians as well to protect the settlers rights & ensure they are equal to any Palestinian’s rights.
No, you can’t. I don’t support removing all Jews from the Territories as long as they accept Palestinian sovereignty. And I don’t support a full physical right of return. But I do accept a symbolic right of return that should be compensated financially along with Geneva Initiative symbolic resettlement of a select number of Palestinian returnees pre-agreed w. Israel.
So your concessions are basically for Israel to retreat to the 1949 ceasefire lines and to allow an ‘A-list’ of Palestinians to resettle in Israel and compensation for the rest. And what does Israel get in return? Promises that Jews can stay in their settlements without discrimination and revenge checkpoints? While at the same time, Hamas, the PLO, Islamic Jihad, Eiz El Din Al Qassam, still declare their struggle to conquer all the land west of the Jordan River?
It does not matter whether I am pro-settler, centrist, or leftist. Their is a simple problem that after 15 years, the Palestinians have not lived up to any of their obligations under the Oslo Accords, the PLO charter still has not been changed to take out the section about cleaning up all of ‘Palestine’, and if they can’t even control their own people not to blow Israelis up on buses, no one even expects them to make sure Jewish settlers on legally bought land can life a free life under Palestinian sovreignty.
It’s not pro-settler vantage, it’s pro-life. Only the rabid left thinks that winding the clock back to 1949 will solve anything. The moderate left is willing to bend over backwards, yet apprehensively. The majority of Israelis don’t see what anymore concessions will help.
Thank you for this article – as a Christian who has been weeping tears of blood for the horrors devastating the Holy Land and its peoples, I’ve only today discovered the existence of a religious peace movement that unites Jews and Muslims on the basis of their common spiritual values, and I was infinitely touched by the story of Rabbi Menachem Froman. May God/G-d/Allah bless this saintly man of peace! He and all those who share his aims will be in my prayers every day of my life until the blessed day comes when Israel/Palestine and all its peoples/faiths learn to live together at last as brothers in peace, justice and mutual respect.
I wish everyone knew what’s really going on in the occupied Palestinian land. There’s many Jewish people who are against what Israel is doing against the Palestinians. God Bless them and you also Lisa for speaking out for the injustices against the Palestinians! Israel has no plans for peace! they just want all the land for themselves.
G_d bless Rav Froman.
How sickening and twisted.
I couldn’t help but laugh at the “HOPE” ad on the right side of this blog, depicting a young Israeli woman with the words “I refuse to occupy” on her cheek.
NEWSFLASH: Israel “proper” is also considered OCCUPIED by the people who call themselves “Palestinians”. Why the 67 borders? Why not the 47 borders?? Or better yet, why not the 1922 borders encompassing ALL of British mandate Palestine as the Jewish homeland – recognized by the League of Nations at the San Remo Conference.
Just like the Jews who drove out the Cannanites 3800 years ago, the modern day Jewish Nationalists are OCCUPYING every square inch of “Israeli” territory. It is a religious OBLIGATION to settle in, and clean up the Holy Land, and quite frankly the Muslim Arabs are a lot “cleaner” than the average Israeli Obama supporter. Jews don’t own the land, they are stewards of the land, and the Israeli government is a disgrace to both Jews & Muslims.
What sickens me, is that God-less “Jews” claim to support peace with Muslims, and promote Gay pride in the same breath. What fools you all are!
Because the international consensus has focussed on 1967 and not any of the other years or agreements you mentioned. Hamas & Fatah also have conceded they would accept 1967 borders as does the Saudi peace initiative.
You are a disgrace to my people. Truly a disgusting disgrace. Thank God that my God is not yours.
Its too bad the enemy doesn’t adhere to the “international consensus” you speak of. The enemy considers all of Israel occupied Palestine.
Obama is a globalist, and those who support him are promoting his God-less agenda.
Muslims will NEVER respect an Israel that doesn’t respect God.
Actually, I’m sorry to say that you, Jake & yr numbskull ideas are more the enemy of peace than anything most Palestinians believe. Do you have any proof that any major Hamas or Fatah figure has stated in the recent past that all of Israel is “occupied?”
Just today, Ismail Haniyeh said:
“This movement liberated the Gaza Strip with the help of the militant factions. Brothers and sisters, we will not be satisfied with Gaza. Hamas looks toward the whole of Palestine.”
What do you think he is referring to when he says “the whole of Palestine”? Your living in a dream world if you think he is talking about the West Bank.
You left out the context fr. this quotation:
Tell me: why would a supposed Islamic revolutionary movement abide by a ceasefire with its arch enemy if it really believed it could conquer Israel?
Apparently, you’re not aware that Palestinian politics like all politics everywhere has a context. And in this particular situation Hamas & Fatah are butting heads over the imminent liberation of Gilad Shalit & Marwan Barghouti, & pressure fr. some for Hamas to reconcile w. Fatah. These are what are driving such bellicose statements, not a real belief that Hamas can or will conquer Israel.
It is common knowledge that the Palestinians all Jewish localities as Zionist colonies. They actually feel more stronger against the cities in ‘Israel’ because they claim it is stolen land from the refugees of 1948. Go read Benny Morris and Ilan Pappe. The settlements in Judea and Samaria were built on barren hilltops.
It is common knowledge that you’re an ignoramus. Do you think a barren hilltop can’t be owned by someone? What business do you think most Palestinians are in? They are farmers & shepherds & of course the land they own doesn’t look like Tel Aviv. Those so-called barren hilltops were owned by Palestinians. Peace Now has documented that nearly 70% of Israeli settlements are built on privately owned Palestinian land.
When someone starts name calling, it’s merely a Freudian slip of their maturity level.
The English language is screaming in pain at horrible mess you make of it.
Why would Hamas abide by a ceasefire?? Well they didn’t until Israel crippled them in the Cast Lead offensive. Now they need time to re-arm & re-organize. Its called deterrence.
Hamas does believe it can conquer Israel, and only a fool would ignore such blatant threats. Again, you are living in a dream world.
Here we go again. We’ve been over & over this matter before ad nauseam. Israel is the party that violated the ceasefire which led to Cast Lead by bombing a Gaza tunnel & killing 6. That’s why Hamas refused to renew the ceasefire. Israel is at least as much the culprit as Hamas. But you’re only reading MEMRI or CAMERA or Debka or whatever so you wouldn’t know these things would you?
Contrary to what you seem to believe, Hamas are not utter fools. They know they can’t destroy one of the mightiest armies in the world w. slingshots. But what are you such a fool to believe a slingshot could fell Goliath? Well, yes I know David did it. But the IDF is a virtually impregnable Goliath esp. compared to the weapons Hamas wields.
Hamas is sworn to Israel’s destruction, and they always have been. Stop speaking as if they are [in any way] a peace partner.
They know that they cannot defeat Israel today, which is why they agree to temporary ceasefires. With the help of Iran, Syria, and Russia they may be able to destroy Israel in the future.
Richard, you see the world how you wish it to be, not how it is.
Where did you learn about Hamas? What do you know about Hamas? What are the sources on which you base your ignorant assumptions? Did you know that 57% of Israelis disagree with you and, while they don’t like Hamas, they support negotiations with Hamas not just to free Gilad Shalit, but to avoid future hostilities & yes, even over a possible peace deal if that ever becomes feasible. Aren’t you out of touch with the Israeli mainstream??
I see. Just what help have they gotten from them so far? And even if they did, just when do you presume Hamas would become strong enough to destroy Israel? Perhaps sometime in the NEXT century, if then?
Sorry, my friend, you know nothing whatsoever about Palestinians in general or Hamas in particular. And if I’m wrong do prove where yr ‘knowledge’ on this subject comes from.
I get my information on Hamas, from their charter.
[comment edited to conform w. comment rules]
They believe, like other brainwashed anti-semites, that Israel is the beginning of a plot to dominate the world. I don’t know who wrote the “Protocols” but I would guess it was a group that wanted to deflect attention from the real enemy trying to dominate the world.
I know several Palestinians, and while they are much more difficult to speak with (about this conflict) than average Muslims, even they agree with much of what I’m saying. Especially the fact that secular Zionists (who shove their liberal ideology down everybody’s throat) are a bigger issue than religious Zionists who simply love the land & their God who gave it to them.
When the Jewish state breaks away from morally-bankrupt western countries, the Muslim enemy just might give peace a chance.
Both sides are fighting for all the land – you can’t support both sides. I support Israel because I believe the Jewish people bring more light than darkness. I do not support Hamas because I believe that they bring more darkness than light.
This is absolutely not the place for quotation & discussion of the Hamas charter. This subject has already been discussed ad nauseam here. Google “Hamas charter” for past discussions. For that reason, I’ve deleted yr comment.
You’re also ignoring my comment to you. The Charter does is not a governing document for Hamas. It does not reflect the views of anyone other than the person who wrote it in 1988. It is irrelevant to all but Zionist hasbarists like yrself. We’re simply not going to debate the Charter. If you wish to do this, you’ll do it at the 1,000 hasbarists sites where this conversation already happens.
So Hamas is lying about their charter?
The charter has no meaning. They don’t have to lie about it. Nobody in Hamas knows what’s in the charter. Nobody consults it. They don’t quote from it. It doesn’t govern anything. Hasbarists like you are the only ones who do this. This is the 3rd time I’ve written this in the past 12 hrs. I’m getting tired. If you keep it up I’ll ban your comments or you.
Josh, you & I made our points quite clearly.
As for Richard, he keeps resorting to personal attacks and calling us right-wing “hasbarists” when in fact we are just straightforward and logical observers.
Anyone reading this thread of comments will realize who the moron is. As far as “Palestinian nationalism” is concerned, they can have their nationalism East of the Jordan river. West of the Jordan is sovereign Jewish territory, and 2000 years of occupation by foreigners doesn’t change that fact.
You still haven’t told us where & how you know about Hamas. What are your sources? That’s not very straightforward to me. In fact, it’s quite opaque. As for logic, you have very little. But I’m glad you’re content w. that happy little hermetically sealed pro-Israel world in which you live.
“Anyone?” Well, yes they will realize that, but their identitification might disappoint you.
Actually, I think you’ve just proven who the moron really is.
Richard, I posted that last comment after a long day, and I apologize for getting nasty. I just feel that you are brainwashed beyond repair.
I know you believe that Obama is peaceful, and the UN is a wonderful organization. Just realize this; the Arabs don’t accept Israel because of a UN resolution 60 years ago telling them to. They accept Israel because they’ve been defeated countless times and they have no choice.
Your pro-Obama views are in the fractional minority among Zionists. Even liberal Israelis recognize Obama for the menace that he is (besides for about 6% who believe he is “pro-Israel”). There is a consensus among most Jews that the West Bank is Jewish land. The best proof of that is successive Israeli governments (ranging from far-left to far-right) never stopping the settlement enterprise.
In 1922 the League of Nations gave the British a mandate to create a Jewish homeland, and allow Jewish settlement in all of British Palestine. The Israeli establishment is well aware that they were shafted by the British, who installed the Hashemite regime on the East Bank, then provoked a local war between Jews & Arabs on the West Bank.
I don’t believe you are a bad person Richard. I believe you have the best of intentions (like most people), and that you are helplessly brainwashed by dark forces who want to divide Jerusalem, and raise the abominable UN flag over the Temple Mount. It gives me comfort knowing that Jewish Nationalists will never let that happen, I just wish more average Jews (like yourself) would wake up.
I disagree somewhat. I don’t think that Richard is brainwashed, but rather has an attitude that is over merciful of perceived harm to others, even if the others are attacking you. Giving away the ‘West Bank’, the cradle of Jewish civilization, is really like cutting off an arm. But…
There is a consensus among most Jews that the West Bank is Jewish land.
Very true, but many (most?) don’t put too much importance in that and are willing to generously ‘give it away’ for promises of peace and perceived acceptance by others (countries and leaders). The brainwashing here is in the leadership claiming that the world will accept us and be placating by withdrawals, when in essence, the world is not interested in this ‘Jewish need for acceptance’ and our inferiority complex.
Being “too merciful.” That’s a criticism I’m willing to accept.
Rabbi Yochana ben Zakai, thankfully didn’t see it that way after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, when he evacuated the city, established a school in Yavneh, began training rabbis & sent them abroad eventually to minister to Jewish communities outside Israel. Ben Zakai recognized that Jews could survive w/o a temporal home (though it would be nice to have one of course). So yr view is ideologically partisan & ahistorical.
Absolutely false. Can you point to any poll of Israeli opinion that confirms this? No, of course you can’t because there isn’t. YOU believe this to be the case & therefore it become the truth for “most Jews” even though this is pure fiction.
I’m still waiting for an original thought fr. you. First, the Arab states are not nor can they be defeated by Israel. Second, the Saudi peace plan offer Israel complete acceptance in return for Israeli withdrawal to 1967 borders. Israel has yet to accept this offer. So it is not the Arab states that are the problem here, but Israel.
Well over 50 % of American Jews support Obama. The 6% figure you report is fictional. First, this was based on a survey by the neocon Likudist Jerusalem Post which did not in effect measure whether Israeli found him to be pro Israel, but an entirely diff. question. A more recent survey released this week finds that 41% of Israelis support Obama despite the settlement freeze & other matters some Israelis do not view as friendly. 45% view him as pro-Israel.
Yes, I know that’s the pro Israel far right position parroted endlessly. When was the last time you heard of the League of Nations as a viable institution? Not for 80 yrs or so. It doesn’t exist nor do the agreements it signed except insofar as they’ve been adopted by the UN, its successor agency. The UN does not accept the 1922 mandate as valid.
Me and George Romney (a bit of ancient American presidential election history).
At least you acknowledge that I am Jewish which is better than some of my opponents. But I assure you I am quite awake.
Point #1: Wrong. Israel has no obligation to give up land it won in a defensive war (especially the West Bank which was conquered from Jordan, who has since given up claims to it). Israel is being idiotic to even offer the Palestinians a state. The Palestinians are being even more idiotic to demand 67 borders after they attacked Israel and lost. When you gamble, and lose, you don’t get your chips back.
Point #2: I love how you discredit a poll because it was published by the “Likudist” Jerusalem post. I guess that makes this the “Meretzist” Tikun Olam blog. Look at what ultra-leftist Fidel Castro just said about Obama. He knows the man has sinister intentions (I would quote him, but apparently thats not allowed here).
Point#3: Before the UN, the League of Nations was the body which drafted “International Laws”. But your right, the League of Nations is not a “viable institution” and neither is the UN. Why should Israel adhere to UN resolutions when most of the world (and in particular ALL of her enemies) don’t adhere to them.
P.S. Of course your Jewish. Only a fellow Jew can get me this riled up.
Happy Chanukah
On the contrary, the United Nations and the world community insist that Israel give up such land. Next, I’ve never heard of any provision that a conquering power gets to keep land it believes it won fair & square because it determines the land was won in a defensive war. Next, the war was most assuredly NOT defensive.
Thanks for slaughtering the English lang. If you’d done even a minutes’ worth of research you could’ve determined my views of Meretz, which are not positive. But that’s beside the pt. The Post’s journalism & poll-taking are ideologically suspect. The Meretz issue is a non sequitur.
Yes, a deep Mohammedan cult rules Washington & plots Israel’s demise as I write this. Thank God you have uncovered Obama’s sinister intent before it’s too late. Perhaps together we can sound the alarum.
You don’t seem to understand subtle phrases so let me use a sledgehammer: the League of Nations is DEAD lo these many yrs. The UN is still alive & kicking.
Your question was “where did I learn about Hamas”. I told you from their charter. But according to you thats not a valid source.
I suppose Al-Jazeera is where you learn about Hamas.
There was no reason for you to delete those quotes. This article is about Hamas supposedly agreeing to a deal with Israel. I quoted their charter which calls for Israel’s destruction, and somehow that doesn’t “conform w comment rules”.
You’ve made sweeping generalizations about Hamas & its nature. You couldn’t possibly have devised those generalizations from reading the About.com page about the Hamas charter. I’ve asked entirely reasonably where you learn about Hamas & its principles or values? It’s a simple question really. Or are you really claiming the only time you’ve ever read anything by or about Hamas it was at this single website?
No, I learn about Hamas fr. Haaretz, Yediot Achronot, the NY Times and various blogs whose writers actually know first hand sources and are experts in Palestinian nationalism, Islam, & Israeli politics. So once again, I’ve shown you mine, now you show me yours.
My comment rules explicitly prohibit long quotes from propaganda sites or documents, which is precisely what you’ve done. Not only that, but other right wing commenters have quoted fr. the charter already here. This blog does not exist as a springboard for right-wing propaganda attacks on the Palestinians. If you want to mount a real discussion about real issues which you’ve given real thought to (not pre-baked right wing pablum which you bought pre-ordered fr. a local hasbara website) even if you disagree w. my views, then you’re welcome. But if all you want to do is spout Hasbara 101, it’s already been done here by 40 or 50 before you & we don’t need to hear more.
Richard, you can try to shove your ideology down my throat all day long, but it wont work.
The UN is a World Government that recognizes British colonial borders, and rejects Israel’s ancient historical borders. I will reject it til the day I die. So will Israel, and other nationalist countries/peoples.
Maybe Israel will listen to the UN about “occupation” when Britain, France, Russia, China and the US (etc) end their occupations of foreign land. Israel is “occupying” neighboring territory chock full of Jewish artifacts (its called “Judea” for a reason btw) – not far flung countries and islands like the others I mentioned.
I never said Obama’s sinister intentions had anything to do with Islam, and neither did Fidel Castro. On the contrary, he uses his black skin, and Islamic background as a political tool.
Richard,
so you don’t believe the Hamas charter but you do believe what Haaretz publishes right?
Hamas still wants to liberate ‘all of Palestine’
By Ari Shavit, Haaretz Correspondent Last update – 11:59 17/12/2009
The cat is out of the bag: Palestine, all of Palestine. Standing before 100,000 people in the center of Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh this week declared the objective of the Hamas movement. The moderate prime minister of the moderate faction of the Palestinian religious movement publicly announced the peace solution for which his government is aiming.
The ultimate solution is not the total liberation of the Gaza Strip or a Palestinian state. It is the liberation of all of Palestine.
Read on …
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135710.html
No, I don’t automatically believe Haaretz. Some columnists are more credible than others. Ari Shavit is not a credible Haaretz columnist, which is why his views are so felicitous for you. Read through his other columns & stop saying Haaretz is a left wing publication. It has a number of commentators who you’d prob. like reading though it would force you to admit that not everything there is Arab-loving.