70 thoughts on “Jewish and Israeli Blog Awards, Ideologically-Slanted? – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. Richard wrote:
    “there are MANY categories in the JIBS. I haven’t had time to explore every one. I selected the categories dealing with Israeli politics and examined them.”

    You really hardly explored anything. Your post, which ostensibly represents a succint “critique” of the JIBS is merely a warmed over version of patriotboy’s post on the same subject – including most of the same graphics. You gleefully make Aussie Dave out to be some raving genocidal racist. I bet you could barely contain yourself when you added in that nice (sic) to your cherry picked quote to! You know, standardss on the Internet are not the same as those in the print world!

    BUT there are some standards. For instance, it’s Dan Sieradski not “Siedarsky.” Also Mobius would blanche at the notion that he runs Jewlicious. Dan runs Jewschool. Time to feed your fact checkers Richard.

    Finally, anyone can nominate any blog for the JIB Awards. Your accusation that Aussie Dave’s ideological orientation has created a bias or something is just plain…. misinformed.

  2. Boy oh boy, are those grapes sour.

    The JIB awards are an online competition, it’s not supposed to be objective, or balanced. It’s not a law, or a bill, or a court rulling, it’s an online competition, you’re overreacting.
    You chose to take your anger out by badmouthing the newspaper that hosts the awards (which, I agree is quite right leaning, but your wild attack on it is uncalled for), and the bloggers who participate in it.

    I’m not ashamed of making Pancake Corrie jokes. I believe that anyone stupid enough to willingly enter a warzone which he isn’t a part of, and then stand in front of a running bulldozer, and not move away, deserves to be laughed at, no matter if he’s dead or alive. Specificly in Pancake Corrie’s case, her being terror enabler, whose favorite pasttime was teaching foreign kids how to burn the flag of the country that raised her, it’s even more enjoyable.

    It’s one thing to be left leaning, or even anti-Israeli. It’s completely another thing to back the ISM and the kinds of organisations that back terrorists, give them hiding, and support their activities. Positioning yourself behind the ISM does not demonstrate any special set of political beliefs, but rather being either misleaded or a very hatefull person towards the very notion of Israel.

    Also, just so we compare between me, the “non-housetrained” blogger and yourself. I’m an IDF soldier. I spent the last 2 and a half years serving my country and fighting for what I believe in. What have you done to make your beliefs come true? What have you done for your tikkun olam?
    That’s what I thought.

    P.S. I’m housetrained, thank you very much.

  3. Richard,

    If I were to take selected quotes from your blog I could easily paint a skewed picture of who you are. Try really reading Soccer Dad. Read the whole post that your excerpt came from and see if you see the same thing.

    As for the JIBs I would highly recommend that you spend more than two minutes to make a determination about whether there is a political slant. I would also strongly urge you to read the blogs that are in the Life in Israel category and I think that you’ll see things differently.

    Beyond that I would also suggest you look at the procedure for nominating a blog and you will see that any blog could be nominated. You could have nominated your own blog for the category you have so much angst over.

    It is an open and transparent process. You don’t have to like the blogs. You don’t have to read them and you are welcome to blog about all of them and I would encourage you to do so. But I would also encourage you to look deeper than you have because you are doing yourself and others a disservice.

  4. I agree with Jack.

    With my site in particular, you are making it sound as though I hate Arabs… which I certainly do NOT.

    I love Arabs, but I expect them to be loyal to the country that provides them their livelihood. The Arab members of the Knesset says things that are nothing short of treason. To actively call for the destruction of a nation that you work for is disgusting and intolerable.

    You act as though we should expect our leaders in the Knesset to hate those that they represent. You call this “progressive thinking”?

    What could be more backwards than to invite your enemies into the camp to slaughter you? It’s absurd!

    If an Arab wants to live in Israel, and they love our nation, I will stand behind that Arab with all of my strength. I love that Arab.

    But if that Arab wants to actively support the murdering of Jewish children, he needs to go to a nation that support his twisted ideaology. Tell what is so absurd about Jewish survival?

  5. It looks like the little ideological clique represented by the JIBA nominees is attempting to pile on here.

    Let’s take ’em one at a time starting with CK:

    You sir, don’t read very carefully. First, I noted at the conclusion of my post that I was primarily judging the Awards based on two categories that were most important to me. I write a blog mainly about politics. I analyzed the two categories of the Awards dealing with politics. Why would I want to analyze the Jewish culture blogs if the entire point of my blog post was to discuss the ideolgogical slant of the political blogging categories? Or should I be looking at the ideological slant of the aforesaid Jewish culture category or all the categories for that matter? And to what purpose?

    I guess when you read you miss a lot of nuance. While I did quote some of the excerpts Jesus’ General discovered in his research on the JIBA political blogs , what’s wrong with that. I noted my reliance on his work. You mean to say that academic researchers never rely on or quote the work of others? And of course, you couldn’t be attempting to imply that I added nothing to the discourse on the subject now, could you? Because if you did you’d be dead wrong. No blogger who’s blogged critically about JIBA has noted Aussie Dave’s involvement and the potential impact it could have on the nature of the Awards. In addition, my post used quotes from other JIBA blogs which I myself researched in an earlier post I wrote about PJM. But you see you didn’t read my post carefully enough to notice any of that material & its origin, now did you?

    You’re wrong again about my choice of graphics. You’ll see in my post the JIBA banner, a photo of Aussie Dave and the “I Love Cats Mouse Pad.” NONE of those items are in Jesus’ General’s post. Even the mouse pad image is entirely different than the one he chose. Of course, as you say I did get the idea for including that particular image from JG (though I chose a different one). But really, it so damns that particular blogger for being the cold, callous & juvenile person that he is–it was too good to pass up.

    You say I “make Aussie Dave out to be a raving genocidal racist.” Not quite. He’s certainly racist and he does rave a bit. But he’s not genocidal, at least not yet. You see, he’s only in favor of killing innocent Palestinians when the IDF is targeting militants for assassination. But he’s opposed to the “deliberate killing of innocent people.” So he has some standards, vague as they might be. But I suppose one could ask the fellow to list a single incident in which he felt the murder of a Palestinian by the IDF was unjustified. I wonder if he’d come up with one?

    As for your corrections, they’ve already been pointed out to me by another and corrected. You could’ve saved yourself the hot air it took to write your snarky words. I guess you’ve never allowed any typos or similar such mistakes into your own blog?? Glad to know that at least one of us is perfect.

  6. You chose to take your anger out by badmouthing the newspaper that hosts the awards (which, I agree is quite right leaning, but your wild attack on it is uncalled for), and the bloggers who participate in it.

    “Anger?” I don’t think so. Anger is too strong a word. “Badmouthing Jerusalem Post?” We must be reading two different posts. I didn’t badmouth the Post. You yourself say it is “right-leaning.” I merely pointed out that a right-wing blog and a right-wing newspaper have collaborated to create an Awards competition that also is right leaning (at least in its political categories. So how is that a “wild attack?”

    What I love about all you guys (& gals) is that in your eagerness to set up a straw man to attack you melodramaticize my own words and arguments, atributing to me emotions like anger which I didn’t feel and “wild attacks” which never were. Maybe you can’t take anyone criticizing you or your sponsors? Skin getting a little too thin perhaps?

    Your disgusting paragraph in your comment here about Rachel Corrie only cements your status as a human lout of the lowest and foulest order. On the basis of what you’ve said you’ve earned your banishment from this blog.

    Positioning yourself behind the ISM does not demonstrate any special set of political beliefs, but rather being either misleaded or a very hatefull person towards the very notion of Israel.

    Lies, distortions it’s all the same to you, isn’t it? I don’t think I’ve ever even mentioned ISM in my entire blog so how would you know that I “position myself behind ISM??” Does saying that I find jokes defiling the dead to be in the most execrable taste define me as a supporter of ISM? If you believe that then you’re an even bigger idiot than I thought.

    In fact, I neither support nor oppose what they do. They have a right to do what they do. That is, they have that right if Israel wishes to claim it is a democracy. The fact that you apparently would deny them that right indicates that if you are in favor of democracy it’s only Jewish democracy you favor. Or perhaps you’d like to muzzle Jewish or Israeli opposition to the Occupation as well? Then, we’d see that you’re not even in favor of Jewish democracy.

    As to your stupid remarks about serving in the IDF…So, I see–if I haven’t served in the IDF then I have no right to speak about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? That’s idiotic (if it’s what you do believe). And what specifically makes your service in the IDF mark you as a special order of human being who possesses superior insight and wisdom to discuss selfsame subject? I suppose you’d argue that IDF service somehow advances tikun olam as a moral concept? How did you “heal the world” through your service? By running armored tractors over young American protestors?

  7. No blogger who’s blogged critically about JIBA has noted Aussie Dave’s involvement and the potential impact it could have on the nature of the Awards.

    And this is meaningful because of what. The nominations were open. Any blog could be nominated by themselves or by others. Your strawman just blew over.

    While I did quote some of the excerpts Jesus’ General discovered in his research on the JIBA political blogs , what’s wrong with that. I noted my reliance on his work. You mean to say that academic researchers never rely on or quote the work of others?

    Again another strawman argument. There are endless examples of academic research that has proven to be false and has been debunked as junk. Any time you rely upon another for quotes you place yourself in jeopardy of being embarrassed because of quotes taken out of context or just misquoted.

  8. Jack: You wrote–

    As for the JIBs I would highly recommend that you spend more than two minutes to make a determination about whether there is a political slant.

    “Two minutes??” You’ve got to be kidding. That post took more like nearly four hours to write. A considerable portion of that time was spent reading the blogs nominated. In addition, I’d already researched some of these blogs for a previous post I wrote about Pajamas Media. So I feel I’m quite familiar with what they contain. How much research do you do? If you did a good deal you would never have made such a glib statement.

    If you want me to read more of Soccer Dad you’re welcome to send me a link to material there that represents a different point of view than what’s quoted here. The few hours I spent exploring these meretricious blogs last night in writing this post was more than enough for me. I’m not about to wade back into the muck. But as I said I’ll read a link should you wish to send me one.

    …You are doing yourself and others a disservice.

    How is quoting material that a blogger publsihed doing a “disservice” to them or JIBA? Are you saying that the authors of the horrible things quoted here didn’t mean what they said? Or that subsequent material they’ve written has contradicted what’s quoted here? Sorry to say, but that’s hardly likely.

  9. Richard,

    I am saying that I don’t believe that you spent as much time doing your research as you claim that you did. I am saying that I can pull an excerpt from any post and make it sound horrible.

    I am saying that you clearly did not spend any time reading anything outside a very small section of the JIB nominations but that you took that small sample to try and smear the rest.

    I am saying that your insinuation that the nominations were skewed to only include a certain political POV is patently false and inaccurate.

    Furthermore I will go out and say that I think that you probably are a good guy and that you have a good heart and good intentions. But good intentions are not enough to prevent people from going astray.

    I would ask that you spend some time reviewing the blogs in this category and see if you come up with the same claims about ideological slant.

  10. Tovya, Tovya, what can I say? You’re entirely self-deluded. You “love Arabs??” Could you tell me how you love Arabs?

    I guess you’ll next be telling me some of your best friends are Arabs. Like your cleaning lady & the fellow who built that new addition to your apartment, etc. Or you’ll be telling me that you know Arabs because you’ve lived among them (Aussie Dave tried that one on me once). To which I’d ask: do you mean you lived among them because you lived in a walled settlement alongside a Palestinian village?

    But seriously, how much do you know about Israeli Arabs or Palestinians? How many have you met? How many are truly friends? What do you really know about them? What books have you read about them or their culutre? And if you do not know them how can you say anything knowledgeable about them? About what they believe or don’t believe?

    The passage quoted from your blog in this post advocates that Israeli Arabs should not have Knesset representation. This in turn means you’re in favor of disenfranchising 20% of the Israeli population. And if you take away the vote then you’re essentially denying them citizenship. Is this what your real intent is? No doubt you’ll reply that you’re not in favor of disenfranchising ALL Israeli Arabs, only the disloyal ones. Pray, how would you determine that? Would you make them take loyalty oaths?

    As for Arab Knesset members who purportedly argue for the destruction of Israel…why don’t you feature a quotation here & let me be the judge of what they’re really saying. Sorry, but I don’t trust you to filter their views for me.

    But what’s really interesting is that you seem to have a real problem with democracy. I’d like to ask what your view is of Kach and Meir Kahane. I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but your views as I’ve read them don’t diverge much. But I’d be glad for you to point out how I’m wrong if I am. You seem to believe people should be allowed to say what they think as long as they don’t cross some ill-defined line, going over which constitutes treason. You do realize this is precisely the type of thinking that led in the 1950s to the rise of McCarthyism and the execution of the Rosenbergs? Is that the type of society you really wish to live in?

    In fact, I’d argue that the danger of any Israeli Arab doing serious damage to the State of Israel is far less than the danger inherent in your inherently anti-democratic views. Totalitarianism, authoritarianism, whatever you want to call it is the most serious threat to democratic values. No Israeli Arab no matter how disloyal scares me half as much as that.

  11. Jack:

    I wrote:

    No blogger…has noted Aussie Dave’s involvement and the potential impact it could have on the nature of the Awards.

    You wrote:

    And this is meaningful because of what. The nominations were open. Any blog could be nominated by themselves or by others. Your strawman just blew over.”

    It’s terribly meaningful. It means that Aussie Dave and his right-wing blog network dominate the proceedings because of their “reach.” Look, I have no problem if you called this the Jewish Right-Wing Blog Awards. Then you’d know what you were getting. But what’s objectionable about the Awards is that their title might lead an outsider to believe that all or most Jewish bloggers represent the same narrow set of views. If you want your competiton to truly represent “Jewish and Israeli Blogs” as their name indicates, then you’d think they’d want to ensure Jewish and Israeli blogs of other stripes were more represented.

    Clearly neither Aussie Dave nor the J. Post have made any attempt to do this nor has any interest in this. They’re happy to operate within their tight-knit little coterie of the like-minded. They like it that way. That’s fine. But just don’t try to sell me that this competition represents anyone other than a self-selected group of right-wing bloggers.

    There are endless examples of academic research that has proven to be false and has been debunked as junk. Any time you rely upon another for quotes you place yourself in jeopardy of being embarrassed because of quotes taken out of context or just misquoted.

    You’re arguing from a generalization, which is intellectually dangerous in such discussions. You’d best point out an example in which either Jesus’ General or I misquoted or took out of context any of the quotes included here.

    And there are not “endless examples of academic research that has proven to be false & debunked as junk.” You clearly haven’t spent much time in academia. In fact, it sounds like you have an axe to grind against it. There may be some fraudulent academic research (witness the Korean cloning research). But the vast majority of academic research performed at reputable colleges, universities or research institutes is without blemish.

    I spent five years at two undergraduate institutions, two years at the Hebrew University and earned graduate degrees at two other research universities. I know something about this subject.

  12. Richard said: It looks like the little ideological clique represented by the JIBA nominees is attempting to pile on here.

    Heh. Nice one Richard. Are you including Jewlicious in that grossly overgeneralized statement? We’ve been attacked by both the right and the left so I figure we’re doing something, ahem, right.

    You said: You sir, don’t read very carefully. Au contraire mon ami, I read very carefully. You seek to spin your post as a mere examination of only two political categories that matter to you – that would be Israel Advocacy and …. uh…. well, never mind. I digress. The title of your post reads “Jewish and Israeli Blog Awards, Ideologically-Slanted?” not “Jewish and Israeli Blog Awards Israel Advocacy category, Ideologically-Slanted?” You thus imply that the entire affair is some cynical excercise in political manipulation. Sorry. Did I say imply? Let’s see:

    I replied to Derek that when the Jerusalem Post severs its relationship with Aussie Dave and really attempts to recruit a broad cross section of Jewish and Israeli blogs, then it will be worthwhile for other types of blogs and bloggers to participate. Until that time, this competition is rigged for the right.

    The competition is rigged. RIGGED! Yes because the long nomination period, open to one and all, was sneakily set for when all the left wingers, except for Jewschool and Dov Bear, were uh… out busy harvesting their patchouli crops. That sneaky, sneaky eliminationist aussie and his “tight-knit little coterie of the like-minded.” The JIBs were well publicized on well trafficked Web sites of every ideological persuasion, so unless you and your pals really were out harvesting patchouli, or para-sailing, or tending to your garden or whatever, you have no case.

    Anyhow, that’s enough snark and hot air for today. I am eagerly looking forward to more whoring for votes, posturing and attention-seeking on both sides. Yay JIBs!!

  13. I’m not your ami, buddy so cut the cutsey pie crap.

    I’m getting grossly tired of your tedious arguments. I’ll address yr. last comment & be done with it. I’d suggest that if you have more to say in the same vein you do it at your own mouthpiece.

    Two categories of the competition are slanted. I’ve got news for you–that makes the Awards worthy of being called slanted. Sorry if you don’t like it. How ’bout you write your own headlines & I’ll write mine? If you don’t like mine no one asked you to.

    And if you doubt that JIBA is rigged you should read my latest post in which the Post admits there is an ideological criteria for exclusion from the competition AND that Aussie Dave is arbiter of who is eligible and who disqualified. Of course, the Post says it knows of no one whose nomination was rendered treif for that reason. But there is still a distinct possibility that he could disqualify any blog whose “raison d’etre” was to criticize Israel (whatever that means). You clearly feel terribly comfortable allowing him to make those decisions. You’ll pardon me but I don’t.

    Which brings me back to my original contention that this is NOT a transparent competition much as you & its organizers would like believe.

    BTW, calling Dov Bear “leftist” is laughable. Shows how little you know about the center or the left of the political spectrum. I like Dov Bear and appreciate both his religious and political perspective. But he’s no “leftist.” To folks like you anyone left of Jabotinsky is a “leftist.”

    that’s enough snark and hot air for today

    You said it, not me. But allow me to agree with the only accurate thing you’ve said among all the meretricious wind you’ve blown here. I’m tired of snark. You want snark, go elsewhere.

  14. I’m amazed nobody that’s taken time complaining about Richard’s post has defended the inclusion of Little Green Footballs (neither Jewish or Israeli….but co-owner of Pajamas Media), Roger L. Simon (another co-owner of Pajamas Media), Powerline (mmmm Pajamas again?), Protein Wisdon (don’t tell me….Pajamas Media right?), Cox and Forkum (closely linked to PJM and LGF….and also disgusting racists) and finally Winds of Change (Not Pajamas Media, but was asked….also predominantly right wing) as best ‘Mega’ Blogs?

    No one yet has defended that. I wonder why?

  15. So the JIBs are ideologically slanted because Aussie Dave may eliminate a blog from the competition. He hasn’t of course, not ever, but he may. Thus the whole thing is biased in favor of right-wing blogs. I see. Have you ever stopped to consider that due to the wide open nature of the nomination process, anyone can get nominated. And by anyone I mean sites like Jew Watch or StromFront etc. Giving the guy that runs the awards the power to eliminate from the competition sites that are totally inappropriate seems like a reasonable thing, especially since all evidence shows that Dave has used his power judiciously / not at all.

    I’m glad you picked up on the ironic designation of Dov Bear as a leftist. Oh wait. You didn’t:

    BTW, calling Dov Bear “leftist” is laughable. Shows how little you know about the center or the left of the political spectrum. I like Dov Bear and appreciate both his religious and political perspective. But he’s no “leftist.” To folks like you anyone left of Jabotinsky is a “leftist.”

    Heh. To the right wing nutters we’re anti-religious anti-Zionist scum. Just goes to show though, that you and the people you’re criticizing are cut of the same ideological cloth. Sure they come from a different political orientation, but y’all have the same un nuanced view of the world as one of extremes. “You’re either with me or you’re against me.” You also show the same lack of tolerance for dissenting opinions. If you don’t like my comments, then ban me or turn off your comments section and stop pretending that you are interested in dialog and open-minded discourse. Your understanding of our political affiliation is laughable. Left of Jabotinsky… heh. Such cluelessness.

  16. Silverstein,

    Shame my site is currently down, because I responded to your absurd conspiracy theories. Once again, your level of ignorance and lack of correct information is astounding. When my site is back up, you can read my response. I don’t intend to repeat it now.

    But I will say this: you gave your motivations away in your first paragraph:
    “and being ever-ambitious and hungry for recognition of my blog I thought I’d check it out for myself.”

    You’re just pissed you weren’t nominated. Shame you just didnt nominate yourself.

  17. Dan “mobius” Sieradski (you might want to correct that on your page already) has openly called Israel “an apartheid state” on Jewschool, just for example. Yet Jewschool is nominated for no fewer than five JIB’s. “Apartheid state” seems just a wee bit left of Jabotinsky, now doesn’t it? Sorry dude, but I just don’t think your bitter little argument here holds water.

  18. I know at least one Jewish blogger who didn’t bother to continue when he read that anyone who didn’t acknowledge Israel’s “right to exist” as mentally ill and ineligible. Israel’s “right to exist” is a loaded phrase but say it wasn’t. Now I’ve heard many times that an inability to seperate Jews and zionism is a symptom of the new anti-semitism. So Chazmo is an honorary Jew for his “support of Israel” which largely consists of demonizing Muslims generically, but Jews can be excluded for insufficient zeal concerning the Israeli state. My, oh my. That’s how insidious this infection is. The New Anti-Semitism has reached it’s tentacles into the Jerusalem Post and Dave.

  19. I’ve read a lot of misinformed rants by a variety of people. But as a Jew and an Isaeli I usually expect a somewhat higher level of discourse by my own People. This blog has so many problems on so many levels it’s hard to know where to begin. First of all, the Jerusalem Post has a pretty wide selection of writers, secular, religious, Arab, Christian, and Jewish. Secondly, for all it’s real faults, it is the paper which is read by diplomats, consuls, foreign business people, and pretty much anyone who reads English and lives abroad. The Hebrew Israeli papers are widely read here, but only here, practically no one but native Israelis and other Hebrew readers bother with them. And you can bet that the Hebrew papers really are biased and tenedentious, with badly written articles almost always pushing a Left wing Israeli hating agenda.

  20. You are entitled to your opinion about the situation in Israel and the territories. But when you refer to a Palestinian Arab who has “collaborated” with Israel (presumably in preventing terrorist attacks) as a “quisling,” you are implicitly comparing Israelis to Nazis. So who exactly is the extremist here?

  21. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=62000

    Charles Johnson, of LGF, as the above article shows, is a far more dedicated, true friend of Israel than any left-wing Jewish shanda is. He has earned his kudos, and while the Jewish left sits around singing Kumbaya, Mr. Johnson raises awareness of what is happening to Israel. One Charles Johnson is worth 10,000 lefty Jews.

    Still got your knickers in a knot over Blathergate, and Mr. Johnson’s big part in exposing it? Jealousy really is so unbecoming.

    Quite Freudian the use if green ink on this sad little blog.

    BTW, if you would look at PJ Media, you would see that there are slao quality left-leaning bloggers included…I stress the word ‘quality’.

  22. WoWWW. These JIB awards are causing more controversy than any real controversy out there. From reading all this Jewish blog infighting and arguing and name calling, I have grown a new respect for all Jewish bloggers. WHile my friend Tovya at Zion Report(a man of the right) is battleing it out with many a Jewish site on the left, I have gained new respect for those sites like Jewlicious and a few others. It’s one thing to write a rant on your site every week like I do, but it’s another to actually argue and try to gain calrity with the entire internet. Much respect to all those holding their ground both on the left and the right of the Jewsih scene. I would not have the paitence. I went through my site and editied out all the ultra-controversial stuff before the JIB awards started.

    My site is at a comfortable 1% of the vote and that’s where I am ahappy to stay. All the best to all the JIB nominees looking for clarity and understanding with each other. As Jerry S would say, “Good luck with allllllllll that.”

  23. “…and also disgusting racists.”

    I’ve seen F&C political toons before and I’ve never noted anything remotely racist. Care to elaborate? LGFs gets the racist tag for focusing on Middle-Eastern madness, but I have to say I feel that’s unfair as well.

  24. Shep: If you’re seriously interested in this subject you can view my post about Pajamas Media which contains a passage about LGF; or better yet, there’s an entire site, LGF Watch, devoted to rebutting Johnson’s calumnies. You might find things that give you pause. But then again if you’re as open-minded as the scores of other commenters campaigning here on behalf of JIBA, Isreally Cool & LGF, then it might leave you unmoved.

    I should say “scores of commenters who’ve tried to publish here. I don’t take kindly to orchestrated or semi-orchestrated campaigns against this blog. All new commenters are moderated. If all you intend is to repeat ad nauseum things already said in this thread, don’t bother. It’s all been said before & no one needs to hear more. Commenters like Shep who ask questions which seem genuine and somewhat open-minded will get published. Propaganda won’t.

  25. I’ve seen F&C political toons before and I’ve never noted anything remotely racist. Care to elaborate?

    ———————

    Cox & Forkum’s political scribblings share many points of thematic and aesthetic similarity with 1930s era German political cartoons, e.g., the depiction of domestic opponents with heavy, lidded eyes, thick lips & hooked noses, etc.

    For a side-by-side comparison of Cox & Forkum cartoons with the political “cartoons” of he nazis, please see this slideshow.

    Plagiarism? Doubtful. But in case after case, the resemblance is eerie enough to make one wonder if perhaps Der Sturmer was an unacknowledged influence.

  26. Perhaps all this wrangling is just so much wasted effort. Has anyone thought to think of the consequences of Russia arming Iran to help it obliterate Israel? Israelis had better let go of the endless arguments about right and wrong, and start packing. Russia will gladly do a Marshall Zhukov and let Iran flatten Israel in order to gain hegemony over Iran’s gas supplies. When Iranians start saying “Look, Russia is a friend of Islam because they’re helping us with our nuclear weapons program” . . . look out! By that time, nobody will care whether Israel’s few friends are Jews or not. The missiles will be inbound, and the Jews will still be arguing about the ethics of survival.

    You’re right. It’s none of my business. I think I’ll return to the Christian church and focus on something else. The survival of Israel is simply a minor distraction when faced with the much bigger problem of ensuring reliable supplies of Iranian gas in Europe.

  27. It’s terribly meaningful. It means that Aussie Dave and his right-wing blog network dominate the proceedings because of their “reach.” Look, I have no problem if you called this the Jewish Right-Wing Blog Awards. Then you’d know what you were getting.

    No, it really isn’t meaningful unless we allow you to spread the canard that you have to have had a particular political POV to be nominated and it is clear that you did not. You are promoting a fallacy.

    But what’s objectionable about the Awards is that their title might lead an outsider to believe that all or most Jewish bloggers represent the same narrow set of views.

    That is part of a very reasonable argument about the behavior of Jews. Does one Jew represent all Jews. It is a good discussion and one that doesn’t have a clear answer, but it doesn’t negate the reality that a left/right or middle blog could have been nominated.

    If you want your competiton to truly represent “Jewish and Israeli Blogs” as their name indicates, then you’d think they’d want to ensure Jewish and Israeli blogs of other stripes were more represented.

    That would be great.

    You’re arguing from a generalization, which is intellectually dangerous in such discussions. You’d best point out an example in which either Jesus’ General or I misquoted or took out of context any of the quotes included here.

    My position is far less unstable than your own in which you assume that the general didn’t misquote anyone. It is not my job to run around pointing out sloppy work, but if you go look and Ezzie’s post on this I think that he did the leg work for you.

    You clearly haven’t spent much time in academia.

    And you know this because of what? Because you have seen my resume, spent time speaking with me on the telephone or are clairvoyant. You can criticize me all you want but just remember that you really don’t know my background.

    There may be some fraudulent academic research (witness the Korean cloning research). But the vast majority of academic research performed at reputable colleges, universities or research institutes is without blemish.

    You hope and you think that this is true, but you really do not know for certain. It is one of those things that we like to believe. I certainly hope that you are right and operate from the assumption that most research is conducted ethically, morally and in a scholarly manner. There was an article written last year in which they discussed just how many problems there are with scientific research and how many scientists acknowledge this.

    I spent five years at two undergraduate institutions, two years at the Hebrew University and earned graduate degrees at two other research universities. I know something about this subject.

    Congratulations on being educated. I worked in several universities, conducted reseach and helped many doctoral students with their doctoral theses. I don’t think that either one of us are interested in a pissing contest about who knows more.

    As I said I think that you are a good guy who is pulling for the same things as myself, but are doing so from a different direction.

    I still encourage you to review those other blogs and see what you find.

  28. “You do realize this is precisely the type of thinking that led in the 1950s to the rise of McCarthyism and the execution of the Rosenbergs? Is that the type of society you really wish to live in?”

    Uh, the Rosenbergs were proven traitors by a court of their peers and the information gleaned from the former USSR after the government fell. And just so you know: There were communists trying to take over the govt. back then.

    What are you trying to say, then?

  29. LGF Watch is run by someone in the UK, who is a Jew. He was a poster on LGF, and was rightfully banned when 2 posters on LGF researched the hate site you so extol, and revealed that it was the same Dave Ray, who posted away happily at LGF.

    He now has a blog in addition to LGF Watch, where he gets about 10 comments in 6 months. Sad. He is a Zionist, but since so many in blogdom now know who he is, re LGF Watch, he is as popular as bird flu.

    I doubt that you would be pleased if there was a Tikum Olam Watch, but then you seem in no imminent danger of receiving the accolades that Mr. Johnson has, thus not drawing the jealousy and animus of the Dave Rays of the world.

    Enough kvetching already because you were not licked. And again, take a look at the roster of those who are members of PJ media; there are LLL’s in the group, who also happen to have worthy blogs, even if they re liberals, No whiners in the group.

  30. Dan “mobius” Sieradski has openly called Israel “an apartheid state” on Jewschool, just for example. Yet Jewschool is nominated for no fewer than five JIB’s.

    Laya: You clearly haven’t bothered to read this post:

    Of eleven blogs in ‘Group A’ of this category, one, Dan ‘Mobius’ Sieradsky’s Jewschool, is progressive. Sound “fair and balanced” to you?

    I might add that I was only speaking of Group A which contains 11 blogs. Group B has a similarly sized group & may perhaps have a single blogger somwhere to the left of Jabotinsky. So are you saying that because there is a single progressive blogger that JIBA has covered all the bases of Jewish blogging? This competition in no way reflects the diversity of opinion in the greater Jewish blog world.

  31. it really isn’t meaningful unless we allow you to spread the canard that you have to have had a particular political POV to be nominated and it is clear that you did not.

    Sorry Jack, but you’re misinformed. One man’s canard is another’s truth. See my second post on JIBA here & you’ll find that there are definite ideological criteria for inclusion. If the “raison d’etre” of your blog is to criticize Israel, then you’re out. Derek Fattal of J. Post informed about the criteria himself.

    And they claim they’re using the perspective of a “layperson” (whatever that means) with no ideological ax to grind to judge who crosses the line, when in reality that “layperson” is none other than Aussie Dave himself. And he’s not ideological is he?

    If you do think it would be great (as you wrote) to create a more inclusive process in which a broader set of ideas is represented in future contests, you should lobby the JIBA sponsors. Fattal, writing on behalf of the Post feels everything they’ve done has been absolutely correct and hasn’t responded positively to this idea or any others I’ve offered to them (not that I’m surprised).

  32. Richard,

    You can keep repeating yourself as often as you want but it doesn’t mean that your beliefs are correct, accurate or true. Virtually any blog could have been nominated. It is reasonable and fair that there be a minimal guideline in which blogs that are completely anti-semitic be kept out.

    But, let us put that aside for a moment and return to a different question. Have you taken the time to read the blogs in the Life in Israel category? Because it seems to me that you have had a very limited exposure to the JIBs and that your blanket accusation of bias is being issued because of a personal axe to grind.

    And just to be clear about something I think that it is important for Israel to be criticized just as I think that it is important for any free society to have an open dialogue among its supporters and citizenry. Without that you risk so very much.

  33. the Rosenbergs were proven traitors by a court of their peers and the information gleaned from the former USSR after the government fell. And just so you know: There were communists trying to take over the govt. back then.

    Elena: “Traitors”…such a hysterical word used to hide lazy thinking. Want to taint someone? Just call ’em a traitor (as so many have done in my comments threads here), then you don’t have to address anything they say.

    Yes, the Rosenbergs were convicted and executed. They were spies and members of the Communist Party. Your blather about taking over the government is hysterical overstatement. Whatever the Communist Party’s ideology, they never even took over a school board, let alone a government. They were no more a threat to the existence of the U.S. than my 6 year-old dog is. And the best defense against whatever threat did exist from the Party was maintaining our way of life, our civil liberties and freedoms, our tolerant, open society. We actually shamed and defaced these institutions and values by executing the Rosenbergs. Not to mention the shameful McCarthy red scare era and the poisonous impact it had on American life.

    You neglect to mention that Klaus Fuchs gave away the much more important asset–the hydrogen bomb–to the Russians & was never prosecuted. Others who were prosecuted for similar types of crimes (passing on nuclear secrets) were not threatened with execution. In Ivy Meeropol’s terrific documentary film about her grandparents, she interviews a Chicago couple who admitted that they passed secrets to the Russians, were interviewed by the FBI (I think they may even have admitted some culpability though I can’t remember the scene well enough to be sure) and were never prosecuted. Interestingly, I don’t believe the couple was Jewish.

    The Rosenbergs were convicted by a jury of their peers, not a court of their peers (actually in a way it was a court of their Jewish peers as the judge, prosecutor, defense attorney, the chief prosecution witness/snitch, and both defendants were all members of the tribe–nice when you the goyim can use a fellow Jew to help fry a “bad” Jew–reminds me of the Jewish capos at the Nazi death camps…but I digress).

  34. LGF Watch is run by someone in the UK, who is a Jew. He was a poster on LGF, and was rightfully banned when 2 posters on LGF researched the hate site you so extol, and revealed that it was the same Dave Ray, who posted away happily at LGF.

    Lois: First, what would be wrong with someone posting at a site whose contents he disagrees with, and who owns another site (LGF Watch) which critiques the first (LGF)? Your comment has that breathless tone of “oooh, look we got the dirty spy.” What is it precisely that is so dastardly about what this fellow DID at LGF or was it just that he had the temerity to host his own site criticizing LGF?

    One thing I just love about rightists (most of the commenters here have used “leftist” as a smear against my blog so that justifies me using it right?) is their absolute intolerance of points of view even a milimeter to their left.

    By the way, I know & admire LGF Watch. If I were doing the site I probably wouldn’t cast so many insults & ad hominem attacks Charles’ way, but I have to admit that he almost deserves them he’s such a twit.

    He now has a blog in addition to LGF Watch, where he gets about 10 comments in 6 months. Sad. He is a Zionist, but since so many in blogdom now know who he is, re LGF Watch, he is as popular as bird flu.

    I see you really like to use scientific evidence. How would you know how many comments his blog gets? Did you go through every post and count? And by the way, the number of comments is a factor in determining a blog’s popularity, but not necessarily in determining it’s quality. I know blogs I value very highly which get very few comments (or may even have comments turned off).

    Interesting, LGF Watch’s owner is Jewish and a Zionist. Yet somehow he’s still persona non grata in LGFland. My but you are an inclusive bunch over there aren’t you?

    I doubt that you would be pleased if there was a Tikum Olam Watch, but then you seem in no imminent danger of receiving the accolades that Mr. Johnson has, thus not drawing the jealousy and animus of the Dave Rays of the world.

    I don’t see why anyone would be crazy enough to want to waste hours of their life shadowing my every blog utterance. Charles has earned “accolades?” Do tell. Or are you just speaking of JIBA? If so, all I can do is yawn.

    Enough kvetching already because you were not licked.

    That would all depend on who was doing the ‘licking.’ Really, you do need to do some work on proofreading those comments (two commenters here have already tsk-tsked me for my own less humorous typos). I assume you meant “picked.” Actually, I did not know about the competition until after it was closed.

    You folks still don’t get it, though. My readers don’t read the Jerusalem Post (I do very occasionally) nor do most of them read any of the blogs nominated. That’s probably also true of most of the center to left side of the Jewish blog world. So why would they, I or any of our readers know about, care about, or nominate me or any other blog for JIBA?

    And again, take a look at the roster of those who are members of PJ media; there are LLL’s in the group, who also happen to have worthy blogs, even if they’re liberals, No whiners in the group.

    Gee, there are 4 liberal blogs out of seventy (it was seventy prior to PJM’s rollout, it may be less now). Now that’s real range isn’t it?? Come to think of it that’s about the same “range” as JIBA. Now, I wonder whether that’s a coincidence?

  35. It is reasonable and fair that there be a minimal guideline in which blogs that are completely anti-semitic be kept out.

    Jack: Now, that’s an interesting imprecision. I wrote in my response to you that they disqualify blogs whose main purpose was to criticize Israel and you transform that into “blogs that are completely anti-Semitic.” Yet you say you’re in favor of allowing criticism of Israel.

    What this reveals is that you are conflating blogs which criticize Israel with blogs which are anti-Semitic. An interesting judgment and one I’m sure Aussie Dave would agree with wholeheartedly. Yet another reason why this entire competition is a put up. If you criticize Israel “too much” in your blog you’re anti-Semitic and therefore eligible for disqualification.

  36. Charles at LGF is a well reasoned person who has doubts about people who are not so well reasoned. He can admit his mistakes with humor and humilty. There is something wrong in Palestine and it’s not israel. The cause is elsewhere.

  37. Richard,

    It has been nice but you really are not interested in dialogue because the message is unwelcome to you. The truth and reality is that the nomination process was not skewed the way that you claim. The reality is when you used Soccer Dad’s quote you used it out of context but apparently didn’t care because it didn’t serve your purposes to acknowledge that.

    And since you are unwilling to read the multitude of blogs in the contest outside of a very small sample you really cannot say what the politics are of the JIBs and the blogs in it.

    One more point. If you are a frequent reader of the Jewish blogosphere it is impossible not to have seen the notice about the JIBs. They were publicized everywhere. Next year I encourage you to see that your blog is nominated, even if it is a self nomination.

  38. So the JIBs are ideologically slanted because Aussie Dave may eliminate a blog from the competition. He hasn’t of course, not ever, but he may. Thus the whole thing is biased in favor of right-wing blogs. I see. Have you ever stopped to consider that due to the wide open nature of the nomination process, anyone can get nominated. And by anyone I mean sites like Jew Watch or StromFront etc. Giving the guy that runs the awards the power to eliminate from the competition sites that are totally inappropriate seems like a reasonable thing, especially since all evidence shows that Dave has used his power judiciously / not at all.

    CK: Your problem is that you like to set up straw men thereby making it that much easier to knock them down. Don’t grapple with a complex argument. Simplify and distort till it means what you’d prefer it to mean and thus all the easier to dismiss.

    The site eligibilty rules do not say they specifically and only plan to disqualify sites which espouse Jew hatred. They say they may be used to disqualify sites whose raison d’etre is “criticism of Israel.” That’s a whole lot different than espousing neo-Nazi views. I wouldn’t say my site’s raison d’etre is criticizing Israel, but I’ve asked Aussie Dave whether he’d ban me and have not heard his answer. His standards for defining that term would be far different than mine.

    And as sponsor why doesn’t he turn over this job of deciding whose fit for competition to an independent party so as to avoid the suspicion that he might attempt to influence the ideological composition of the contest?

    As for the fact that Aussie Dave used his powers “judiciously” as you claim. You wouldn’t know that because as I said the competition was largely self-selected from a relatively narrow collection of like-minded blogs and individuals. So of course JIBA rules have never been challenged because JIBA’s promotion/marketing has never taken it much out of their small world. Unless I’ve become persona non grata at JIBA & disqualified even from nominating blogs (let alone competing) next year I might just nominate some Jewish and Israeli blogs I admire which do criticize Israel strongly & then we’ll really get to see Aussie Dave’s true colors.

    I’m glad you picked up on the ironic designation of Dov Bear as a leftist. Oh wait. You didn’t…

    I took entire courses and read entire tomes in grad school about irony and I guess I must’ve missed the one which defined the following as an ironic statement:

    all the left wingers, except for Jewschool and Dov Bear…

    You’re just oh so subtle a writer & I really should’ve somehow understood the supposed irony intended.

    Just goes to show though, that you and the people you’re criticizing are cut of the same ideological cloth. Sure they come from a different political orientation, but y’all have the same un nuanced view of the world as one of extremes. “You’re either with me or you’re against me.” You also show the same lack of tolerance for dissenting opinions.

    Your arguments against me are high on generalizations & low on specifics. I find anti-Palestinian, anti-Muslim, anti-human sentiments in many JIBA blogs to be offensive to me as a Jew and supporter of Israel. If you’re accusing me of a lack of tolerance for defaming the dead and Jewish racism, I’ll be first in line to plead guilty. But I’m not saying those blogs have no right to be in competition (in which case you could legitimately call me intolerant). I merely say there are almost no opposing views to the bile in these blogs represented among the nominated blogs.

    If you don’t like my comments, then ban me or turn off your comments section and stop pretending that you are interested in dialog and open-minded discourse. Your understanding of our political affiliation is laughable. Left of Jabotinsky… heh. Such cluelessness.

    Don’t like you, don’t like your comments, don’t like your attitude. But my we’re getting melodramatic here aren’t we? Why would I ban you or turn off comments? To prevent you from speaking here? Don’t flatter yourself. Then you could whine to your JIBA friends about how I’m such a bad, bad man.

    I will say though that my conversation with you on this subject is now over. If your future comments don’t add anything new to the discussion I reserve the right to edit or delete them. If you’d truly like to get yourself banned the rules are clearly inscribed above the comment box…

  39. Charles at LGF is a well reasoned person… who can admit his mistakes with humor and humilty.

    Another of Chucky’s groupies. “That’s the only thing that there’s just too little of…” We sure need more of you around to spread the love of Chuck.

    There is something wrong in Palestine and it’s not israel. The cause is elsewhere.

    There certainly IS something wrong in Palestine–and part of the blame lies with the Palestinians themselves and part certainly lies with the Israelis. The fact that this commenter and most of the JIBA political blog nominees agree wholeheartedly with JD’s statement only serves to illustrate the limitation of the JIBA competition.

  40. If you are a frequent reader of the Jewish blogosphere it is impossible not to have seen the notice about the JIBs.

    Jack: Absolutely not true. I am a frequent reader of the Jewish blogosphere (if you bothered to read more of this blog than this post you’d know that as I link to a number of other Jewish blogs) & knew nothing about it till a week or so ago.

    And since you seem to imply that you ARE a frequent reader of the Jewish blogosphere could you tell me whether you’ve ever visited the following blogs:

    Lawrence of Cyberia
    Head Heeb
    Pro-Semitism
    Cal Tzedek
    Israelblog.org
    One Voice
    SJ’s Blog
    Ariga.com

    I’ll make you a deal…I’ll examine the Jewish Life JIBA category if you’ll read a post or more from each of these blogs dealing w. the I-P conflict.

    And how could you make a judgment that I’ve refused to review any of those sites you recommended based on making the suggestion less than 24 hours ago? Do you expect that I’m at your beck and call & at a moment’s notice? That I have no other obligations in life? Courtesy would imply that you wouldn’t rush to such a judgment w/o giving someone a reasonable amt of time to respond.

  41. Silverstein,

    Shame my site is currently down, because I responded to your absurd conspiracy theories. Once again, your level of ignorance and lack of correct information is astounding. When my site is back up, you can read my response. I don’t intend to repeat it now.

    First, note the masterful debate style of Aussie Dave. He calls me “Silverstein” in order to show his utter disdain. Ah, a deep stab! Next, note he doesn’t deign to respond to me in my own blog. He refers us all to his own blog to which he hasn’t even provided a link. Is this guy afraid to debate someone on enemy turf??

    But I will say this: you gave your motivations away in your first paragraph:
    “and being ever-ambitious and hungry for recognition of my blog I thought I’d check it out for myself.”

    Ooh, Dave. I’m sure you not “ambitious and hungry for recognition” for your own blog. Of course you are, we all are. And if you do feel that way about your own blog why would you insult someone who felt the same way about their own?

    You’re just pissed you weren’t nominated. Shame you just didnt nominate yourself.

    For the umpteenth time in this comment thread, not true. Couldn’t care less. My gripe has nothing to do with that. I didn’t even know about JIBA untill a wk. ago. I care about your pretence to represent the “Jewish and Israeli” Blog world and call it for what it is. You’ll notice that when Aussie Dave really dislikes someone he doesn’t pay any attention to their argument. You accuse them of something they neither said nor feel. And that settles that (at least in that Aussie’s mind–if not for the rest of ours).

  42. Also Richard, you should edit the post

    Jack said,
    January 15, 2006 @ 12:31 am

    at the end where it says:

    category

    to:

    category

    if you notice the final tag has a as opposed to a which means that every post after that one is considered to be part of one long giant link description. Which is why everything after that particlar line is colored in the “link” color.

    some text here” is what you use for italics. “description” is what you would use for a url-link. Clearly Jack made a typo with a instead of a

    Feel free to delete and ignore this post in your usual cruel and dishonest manner; the way you’ve done with so many others. Yes Richard, people of like mind tend to associate with one another, and they are beginning to comment on your habit.

    If you were wise, you would delete this post, the post right above it (you would have my permission so long as you->> ). Reinstate the post I made before these two, and apologize for the way you’ve dealt with others and resolve to stop deleting people who you just don’t like. That would do your point of view a lot more good than arguments you’ve made on this blog.

    Furthermore you should apologize to Dave for not crediting him with the corrections he’s made to you. People hate it when you don’t give proper credit. And yes, they remark on it, and nothing destroys a bloggers reputation faster than dishonesty. Stupidity people can put up with, everyone is stupid in some way or another, also stubborness, because all the good bloggers are stubborn. But dishonesty is the kiss of death. You should take that very seriously.

    How you act, believe it or not, has a far greater impact than whatever clever arguments you can come up with. And so far, your actions have totally discredited your point of view.

    I would be surprised if you took me up on my suggestions, at this point I do not really think you are “all there”. But feel free to prove me wrong and you will get an apology.

    -ron

  43. WHile it is certainly true that LGF is neither jewish nor israeli, if someone can point out to me anything which the blog PUBLISHERS have written which is racist, I’d like to see it.

    As for commenters, censorship is to be avoided.
    PERIOD.
    If racists DO post, then let the sun shine on them. However, it would do everyone MORE good to concentrate the light on those who practice the oldest racism on this planet. Those who hate arabs have other problems and will be excoriated as matter of course, because we abhor racism. Common sense dictates that we pay attention to organized systems which have racism as an article of faith, not individuals with massive personal problems.

  44. Rachel Carrie MURDERED? By a driver who couldn’t see her as she played her silly and dangerous games in front of the tractor? The machine is heavily armoured and redesigned by the Israelis, after buying it from Caterpillar, to protect the driver, severely limiting his visibility. Your characterization is unfair and uncharitable to the innocent driver; rather, Carrie’s far-left anti-Americanism and terrorist-enabling politics are much more at fault.

    She was more sinning than sinned against, I’m afraid.

  45. Ron: I’ve corrected Jack’s mistake.

    As for being “cruel and dishonest,” I only treat those like you in such a way if you treat me that way first. Your earlier banned comment was offensive & earned you my treatment. As you last comment was only marginally offensive instead of full-bore, it’s been published. You can feel free to publish here as long as you stay back from the red-line.

    As for “deleting people who just don’t like” me. There’s a plethora of comments published here from people who just don’t like me. But they managed (mostly) to dispute my arguments and not insult me personally, which is why they’re here & your earlier comment isn’t.

    As for Dave’s corrections, if he’s made any I’d like to know about it directly from him & preferably in this blog. Not through the mediation of his blog. He’s written me several e mails & never said he made corrections to anything. I’ve asked him to respond substantively to me here several times without success. You may think I’m a cruel brute of a human being. But if anything I’ve said here has caused him or the Post to rethink any of their policies, I’d welcome knowing about it–here.

    I do appreciate your sincere concern for my blogging reputation. But if you think for a second that my reputation–in the eyes of LGF, Israelly Cool or the nasty JIBA bloggers who’ve attacked me here–concerns me in the slightest you’d be sorely mistaken. My reputation among those fellow bloggers, Jews and others whose opinion I value & appreciate is quite intact thank you.

    What you neglect to understand is that it’s the racist nonsense spouted by many commenters here which tarnishes the pro-Israeli hard-right’s reputation in the eyes of all reasonable people who read this blog. In fact, that’s why I don’t ban more comments. I want people to know how inane, churlish and poisonous some of your friends can be. That’s also why I’ve featured the passages from JIBA bloggers here. We should know the nature of Jewish hate–it’s not that different from Muslim hate or Palestinian hate.

    Don’t need yr apology. Don’t want it even if you were willing to give one. As for my actions “discrediting” my point of view. They’re only discredited in your eyes & the eyes of the 2,000 visitors LGF & Israelly Cool sent my way yesterday (thanks btw for sending my site traffic through the roof). But they’re not discredited in the eyes of the 200,000 visitors who read me over a year’s time. Why is it that you’re such a raging egomaniac as to believe that your judgment of me is the objective gold standard of judgments which can’t help but be shared by all reasonable people?

  46. Well, people leave me crude comments all of the time on my blog. I get death threats and what not, but it’s just a comment, so I don’t let it get underneath my skin.

  47. While it is certainly true that LGF is neither jewish nor israeli, if someone can point out to me anything which the blog PUBLISHERS have written which is racist, I’d like to see it.

    I’ve already provided the link here & in my post to LGF Watch which does little else but point out such matters in the pages of Little Green Footballs. Take a look there & you’ll find a gold mine of anti-Arab hate.

    As for commenters, censorship is to be avoided. PERIOD. If racists DO post, then let the sun shine on them.As for commenters, censorship is to be avoided. PERIOD.

    If racists DO post, then let the sun shine on them.

    I don’t usually make it a point of telling other bloggers how they should handle thorny issues like how they treat hate commenters. If you’d read some other posts here you’d find that I have published many, many hateful, bileful poisonous comments for precisely the reasons you’ve mentioned. But once you’ve read every possible permutation of “I hate your guts you lying scumbag leftwing raving lunatic” or “you lyiing sack of shit Jew–we’ll be coming for you come the next Holocaust,” etc. you lose interest in making abstract philosophical points & desire more preserving a modicum of civil discourse.

    And remember my blog is to do with as I see fit. Yours is to do with as you see fit.

  48. I was with you on some stuff to a point. I am a liberal Jew myself and agree with some of youroints. You are off your rocker ( with all due respect) if you accuse CAMERA of ALWAYS crying anti semitism in asking for fair and balamced coverage,

    You maybe want to go to read their stuff and get your facts straight. Much coverage of Israel actually IS anti semetic my friend. Not all, but speaking out against is important when it happens.

    Shame on you for failing to see that. With Jews like you, who needs enemies?

  49. Rachel Carrie MURDERED? By a driver who couldn’t see her as she played her silly and dangerous games in front of the tractor? The machine is heavily armoured and redesigned by the Israelis, after buying it from Caterpillar, to protect the driver, severely limiting his visibility. Your characterization is unfair and uncharitable to the innocent driver.

    And you know what the driver did and didn’t see how? Perhaps you were standing beside him in the cab? Your “account” of what happened that day is one spread by the rabid supporters of the settler movement. There are other accounts which you of course choose to ignore as inconvenient to your propagandistic view of the events.

    By the way, what business does the IDF have using a tractor which “impairs” the driver’s visibility in such a situation as this driver faced? Unless, that is, the IDF cared not a whit for the blood spilt. I’d say the driver’s attitude was similar to the callous one you present here.

    Carrie’s far-left anti-Americanism and terrorist-enabling politics are much more at fault.

    Sure, blame the victim for her own death. That’s a helpful approach.

    She was more sinning than sinned against, I’m afraid.

    Boy, if running over someone in cold blood and killing them isn’t sinning against them then you sure have an awfully deformed moral compass.

  50. I am a liberal Jew myself

    Callie: News flash–if you like CAMERA you’re no liberal. It’s easy enough to be liberal and vote for Democrats here in the U.S. But the true test of democratic values and liberalism is how you view Israel. You appear to hang out ideologically with the LGF types. In which case, you’re on the right-side of the Israel political spectrum. Nothing wrong with that. But don’t fool yourself into thinking you’re “liberal” when it comes to Israel. And btw, who would you vote for in the March Israeli elections? That’s a better test of whether or not you’re truly a “liberal” in the Israeli context.

    You are off your rocker ( with all due respect)

    You DO have to be kidding! Calling me off my rocker shows what? Respect? Again, you’re welcome to be rude if you wish, just don’t try to take it back with the empty gesture of “with all due respect” (when you’ve shown none).

    …If you accuse CAMERA of ALWAYS crying anti semitism in asking for fair and balamced coverage

    Absolutely right, CAMERA wants “fair and balanced” Mideast coverage in precisely the same way that Fox News touts its “fair and balanced” slogan. “Fair and balanced” to hard-right Republicans is Fox’s philosophy. CAMERA’s is “fair and balanced” means a press that ignores Palestinians except when they collaborate with Israel and only saying the nicest of things about Israel and Israelis. Again, nothing wrong with that as long as you admit you are partisan. To pretend that you merely want neutrality is ridiculous as you comment is too.

    You maybe want to go to read their stuff and get your facts straight.

    And maybe I want to do the dentist for a nice root canal job! I’ve read quite enough of that shmata over the 40 years I’ve been interested in this subject. I don’t need your kind advice on how I can brush up my Shakespeare.

    Much coverage of Israel actually IS anti semetic my friend. Not all, but speaking out against is important when it happens.

    “Friend?” Whose friend? We ain’t friends so cut out the veiled sarcasm.

    “Much?” By whose standards? Yours? And why should I or any reasonable person accept your standards as the gold standard? Is there anti-Semitic coverage of Israel? I guess there may be some. But what you really mean to say is that this coverage is ‘anti-Israel’ and you don’t understand the difference between the two terms. Or the terms mean one and the same thing to you.

    I’ve read some far-left anti-Zionist media sites which I’d say are anti-Israel, even anti-Semitic. I don’t like them. But is the NY Times anti-Semitic because James Bennett writes incisive and thoughtful pieces about Palestinians harmed by the Israeli Occupation, when at the same time other NYT reporters are writing parallel stories portraying Israelis in a favorable light? You say “yes,” I say “no.” The reason you say “yes” is that you want NO favorable coverage of Palestinians; or better yet, no coverage of Palestinians at all. If the Palestinians disappeared from the world media that would constitute “fair and balanced,” now wouldn’t it?

    Shame on you for failing to see that. With Jews like you, who needs enemies?

    How innovative your sarcasm is. You’re only the 8th commenter to say this in the four years I’ve been blogging. I am YOUR political enemy, not Israel’s. And you’re a fool for not understanding the difference.

  51. Richard,

    At no time have I offered you an apology. Nor did I even indicate one in any of my posts, even the ones where I tried to be helpful. In fact I did the opposite and reiterated my dissatisfaction with what you write. It did cross my mind to offer one, but I rejected that as being insincere and unworthy. Of course, if someone can show me that I am in error, you will not just get an apology but a thank you for the correction, However, I do not expect that to happen.

    I might have been too blunt when posting in other places regarding you, but I’m not sure I’m wrong in what I wrote either. Rather, perhaps I’ve made some comments too soon or perhaps it is not for me to say one way or another. But I don’t think that’s relevent to what I post here. If I see I’m wrong I’ll apologize, not because you do or do not want me to, but because that is the proper way to act.

    Etiquette is not a joke or a convenience. Not if you want to be taken seriously. If you only wish to preach to the converted, that is your prerogative, but even they will take what you say with a tablespoon of salt if you evidence a lack of civility necessary for an exchange of ideas. Which is why I repeated Dave’s criticism of you in another post.

    As for your lack of concern for what readers of LGF, etc etc. think of you, well, this is not summer camp, and we are not in “Color Wars” where “blue team” must be victorious over “red team” at the final singing competition.

    This is real life, where innocent people are getting murdered, people like yourself call it “misfortune” (my conveniently deleted post illustrated that criticism far better despite your silly over-reaction to it), and families are being destroyed.

    The other day I got into an argument with someone on the right. This person refused to even consider the possibility that Arabs have been stolen from, or that it was worthy of consideration, and became very agitated and overly emotional, etc. Much like how you reacted when I harshly (and justly) criticized your writing. The result? I kept quiet for the sake of the friendship, but I no longer take anything he has to say on the subject seriously. The pity of it is that he has no idea that this is my reaction. But this is the reaction everyone has when they are treated poorly or unfairly in an exchange of ideas. If you shut people down, you lose the ability to influence those same people in any meaningful way. Unless of course, they are sheep to begin with, in which case it hardly matters anyway. Note the word “influence” as opposed to “convince”. My experience has been that you will influence far more people than you will ever convince. Somehow that seems more fitting to me and correct to me.

    But wasn’t that friend I mentioned silly though? How in the world did it help him or his cause to give me a monologue? Did he think that I would walk away from the conversation with a changed view because he rudely shut me down? There is a time and a place for rudeness of course, just like everything else, but that was neither the time or the place.

    You may regard this post as being insulting or disrespectful to you. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn’t. But if you would prefer not to hear what people honestly think of you based on what you write, I can oblige you easily enough.

    -ron

  52. Ron: You indicate you may’ve been “too blunt” in what you’ve said about me in other places. In fact, I’d guess that what you wrote in the comment I deep-sixed was probably comparable to what you published elsewhere. Or perhaps it was toned down since you knew I would read it directly. I think you might want to consider the fact that if you thought you were “too blunt” I might find what you wrote (in that first comment) downright offensive. Pls. keep in mind there’s plenty in these comment threads on the JIBA posts that I found insulting and personally offensive. I only axed comments that went BEYOND these in their level of insult. Yours was one.

    You seem to have at least two manners of presenting yourself online (or I should say here in these threads). The first version is the one I’ve already noted. And the second is the version you’ve exhibited in your last comment. I’m delighted to be disagreed with by someone who does so civilly without calling me ugly names in the process. And your comment was quite thoughtful & decent. I hope you can see that I am civil with those who, even while disagreeing with me, accord me a minimal level of humanity.

    I have also had a civil discussion with a few other commenters here who don’t see things my way. But by and large the commenters here didn’t bother to read what I wrote or if they did they read through the twisted prism of their own ideological viewpoint which refuses to let in light from other sources. The kind of ignorance & intolerance many of those comments represented were responded to by me in roughly the manner their writers offered them.

    I’m not going to get into a semantic debate with you over the terms I use to describe Israeli or Palestinian suffering. I see the suffering on both sides and deplore it for both sides. You clearly believe I’m one-sided. I assure you I’m not and there are blog posts here which might persuade you of what I’m saying. But I freely admit that I post about Israel and Israelis more than I post about Palestine and Palestinians. That’s because I’m a Jew, because I spent two years living in Israel, because I’m a fluent Hebrew speaker and student of Hebrew Literature (MA & ABD in the field), and because I’ve studied the I-P conflict for 40 yrs. It’s also because I believe that Israeli attitudes and policies toward the Palestinians are absolutely crucial in resolving the conflict. Not that such Palestinian attitudes are NOT important. It’s just that I have so much less influence over the Palestinian side of things (though I do maintain contact with several Arab bloggers). Aussie Dave’s criticisms of me show a quite superficial knowledge of me, my background, and what my blog really stands for.

    But I really don’t care that much. I don’t expect that the thousands of visitors LGF & Israelly Cool sent my way the past few days are going to experience a mass conversion to an alternate view of the Jewish/Israeli universe. In fact, judging by the comments, most of them didn’t even bother to really read what I wrote. But I’m still glad they came. If even one of those thousands has an idea about this conflict which they rejected before they came here, then that’s good enough for me.

  53. It’s easy enough to be liberal and vote for Democrats here in the U.S. But the true test of democratic values and liberalism is how you view Israel.

    Sorry but who made you the deus ex machina of criteria to what a LIBERAL is. Maybe everything you believe brands you as a ‘critical progressive’ and no liberal, or using other self created definintions maybe everyone who thinks democracy in places besides the USA and ISrael then becomes, NEO CONS.Maybe you believe that social justice requires equal outcome and that makes a (domestic) liberal. Who knows?

    It’s a stupid label set. If I as someone who worked in civil right in the 60’s, organized anti vietnam protests has a right to that ‘label’ it’s me (and as a democrat who BEFORE 9/11 had NH campaign workers staying in our home for months during primary season).

    Guess what, I see few people I would call liberal. This is all funny.Liberal= HHH, liberal = HST Liberal =FDR. Dick Durbin is NO Liberal. Cynthia Mckinney is NO liberal. Juian Bond is NO liberal.

    As for Israel so sorry, but to be ANYTHING you first have to be there. As you ought to know MR Silrverstein, the HAMAS charter makes it clear that unless there is going to be a Palestinian Altalena of some kind, there is NOTHING to discuss(Irsael is a muslim waqf..those are not idle words for some negotiating position), and it’s a war of survival,.Nevermind if they actuaslly form a govt. Moreover as you ought to know as well, in the last three years polls have shown that 58% or MORE of the palestinians peolpe believe in HUDNA not peace, just a waystation on the path to NO Israel. These are unpleasant facts. They are not pliable as either liberal, neo or paleocon or progressive. They are. Nothing ameliorates an occupation, and nothing also amerliorates the fact that arabs make laws that jews follow in Israel. The reverse is true nowhere. That’s not a justification, just a fact. If no peace but islamic peace is possible then separation begins to look pretty liberal compared to permanant occupation (which Dayan and Eban called poison pill).

    If you think that is going to be accomplished with anything other than rough means (which is neither liberal nor conservative), time to reread Conrad Black (FDR), Davisd Mccullogh (Truman) and Michael Beschloss (The Conquerors), when you’re done, reread Qutb and Azzam.

    As far as LGF sorry I missed your links , nor are they obvous to me in a re-read. I can’t see them as anything more than a sarcastic MEMERI with comments. Perhaps you would be kind enough to post them in a comment. I troll by and don’t read everything every day at LGF so it’s possible Johnson posts racist comments, but I’d like to judge for myself. Nothing against your judgement, but for all I know you think Norman Finklestein and Howard Zinn are the creme de la creme (and no they are not liberal).

  54. Sorry but who made you the deus ex machina of criteria to what a LIBERAL is.

    Deus ex machina is a feature of Shakespearean plays and not apt in this situation.

    And you seem to forget, it’s my blog. I provide my views. You take ’em or leave ’em. Several commenters here have claimed to be “liberal.” This is cleary a debating tactic they attempt to use in order to say “I’m a liberal, I know what a liberal is, and you sir, are no liberal.” But those who make this claim are no Lloyd Bentsens either. They’re just propaganda flacks for Israel’s right wing. It is possible that they truly believe they are liberal in a similar sense to those racists who swear up and down there isn’t a racist bone in their bodies. And I have no doubt they’re sincere in this belief.

    Just as an example, I wrote a post here criticizing a liberal site, Democrats.com, which supports the Democratic party, because the moderator had called into question my loyalty to the United States because I said that the U.S. should get involved in helping the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. That jerk has the chutzpah to claim that he isn’t an anti-Semite and HE BELIEVES IT.

    So just because commenters here who claim CAMERA is God’s gift to Mideast journalism claim they are liberal doesn’t make it so. It speaks volumes to their self-delusion or deliberate deception.

    Guess what, I see few people I would call liberal. This is all funny.Liberal= HHH, liberal = HST Liberal =FDR. Dick Durbin is NO Liberal. Cynthia Mckinney is NO liberal. Juian Bond is NO liberal.

    I think you just shot your whole theory that you’re a liberal. You mention in your comment that you volunteered in the New Hampshire Democractic primary. I bet it was for Joe Lieberman. If so, I’ve no wonder that a Joe Lieberman supporter would find Dick Durbin “no liberal.” But I got news for you–Joe Lieberman couldn’t get elected dogcatcher in the national party. So if you’re a “liberal” like Joe is one, it’s no wonder that you’re disaffected from such Democrats. But what you really should be saying is that “I’m a conservative Democrat” or even “I’m a moderate Democrat.” No shame in that. The Democratic Leadership Council is a worthy group even if I don’t agree with much of what it stands for. But don’t go tryin’ to make us believe that you’re “liberal.”

    As for Israel so sorry, but to be ANYTHING you first have to be there.

    That is one sorry-ass argument. It’s as old as the hills and lost any cogency about the time Truman left the White House.

    Moreover as you ought to know as well, in the last three years polls have shown that 58% or MORE of the palestinians peolpe believe in HUDNA not peace, just a waystation on the path to NO Israel.

    These are unpleasant facts.

    ‘Fraud’ is more like it. My blog has 5-6 posts which quote large sections of polling surveys of Palestinian and Israeli public opinion about these and related issues. They are jointly conducted by the Hebrew University and a Palestinian academic polling organization. I don’t have the energy or time to go and ferret out the statistics. If you really care to know what the polls really found, you may do a search on ‘Israeli poll’ or ‘Palestinian poll’ in my blog search box and read what Palestinians REALLY believe instead of what someone who deeply mistrusts them (or worse) believes. A sizable majority of Palestinians are in favor of a resolution of the conflict that would recognize Israel’s existence. A strong majority reject Hamas’ views on this question. THAT, is fact. What you wrote above is what you THINK fact is.

    …Arabs make laws that jews follow in Israel…That’s not a justification, just a fact.

    Again, more questionable ‘facts.’ I’d challenge you to find a single law that an Arab Knesset legislator “made” which Jews follow. What you can legitimately say is that Israel allows “its” Arabs to vote for Knesset and that there are a few Arab representatives who sit there. They are an (unfortunately) shunned minority affiliated with none of the larger Jewish parties. There used to be a few affiliated with Labor but I don’t believe that’s the case anymore.

    As far as LGF sorry I missed your links , nor are they obvous to me in a re-read. I can’t see them as anything more than a sarcastic MEMERI with comments. Perhaps you would be kind enough to post them in a comment. I troll by and don’t read everything every day at LGF so it’s possible Johnson posts racist comments, but I’d like to judge for myself.

    Steve Kelso posted this link in this thread to an LGF Watch post about anti-Muslim (akin to Rachel Corrie “pancake jokes”) comments ‘celebrating’ the Hajj stampede in Mecca last week. That’s a good start. After that, riff through LGF Watch & you’ll find tons of other links to LGF’s “trash talk” about Arabs.

    Nothing against your judgement, but for all I know you think Norman Finklestein and Howard Zinn are the creme de la creme (and no they are not liberal).

    I haven’t read Finkelstein’s book, but I despise Alan Dershowitz so I’m sympathetic to any book taking him to task. However, I understand that Finkelstein is an anti-Zionist or something close to it, a view I don’t share.

  55. Mr SIlverstein I thank you for your response.

    You have self identified (Lieberman comment) as a critical progressive, who is prima facie evidence of the why the democratic party today at the national level is a REPUBLICAN VOTING MACHINE. MOVEON, George Soros, the idiot from Progressive Insurance, and Dr. Dean couldn’t be more helpful to the Republican party then if they just SENT IN THEIR RAISED CONTRIBUTIONS. Yes I supported Lieberman. I also housed Bradley workers, and Simon workers. But this ain’t then. The very fact that you are correct about Lieberman in the democratic party reveals the horrific truth about the party today. It is dying. Not for the members who become more and more base playing, but for growth. Don’t bother quoting a poll, we have one every 4 years for the only person elected nationally. That is the inarguable objective reality. Unless the election is ALL about domestic policy there IS no chance.

    Your response about I don’t have time for this or that belies the truth that you FEAR a ‘battle of sources’ (not for public exposure, but because it is liable to challenge you articles of faith ..I speak with gulf arabs very frequently and as this has affected me, such challenges should enhance not threaten your opinions). The poll I quoted is a palestinian poll. IT’s about 2-3 years old and was the last such poll taken, the 58% is a real number. Your reaction is unfortunately shirkingly TYPICAL of those on the left (NOT LIBERALS) who when faced with reasoned opposition of ideas and alternate ‘facts’ which challenge the opinions they have formed, refuse such debate. Instead they resort to critcisms of style. Your commenton the ‘aptness’ of ‘deus ex machina’ is also de rigeur for such opposition, is signifies nothing regarding facts. I notice you adroitly AVOID HAMAS since there is no solution and no peace possible so long as they exist.
    Fine.

    BTW the your links just above, AS I STATED EARLIER, regarding LGF refer to commenters NOT posts. The challenge still stands. Find a racist post BY Mr. Johnson. The page you refer to are 100% outside commenters. Are they reprehensible? Have you reasd Kos’s commenters? Is he responsible for gavones posting there? If such a post by Mr. Johnson can be found I have an open mind, and don’t want to be reading racists. But neither am I impressed by smears based on what commenters freely say.

    W/rgd to Israel – do arab members OPPOSE all laws voted into existence in the Knesset? Does Russ Feingold not make laws by free participation? He also does not have to worry that his open contribution to lawmaking will not one day come back to find him in the person of a salafi knocking on his door with a sweet little takfir message. How many jewish members in the Iranian parliament speak their mind freely opposing the Pasdaran? Oh wait.. there is no free parliament since the ulema-guardian council determines who is fit to be a candidate.

    By the way despising Dershowitz as you seem to may find you one day holding hands with Finklestein and his best bud, mentor and academic supporter Noam…who of course supports the folks (Faurisson et al) who think Ann Frank never existed to write her little book, let alone the 6 million. Careful there. Finkelstein’s raison d’etre is to prove the Holocaust is an exagerrated money raising industry for jews.

  56. Hey Ep,

    So when Charles uses a comment at ummah.com he is wrong to use it as a representative view of Islam as a whole? Perhaps you should talk to the ponytailed one yourself, he seems happy enough to castigate Kos and others because of their commentators…..how come his are a protected species?

    As for accusing Richard of one day holding hands with Holocaust deniers….well that’s just a step away from the usual cries of anti-Semitism where there is none–a view favoured by LGF, Israpundit and morons like Atlas Shrugs.

  57. DR- Actually, like Drudge, I use LGF for the articles it points out more than anything else. I hardly EVER read the comments (who has time – they are out of control in volume). I PARTICIPATE in Gulf arab forums and need no explanation about any ‘ummah.com’, but the folks I have discourse with are engineers, bankers, and IT people so what is pointed out about ‘ummah.com’ is irrelevant to me, and so is what Kos commenters say, or Democratic Underground, or Freerepuiblic, etc. If LGF rags on commenters elsewhere it’s a big yawn (My comenters are better than yours?). But when they rag on what is said at Al Azhar as being representative of Islam, and it matches what the salafis I talk to say, I know what is real, so sorry. That is different. But his isn;t abotu that, it’s about what LGF POSTS, not what commetners say, or what KOS commenters say.

    I make the following points
    1) Arabs vote in Israel, and while a minority, DO make laws, and participate every day -to whatever degree THEY wish
    2) No peace is currently possible thru any kind of negotiations since HAMAS finds Israel is by quranic definition, IMPOSSIBLE. It is a muslim waqf, and the quran is immutable and the perfect word of god. This doesn’t mean Israel doesn’t try to find a partner, or does things like ‘transfer’ etc. It merely recongnizes the impossibility of peace with palestinians – (who are about to reward HAMAS in the voting booth) – TODAY. Tomorrow is not today.Right now there is no point in giving anything up thru NEGOTIATIONS (not the same as what they did in Gaza which was IMHO- right)
    3) Only 2 states can be a solution
    4) Since 1936, the arabs who happen to be in the Trans-Jordan, have at every chance to have a peace, rejected it because of what HAMAS stands for. It is RELIGIOUS, not politcal. This makes any long term solution tenuous if possible at all. I OBSERVE this fact.

    I didn’t accuse Richard of holding hands with deniers.. I simply WARN him about Finklestein. If he holds the views he claims to espouse he will find Finklestein as execrable as I do. This is apart from anything else. However that Finkelstein and Noam consipired with each other to accuse Mr. Dershowitz of plagiarism etc, and that Noam actively supports Finklestein, and that Noam is not only a supporter of racist morons (for what HE claims are free speech reasons….puuuleeeze) but also believes like MANY critical progressives (Zinn, Ward Churchill, Eric Foner, Hobsbawn, etc) that the USA was monstrous at its inception and thus cannot help but be monstrous thru the ages cannot be argued.They are all what Felix Dzherzinsky would call ‘useful idiots’.

    I wish Richard would explain why he ‘despises’ Dershowitz. That is why FInkelstein was mentioned, it mimics exactly the word Finkelstein (a darling of the arabs) uses

  58. This is my opinion on it

    Finklestein had every right to accuse Dershowitz of plagiarism and sloppy writing. Having read ‘The Case for Israel’. Norman Finkelstein makes many valid points. I disagree with him on many aspects of his work, for example some of his writings of the Holocaust ‘industry’, but I don’t forgive Dershowitz of his errors simply because he opposes Finkelstein. Wether Finkelstein and Chomskey conspired is debatable, but the fact thaat Dershowitz not only seemed to plagiarize, research badly and get important figures wrong is undisputable. Even he admits to using the sources, making the errors and in part badly researching certain facts. He also mis-represents B’Tselem on many occasions, a charge that he stil denies, but it’s in his book in black and white.

    LGF’s problem is that Charles posts, post after post of copy and pasted news articles with the intent of stirring his commentators up. No matter the authenticity or the relevance, as long as a negative spin can be put on the Islamic faith as a whole he does it. While I agree that comments section can be written off as meaningless, if Charles want’s to distance himself from the extremists on his site……then pointing out extremists in other peoples comments section is a tad hypocritical. In answer to your points.

    1) And what’s wrong with that? Are you suggesting that Israeli Arabs are stripped of their right to vote/participate/legislate in the Israeli democratic process?

    2) Peace is never impossible. If it was we may as well all commit suicide now. Peace is possible, dialogue needs to be sought. Clear instruction and aid from the US, UN and the rest of the world including concessions by both Israelis and Palestinians is needed.

    3) Agree totally. The Palestinian Administration needs to be afforded the same rights to exist and develop as a new nation as Israel has. Israel needs to be afforded the right to exist and to be terrorist free from the fledgling Palestinian States also, it’s a difficult situation but it’s something that must be solved. The ‘old LGF comments section’ answer of transfering them or less politely killin the ‘ragheads’ is and never was the answer.

    4) Did Hamas exist in 1936? The Arabs have had the chance for peace, and so have the Israelis. Many opportunities have been squandered by both sides. Looking forward is the answer not looking at the failures of the past and apportioning blame. Peace is possible. That is my opinion. Your opinion is the opposite. Don’t call it a FACT because neither of us can claim that.

  59. No peace is currently possible thru any kind of negotiations since HAMAS finds Israel is by quranic definition, IMPOSSIBLE.

    I don’t care how many Arab forums you participate in or how well you believe you understand Islam, you only understand it through you own distorted lens. That is not a clear lens, but a clouded one.

    First, Hamas does not control the Palestinian agenda, the PA does. Or that is it will until it immolates itself by the fire of its own incompetence & the Israeli governments utter unwillingness to aid a legitimate partner.

    It is a muslim waqf, and the quran is immutable and the perfect word of god.

    Yet another dreary distortion by contending that what the Palestinians believe about the current political situation is dictated by the Koran. I can’t remember whether I challenged you or another commenter to read my posts about Palestinian public opinion. A minority (though growing) support Hamas. And they do NOT support Hamas because of its interpretation of Koranic doctrine. They support it because it appears honest. It appears able to perform social services. It appears to be against corruption & lawlessness. It appears able to do everything that Fatah is not able to do. If Hamas wins the upcoming election it will not because of Islam but because of political utility. The party that gets things done will win. Not the party with the right doctrine.

    This doesn’t mean Israel doesn’t try to find a partner

    There IS a partner, just not one you like. And btw, if the PA & Hamas are not partners, who is? Perhaps we should bring back the Village Leagues, Israel’s first attempt to create a wedge against Fatah in the 1980s? It’s 2nd attempt was a little too successful–Hamas. Yes, Israel helped create Hamas. You don’t hear the Shin Bet bragging about that ‘beautiful’ idea.

    It merely recongnizes the impossibility of peace with palestinians

    This is utter cynicism of the darkest kind. It only means that thousands more Israelis & Palestinians will die because of self-defeating prophecies like this one.

    Only 2 states can be a solution

    I see. You want Palestinians to have a state of their own, but don’t believe in negotiations toward that goal. Sounds sensible to me.

    4) Since 1936, the arabs who happen to be in the Trans-Jordan, have at every chance to have a peace, rejected it because of what HAMAS stands for. It is RELIGIOUS, not politcal. This makes any long term solution tenuous if possible at all. I OBSERVE this fact.

    DR has pointed out to you already that what you see are facts are merely opinions, yours. And they’re opinions not borne out by history. First, do you understand the difference between nationalism and religion? There was hardly an Islamic element to the Palestinian cause until that Israeli creation called Hamas came along. The Palestinians before then were nationalists & their opposition to Israel was based on nationalism.

    And your understanding of religious tradition is completely impoverished. You incorrectly view Islam as an immutable religion. It is not. No religion is. Some are more stubborn and hopelessly immobile (viz. Catholic Church) than others. But none are immutable. Not only that, but Islam itself is not the monolith you make it out to be. You are merely using the religion as a strawman to justify your lack of belief and trust in the peace process.

    I simply WARN him about Finklestein. If he holds the views he claims to espouse he will find Finklestein as execrable as I do.

    Why do you and so many others who came to comment on the JIBA posts seem to have so much advice for me on what I should read or think? I don’t need you to warn me about anything or anyone. Frankly, IF Finklestein IS execrable, then Dershowitz is far worse. Besides being a liar, he is a two faced turncoat from his own expressed beliefs. Did you know that several decades ago he used to defend the civil rights of Israeli Arabs in courts? Then he was a man I could believe in. Now he just bloviates on cable news. While his views on U.S. domestic politics are generally congenial to mine, on Israeli politics he’s an AIPAC apologist for hardline Israeli policies. Oh, and did I mention he was an egomaniac with delusions of grandeur (his own)?

    Finkelstein and Noam consipired with each other to accuse Mr. Dershowitz of plagiarism

    What is it about Noam Chomsky that so gets under some Jews’ skin? It’s like he’s the old turncoat Jew who converted to Christianity and denounced his former co-religionists. It reminds me of how the Amsterdam Jewish community treated Baruch Spinoza. He had ideas that deviated from normative Judaism, therefore they excommunicated him. Made him persona non grata. Now, guess whose ideas are known the world over? Whose name do you remember, Spinoza’s or the rabbi who signed the herem decree?

    I’m not saying Chomsky is a Spinoza. But the community’s treatment is not very dissimilar. Got news for you. Jews don’t have to believe the same thing. We can even each believe things diametrically opposite from our Jewish neigbors. Unlike you, I welcome Noam Chomsky into my Jewish community. I don’t agree with him on the Mideast. But he belongs among us as much as Aussie Dave and his readers.

    I wish Richard would explain why he ‘despises’ Dershowitz. That is why FInkelstein was mentioned, it mimics exactly the word Finkelstein (a darling of the arabs) uses

    Well, gosh golly, I’m guilty. Because I said I despise Dershowitz that MUST mean I have precisely the same beliefs as Finkelstein about Dershowitz and the Mideast. Now doesn’t it?

  60. Interesting that inevitably the defense of critical progressives turns to niener-niener

    I don’t care how many Arab forums you participate in or how well you believe you understand Islam, you only understand it through you own distorted lens. That is not a clear lens, but a clouded one.

    Sorry fellah, but after that experience I ‘sat down’ with a mullah and 2 imams. If my lens is distorted it’s theirs as well. “It’s the salafis, stupid” They were very frank, no threatening and all three tried to convince of the rightness and goodness of the Message. I understand.
    THEY have the quran on their side, and the only muslims on ours will be those whose conscience forbids the actions the quran prescribes.
    That is why when a muslim demonstration against terrorism was organized to great fanfare, less than 50 people showed up, or is this new information?
    That is why the Al-Sheikh family in KSA (the DIRECT descendent of Ibn Wahab who CONTROL religious theory) continues to promote malignancy aligned with the muslim brotherhood (whose branch in Palestine is known as HAMAS)
    I cite fact and you say my lens is distorted.
    WHAT HAVE YOU READ, DONE, UNDERSTOOD? Have you read Qutb, Azzam?

    Have you read all of 5:32 or do you think the Quran actually says ‘killing 1 man is like killing the universe’?
    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html
    Take your pick and find quranic dissimulation for yourself. That’s not out of contest, what we are TOLD is out of context. The whole quran, senna and hadiths are there, read it (if you can)

    Maybe YOU have sat down with Bat Yeor to discuss how it IS
    When faced by inconvenient facts your response is simply…your ideas are distorted?

    First, HAMAS does not control the Palestinian agenda, the PA does. Or that is it will until it immolates itself by the fire of its own incompetence & the Israeli governments utter unwillingness to aid a legitimate partner.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/11/international/middleeast/11palestinians_iht.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1136983060-hlIiVo1xCyTnamSHiZnM4A
    The PA can’t get the dog catcher out to catch dogs, get it?
    The PA are the guys with no Israel on the map as well
    The PA are the guys teaching 9 year old kids it’s good to be a martyr on KIDS TV SHOWS
    They are NOT like the United Mine Worker’s Union holding out for a better deal.
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060114/pl_nm/mideast_un_usa_dc
    But you are correct that HAMAS is regarded as honest. They are, and among other things they honestly are required by their religion to make all jews and Christians .. dhimmis, gone, or dead.
    Just ask the Mayor of Bethlehem, who is going to have to pay the Jizya since HAMAS now runs the city. Anyone reading this who doesn’t know what jizya is, shame on you.
    The PA is almost certainly done. HAMAS will take 35-40%, and may be the formative agent in the next govt. Either way unless there is an Arab Altalena, Israeli parallels would have had Irgun and the Stern gang in control in 1948 which is why Ben Gurion ordered Rabin to attack the ship (and Begin).
    There can be no compromise with HAMAS. There is nothing to discuss. That’s not me saying it, it’s them. It’s Abdullah Azzam saying it. It’s their charter saying it.
    http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
    Don’t take my word, read it yourself.
    …………………………….
    “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

    “The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. ”

    “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

    The only hope for peace is that the palestinian people finally reject terrorism (as being counterproductive to their own needs), and accept that Israel is going to be there beyond the idea of HUDNA (which you also ignore)
    This will never happen as long as HAMAS exists (unless they become a vestigial KKK which will require public and private excoriation, and real action)

    And btw, if the PA & HAMAS are not partners, who is?

    NO ONE, and that is the problem PRECISELY.
    Sometimes the best thing you can do, the least expensive in lives(all lives) and treasure is to WAIT. Therefore, btw, the WALL.
    ……………………………

    Frankly I really don’t care about Chomsky’s religion, and never thought about it. I HAVE thought about his ideas about reality, and I reject his totally socialist, dictatorial, venomous views utterly.
    His incredible dissimulation when caught LIVE by Mr Dershowitz lying about his book dedication for Faurisson was one of the most disgusting episodes I have ever seen.
    He’s a very talented linguist, and a hypocrite par excellence, which is why this believer in social justice and socialism charges for downloads from his site (which are freely available elsewhere), and still tells the NYT this is best country on earth
    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/02/magazine/02QUESTIONS.html?ex=1136350800&en=e9d30c6bd1cdf355&ei=5070
    http://www.jbooks.com/interviews/index/IP_Dershowitz.htm#_edn20
    Chomsky, who finds us montrous from inception, won’t leave because he ACTUALLY believes Lincoln (that we are the last best hope), but criminals all?
    His STUPID treatise on preventative/preemptive war IS the reason for my username. The greatest refutation of that idiocy imaginable.

    You seem to debate on feelings not facts.

    btw, as to your left handed admission of lack of racism on the part of Mr Johnson’s quotes (why is he stirring up his readers) …WHY IS MEMRI?
    They do they same thing don’t they? They quote ‘moderate’ muslims with the same kind of frequency, don’t they? Or are they as distasteful as well?
    FINIS

  61. The British BNP posts articles simmilar to Mr Johnson on their website, they are Nazis. A court in the UK has found that calling them faschist is acceptable. Are they not racists?

    They are of course and so is Mr Johnson. Remember Amnesty International calling Guantanamo the Gulag of our time? What was Mr Johnson’s first reaction. He questioned the motivation and the religion of the spokesperson on the basis of her name. He assumed that because she had a Islamic sounding name that she was driven by some sort of Jihadi mission (despite AI’s harsh criticism of Islamic states and the person in questions record of standing up for women’s rights in both the Islamic world and in other nations). Mr Johnson is a bigot. Feeding a large pool of bigots.

  62. Go to LGF, search for Irene Khan.

    I don’t particularly want to go swimming in that swamp today.

    PS Any answer to the difference between the BNP’s website and Charles Johnson’s?

  63. Never seen BNP don;t care to… but if I ran around comparing ‘critical progressive’ sites to what was said from Sept 1 1939 to June 22 1941I might conclude they are all identical to communist stooges who justified Stalin’s wonderful pact.

    Have YOU ever looked at the archives at LGF prior to 9/11?

    Busy today., but I will look for Irene Khan…all over

  64. My point btw . is that they are not equivalent..
    but if I ran around comparing ‘critical progressive’ sites to what was said from Sept 1 1939 to June 22 1941I might conclude they are all identical to communist stooges who justified Stalin’s wonderful pact.

  65. Actually yes I have looked at the LGF archive.s, that’s part of the tragedy. That reasonable balanced human being interested in coding and cycling could become a bedwetting, Muslim hating Republican shill so quickly is frightening.

  66. I grew-up a proud Jew.

    Watching what has unfolded in Gaza has broken my heart. It is clear to me that Israeli soldiers are deliberately targeting civilians. They are on a rampage.

    I can’t take it. I have burned my yarmulke and thrown out our menorah.

    I told my wife that we will raise our children as secular humanists. She, crying, agreed.

    The IDF can now take its place in history with the perpetrators of pogroms, the inquisition, and agents of terror and horror though-out history.

    I hope that the trees planted in Israel in my name on the event of my bar mitzvah wither.

    Heart broken in NYC.

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