As I said, the only war heroes are those who refuse to take part, like Augustin Aguayo, who refused to load his weapon the entire time he was in Iraq, and later refused to go back to Iraq for a second “tour of duty”; or like Ehren Watada; or like any of the by now thousands who have realized the truth, and refused to be part of the U.S.’s aggressions.

When I said that a soldier should not base their decision to fight or not, on ethnicity, I meant it in terms of, you can be sharing your ethnicity with millions of people. In order to be in the military, I believe you have to be a citizen of that country. You do owe loyalty to that country. At any time you can be a conscious objector. I will not be the one judging you as to whether you were right or not. You will be court martial, the result of it, I don’t know.

That is what a conscious objector is, they stand for what they believe in and are willing to take the consequences. We they refuse to take part in war crimes, immoral act, etc They get respect and admiration.

I’m not American, I don’t know their recruiting methods. They may be deplorable, but I can’t help you there. I don’t have solution for you.

If the US were so concerned about domestic protection against invaders, why did they take so many National Guardsmen and send them to Iraq? I know of one man, age 52, who was a reservist and found himself getting shipped out to Baghdad.

The incredible sin of the military is that it lies to its members, sells them a bill of goods full of bluster about patriotism and freedom, when all it in fact does is further the interests of US corporations overseas. It takes advantage of the poor by promising free college education in exchange for military service. It flourishes at the expense of communities whose economies are hardest hit by recession and whose young people cannot find jobs to support their families.

The US military is a monster; it is about 100 times bigger than the next largest army in the world. It gobbles up tax money in a gluttonous frenzy while the American people can’t even afford decent health care and schools.

Julie, the question is secondary and totally meaningless if one can live with “it” or not. The question, or rather should I say fact is that your victim/victims are no longer living period.

If I may, if you aren’t familiar with him, suggest the “Blowback” series by Chalmers Johnson. Also, you brought up Vietnam. Go to google video and watch the longest version offered of “Sir, No Sir”. It was the military from within who put an end to our misdeeds there, those who were were not willing to service the military machine anymore when it was NOT defending our country, but rather was fighting only one of many (by this I mean other interventions by the US-CIA coups in Latin America, overthrow of Mousadaq etc.-propping of of dictatorships) of it’s imperialistic illbegotten wars.

As for those who enlist, the reasons are so numerous, financial, education, the idea that you ARE defending your country no matter what they tell you to do, an urge to participate yourself in the killing of the “enemy”, family tradition, and others. Problem is, your victim doesn’t give a flying fig leaf what YOUR reasons are, they are either occupied or DEAD.

I don’t believe you are thinking empathetically at all. I wonder whether you would feel that way if you knew that you could be ordered to take actions that could cause the deaths of people who could very well be related to you.

“I do believe that if you join the military by choice, you are expected to go where you are deployed.”

Of course you are expected to do that, and are you saying that if you are ordered to take part in a war of aggression, you should just simply shut up and do it? If so, we certainly do not agree.

I repeat: When was the last time the U.S. military was used to defend the country or to help others who asked for help (other than huksters and criminals like Ahmand Chalabi, that is?).

“you don’t agree with these wars, DON’T join the military, because otherwise you’re going to be pulled into them.”

When Major Hasan and many others joined the military the United States was not attacking, bombing, and occupying Arab or Muslim countries like it was going out of style. They are not psychics and could not have anticipated what would happen. It is wrong to require them to unwillingly participate in killing their own people.

And once again, you are ignoring many realities, including the manner in which recruitment takes place, which, as I said, is often unrelenting and deliberately deceptive. You are overlooking the age and level of sophistication of most recruits, not to mention the fact that many of them see it, especially now, as the only “job” they can get, and the only way to have a roof over their heads and food on the table. Perhaps you are also unaware of the heavy indoctrination that takes place even before they join the military, and the lies they are told about what these “wars” are about.

There are those who join the military with stars in their eyes thinking they will be helping to “liberate women”, or “bring democracy to the Eyerackians”, or “protect the country” only to find that reality is quite different. Once they come face to face with the ugly, bloody, filthy things they will be ordered to do to their fellow humans and other living things, and to the environment; once they find out that “helping others” really means killing, maiming them, destroying their lives and property, and the very physical and social structures that make human life possible it goes against every human impulse they have, and they are no longer willing to abandon their humanity and sell their souls in this way. They deserve the highest possible praise for having the courage to refuse to take part any more. They are the only real war heroes.

I’m not going to repeat what I’ve already said to Shirin. Overall, I agree with you, other than I don’t believe that your reason to go to war as a soldier, should be based on ethnicity but rather on on whether the war is just or not. Again, if you have an issue with the wars currently being waged, don’t join the military.

I used the example of the Vietnam war because it was the best example I could think of but I’m not American, I’m Canadian. Our recruiting tactics are probably not that different. I’m not sure how deceitful the recruiting is but the reasons given, for your country or mine to go to war is based on misleading propaganda, and fear. Whoever we are to go to war with, any government will make absolutely sure we are convinced of how evil the other people are. Most people don’t believe their governments could be lying to them. I was never for the Iraq war or the attack on Afganistan because of 9/11.

AS for the young people that join the military, they may not realize how bad war can be, but I’m not totally convinced that they are naive about it. It’s too much in the news. It is a carreer choice.

PS I do believe that if you join the military by choice, you are expected to go where you are deployed. That does not mean that you can not take a stand and refuse to do an immoral act, but war is killing. There is a very high probability you will be responsible for the death of innocence people, even if the event that took place was not classified as a war crime. The question is, can you live with it.

I would never join the military and I do not support war crimes of any type, that is not what I’m suggesting. Of course you should abstain from killing civilian or carrying out any and all immoral act. That was not my point.

I’m not from a military family, I don’t know anyone in the military and no, I would not care for my children to be in the military, if I had any. But, yes, I do belive my country needs a military to defend itself and to come to the help of others, if asked. For that, people have to join, we don’t have conscription.

If you make the military, your career, you will go to war in place that you may not want to be. You may be a Jew and be asked to kills Jews, or Muslim and be asked to kill Muslims, etc… You can’t base your choice, on who’s ok and who’s not. Your decision should not be based on ethnicity but on whether the war is right or not. If that’s a problem for you, DON’T joint the military. Most wars that I’m aware of right now, are morally questionable. Again, you don’t agree with these wars, DON’T join the military, because otherwise you’re going to be pulled into them. If your country does not have conscription, stay out! If it does, and you are against it, be a conscience objector. That was my point. Go out in the street and protest.

I’m not warmonger. I’m not going to debate the value of war with you. You are not picking a fight with the right person here.