Shministim, Israeli Refusers, to Speak in Seattle « Tikun Olam-תיקון עולם: Make the World a Better Place

Shministim, Israeli Refusers, to Speak in Seattle

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19 Responses to “Shministim, Israeli Refusers, to Speak in Seattle”

Moje says:

September 9, 2009 at 10:14 AM

No doubt that in the Q&A session these two honorable women of conscience will have to put up with scathing criticism from audience members of the right. Such was the case with Major Rami Kaplan (plus one) when he toured the UK in 2002.

You can watch a video of Major Kaplan here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqYpCcGI380

The video begins with a Jewish woman heckling “If you were my son, I would kill you!” One young man asks “Why are you here? Why come to the world and tell lies about Israel?” before he sits down to sulk (the expression on his face speaks volumes.) Another woman claimed that nothing positive could come from refuseniks touring the world outside of Israel. Such strong sentiments. I wonder how many of them have served. What the audience did not seem to understand is that whilst military service is honorable when your nation is at war, when your nation is a brutal occupier and your service consists of maintaining that brutality – on a daily basis – then you are at war with your conscience. In that sense, the one who refuses is far more honorable than the one who does not.

I hope Maya Wind and Netta Mishly are prepared. I hope their tour goes well. And I wish them all the best.

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- Richard Silverstein says:
  
  September 9, 2009 at 12:40 PM
  
  We do have our share of right wing pro Israel extremists here in Seattle (& I’ve written about a few of them). But our city has a reputation for openness & tolerance (sometimes even earned) so it’s my hope that this will be their reception. We’ll deal w. any idiots who may come along if they do.
  
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  - Moje says:
    
    September 9, 2009 at 12:51 PM
    
    Any chance of filming one of the talks and posting it to the web?
    
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    - Shirin says:
      
      September 9, 2009 at 1:16 PM
      
      I second that excellent idea. Please do record the talks!
      
      Reply
Shirin says:

September 9, 2009 at 10:58 AM

“military service is honorable when your nation is at war”

Not really, not at all. Military service is only honourable when your country is actually defending itself.

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- Moje says:
  
  September 9, 2009 at 11:21 AM
  
  True, but what nation isn’t defending itself or an ally in a war?
  
  What I was trying to say is that putting your life on the line for others is honorable. But in the case of Israel/Palestine, standing up against the occupation and refusing is more so because the alternative is maintaing the daily humiliation of the other side.
  
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  - Shirin says:
    
    September 9, 2009 at 12:37 PM
    
    When was the last time the United States used its military for defense? Come to think of it, when was the last time Israel used its military for defense? In fact, the only truly defensive war Israel has fought was 1973. Some would argue that 1948 was a defensive war, but there is plenty of evidence that points in a different direction.
    
    Iraq’s war against Iran was not defensive, at least not in the beginning, nor was its war on Kuwait.
    
    And so on.
    
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    - Moje says:
      
      September 9, 2009 at 1:07 PM
      
      Israel’s war in Gaza was allegedly in self-defense. I don’t agree with that but it’s what they believed. Didn’t Bush argue that he went to war with Iraq to defend the west against Saddam’s 45 minute WMDs?
      
      Besides, a war of defense is not limited to protecting ones borders. Wars have been fought in defense of ideologies.
      
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      - Shirin says:
        
        September 9, 2009 at 1:28 PM
        
        Well, this is where you argument goes completely to pieces, I am afraid, since they also claim the occupation – AND the colonization – of Palestine is necessary for security and self defense. In fact, from the very beginning of the colonization project in 1967 they used self-defense/security as their rationale, calling them “security settlements”.
        
        And I don’t believe for one nanosecond that the Israeli government actually believed the assault on Gaza (I cannot bring myself to call a massive attack on a caged, mostly defenseless population a war – just cannot manage to choke out the word in that context) was self-defense. They admitted themselves how effective the ceasefire was. They knew that for the first time in a long time the residents of Sderot had more or less normal lives, and they know exactly what would happen, and how it would affect the security of residents in the South when they made their well-planned provocative attacks in November. Ditto for Bush’s aggression against Iraq. Sorry, but lies about self-defense do not count as self-defense.
        
        As for wars in defense of ideologies, give me one example of a war that was fought to defend an ideology, and tell me against what was this ideology being defended. I know of wars ostensibly fought to spread ideologies, but even then if you look beneath the surface you will discover that the ideology was only a pretext and that the war was really about something quite differnt
      - Moje says:
        
        September 9, 2009 at 3:52 PM
        
        Like you, I don’t believe the Gaza war was self-defense but in its early days the Israeli government of the time claimed it was. Neither of us is in a position to say they didn’t believe it was self-defense at the time even though they said it was because neither of us has the ability to read minds.
        
        The same goes for the occupation and colonization of Palestine being necessary for the security and self-defense of the zionist state. You and I both know that that’s bull but it doesn’t mean that they don’t believe it.
        
        The reason we have wars is because two sides oppose each other. While we may believe one side is right and choose to support it, those on the other side believe they are right. If everybody thought alike there would be no wars.
        
        You asked for one example of a war that was fought to defend an ideology, and what was the ideology being defended? Well, an obvious one would be the crusades: the Christians fought to defend the Holy Land [ideology] from Muslim rule.
        
        I agree with you that lies about self-defense do not count as self-defense. But one man’s lie is another man’s truth. As I mentioned earlier, we don’t all think alike. Each of us will believe what we want to believe.
      - Shirin says:
        
        September 9, 2009 at 4:16 PM
        
        Based on the argument as you present it, military service is always honourable because someone involved will always believe the country is defending itself. Are you sure that is your position?
      - Moje says:
        
        September 10, 2009 at 1:08 AM
        
        Oh Lord! You’ve completely misunderstood.
        
        I said:
        
        “…whilst military service is honorable when your nation is at war, when your nation is a brutal occupier and your service consists of maintaining that brutality – on a daily basis – then you are at war with your conscience. In that sense, the one who refuses is far more honorable than the one who does not.”
        
        “…putting your life on the line for others is honorable. But in the case of Israel/Palestine, standing up against the occupation and refusing is more so…”
        
        “…someone involved will always believe the country is defending itself…” My argument above is clear that, in my opinion, if Israel claims self-defense when you and I know it’s not, does not mean that Israelis don’t believe it is. You’ve combined that argument with the argument of honor to assume that my position is that “military service is always honourable because someone involved will always believe the country is defending itself.” As far as I’m aware, we were arguing two different things.
      - Shirin says:
        
        September 9, 2009 at 4:48 PM
        
        Regarding the Crusades, I think if you look beneath the surface a bit you will find that the reasons behind it were much more substantial than defending an ideology. It is also interesting that you say the Crusaders were defending the Holy Land given that they were the invaders. From where I sit the inhabitants of the Holy Land were defending their land from European invaders.
Mary Hughes-Thompson says:

September 10, 2009 at 7:32 AM

Maya Wind was on KPFK “Middle East in Focus” Pacifica radio program in Southern California last evening. A remarkably articulate and socially-conscious 19 year old. Here’s an audio link:
http://archive.kpfk.org/parchive/mp3/kpfk_090909_200030meif.MP3

Here’s a link to some information about her, and details of her US speaking schedule:

http://palestinian.ning.com/forum/topics/shministim-are-coming-to-the?page=1&commentId=1970466%3AComment%3A87327&x=1#1970466Comment87327

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- Moje says:
  
  September 10, 2009 at 10:08 AM
  
  Thanks for the links.
  
  Reply
Shlomo says:

September 15, 2009 at 12:46 PM

I disagree wiith what you are doing since you are probably speaking to a mixed (not totally Jewish group). Maya Wind and Netta Mishly have you thougt about the possibility that people listening to your comments will see this a justification for further domonization of Israel and the Jews?

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- Mary Hughes-Thompson says:
  
  September 15, 2009 at 9:37 PM
  
  Shlomo, of course these courageous women want their message to go out not only to Jewish people but to everyone who is interested in justice for the Palestinians. Apparently you see any criticism of Israel’s policies as “domonization (sic) of Israel and the Jews.” Wind and Mishly are being applauded by Jews and non-Jews for taking a stand against occupation.
  
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Cornelia Busse says:

September 20, 2009 at 7:17 AM

Maya I was in the West Bank in July and you spoke to our group very briefly, Global Exchange. I was notified by a friend that you were going to be at Hastings Law School to speak and that there would be a protest on the bridge but could not find out about any of these events. I would love to support you and attend on of these events but you may be out of the area. Can you let me know if there are any additional events in the Bay Area

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Todd Boyle says:

June 19, 2010 at 10:17 AM

I filmed them in Seattle and provided the video to public access TV producers. It is still archived on the web at http://www.edmaysproductions.net/piratetvsubdirectories/archive2.html

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