Comments on: Israel, National Security State http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/05/23/israel-national-security-state/ Essays on politics, culture and ideas about Israeli-Arab peace and world music Sun, 12 Feb 2012 20:15:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Richard Silverstein http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/05/23/israel-national-security-state/comment-page-1/#comment-110098 Richard Silverstein Mon, 25 May 2009 19:31:01 +0000 http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=6951#comment-110098 <blockquote>a simplistic comparison with the States</blockquote> When it's inconvenient to yr argument, my analogy is simplistic. If comparing Israel to the States is simplistic, then I suggest you compare Israel to any other democracy you wish. Or would a comparison to ANY democracy be simplistic?? <blockquote>I’ve never denied that Israel has a disproportionate amount of people working in the security services</blockquote> Actually, you never said a word on this subject here at this blog. I don't know what you may've said at yr own blog or elsewhere. You misunderstood the way in which I was using the word "family." So I clarified it by changing my phrasing to every "extended family" has a member in the security services. And this was not MY claim, but my Israeli informant's. Try to be a little more precise in the way you characterize these things. As for the Mossad, once again I'm less interested in how many people specifically work for a single Israeli intelligence agency than in how many work for ALL intelligence agencies.

a simplistic comparison with the States

When it’s inconvenient to yr argument, my analogy is simplistic. If comparing Israel to the States is simplistic, then I suggest you compare Israel to any other democracy you wish. Or would a comparison to ANY democracy be simplistic??

I’ve never denied that Israel has a disproportionate amount of people working in the security services

Actually, you never said a word on this subject here at this blog. I don’t know what you may’ve said at yr own blog or elsewhere.

You misunderstood the way in which I was using the word “family.” So I clarified it by changing my phrasing to every “extended family” has a member in the security services. And this was not MY claim, but my Israeli informant’s. Try to be a little more precise in the way you characterize these things.

As for the Mossad, once again I’m less interested in how many people specifically work for a single Israeli intelligence agency than in how many work for ALL intelligence agencies.

]]> By: dana http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/05/23/israel-national-security-state/comment-page-1/#comment-110092 dana Mon, 25 May 2009 15:10:38 +0000 http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=6951#comment-110092 I'll ask around - see who might care to put neck on line. Too bad a fellow I once knew well, Yossi Ginossar, is no longer among us. He loved to have a good chat - back in the days (as long as putting a word in edgeways was not a priority, it was fun too). I think BTW that your lunch friend meant the "intelligence" aspect in the widest possible sense. For example, many Israelis and Israeli ex-pats are recruited for a little "industrial" espionage in the US - for the benefit of israel, of course. Something they might do quite off-handedly, without thinking about at all. It would not even occur to them there was something wrong in that. Others may be more active, eg, infiltrating certain "peace" and/or progressive and campus movements. A lot of the intelligence gathering is done on-line by professionals, bolstered by amateurs and IT hobbyists of all sorts (call it - let's hack into something for fun). You can safely assume that your blog is vigilantly monitored daily for any nuggets (oops, and there I was, spilling a couple of "nuggets"....). In israel itself, it's safe to assume that all communication is monitored and that there are many automatic flags. That alone would take quite a contingent of overseers. All i can say is that should that lovely little country by the blue, blue sea revert at some point to a true police state, the means would be in place. Which is why the operation against new profile should be so worrisome to people there - and here. I’ll ask around – see who might care to put neck on line. Too bad a fellow I once knew well, Yossi Ginossar, is no longer among us. He loved to have a good chat – back in the days (as long as putting a word in edgeways was not a priority, it was fun too).

I think BTW that your lunch friend meant the “intelligence” aspect in the widest possible sense. For example, many Israelis and Israeli ex-pats are recruited for a little “industrial” espionage in the US – for the benefit of israel, of course. Something they might do quite off-handedly, without thinking about at all. It would not even occur to them there was something wrong in that. Others may be more active, eg, infiltrating certain “peace” and/or progressive and campus movements. A lot of the intelligence gathering is done on-line by professionals, bolstered by amateurs and IT hobbyists of all sorts (call it – let’s hack into something for fun). You can safely assume that your blog is vigilantly monitored daily for any nuggets (oops, and there I was, spilling a couple of “nuggets”….).

In israel itself, it’s safe to assume that all communication is monitored and that there are many automatic flags. That alone would take quite a contingent of overseers. All i can say is that should that lovely little country by the blue, blue sea revert at some point to a true police state, the means would be in place. Which is why the operation against new profile should be so worrisome to people there – and here.

]]> By: dana http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/05/23/israel-national-security-state/comment-page-1/#comment-110091 dana Mon, 25 May 2009 14:50:46 +0000 http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=6951#comment-110091 Alex, I was not trying to be patronizing, merely factual (please reread my comment with a beer in hand). You are way too sensitive, which by itself is a hallmark of new immigrants in Israel (the ones from well-to-do western countries). OTOH, they tend to be proud of the choice they made (and continue to defend it to the friends they left behind in the country left behind most vigorously). OTOH, Israelis are really big sometimes with that patronizing pat on the shoulder, often followed by indifference as to the consequences - and depth of that choice. That when they are not accusing the new western immigrant of utter folly, seeing how they themselves would love to go the other way. Which is why the new immigrant (assuming they are not too religious) is subject to attitudes ranging from patronization, incomprehension, suspicion, envy and even a touch of hostility (worse come to worse they are assumed to be able to return to whence they came from, right or wrong, an option native israelis feel they don't have). OK, there's sometimes a little admiration in it too - but only by those who perceive personal courage for what it is. If your experience is typical, there wouldn't be too many of those. That being said, I'm not surprised this only reinforces your commitment, being idealist and all. Oh, and one more thing, the condescension part is worse for a young female - just ask around. As for your comment on glamor - the way people brag about their own possible role in intelligence is with a wink and a nod. but since many exaggerate their role while in the IDF service, so nothing unusual about that. You again display your [laudable] immigrant-from-UK quality of not tending to braggery/bravado, so you may not perceive it so acutely in others. I'm just one who happens not to think it's particularly charming - or laudable - trait, having tried it for size myself a few times (and discarded, mercifully for all). Alex, I was not trying to be patronizing, merely factual (please reread my comment with a beer in hand). You are way too sensitive, which by itself is a hallmark of new immigrants in Israel (the ones from well-to-do western countries). OTOH, they tend to be proud of the choice they made (and continue to defend it to the friends they left behind in the country left behind most vigorously). OTOH, Israelis are really big sometimes with that patronizing pat on the shoulder, often followed by indifference as to the consequences – and depth of that choice. That when they are not accusing the new western immigrant of utter folly, seeing how they themselves would love to go the other way. Which is why the new immigrant (assuming they are not too religious) is subject to attitudes ranging from patronization, incomprehension, suspicion, envy and even a touch of hostility (worse come to worse they are assumed to be able to return to whence they came from, right or wrong, an option native israelis feel they don’t have). OK, there’s sometimes a little admiration in it too – but only by those who perceive personal courage for what it is. If your experience is typical, there wouldn’t be too many of those. That being said, I’m not surprised this only reinforces your commitment, being idealist and all. Oh, and one more thing, the condescension part is worse for a young female – just ask around.

As for your comment on glamor – the way people brag about their own possible role in intelligence is with a wink and a nod. but since many exaggerate their role while in the IDF service, so nothing unusual about that. You again display your [laudable] immigrant-from-UK quality of not tending to braggery/bravado, so you may not perceive it so acutely in others. I’m just one who happens not to think it’s particularly charming – or laudable – trait, having tried it for size myself a few times (and discarded, mercifully for all).

]]> By: Alex Stein http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/05/23/israel-national-security-state/comment-page-1/#comment-110089 Alex Stein Mon, 25 May 2009 08:25:28 +0000 http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=6951#comment-110089 Well I'm not sure much can be gained by making a simplistic comparison with the States. I've never denied that Israel has a disproportionate amount of people working in the security services, I've just challenged you on the idea that every family has someone working for them. Given that Israel's standing army is the same size as the US (i.e. the number of people that both countries could call up), I'm not surprised that the security services are similarly bloated. As for the out of date claim, any evidence that in the last seven years Mossad has suddenly started employing significantly more people? Well I’m not sure much can be gained by making a simplistic comparison with the States. I’ve never denied that Israel has a disproportionate amount of people working in the security services, I’ve just challenged you on the idea that every family has someone working for them. Given that Israel’s standing army is the same size as the US (i.e. the number of people that both countries could call up), I’m not surprised that the security services are similarly bloated.
As for the out of date claim, any evidence that in the last seven years Mossad has suddenly started employing significantly more people?

]]> By: Richard Silverstein http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/05/23/israel-national-security-state/comment-page-1/#comment-110088 Richard Silverstein Mon, 25 May 2009 08:17:40 +0000 http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=6951#comment-110088 First, that article was published in 2002. I'd venture to say those numbers are totally out of date today. Second, you've only listed estimated employees of the Mossad which is one of many Israeli intelligence services. Even if we say the total number (Shin Bet, Mossad, Lekem, Aman, etc.) is 10,000 that would translate into roughly 500,000 if it were the U.S. Though the CIA does not publish the numbers officially, <a href="http://people.howstuffworks.com/cia.htm" rel="nofollow">others have estimated</a> about 20,000 CIA employees. Even if you throw in FBI employees and U.S. military who work in intelligence and counter-intelligence, Israel's numbers still dwarf ours on a comparative basis. What does that tell you? First, that article was published in 2002. I’d venture to say those numbers are totally out of date today. Second, you’ve only listed estimated employees of the Mossad which is one of many Israeli intelligence services. Even if we say the total number (Shin Bet, Mossad, Lekem, Aman, etc.) is 10,000 that would translate into roughly 500,000 if it were the U.S. Though the CIA does not publish the numbers officially, others have estimated about 20,000 CIA employees. Even if you throw in FBI employees and U.S. military who work in intelligence and counter-intelligence, Israel’s numbers still dwarf ours on a comparative basis. What does that tell you?

]]> By: Alex Stein http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/05/23/israel-national-security-state/comment-page-1/#comment-110085 Alex Stein Mon, 25 May 2009 06:06:07 +0000 http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=6951#comment-110085 Here's one estimate for Mossad to start with: "The staff of Mossad was estimated during the late 1980s to number between 1,500 to 2,000 personnel, with more recent estimates placing the staff at an estimated 1,200 personnel." http://www.mediamonitors.net/haroonmossa2.html Here’s one estimate for Mossad to start with: “The staff of Mossad was estimated during the late 1980s to number between 1,500 to 2,000 personnel, with more recent estimates placing the staff at an estimated 1,200 personnel.” http://www.mediamonitors.net/haroonmossa2.html

]]> By: Richard Silverstein http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/05/23/israel-national-security-state/comment-page-1/#comment-110083 Richard Silverstein Mon, 25 May 2009 06:00:56 +0000 http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=6951#comment-110083 I'd challenge you to find out a figure estimating how many individuals are employed by the Israeli security services. When you do, then we can talk. I’d challenge you to find out a figure estimating how many individuals are employed by the Israeli security services. When you do, then we can talk.

]]> By: Alex Stein http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/05/23/israel-national-security-state/comment-page-1/#comment-110082 Alex Stein Mon, 25 May 2009 05:43:07 +0000 http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=6951#comment-110082 Richard - I wasn't saying they were.... Richard – I wasn’t saying they were….

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