Sadly, the vast majority of the perpetrators of the crimes in Palestine/Israel were recent jewish refugee arrivals from Europe. Obviously suffering from what they had been through at the hand of the Nazis. They were trying to heal their own inadequacy in the face of Nazi power by imposing their dominance on a poor and peaceful farmer populace. Sad but true, the insecurity can still be seen today. How can anyone possibly view the recent incursion into Gaza as a victory for israel. It was a true disaster, body counts never determine who wins a conflict. 6 million jews died in WW2, but their side won the war. Ditto, Vietnam!! Bosnia!! and many others.

I truly think the only solution is for the world community to impose a solution on two nations that have become drunk with nationalist and religious fervor that bears no rationality and in the view of any secularist is madness. We must all say ENOUGH!! Stop this madness and impose a peace whatever it takes on both parties. The Israelis must accept that in an ocean of over 1 Billion Arabs and Moslems that are becoming richer and more educated by the day and control immense wealth, that their ambivalence to the views of their neighbours is risky. The route to peace can only be won by accepting Palestinian rights and reconciling with your neighbours, The Arabs!

Simply changing the Israeli mindset will reduce the appeal and power of the madmen of Hamas or Hizbullah. For the Palestinians, after 60 years of victimization by a powerful adversary, if the Israelis respect and grant your aspirations for nationhood then forgive them and go on with you future. If either of you do not pursue this course, god help you, as you are doomed to misery!!!!

But you’re evading the subject. When there is violence by Jews against Arabs why don’t you object to it as I object to violence by Arabs against Jews? Why not? I won’t even wait for yr repy since I’ve given you a chance already & you’ve refused to answer: it’s because of your racist moral myopia, that’s why.

How do you define a civilian? When a suicide bomber packs himself/herself with explosives and nails and blows up an entire bus, is that not a soldier?

Doesn’t take much for you to go off the reservation, does it? I was talking about violence against Israeli and Arab civilians in the form of the type of knife attack you mentioned. I have no idea what point you’re trying to make about suicide bombing & the bomber being a “solider” since it has nothing to do w. what you & I were discussing before. A little more clarity in yr argument would be a good thing so I could both understand & reply to it.

And as I said I’m against any form of attack on civilians whether it be Qassam rockets or suicide bombings. But you right wingers are so behind the times. You talk as if this in 1996 & a suicide bomber is setting off a bomb every week in Israel. Do you have any idea how many suicide bombings there have been in the last few years? I can remember the last one in Aqaba being over a yr ago & it killed one person. And that 15 yr old boy became a bomber from a desire to avenge the Israeli police who’d beaten him to within an inch of his life at the tender age of 12 or 13.

Doesn’t dredging up old propaganda pts that are pretty close to irrelevant to current conditions ever get old for you guys?

“Violence against any civilian is wrong and immoral.”
How do you define a civilian? When a suicide bomber packs himself/herself with explosives and nails and blows up an entire bus, is that not a soldier? Direct and honest? Please…Why don’t you send that kid’s parents a copy of this blog page?

Violence against any civilian is wrong and immoral. But to ignore violence against Arabs is morally obtuse.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1233304715382

You need to go back and re-read what I wrote in my initial comment since you seem to have either misread it or misunderstood it. I have not indulged in any “rationalisation” as you put it of the current Islamist Turkish regime; I have merely stated that it reflects a popular mood in Turkish society and does so better than the Kemalist secularists in the army and the bureaucracy – this is an empirically observable fact and one that is supported by the various attempts to undermine the Islamist parties and have them declared either unconstitutional or unfit for power by the Turkish state. The lack of respect for any democratic mandate by the Kemalist state is clearly shown by its willingness to subvert the democratic process by carrying out coups and refusing to firmly place the military and security state under elected civilian control. This also is an empirical observation. My comments were then restricted to the nature of inter-state relations between Israel and Turkey under such a govt. I make no value judgements as to the desirability or the need for such a Kemalist approach and I also do not make any judgement or opinion supporting the AKP or indicating that the introduction of Islamism is a politically beneficial development for Turkey. Why you assume or infer I do is beyond me.

I do support minority rights and secularism and I would not support any policy or party that seeks to undermine them. However, I want to add that we do not get to choose what govts are elected in a democracy and frequently they will be unpalatable ones that indulge in behaviour we cannot condone. The redeeming feature is that these govts can be replaced and mobilised against in a democratic state. This is unlike the security states and dictatorships, which though they may embrace secularism have been involved in the violent repression of their own citizens. One of the reasons why secularism has become so discredited in the region is its association with such security regimes such as the Algerian state and Syria where thousands have been killed and legitimate elections subverted to prevent Islamists from coming to power. This is not only morally unacceptable but also in the long run an unviable strategy if one is serious about setting down deep roots for secularism.

Rather than glad-handing the “sister democracies” of Israel and Turkey; I would suggest that we spend less time and space vacuously praising them and more in insisting that they actually respect the democratic rights of all their citizens such as the Kurds and Israeli Arabs as well as desist from their blatantly undemocratic acts in their neighbouring countries such as the West Bank, Kurdish Iraq and Cyrpus. These two so-called democracies have a lot to live up to and their shameful collusion in acts such as the denial of the Armenian genocide indicate that they have yet to really achieve maturity as real democracies

I’m rather astonished that a Turk would describe his own president as “spitting” in Israel’s face. That’s rather crude and inaccurate. Erdogan had reason to be angry with Israel. If I were him I would’ve been angry at the way Israel treated him. Do you mean to tell me that you believe the leader of yr country should be made a laughingstock by the Israeli prime minister who pretended to negotiate over Syrian peace, all the while planning a military operation that would torpedo these peace efforts? Have you no pride in your own country & its leaders?