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48 Responses to “Lies Jeffrey Goldberg Told Me (About Gaza)”

1. Judy says:

   January 17, 2009 at 10:30 AM

   Tzvee said: Terror is not a response to oppression. The two have no connection whatsoever. Proof? When Jews were oppressed for millenia – they did not become wanton pointless terrorists.

   Firstly, the tactics of terror employed by Palestinians is hardly pointless. You may disagree with its use (as I do), but it is inaccurate to call it pointless.

   Secondly, does the author actually hold up the example of Europeans Jewish response to the Nazi thread as an example of how to deal with oppression. Sir, are you actually proud of this?

   Reply
2. Weekend Opinionator: The Battle Over the Battle in Gaza - The Opinionator Blog - NYTimes.com says:

   January 17, 2009 at 11:43 AM

   [...] Richard Silverstein of the dovish Tikun Olam blog doesn’t see either Goldberg’s or Gerecht’s plans bearing fruit: [...]

   Reply
3. NILI says:

   January 17, 2009 at 2:40 PM

   @Richard
   “The elephant fell on you & killed you.”
   You may have picked this up wrong. According to a Torah Lab translation of The Scroll Of Antiochus:

   “Elazar was trying to kill the elephants, but he drowned in elephant dung. When they returned from battle they sought him and could not find him, until eventually they found that he had drowned in elephant dung.”

   Apparently one soldier died from elephant dung. Any any case, the books regarding Hannukah were not Divinely inspired and so were not included in the Hebrew Bible. The source for holiday Hannukah, the Gemara (Shabbat 21) never mentions such an incident.-certainly no “suicide attack.”

   Reply
4. Peter says:

   January 17, 2009 at 7:38 PM

   Richard Silverstein writes:

   “700,000 Israeli Arabs left/were “cleansed” from Israel during the 1948 war.”

   My response:

   1. This “cleansing” would never have happened at all had it not been for the invasion of Israel (within the teeny borders set by the 1947 UN Partition Plan) of armed forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq, whose leaders were BOASTING joyfully of their plans to literally genocidally massacre all Palestinian Jews (the term “Palestinian” in those days referred to anyone living in Palestine – Arab, Christian, or Jewish). So if you want to talk about “ethnic cleansing” – this was the Arab leaders’ openly expressed intent. People who talk about Israel’s “ethnic cleansing” in 1948 seem to completely forget that the responsibility for this war falls on the Arabs, who were the aggressors. If they hadn’t invaded, there would have been no Palestinian Arab refugees.

   2. The Arab exodus from Palestine in 1948 was complicated. Many of the local Palestinian Arab businessmen, political leaders, intelligentsia, etc quietly slipped out of the country even before the outbreak of hostilities. There were cases of Jews trying to convince the local Arabs to remain, notably in Haifa. Those Arabs who were “encouraged” to leave were feared, sometimes with good reason, to pose an existential threat, since they were harboring and aiding Arab armed forces who had a stranglehold on the road to Jerusalem, where the Jewish community there was totally besieged.

   3. An equal or likely greater number (I’ve heard estimates in the 700,000 – 800,000 range) of Jews were expelled immediately after the war by Arab countries: notably Iraq, Yemen, and Morroco, but really all the Arab countries, Syria, Tunisia, Egypt, Algeria, … right down the line. These were Jews who had absolutely nothing to do with the 1948 fighting. They were minding their own business living their civilian lives, and suddenly their property and life savings were confiscated and they were forced to flee.

   Why is it that so few people who talk about the Palestinian refugees, don’t also talk about the Jewish refugees? They seem to have nothing to say about the ethnic cleansing of Jews. Why not? Shouldn’t some compensation for their losses be part of any comprehensive settlement of the conflict?

   Reply
   • Richard Silverstein says:

     January 17, 2009 at 9:55 PM

     This “cleansing” would never have happened at all had it not been for the invasion of Israel

     What rot. What you mean is that if the Arab states had accepted the UN partition plan that Israel would not have had an excuse to rid itself of significant portion of its Arab population as Ben Gurion would no doubt wish it could do (& did when he had the proper excuse). Besides, there was no strategic reason whatsoever to expel the Arabs. They posed no threat to Israel. They were not armed. They were quiescent. There isn’t a single recorded incident in which an Israeli Arab used violence against Israel in 1948. So blaming the Arab states for the expulsion is pathetic reasoning.

     Besides you have no idea how Israel would’ve treated its Arab population had the Arabs accepted it. They might still have found reason to emasculate, discriminate against or even expel it as they have done since 1948.

     The Arab exodus from Palestine in 1948 was complicated

     Ah yes, “complicated.” That’s the word you people use for any incident involving Israel which is a tad uncomfortable to explain to people who don’t have a natural set of pro-Israel sympathies.

     Those Arabs who were “encouraged” to leave were feared, sometimes with good reason, to pose an existential threat…

     “Feared” maybe. But feared justifiably, for any good reason? You say they posed an “existential threat” (interesting term–did they possess nuclear weapons like the Iranians hope to have?). Yet the only threat you can muster is that they sheltered Arab forces. Even if yr claim has any validity, how does sheltering someone pose an existential threat to Israel?

     quietly slipped out of the country

     “Slipped out of the country?” Really? Why don’t you provide a few examples.

     There were cases of Jews trying to convince the local Arabs to remain, notably in Haifa.

     You say there were “cases” and you name one. Yes, there may’ve been a few singular cases in which some local Zionist leader had a shred of conscience and understood how retaining Arab residents would work in Israel’s favor after the war ended. Those few certainly had some moral compass. But what about the rest?

     An equal or likely greater number (I’ve heard estimates in the 700,000 – 800,000 range) of Jews were expelled immediately after the war by Arab countries: notably Iraq, Yemen, and Morroco, but really all the Arab countries, Syria, Tunisia, Egypt, Algeria, … right down the line.

     This is either based on utter ignorance of the facts of willful lying. You’ve “heard” estimates. How did you hear them? From the tooth fairy whispering in your ear? Where do they come from? Do you have a CREDIBLE (not partisan pro Israel ideological) source? For example, Morrocco did NOT expel any Jews. On the contrary, the king begged Jews to stay. It was Zionist representatives who spread fear there through rumormongering about the dangers Jews there would face if they did NOT emigrate. Unfortunately, most Jews were convinced and left. But not for Israel. Most Jews went to France and other Francophone countries. And if your claims about Morrocco are so bogus we can’t believe your claims about any of the other countries.

     No one is claiming that life for Jews in Arab lands was a bowl of cherries. But it turned out to be a helluva lot better than it was for the Jews of Europe. There were never massacres of Jews in Arab lands. Inequality? Yes. But Jew-hatred on the scale of the Crusades, Inquisition or Holocaust? Never.

     There was no ethnic cleansing of Jews. Do provide us the least bit of credible evidence.

     Reply
5. LD says:

   January 18, 2009 at 3:52 AM

   The Arab ethnic cleansing by ISRAEL is not complicated.

   Read Benny Morris’s essay on this during the 80s. Read Christopher Hitchen’s essay on this during the 80s.

   BOTH cite the declassified IDF report that quantifies the reasons for the exodus.

   The old claim of Arab radios was debunked. The reasons, as stated in the IDF report was due to JEWISH TERRORISM and that fear instilled into the Arabs.

   They were driven from their homes.

   This is only complicated for Zionist apologists just as it is ‘complicated’ for Nazis to accept the Holocaust.

   People don’t like the truth when it reveals them or their cause to be a farce, a charade, etc.

   Reply
6. NILI says:

   January 18, 2009 at 4:35 AM

   @Peter and Richard

   “There isn’t a single recorded incident in which an Israeli Arab used violence against Israel in 1948.”
   Not true according to the Israeli high school matriculation program. Arabs were planting bombs even before ’48. I have eleven such classes digitally recorded and can send them.

   “But what about the rest?”
   It is a known fact that Moshe Dayan used the IDF to block Arabs from leaving Israel. Dayan had a good relationship with the Arabs and knew Arabic fluently. He related this in the A&E biography about his life.

   “Do you have a CREDIBLE (not partisan pro Israel ideological) source?”
   There is a documentary called the Forgotten Refugees in which it discusses just this issue-the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries. According to the film, the yellow patch that Nazis forced Jews to wear came from Muslim countries in the 8th century-Jews and Christians were made to wear them. Jews were considered “10th class citizens”-Dhimmi. It says “They would pull babies apart from their limbs until they broke. They would rape women and daughters in front of the families.” “My mother had to run through roof tops to escape the mob that was out to kill many of the Jews in her neighborhood.”

   “On the contrary, the king begged Jews to stay”
   The Insight Guide on Morocco (not about Jews mind you) relates that Jews were nailed to the doors of their houses during one period of Moroccan history.

   “And if your claims about Morocco are so bogus we can’t believe your claims about any of the other countries.”
   The documentary mentioned above systematically refutes this statement.

   “It was Zionist representatives who spread fear there through rumor mongering about the dangers Jews there would face if they did NOT emigrate.”
   Haj Amin al Husseini said “Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them.” Jews around the Middle East felt this and were alerted. The documentary relates “When I witnessed the persecution…within the city within the country of Iraq, I came to the decision-my parents also-that country wasn’t our country and we had to leave!”

   “There were never massacres of Jews in Arab lands. Inequality?”
   According to Forgotten Refugees, in 1912 there was a massacre of several hundred Jews in Fez-it was because of this incident that Jews were forced to live tightly together.

   “There was no ethnic cleansing of Jews. Do provide us the least bit of credible evidence.”
   The Jews of Egypt and other Arab countries left EVERYTHING-their businesses and land (and in Morocco). The Egyptian government stamped on the passports of Jews “one-way-don’t come back.” In Libya, the community was emptied completely-”cleansed.” The documentary says “all told nearly 1 million Jews fled Arab countries and Iran and hundreds of Jewish communities have been ethnically cleansed…”

   In addition, 500,000 people attended the public hangings of Jews in Baghdad by Saddam Hussein. After the six-day way there were concentration camps in Egypt called Abu Zaba-they were beaten and tortured. The UN has established resolutions concerning Arab refugees but not one mentions Jews of Arab countries. According to Prosessor Maurice Roumani, here are the figures of the Jewish population then and now (1944/2004)
   Morocco-265,000/5,000
   Tunisia-105,000/1,500
   Iran-100,000/20,000
   Syria-30,000/150
   Lebanon-38,000/20

   Reply
7. Rachel Luben says:

   January 18, 2009 at 5:39 PM

   I am not sure what Israel has done to help foster Palestinian support in Fatah, other than give them no other options. As for USA, George W. Bush (as well as Bill Clinton) has worked closely with Mahammad Dahlan (coercive leader within Fatah in charge of ‘preventive security’ and then head of national security advisor for Abbas) and Bush authorized money, training, and weapons for Fatah. Perhaps this is the real reason for the cease-fire, right after Bush’s official farewell speech in the capitol- the funding for this conflict against Hamas is in limbo.

   I don’t believe that the fundamental problem is which government the Palestinian people support, but more about which government supports them. We are so concerned about everyone acknowledging and accepting the Jewish national identity, that they are not discriminated against and that no violence be used against them. I support all of this, and because the Palestinians are just as human, I support the same for them. I don’t necessarily agree with a two state solution though. The Palestinians have been paying for the sins of their fathers, by being treated as subhuman with no citizenship without discretion. The people that came with the territory that Israel took over, were not included as part of the country- building rights, jobs, movement, things like sanitary, electrical, and other basic provisions are at the whim of Israel, the country that the Palestinians are technically part of geographically but not politically, economically, socially, or really in anyway. The Palestinians can not even cross into ‘Israel’ of which they are apart of, without the risk that some checkpoint soldier will decide to keep their papers and deny them their face and name. What are the Palestinians supposed to do? No, they are not supposed to elect terroristic organizations, but people are supposed to treat people as human beings as well.

   Both sides have a lot in common, unfortunately one of the things is that they both believe they are superior. The problem here is racism. There can not be any second class citizens to get past this. There needs to be greater exposure and associations among peoples, truth, and education. There is not going to be a easy solution or benefits to any government (Middle East, USA, or else where) anytime soon with this path, but we’ve been going down the Machiavellian/ ends justify the means path for 6,000 years with not a whole lot of progress or protection of life. Its time to go with principles and not short-term gains.

   Reply