.jpg){kind=small}
mini.jpg)
You are currently browsing comments. If you would like to return to the full story, you can read the full entry here: “McCain Channels Aipac in Debate”.
Tags: Barack Obama, holocaust, iran-attack
Tikun Olam-תיקון עולם: Make the World a Better Place
Promoting Israeli democracy, exposing secrets of the national security state
Recent Posts
- Israel Reserves Right to Attack Iran Regardless of Nuke Talks’ Progress
- Occupation Inc.: Exporting Israeli Occupation to Cyprus
- Where’s the Palestinian Gandhi? Soaking in Blood Shed by Settlers
- Seattle Christian Peace Activist, Brenda Bentz, Dies
- Report on “Rescuing Human Rights” Conference at UC San Diego
- BBC Poll: International Attitudes Toward Israel on Downward Trajectory
- Senior Israeli Official: Leadership’s Made Decision for War Against Iran
- RAND Calls for U.S., Israel to Prepare for Nuclear Iran
Categories
- Arts & Crafts/ Architectural Preservation
- Blogs-Tech-Science
- Children & Family
- Film-TV-Media
- Folk & World Music
- Food and Drink
- Gardening
- Hudson River Valley
- Humor
- Jews & Judaism
- Mideast Peace
- Outdoors
- Politics & Society
- Seattle
- The Arts
- Travel
Mideast Peace
- Abraham’s Vision
- Alison Ramer
- Alternative Information Ctr
- Anarchists Against the Wall
- Arena of Speculation
- Aron’s Israel Peace Blog
- City of Brass
- Daoud Kuttab
- Emily Hauser
- Encounter Programs
- Gaza Gateway
- Gaza Human Rights Blog
- Gaza Mom
- Gaza Today
- Grassroots Jerusalem
- Hagada Hasmalit
- HaOkets העוקץ
- Helena Cobban: Just World News
- Hybrid States
- Ibn Ezra
- Islamicate
- Israel-Palestine Ctr for Research & Information
- Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions
- Jews for Justice for Palestinians
- JNews
- Just Vision
- Lawrence of Cyberia
- Lingua Imperii Israel
- Loonwatch
- Magnes Zionist
- Michah's Paradigm Shift
- Middle East Alliance
- Mideast Brief
- Mideastwire
- MJ Rosenberg
- Mondoweiss
- Musings of a Muslim
- Muzzlewatch
- Mya Guarnieri
- Negev Co-Existence Forum
- Nur-al Cubicle
- Occupation Magazine
- Palestine Think Tank
- Palestine-Israel Journal
- Peace Now
- Peace Oil
- Political Islam Online
- Progressive Jewish Alliance
- Rabbi Brian's Blog
- Refuser Solidarity Network
- Religion & State in Israel
- Revealing Gaza
- Roi Word
- Sam Bahour
- Shalom Rav
- Sheikh Jarrah
- Shraga Elam
- Stephen Walt
- Strategic Assessments Initiative
- Syd’s Blog
- The Media Line
- The Only Democracy
- The Third Way
- The Villages Group
- Things and Stuff
- TikkunTree Project
- Wallwritings
- Window into Palestine
- Women’s Lens
- Zochrot
My Sites
Progressive Blogs (and One Conservative)
- Challenging Christian Zionism
- Global Voices
- Jesus’ General
- Jews on First
- Jon Swift
- Transatlantikblog
Tech/Blogs
Follow Tikun Olam
Books I Love
CDs/DVDs: Give a Look & Listen
Richard – I’d be interested in hearing your answers to these questions (perhaps you missed them in the chaos), posted by another commenter:
1) Why does Iran hate Israel?
2) Why does Iran fund Hezbollah (to the detriment of its own econony?
3) Why did Iran blow up Jewish centers in Buenos Aires?
4) Why does Iran try Jews on charges of espionage (much like Saddam Hussein did to Iraqs Jews in 1969?
You will likely argue that Israel hates Iran as well. As you know, Iran and Israel had diplomatic relations before 1979, when Khomeini seized the Israeli embassy and gave it to the PLO. Unlike Iran, Israel has not funded Iran’s enemies (Iraq, Taliban). The fact that a country does not have diplomatic relations with Israel doesnt automatically mean that country will fund armed action against Israel, ie Malaysia doesnt have diplomatic relations with Israel, but does not participate in armed struggle against Israel”
Alex Stein, while Israel may not be exactly funding Iran’s enemies, there is evidence that Israeli operatives give military training support to terrorist groups in Iran and Kurdistan to act against the Iranians (not just the nuclear targets but general acts of sabotage inside Iran). Read Seymor Hersh’s articles in The New Yorker (not available online) or even debka.
Dear Richard
I think you are avoiding answering questions that you are uncomfortable with. You would gain credibility if you tried to do so
In terms of Israels relationship with Kurdistan, it preceeds the Islamic Revolution and Kurds, Iranians, and Israelis cooperated together in the 1950s to smuggle Jews out of Iraq (see Operation Babylon, by Shlomo Hillel)
Please explain how the West Bank is Palestinian land. Here is the chronology:
1) the whole region was Turkish
2) Turks sided with German in WW1 and lost, area passed to British and French control
3) British and French set up mandates
4) British give Palestine for Jewish settlement in 1922 (W. Palestine made into “Transjordan” ruled by foreign Hashemites from Arabia). Event is known as “Naqba” in Arab world, since the Arabs didn’t believe that there was such a thing as Palestine, and condemned the idea of Palestine as a Zionist invention, since the Arabs saw Palestine as a part of Syria.
5) Jews declare independence in 1948, and surrounding Arab countries invade to try and conquer and annex Israel for themselves.
6) Jordan captures and annexes WB, Egypt takes Gaza
7) Israel captures these territories, to which they legally belong (1922)
Can you please explain how the West Bank “belongs” to the “Palestinians”? I understand that individual Arabs can own individual tracts of land, but how does that translate into the WB as a whole being “Palestinian”? In order for that to be the case, you need to delve into the history of political entities that controlled the land, and those entities are the ones described above.
“Being the brilliant Middle East historian that you are, you neglected the fact that Hezbollah didn’t exist before Israel’s first Lebanon invasion. Therefore, it couldn’t very well have done what you suggested.”
What I meant, obviously, is that the argument that Hizbullah was founded to fight the Israeli occupation makes no sense. That is what Iran and Hizbullah say, but you are just repeating their propaganda, because the simple fact is that the PLO occupied S.Lebanon beforehand and brutalized the population. So the fact is that if “occupation” was the problem, there already was an occupation going on, by Yasser Arafat, and Iran should’ve founded Hizbullah to resist the illegal PLO occupation of s. Lebanon. So too with Syria: it was occupying the entire country, so why not found a Hizbullah type group to resist their occupation as well, which was not dictated by anything defensive but is pure imperialism? You say they are allied with Iran: exactly! So how can you fall for Iranian propaganda that Hizbullah was founded to resist occupation???
“This notion is accepted not only by the international community. It is also accepted by Jordan which used to administer the W. Bank and even by Israel foreign ministry legal advisors who in 1967 recommended against creating permanent settlements since it would violate international law.”
Those legal advisors, Jordan, and the “international community” are wrong.
@Alex Stein: Well then, hallelujah. We do agree on something.
@fiddler:
Yes, I agree. I was referring to the basics necessary to end the conflict. There are of course issues that will need to be addressed after a settlement has been agreed to & implemented. Both Israeli & Palestinian societies will need to decide what direction they want to go. And both will need to do much soul searching. I’m hoping that such soul searching will lead both to reject the worst aspects of their respective social & political beliefs & to embrace the best. There does need to be some form of determining justice like the COmmission you suggested regarding the thornier issues confronting each nation.
@Acai Berri:
I have no interest in “gaining credibility” with those who come here merely to state an intransigent political position as you do. I don’t need to gain credibility with you or anyone else.
@Yoni:
What a load of hooey. First, it’s an entirely dubious claim. But even if it was credible, since when do the British of 1922 get to determine whether or not Israel must recognize a Palestinian state in 2008?? That’s a little problem you have w. yr argument.
The Territories are Palestinian. Period. You can dredge up all the dubious historical claims you wish but it doesn’t obscure the fact that everyone in the world except right wing Israeli nationalists like you accept this as fact.
@Yoni:
I think it’s rather funny for a right wing Israeli to tell Iran what it’s policies should be. Tell it to the Ayatollah, my friend. Maybe he’ll take yr advice more seriously than I.
As for a group that would resist the Syrian occupation of Lebanon, what do you think the March 14th coalition is? Do you have the faintest idea about what’s going on in Lebanese politics. I mean, I don’t claim to be an expert, but you simply don’t have a clue.
@Yoni:
There he stands, the lone moral man, the one who knows The Truth. The one who knows better than anyone who may have special expertise in international law what the law SHOULD say. I admire you yr certitude. But you’ll have to pardon the rest of us who find anyone so certain of their correctness with so little reason for being so, to be smug & insufferable.
@Mazal: You are a member in good-standing at Pro Semite Undercover, which automatically places you on probation here esp. considering you have called me “a goon” there. You are on notice.
Pakistan was motivated by India’s nuclear weapons and its arms race with that regional power.
Israeli nuclear weapons were originally (in my view) be the ultimate guarantor of the Israeli state, the guarantee that it won’t be pushed into the sea by Egyptian and Syrian tanks.
But currently, it has evolved into something more sinister – it gives Israel impunity (alongside American political cover at the UN and world politics) to do as they see fit – pursue ethnic cleansing (mild form) in Palestine, bomb Lebanese infrastructure into oblivion, try for an attack on Iran.
Of course, with American (read – neocon) military power in Afghanistan and Iraq, an Arab nation would have to be crazy NOT to try for some kind of a WMD program.
I guess you haven’t been paying attention, Mr. Silverstein. Your post above:
On September 28th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Richard Silverstein said:
Not at all. I’ve not come anywhere near yr views on Hamas. Don’t flatter yrself.
Ahmadinejad is not a spokesperson for Iran. He does not control Iranian foreign policy. The Ayatollah does. He at best controls domestic policies & even at that he is inept. Ahmedinejad mouths off for the benefit of gullible Jews like you who then can turn him and Iran as a whole into a big bogeyman.
The story you noted happened over a yr. ago. Old news.
EOM
While Ahmadinejad was speaking in the UN, not as a private person, but as a representative of the Iranian gov’t he said not only Israel but the US would soon be diminished or non-existent.
Here is a recent article for your continued amusement:
Khamenei: Iran will stand by Hamas, ‘holy warrior’ Haniyeh
Please note that Khamenei is the Supreme Leader of Iran.
Second note: Israel has prevented most arms smuggling into Gaza, money has come in imported by Haniyeh on his trips abroad. So, as you have stated, Iran does support Hamas with funds, and if you are a Hamas supporter, I’m not in the least interested in the argument.
@Mazal: I don’t care if Ahmadinejad claimed he represented Allah & all his prophets. He couldn’t personally order the destruction of Israel even if he wanted to.
The Ayatollah has said he stands behind Hamas. Big deal. What does this mean? That Hamas will or even can destrroy Israel?? C’mon.
Hamas has imported money into Gaza. It’s true. But fr. whom? Do you know? Do you have any proof? I thought not. And even if the funds come from Hamas, I repeat what does it signify? That Hamas is about to overrun Tel Aviv?? C’mon.
Here are authorities who dispute the idea that the West Bank and Gaza constitute occupied or illegally occupied territory:
Professor and Judge Stephen Schwebel, past president of the International Court of Justice (ICJ)
Sir Gerald Fitzmaurice, former ICJ judge
Judge Sir Hersch Lauterpacht, a former member judge of the international court
Judge Sir Elihu Lauterpacht, judge ad hoc of the ICJ
Former British Ambassador to the UN, Lord Caradon, principal author of UN Resolution 242
Professor Julius Stone, one of the twentieth century’s leading authorities on the law of nations
Professor Eugene Rostow, dean of Yale Law School, US Under-Secretary of State for Political Affairs, and key draftee of UN Resolution 242
Professor and Jurist Arthur J. Goldberg, member of the US Supreme Court, and US Ambassador to the UN in 1967 an a key draftee of UN Resolution 242
Professor George P. Fletcher, professor of international law at Columbia who wrote that Kofi Annan’s phrase “”illegal occupation” is a perilous threat to the diplomatic search for peace” (“Annan’s careless use of language” NYTimes March 21, 2002)
@Yoni: Others before you have quoted the same figures here & claimed they supported the same perspective you espouse. The problem is that if you probe what the figures actually said, which you haven’t even done here, they claim doesn’t stand the test. Undoubtedly, you all picked up these names fr. some right wing pro Israel discussion forum or site like CAMERA, FLAME, MEMRI, etc.
You neither quote yr alleged authorities nor provide any link that would allow anyone to verify that they say what you claim. BTW, I know for a fact that several of those you mention (Caradon for example) do NOT in fact “dispute the idea that the Territories are occupied.” Right wingers like you CLAIM they do. But that is a diff. matter entirely.
Your staement, Mr. Silverstein:
The Ayatollah has said he stands behind Hamas. Big deal. What does this mean? That Hamas will or even can destroy Israel?? C’mon.
One point at a time. You said that Ahmadinejad was not the leader of Iran and that whatever he said was not to be taken seriously as he was not the true ruler of Iran. Now we have the Ayatollah saying the same as Ahmadinejad, and he has made these statements from time to time over the past several years.
Your statement, Mr. Silverstein:
Ahmadinejad is not a spokesperson for Iran. He does not control Iranian foreign policy. The Ayatollah does. He at best controls domestic policies & even at that he is inept. Ahmedinejad mouths off for the benefit of gullible Jews like you who then can turn him and Iran as a whole into a big bogeyman.
So now you say that Ahmadinejad could represent Allah, for all you care.
@Mazal: I don’t care if Ahmadinejad claimed he represented Allah & all his prophets. He couldn’t personally order the destruction of Israel even if he wanted to.
Of course, I know that Iran won’t destroy Israel, because Israel is strong. I am not worried, although I live in Jerusalem, because Israel has people who are capable of stopping Iran.
The crossings into Israel are controlled, and will remain so. Hamas won’t be able to send the suicide bombers in (are you scoffing also that there are any such thing as a suicide bomber ready to detonate in Tel Aviv?) You say that you have a different view of Hamas than I do. I guess you are in favor of open borders and allowing free access to Israeli cities by Hamas? You view Hamas as a harmless organization that wants only peace? If Hamas is the future of the Palestinians the borders must remain tightly controlled.
@Mazal: I didn’t say he wasn’t the leader of Iran. He is its president. I DID say that he does not control Iranian military or foreign policy. The Ayatollah does.
Neither one has ever said explicitly that they favored Iran attacking Israel. Israeli leaders HAVE openly advocated Israel attacking Iran.
Neither Iran nor Hamas pose an existential threat to Israel. Neither are capable of creating a second Holocaust as McCain & Netanyahu fondly call it.
Therefore all your rhetoric about the Iranian “threat” to Israel’s existence is bogus.
Again, Iran has attacked Israel through it’s support of Hizbollah and Hamas. Hizbollah used weapons made in Iran and Syria. That is as simple as it gets. That was the Second Lebanon War. Are you waiting for an atomic bomb to drop?
Most of us won’t wait that long. This is your board and you are king. Therefore, there is no point in any further pointing out the truth to a blind man.
I notice that your CIF piece doesn’t contain the claim that Israel’s nukes motivated Pakistan to get them. Am I to take this as belated validation of my point?
Oy – I’m lost. My poor old aunti Ruthie Roth/Florida was a die hard Rebulican – maybe that’s why she died :P
….on the other hand we had a Persian root here and there.
I’ve got to say most of these Pars roots are scared sh**less of ahmadinejad and have split to canada and other portions of the globe.
Its my understanding that Pak nuked due to India…where i also have a friend or two…I give up. Its all too big for me.
@Mazal: We have a disagreement about which one of us is blind.
@Alex Stein: There was enough question about the claim that I thought adding Saddam’s Iraq as yet another example was sufficient.
have no interest in “gaining credibility” with those who come here merely to state an intransigent political position as you do. …How do you know I am intransigent?
If you want your visions of peace to occur, you will have to become more credible to those who fear the ultimate intentions of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran are to destroy Israel. While you may feel these are tiny problems to Israel, many people do not. You have two options-convince those who fear Iran, Hezbollah, or Hamas, or impose your ideology on those who disagree with you. The second option doesnt sound too democratic
@Acai Berri: I’m not about to impose my views on anyone. But you’ll have to pardon me if I don’t react terribly sympathetically to Israelis who have trouble giving up all the perks they’ve grown accustomed to over 40 yrs of Occupation. I’ve also grown weary of trying to hand-hold “moderate” Israelis & get them to understand that peace is worth compromising for. YOu can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.
In the end, perhaps the rest of the world will simply have to tell Israel that it MUST compromise to resolve the conflict. Perhaps a settlment will more or less have to be imposed on Israel (& on the Palestinians too). That may the only way to get to endgame. Neither side seems capable of doing the right thing. This is the view that Prof. Sternhell has been espousing in interviews in the aftermath of the attempted assassination attack on him.
Neither one has ever said explicitly that they favored Iran attacking Israel. Israeli leaders HAVE openly advocated Israel attacking Iran.
Neither Iran nor Hamas pose an existential threat to Israel. Neither are capable of creating a second Holocaust as McCain & Netanyahu fondly call it.
Therefore all your rhetoric about the Iranian “threat” to Israel’s existence is bogus.
also:
Neither Iran nor Hamas pose an existential threat to Israel. Neither are capable of creating a second Holocaust as McCain & Netanyahu fondly call it.
Therefore all your rhetoric about the Iranian “threat” to Israel’s existence is bogus.
What exactly is my so-called “rhetoric” and why should Khamenei’s statements about Israel’s existence (his rhetoric, not mine) be disregarded?
Show me where Israeli leaders have advocated attacking Iran without further proof of atomic weapon development and without a response to the calculated rhetoric coming from Iran’s President and Iran’s Supreme Leader? Where has Israel given money and arms to the vowed enemies of Iran, who are engaged in attacking Iranian civilians?
I don’t believe Iran is capable of creating a holocaust in Israel, so don’t put words in my mouth.
I don’t favor attacking Iran, if you assumed so. I favor a diplomatic approach. The use of warfare to settle this dispute will only lead to greater bloodshed and sorrow. However, burying your head in sand, ignoring Iran’s Supreme Leader and President who speaks before the UN GA, in terms that can’t be denied, that he stands behind the enemies of Israel, and is in fact anticipating Israel’s destruction, whether or not he is personally capable of pushing the button, is beside the point. The point is he is a war monger. Israel wants peace but will not walk into the rhetorical trap to be lead into a situation where Israel will be attacked and be unprepared, or where Israel will be attacked and civilians killed in large number. I’m not talking about a holocaust, although some use that word whenever there is a possibility of atomic warfare.
I stated above:
Of course, I know that Iran won’t destroy Israel, because Israel is strong. I am not worried, although I live in Jerusalem, because Israel has people who are capable of stopping Iran.
So why are you claiming “Therefore all your rhetoric about the Iranian “threat” to Israel’s existence is bogus.”
About 1000 Israeli citizens were murdered during the “Second Intifada”. No one is saying it’s a holocaust, although Hamas leaders have claimed that they will unleash hundreds of suicide bombers, and that they are anxious for Israel to be destroyed. (Not my rhetoric, only looking at the facts.)
Destroying Tel Aviv, for example would not be on the level of the Holocaust, although why should we say that would be acceptable, or that threat is acceptable?
BTW,
If you are only thinking of calming fears for the sake of getting Obama elected, that your mother might look beyond race as in issue, the argument is superfluous. Does your mother read your column?
I plan to vote for Obama. I am reasonably sure that he would not let Israel come under attack without a strong response. He is, in my view, a more suitable candidate than McCain.
@Mazal: I didn’t understand your first paragraph.
I completely agree w. yr view about Obama. While a right wing Israeli government run by someone like Netanyahu will undoubtedly not like an Obama presidency, the latter will nonetheless be as supportive of Israel as all past U.S. presidents were. And should there be an emergency he would, as you say, protect Israel if that were necessary.