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	<title>Comments on: Russia: Poland &#8216;Cannot Go Unpunished;&#8217; What&#8217;s Next, Russian Troops in Warsaw?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2008/08/15/russia-poland-cannot-go-unpunished-whats-next-russian-troops-in-warsaw/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2008/08/15/russia-poland-cannot-go-unpunished-whats-next-russian-troops-in-warsaw/</link>
	<description>Essays on politics, culture and ideas about Israeli-Arab peace and world music</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Richard Silverstein</title>
		<link>http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2008/08/15/russia-poland-cannot-go-unpunished-whats-next-russian-troops-in-warsaw/comment-page-1/#comment-102095</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Silverstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=3659#comment-102095</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;@americangoy:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;find the truth&lt;/blockquote&gt;
But you haven't.  You've only found a "truth" that's comfortable to you but doesn't at all reflect the full reality.
&lt;blockquote&gt;nternational law states that deliberate targetting of civilian targets is a war crime. That is what Georgia did. End of discussion on that one.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
And still not a word about the Russian Ossetian provocations including artillery barrages against civilian villages &#038; disappearances of Georgian civilians which provoked Georgia's action?  Come come.  A tad unbalanced aren't we?  And Georgia occupied Ossetian territory for at most a day or so.  Russia has occupied Georgia for a week now &#038; its Ossetian allies have committed unspeakable &#038; far worse crimes against civilians than Georgia did.  And yet this you support.  Yr perspective deserves no respect &#038; will get none.  It's moral blindness &#038; pro-Russian sycophantism.

And comparing Georgia and Russia's occupation of it with the Allies occupation of Germany after WWII is of a piece with the rest of yr shoddy political "analysis."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@americangoy:</p>
<blockquote><p>find the truth</p></blockquote>
<p>But you haven&#8217;t.  You&#8217;ve only found a &#8220;truth&#8221; that&#8217;s comfortable to you but doesn&#8217;t at all reflect the full reality.</p>
<blockquote><p>nternational law states that deliberate targetting of civilian targets is a war crime. That is what Georgia did. End of discussion on that one.</p></blockquote>
<p>And still not a word about the Russian Ossetian provocations including artillery barrages against civilian villages &#038; disappearances of Georgian civilians which provoked Georgia&#8217;s action?  Come come.  A tad unbalanced aren&#8217;t we?  And Georgia occupied Ossetian territory for at most a day or so.  Russia has occupied Georgia for a week now &#038; its Ossetian allies have committed unspeakable &#038; far worse crimes against civilians than Georgia did.  And yet this you support.  Yr perspective deserves no respect &#038; will get none.  It&#8217;s moral blindness &#038; pro-Russian sycophantism.</p>
<p>And comparing Georgia and Russia&#8217;s occupation of it with the Allies occupation of Germany after WWII is of a piece with the rest of yr shoddy political &#8220;analysis.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: americangoy</title>
		<link>http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2008/08/15/russia-poland-cannot-go-unpunished-whats-next-russian-troops-in-warsaw/comment-page-1/#comment-102092</link>
		<dc:creator>americangoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:59:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=3659#comment-102092</guid>
		<description>"I can’t believe someone of Polish descent would cozy up to the Russian bear as you have. "

Oh come now now - I look at an event, find the truth and go for it.  I am a speak my mind kind of guy - I tell you what I think.

"And to accuse Georgia of war crimes is simply swallowing Russian propaganda hook, line, &#38; sinker."

No, it is calling a spade a spade.

International law states that deliberate targetting of civilian targets is a war crime.  That is what Georgia did.  End of discussion on that one.

"And how, pray tell do you justify Russia’s continuing occupation of Georgian territory &#38; its troops being 20 miles from Tblisi?"
The same way that Americans, French, British, Polish, Canadian, Soviet troops found themselves on German (Nazi) soil.

Funny, no one then protested that the Western Allies nor the Soviets were somehow "expanding beyond the zone of conflict", as the media here would have us believe.

What - the allies were supposed to stop at the German border?  Let us not be ridiculous.

Georgia needed to be punished for naked aggression and deliberate targetting of civilians - and they were punished.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I can’t believe someone of Polish descent would cozy up to the Russian bear as you have. &#8221;</p>
<p>Oh come now now - I look at an event, find the truth and go for it.  I am a speak my mind kind of guy - I tell you what I think.</p>
<p>&#8220;And to accuse Georgia of war crimes is simply swallowing Russian propaganda hook, line, &amp; sinker.&#8221;</p>
<p>No, it is calling a spade a spade.</p>
<p>International law states that deliberate targetting of civilian targets is a war crime.  That is what Georgia did.  End of discussion on that one.</p>
<p>&#8220;And how, pray tell do you justify Russia’s continuing occupation of Georgian territory &amp; its troops being 20 miles from Tblisi?&#8221;<br />
The same way that Americans, French, British, Polish, Canadian, Soviet troops found themselves on German (Nazi) soil.</p>
<p>Funny, no one then protested that the Western Allies nor the Soviets were somehow &#8220;expanding beyond the zone of conflict&#8221;, as the media here would have us believe.</p>
<p>What - the allies were supposed to stop at the German border?  Let us not be ridiculous.</p>
<p>Georgia needed to be punished for naked aggression and deliberate targetting of civilians - and they were punished.</p>
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		<title>By: fiddler</title>
		<link>http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2008/08/15/russia-poland-cannot-go-unpunished-whats-next-russian-troops-in-warsaw/comment-page-1/#comment-102089</link>
		<dc:creator>fiddler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=3659#comment-102089</guid>
		<description>@Richard: I think you misunderstood me. I didn't deny that Jews could be atheists, in fact I agreed. Also, I was probably using a broader definition of "atheist" than you, not limited to the literal "without God", but rather as "without religion" or spirituality. (Using the narrow definition would make e.g. Buddhists, who know no personal God, atheists, which doesn't make sense to me.)
My point was that there are several levels of meaning of "Jewish" - religious, ethnic, tribal - and that's a recipe for confusion. In that sense I disagreed with your statement that the fact that Jews can be atheists was a beauty of your &lt;b&gt;religion&lt;/b&gt;. I'm certainly not telling anybody if they're Jewish or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Richard: I think you misunderstood me. I didn&#8217;t deny that Jews could be atheists, in fact I agreed. Also, I was probably using a broader definition of &#8220;atheist&#8221; than you, not limited to the literal &#8220;without God&#8221;, but rather as &#8220;without religion&#8221; or spirituality. (Using the narrow definition would make e.g. Buddhists, who know no personal God, atheists, which doesn&#8217;t make sense to me.)<br />
My point was that there are several levels of meaning of &#8220;Jewish&#8221; - religious, ethnic, tribal - and that&#8217;s a recipe for confusion. In that sense I disagreed with your statement that the fact that Jews can be atheists was a beauty of your <b>religion</b>. I&#8217;m certainly not telling anybody if they&#8217;re Jewish or not.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Silverstein</title>
		<link>http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2008/08/15/russia-poland-cannot-go-unpunished-whats-next-russian-troops-in-warsaw/comment-page-1/#comment-102088</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Silverstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:57:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=3659#comment-102088</guid>
		<description>@Andy: This is a terrific source &#038; I note the money quote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Thus, it is not inconsistent for an atheist to be Jewish. &lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Andy: This is a terrific source &#038; I note the money quote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Thus, it is not inconsistent for an atheist to be Jewish. </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Richard Silverstein</title>
		<link>http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2008/08/15/russia-poland-cannot-go-unpunished-whats-next-russian-troops-in-warsaw/comment-page-1/#comment-102083</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Silverstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 03:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=3659#comment-102083</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;@americangoy:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;Georgian troops delivered a surprise, punishing artillery and GRAD (modern Katyushas) bombardment aimed at Ossetian villages, towns and their capital city - these are civilian targets, and what Georgians did IS a war crime&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I can't believe someone of Polish descent would cozy up to the Russian bear as you have.  First the Georgian attack did not happen in a vacuum.  For weeks before Georgia attacked, Ossetian separatists along w. their Russian military allies were bombarding Georgian villages and Georgian civilians were being disappeared in Ossetia.

I do not justify or defend the Georgian invasion.  But it did not happen in a vacuum.  And to accuse Georgia of war crimes is simply swallowing Russian propaganda hook, line, &#038; sinker.  And if we want to talk about war crimes, can you promise you'll support hauling Ossetian militia leaders before international tribunals for the entire Georgian villages which have been burned to the ground in both Ossetia &#038; Georgia itself.

And how, pray tell do you justify Russia's continuing occupation of Georgian territory &#038; its troops being 20 miles from Tblisi?  Or don't you feel Russia should have to follow the norms of international relations?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@americangoy:</p>
<blockquote><p>Georgian troops delivered a surprise, punishing artillery and GRAD (modern Katyushas) bombardment aimed at Ossetian villages, towns and their capital city - these are civilian targets, and what Georgians did IS a war crime</p></blockquote>
<p>I can&#8217;t believe someone of Polish descent would cozy up to the Russian bear as you have.  First the Georgian attack did not happen in a vacuum.  For weeks before Georgia attacked, Ossetian separatists along w. their Russian military allies were bombarding Georgian villages and Georgian civilians were being disappeared in Ossetia.</p>
<p>I do not justify or defend the Georgian invasion.  But it did not happen in a vacuum.  And to accuse Georgia of war crimes is simply swallowing Russian propaganda hook, line, &#038; sinker.  And if we want to talk about war crimes, can you promise you&#8217;ll support hauling Ossetian militia leaders before international tribunals for the entire Georgian villages which have been burned to the ground in both Ossetia &#038; Georgia itself.</p>
<p>And how, pray tell do you justify Russia&#8217;s continuing occupation of Georgian territory &#038; its troops being 20 miles from Tblisi?  Or don&#8217;t you feel Russia should have to follow the norms of international relations?</p>
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		<title>By: americangoy</title>
		<link>http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2008/08/15/russia-poland-cannot-go-unpunished-whats-next-russian-troops-in-warsaw/comment-page-1/#comment-102082</link>
		<dc:creator>americangoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 02:51:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=3659#comment-102082</guid>
		<description>Sorry, was supposed to read "Russia is 110% right on this one, and USA, Israel" are in the wrong.

Do not forget - on the first day of the Olympic games, Georgian troops delivered a surprise, punishing artillery and GRAD (modern Katyushas) bombardment aimed at Ossetian villages, towns and their capital city - these are civilian targets, and what Georgians did IS a war crime, no ifs, buts about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, was supposed to read &#8220;Russia is 110% right on this one, and USA, Israel&#8221; are in the wrong.</p>
<p>Do not forget - on the first day of the Olympic games, Georgian troops delivered a surprise, punishing artillery and GRAD (modern Katyushas) bombardment aimed at Ossetian villages, towns and their capital city - these are civilian targets, and what Georgians did IS a war crime, no ifs, buts about it.</p>
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		<title>By: americangoy</title>
		<link>http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2008/08/15/russia-poland-cannot-go-unpunished-whats-next-russian-troops-in-warsaw/comment-page-1/#comment-102081</link>
		<dc:creator>americangoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 02:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=3659#comment-102081</guid>
		<description>Richard - you are waaaay off the mark on this one.

This is a global game, between the Western Alliance ("freedom" and "free market" - notice the ", they are there for a purpose) and the Russian Federation.

The game is for power, political clout, and of course natural resources which are rapidly running out - and, as always, big money.

Russia is 110% right on this one, and USA, Israel (read up on the Israel ties to Georgia, how Israelis trained them and sold them advanced weapons etc - also how the Georgian defense minister happens to be an Israeli - quelle bizzarre, eh?).

I was born in Poland and have an in born dislike of Russia as the traditional bully and enemy, but in this case they are 110% in the right.

I wrote extensively on this on my blog - in fact, this war has galvanized me to restart my blogging addiction (and splurge on fast internet in this hell hole).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard - you are waaaay off the mark on this one.</p>
<p>This is a global game, between the Western Alliance (&#8221;freedom&#8221; and &#8220;free market&#8221; - notice the &#8220;, they are there for a purpose) and the Russian Federation.</p>
<p>The game is for power, political clout, and of course natural resources which are rapidly running out - and, as always, big money.</p>
<p>Russia is 110% right on this one, and USA, Israel (read up on the Israel ties to Georgia, how Israelis trained them and sold them advanced weapons etc - also how the Georgian defense minister happens to be an Israeli - quelle bizzarre, eh?).</p>
<p>I was born in Poland and have an in born dislike of Russia as the traditional bully and enemy, but in this case they are 110% in the right.</p>
<p>I wrote extensively on this on my blog - in fact, this war has galvanized me to restart my blogging addiction (and splurge on fast internet in this hell hole).</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Silverstein</title>
		<link>http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2008/08/15/russia-poland-cannot-go-unpunished-whats-next-russian-troops-in-warsaw/comment-page-1/#comment-102078</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Silverstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 01:45:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=3659#comment-102078</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;@fiddler:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;The idea of an atheist member of any religion is indeed absurd, it’s a contradiction in terms&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I always find it amazing that people are willing to comment decisively on subjects about which they know so little.  In fact, you certainly can be Jewish and an atheist.  An atheist can, if he or she wishes, participate in Jewish rituals, pray with the community, etc.  And before you say ask why an atheist would do such a thing, you should realize that a good number might do so for various reasons.  Unfortunately, Judaism &#038; Jews don't adhere to yr pat theological definitions.

You are confusing Catholicism with Judaism.  The latter has no set of required beliefs in order for one to be a member in good standing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@fiddler:</p>
<blockquote><p>The idea of an atheist member of any religion is indeed absurd, it’s a contradiction in terms</p></blockquote>
<p>I always find it amazing that people are willing to comment decisively on subjects about which they know so little.  In fact, you certainly can be Jewish and an atheist.  An atheist can, if he or she wishes, participate in Jewish rituals, pray with the community, etc.  And before you say ask why an atheist would do such a thing, you should realize that a good number might do so for various reasons.  Unfortunately, Judaism &#038; Jews don&#8217;t adhere to yr pat theological definitions.</p>
<p>You are confusing Catholicism with Judaism.  The latter has no set of required beliefs in order for one to be a member in good standing.</p>
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		<title>By: amir</title>
		<link>http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2008/08/15/russia-poland-cannot-go-unpunished-whats-next-russian-troops-in-warsaw/comment-page-1/#comment-102077</link>
		<dc:creator>amir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:44:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=3659#comment-102077</guid>
		<description>I stand corrected. Our nation was kept alive by other means during the years we did not have a state (faith, torah, language (yiddish, ladino, hebrew) etc.).

Relations between states are still ruled by the "law of the jungle", though the rules and terrain may have changed to accomodate for technology. What's happening in Georgia should make that clear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I stand corrected. Our nation was kept alive by other means during the years we did not have a state (faith, torah, language (yiddish, ladino, hebrew) etc.).</p>
<p>Relations between states are still ruled by the &#8220;law of the jungle&#8221;, though the rules and terrain may have changed to accomodate for technology. What&#8217;s happening in Georgia should make that clear.</p>
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		<title>By: fiddler</title>
		<link>http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2008/08/15/russia-poland-cannot-go-unpunished-whats-next-russian-troops-in-warsaw/comment-page-1/#comment-102076</link>
		<dc:creator>fiddler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:35:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/?p=3659#comment-102076</guid>
		<description>amir:
&lt;blockquote&gt;our nationhood and state are not dependent on your good will (...) but rather by our ability to maintain statehood.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Your state is self-evidently dependent on your ability to maintain statehood, but your nation? That's the first time I see a Jew claim that between 136 and 1948 there existed no Jewish nation...

In the days when relations between tribes were ruled by the law of the jungle (or the desert in this case) no one was given territory, and they had to fight for it, I agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>amir:</p>
<blockquote><p>our nationhood and state are not dependent on your good will (&#8230;) but rather by our ability to maintain statehood.</p></blockquote>
<p>Your state is self-evidently dependent on your ability to maintain statehood, but your nation? That&#8217;s the first time I see a Jew claim that between 136 and 1948 there existed no Jewish nation&#8230;</p>
<p>In the days when relations between tribes were ruled by the law of the jungle (or the desert in this case) no one was given territory, and they had to fight for it, I agree.</p>
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