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Russia invaded Georgia. What did they expect? That former satellite states would roll over and play dead? Now, it appears that the Russians, displeased with Poland’s looking out for its long-term interests, are planning to “punish” the Poles. What can be next? Russian tanks in Warsaw??
The United States and Poland reached a long-stalled deal on Thursday to place an American missile defense base on Polish territory, in the strongest reaction so far to Russia’s military operation in Georgia.
Russia reacted angrily, saying that the move would worsen relations with the United States that have already been strained severely in the week since Russian troops entered separatist enclaves in Georgia, a close American ally. At a news conference on Friday, a senior Russian defense official, Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, suggested that Poland was making itself a target by agreeing to host the anti-missile system. Such an action “cannot go unpunished,” he said.
When I read the following I thought: “Gee, maybe Putin should’ve thought of that before deciding to occupy parts of Georgia:”
“It is this kind of agreement, not the split between Russia and United States over the problem of South Ossetia, that may have a greater impact on the growth in tensions in Russian-American relations,” Konstantin Kosachyov, chairman of the foreign affairs committee in the Russian Parliament, told the Interfax news agency on Thursday in Moscow.
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Tags: georgia invasion, poland cannot go unpunished, Russia Lashes Out on Missile Deal
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Richard, many Europeans do not want the US defense shields. And many consider the humiliation of Russia unnecessary. Occasionally we hear the argument that these defensive shields are needed to protect us against the Iranian atom missiles. Well, you bet.
Let’s make a deal – NATO and Russia
Georgia on my mind
The last thing I want to do is to justify Russian actions which have definitely gone too far. But Saakashvili went into South Ossetia first. The Russians are nationalistic and xenophobic, but so are the Georgians. When the Soviet Union collapsed, South Ossetia (which had been an autonomous region within the Georgian republic, and which even enjoyed brief independence in the 1920s) wanted to join Russia. North Ossetia is a part of Russia, and 98% of the population in the south voted in favor–especially as the Georgian regime after the collapse of the USSR operated under the strongly nationalistic slogan “Georgia for the Georgians,” seriously threatening ethnic minorities like the Ossetians.
Take a look at Pat Lang’s map. You can enlarge it if you click on it. That is what the Nato enlargement feels like for Russia.
@LeaNder: You may not have seen my comment in reply to that post in Bernard’s comment thread. I thorougly disagree with his sister in law who wrote that the U.S. was pouring oil on the flames through it’s anti Russian rhetoric:
I would never argue that U.S. interests are benign. But if you think that your own prime minister isn’t shivering in her boots about Russian intentions, then you’ve got another thing coming. Every country within 100 miles of a Russian border is wondering who’s going to be next.
If I had a choice as to which power were more benign in its intentions I’d choose the U.S. hands down. I wouldn’t do so blindly because U.S. intentions aren’t always noble. But compare them to the brutality of Russian actions & who would you prefer?
Every country within 100 miles of a Russian border is wondering who’s going to be next.
Come-on mr Silverstein not every country along Russia borders are “afraid” of Russia. I live in Finland, which has had much more serious conflicts with Russia as Georgia. In Finland and Europe most of the public and politicians understand rather good the Russian side in this conflict with Georgia.
Lets remember that Stalin added the disputed areas to Georgia and that most importantly the people of those regions do favour more independence or even joining Russia than belonging to Georgia. There is basically no difference between Kosovo and the areas in Georgia. By forcing the decision with Kosovo USA and its allies did choose the solution model.
Most Europeans do not like / understand why USA missile shield against “Iran” :) is necessary, especially when Iran is years from a nuclear ballistic missiles. What Europe would needs is a missile shied against Israeli nukes which are a reality, not against Iranian nukes which are not a reality.
SimoHurta – spend just a few minutes with Finnish people and you’ll be left in no doubt how they feel about Russia. Hatred is not too strong a word.
Having said which, I’m firmly on the side of the Russians on this one. Georgia was very aggressive, and seems to fancy carrying out the same colonisation of their neighbours as Israel. Perhaps most alarmingly, Georgia is friendly with the shitty little nation.
That little zinger at the end is going to cost you if you don’t control yr bile better next time. There are plenty of ways to express yr displeasure with Israel w/o resorting to that epithet.
@SimoHurtta:
Yr claim is simply not credible. The following nations are extremely nervous about Russian intentions in light of the Georgia invasion: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Georgia, Ukraine, Poland. Perhaps Finland is not as nervous. I concede there may be one country within 100 miles of the Russian border that is not nervous. But yr one country is far outweighed by the others I mentioned.
It is simply not true that “most” of the European public supports Russia’s invasion of Georgia.
Again untrue. Kosovo’s independence was brought on by the megalomaniac ethnic cleansing campaign of Serbia under Slobodan Milosevic. There simply has been no comparable set of crimes committed against the ethnic enclaves in question though I concede that Georgia’s invasion of S. Ossetia was an egregious violation of the status quo.
This is not only preposterous, but insultingly so. Do you really expect any reasonable person to believe Europe needs to worry about Israel attacking it w. nuclear weapons??? Puh-leeze.
Richard,
I am surprised that you cannot see that the Bush regime and the Israelis are the provacateurs in this mess.
“……..I believe all this could have been avoided had Bush, and
Israel, not been so anxious to shove their agenda up the Bear’s butt. They pushed Georgia into this to test whether Putin would react, looking toward the imminent Iran crisis. The one good thing that may come of this, is now they might think twice about an attack on Iran. However sorry one may feel for the Geourgian people, I think this is a welcome slap in the face of US/Israeli hubris.”
This was my own comment to one of the first articles to appear announcing the flare up.
The immediate announcement of the agreement to place the “defense” system in Poland is another provocation. I have no love for Mr. Putin, but he showing more intelligence and balls in this showdown with Bush’s arrogance.
@gene schulman:
I have seen no evidence that the U.S. played any role in encouraging Georgia to invade S. Ossetia. If you have any I’d like to see it. To say that Putin is showing “intelligence” with his tanks 15 miles from Tblisi and Ossetian militias burning Georgian villages and sending inhabitants into full flight seems to require a willful suspension of reality &/or disbelief.
It is one thing to detest and mistrust U.S. foreign policy. It is quite another to lay the ills of the world at the U.S.’ doorstep. I would never make the mistake of seeing the U.S. as a benign player in this drama. But Russia is a far more malevolent one.
I’m not excusing Georgia’s original violations of the status quo which started this whole mess. It was a major miscalculation on Shaakashvili’s part. But Putin reacted to it in almost the same way Olmert reacted to Hezbollah’s killing of IDF soldiers before the Lebanon war. That is, Putin has overreacted in classic Russian megalomaniac fashion. If he doesn’t pull back from his folly he too will be made to suffer for his own miscalculation.
Richard, first I can understand your reaction on SimoHurtta’s comment on Israeli nukes. But you surely realize it is ironic? The question that hovers over your answer is: We no doubt can assume that Israel will not use it’s nukes, but why are we to believe that Iran would use it?
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“It is one thing to detest and mistrust U.S. foreign policy. It is quite another to lay the ills of the world at the U.S.’ doorstep. I would never make the mistake of seeing the U.S. as a benign player in this drama. But Russia is a far more malevolent one.”
In the post 911 world Andrew S. Markovitz suggested that antisemitism and anti-Americanism are twin brothers. I can’t help but your statement above suggests it to me. (Quite a couple of national players were active in Georgia: US, Israel, Turkey … Do you think the people want this war. And do you consider phrases like: “Georgia for the Georgians attractive?
*******************************************
Gene, I read your comment somewhere, but I don’t remember were. I completely agreed.
sorry for the many fast speed mistakes: missing second parenthesis, quote, question mark, typos: obviously where not were in the end.
I am hoping your kind eyes & and brains will make the appropriate corrections. ;)
We Are All Georgians’? Not So Fast
Unlike most of the armchair generals now posing as experts on the Caucasus, I have actually visited Tskhinvali, a sleepy provincial town in the shadow of the mountains that rise along Russia’s southern border. I was there in March 1991, shortly after the city was occupied by Georgian militia units loyal to Zviad Gamsakhurdia, the first freely elected leader of Georgia in seven decades. One of Gamsakhurdia’s first acts as Georgian president was to cancel the political autonomy that the Stalinist constitution had granted the republic’s 90,000-strong Ossetian minority.
After negotiating safe passage with Soviet interior ministry troops who had stationed themselves between the Georgians and the Ossetians, I discovered that the town had been ransacked by Gamsakhurdia’s militia. The Georgians had trashed the Ossetian national theater, decapitated the statue of an Ossetian poet and pulled down monuments to Ossetians who had fought with Soviet troops in World War II. The Ossetians were responding in kind, firing on Georgian villages and forcing Georgian residents of Tskhinvali to flee their homes.
It soon became clear to me that the Ossetians viewed Georgians in much the same way that Georgians view Russians: as aggressive bullies bent on taking away their independence. “We are much more worried by Georgian imperialism than Russian imperialism,” an Ossetian leader, Gerasim Khugaev, told me. “It is closer to us, and we feel its pressure all the time.”
Richard,
Aside from open admissions in the US media about the US supplying arms and advice to Georgia, there are many other sources for knowing that the US and Israel have been arming and advising. Read the Debkafile of Aug. 8, for one: “Israel backs Georgia in Caspian Oil Pipeline Battle with Russia. Georgia invades Ossetia with aid of Israel advisors.”
Elsewhere, both Paul Crag Roberts and Greg Whitney have exposed even more in recent articles at http://www.counterpunch.org.
I am not naive about international geopolitics, nor do I believe Russia is not the playing them, big time. But I can also see that most of the world’s mess of the last several years (Iraq, Iran, Afgahnistan, etc.) can be laid at the doorstep of US/Israel desires to establish hegemony over the world’s energy resources.
LeanDer,
I don’t know where my comment was published beyond our local journal in Geneva, in response to a colleague’s article. He is a pretty big shot for Switzerland on the int’l. scene, and travels regularly to Georgia, Baku and other exotic places. He would probably agree with your assessment of things Georgic/Ossetian.
Anyhow, it’s nice to know my opinions are getting around. Thanks for pointing it out to me.
Richard, Ive mostly agreed with, and appreciate, your articles, but I think you’re off base this time. Russia may be over reacting, but they were set up by the neocons and great “chess players” like Brzezinski, et al.
“If I had a choice as to which power were more benign in its intentions I’d choose the U.S. hands down. I wouldn’t do so blindly because U.S. intentions aren’t always noble. But compare them to the brutality of Russian actions & who would you prefer?”
Are you talking about the Soviet Union under Stalin, or are you talking about Putin? If you’re talking about Putin, I don’t trust him one little bit and I agree that they’ve gone much too far, but he’ll need to do a lot more aggressive and stupid things before he comes close to being as dangerous as Bush. In fact, even if you look at post WWII history, it’s not obvious that the Soviet Union’s external behavior was more aggressive than ours. There is no comparison in the amount of freedom internally, of course, but democracies have shown themselves time and again to be quite ruthless in their foreign policies.
It’s fine to argue that Russia is the biggest villain in this current crisis, but if you think the fighting in Georgia has done anywhere near the harm of Bush’s invasion of Iraq, I suggest you compare bodycounts, not to mention more intangible factors like the increase in cynicism about America’s motives. (Which, frankly, I welcome–we deserve a lot more cynicism about our motives.) As for American intentions not always being noble—yeah, you think? The fact that we are a democracy only means you and I can criticize US foreign policy without fearing the secret police. It doesn’t mean that US foreign policy hasn’t frequently been ruthless and hypocritical.
Donald,
For more information regarding your post about who is more ruthless, you might want to look in at http://www.counterpunch.org, and read Mike Whitney’s latest column: “Revisiting the Battle of Tskhinvali.” (Sat., Aug. 16).
I’m not quite sure just how much longer we can criticize our government without fearing the secret police. It’s not for nothing Halliburton is building detention centers around the nation. It’s not for nothing Blackwater is reorganizing its “security” forces in the US.
Richard, I apologize for usurping your space to advertize Counterpunch, but they have had the most interesting, and the most in-depth analyses of this subject. Today’s collection is particularly rich, and I recommend some time browsing it this weekend.
Gene–I’m withholding judgment about bodycounts in Georgia for now. Human Rights Watch has so far been unable to confirm the 2000 dead the Russians blame on the Georgian. I’m making a broader point–Westerners in general are in a poor point to lecture the Russians. How many US politicians in either party condemned Israel for the roughly 1000 dead civilians killed by Israel in Lebanon in 2006?
As for the Kosovo example mentioned above, there was brutality on both sides–
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/05/19/serbia18875.htm
That’s aside from the civilians killed by the US in 1999.
Obama, of course, is one of the moral cowards who defended Israel’s conduct in 2006 without reservation. I’ll vote for the guy (lesser of two evils), but I don’t see how anyone can take the moral posturing of either him or McCain seriously.
Again untrue. Kosovo’s independence was brought on by the megalomaniac ethnic cleansing campaign of Serbia under Slobodan Milosevic. There simply has been no comparable set of crimes committed against the ethnic enclaves in question though I concede that Georgia’s invasion of S. Ossetia was an egregious violation of the status quo.
Maybe mr. Silverstein you should “educate” yourself more about the European politics and certainly much more about what in reality happened in Kosovo (or now in Georgia). Not everything is in reality so as US and Israeli media “commands” us to believe. Maybe you believe John Pilger and Carla Del Ponte more than me. Don’t forget Yugoslavia.
A year later, Del Ponte’s tribunal announced the final count of the dead in Kosovo: 2,788. This included combatants on both sides and Serbs and Roma murdered by the KLA. There was no genocide in Kosovo. The “holocaust” was a lie. The Nato attack had been fraudulent.
But still in the end if Albans in Kosovo have the right to choose independence (with US military bases :) ) the other smaller nations have the same right (with Russian or Chinese military bases :) ). Also the Palestinians certainly have the same (or even greater) needs and justified reasons for independence that the Kosovo Albans.
As “we” in democracies define “same rules apply to all”. Well I know that you in USA and Israel have a different view of what “all” and “rules” mean.
—
This is not only preposterous, but insultingly so. Do you really expect any reasonable person to believe Europe needs to worry about Israel attacking it w. nuclear weapons??? Puh-leeze.
Do not so “fast” make conclusions mr Silverstein. Of course Europe (including west and east) are nervous about Israel. They would be nuts if they would not be.The reality is that Israel is the most unpredictable and agressive country on the earth with such military force. Israel is also a country with very politically influential and large religious groups with make Talebans seem almost “secular liberals”. The possibility that these religious extremists could lead some day in near future Israel is extremely high and worrying for us “gentiles”.
Of course the Israeli nuclear and other WMD arsenal has two main functions. One to make the “Arabs afraid” but also to “force” directly and indirectly the allies to “obey” Israel. The Israeli weapon arsenal and aerial delivery capability has long ago exceeded the defensive needs. The WMDs are a political weapon and blackmail instrument.
For example do you mr Silverstein remember how Israeli warplanes made “practice” attacks against German spy ships in Lebanese waters (near Israeli coastal waters). Certainly the intelligence officers and equipment in the Unifil “European countries” and China are not “employed” to watch 100% Hizbollah. Certainly their main target is to monitor Israel. And lets not forget the Russian listening posts in Syria.
Puh-leeze indeed mr Silverstein.
To simohurtta:
“Israel is also a country with very politically influential and large religious groups with make Talebans seem almost “secular liberals”.” ——— 62% of Israeli Jews are secular. Only 15% are ultra orthodox. Don’t forget Israel sent a transsexual to the Eurovision contest and allows gays to marry. Israel is a lot more liberal and secular than you think. It’s ridiculous that you are even comparing Israel to the Taliban. You might think that it is so religious because it is they that cause most of the trouble but they are outnumbered in Israel and Israel would never let the ultra orthodox to rule like the Taliban.
“One to make the “Arabs afraid” but also to “force” directly and indirectly the allies to “obey” Israel. ” ———— How exactly is Israel threatened any of its allies to do what it wants?
“For example do you mr Silverstein remember how Israeli warplanes made “practice” attacks against German spy ships in Lebanese waters (near Israeli coastal waters).” —- I’d like a citation. Never heard this.
Michael Weis can your wife go in the front of all buses in Jerusalem? My wife can in Finland. Israel is hardly secular mr Weis no matter of how many Israeli Jews proclaim to be secular or even if gays can get married (which they by the way cant do in Israel *)). Jews are purely defined by their religion. The idea of an atheistic Jew is basically absurd. An atheist is an atheist. Also Israel’s sole existence and location is based on religion and “justified” by religious texts. A non-Jewish atheist can’t get Israeli citizenship even he would live there a long time. Not to mention the non-Jewish non-atheists. A convert to Judaism can get.
Here is for example what der Spiegel tells us about the incident with Israeli war planes and German ships. Most probably only a fragment of such incidents are / were reported. Using Google it is easy to find more stories about those Israeli actions. Naturally all major powers in Europe and also internationally monitor Israel. No doubt about that.
EU has borders very near Israel and Israeli action have instant reflections in our owns safety and living conditions. Wars and constant chaos in Middle East might be in Israeli/US interests, but they are not in European interests. In Europe’s interests are good functioning trade and other relations with Arab countries.
If Europe is forced to choose between Bush style USA and Israel versa Arab oil producers and Russia the result might be a surprise for most Americans. Europe has no desire to fight US colonial and geopolitical wars in the centre of Eurasia. We can see that how eager the Europeans are willing to support US actions in Afghanistan and Iraq.
*)Wikipedia tells us
Israeli law recognizes same-sex marriages performed elsewhere. It is the only country in the Middle East and all of Asia to do so. It does not, however, allow same-sex couples to marry. It should be noted that civil marriage doesn’t exist in Israel for heterosexual couples, either, and therefore no marriage not sanctioned by religious authorities can take place within Israel. (This restriction forces not only gay couples, but also all mixed-religion heterosexual couples and any person who wishes a non religious marriage, to marry outside the country.)
Hmmmm secular and liberal, well compared to Afghanistan yes in some ways.
“The idea of an atheistic Jew is basically absurd. An atheist is an atheist. Also Israel’s sole existence and location is based on religion and “justified” by religious texts. A non-Jewish atheist can’t get Israeli citizenship even he would live there a long time. Not to mention the non-Jewish non-atheists. A convert to Judaism can get.”
Most Jews now days see the Jews are a people, like Armenians see Armenians as a people even though there isn’t an Armenian religion. Monotheism is what made Jews different from the others and thus what made them a different tribe. (When one Jew asks another Jew if he is Jewish he says, “Are you a member of the tribe?”) There is also a genetic similarity between all Jews, whether they are from the Arab world or from Europe/US. Hitler didn’t wage war against Judaism, he waged war against those with Jewish genes whether they were religious or not, even if they converted to other religions. On soviet identity cards, for ethnicity it said Jewish, not Russian or Georgian.
The early Jewish settlers from the 1880’s till the establishment of the state of Israel were secular socialists (kibbutzniks). The Labor party which dominated Israeli politics for the first 2 decades was led by Kibbutzniks, Golda Meir and Ben-Gurion who were secular.
The sole basis for Israel’s existence is not religious. Israel was created by the Zionist movement which has been lead by secular Jews(there is such a thing, I don’t see how you don’t see it) is the quest for a homeland for the Jews where Jews can rule themselves. We have already seen the consequences when an Israel wasn’t there. There is nothing religious about it. The Jews are the descendants of the Israelites/Hebrews and yes, their national conscience comes from a religious text, the Hebrew Bible. No one denies that the Jews were expelled from the homeland 2,000 years ago by the Romans. Now let say the Japanese were expelled out of Japan 2,000 years ago and other people started to live there. And now they re-established their country in Japan. Is there anything religious about it?
Israel has over a million (about 20% of Israel’s population) non-Jewish citizens (Muslim, Christian, Ba’hai, etc.). Whether they believe in God or not isn’t part of any citizenship requirement. I’m Jewish and don’t believe in God. I was born in Israel and hence I have Israeli citizenship.
” A non-Jewish atheist can’t get Israeli citizenship even he would live there a long time.” —– There are many Russians that came to Israel in the early 90’s and most of them aren’t Jewish, yet they all got citizenship. The problem with Jewish converts is that most aren’t recognized by the Ortho/ultraOrtho, and unfortunately they control the rabbinate in Israel, hence aren’t recognized by the state of Israel as Jewish. That is religious, but for seculars Jews, it is very easy for them to get citizenship.
“Michael Weis can your wife go in the front of all buses in Jerusalem?” —– Well I’m too young to have a wife but when I lived in Israel when I was a little kid, my mom could ride in the front of the bus. I don’t know where you got the idea that she couldn’t.
“Wars and constant chaos in Middle East might be in Israeli/US interests” ————– They are not, the Israeli economy grows faster when there isn’t a war, and you know us, we are all about the money. /sarcasm
Israel doesn’t do much trade with its neighbors, but it does do a lot of trade with India, US, and Europe.
“We can see that how eager the Europeans are willing to support US actions in Afghanistan and Iraq.” Those wars have nothing to do with Israel.
@LeaNder:
Well, sure that’s ethnocentric & racist. But what I object to in the analyses of many of the commenters here is the one-sidedness of the approach. Certainly there is error on the Georgian side. Certainly rabid nationalism. But compare that too the ethnic chauvinism & rabid jingoistic nationalism on the Russian side. And not just toward Georgians. Just about every ethnic minority in Russian is severely discriminated against & many face terrible violence as well.
@LeaNder: Are you blaming the current Georgian government for actions taken by the country’s then leader 18 yrs. ago? If so, don’t you think it might be more appropriate to examine Georgia’s actions fr. a more recent perspective? Certainly, the Georgian invasion was wrong & deserved to be rolled back. But where is the denunciation of Russia’s invasion of Georgia? Or is it OK for Russia to violate the sovereignty of its neighbors?
@gene schulman:
You didn’t read carefully what I wrote & you’re changing yr argument. You claimed the U.S. & Israel essentially approved & even goaded Georgia into this invasion. I said that would be an interesting & damning development if true & asked if you had any proof. You didn’t reply to that & merely responded that Georgia & Israel supply & arm Georgia, all of which we know. There’s a diff. bet. supplying a country w. arms & goading it into hostile aggressive acts against its neighbors.
As for relying on the DEBKA file for any information…this is a highly propagandistic source I wouldn’t believe or trust unless it could be independently confirmed by more reliable sources. I don’t allow any pro-Israel commenters to use it to support arguments here. Interesting that a source you & I would normally detest becomes worth quoting when it serves our interest.
@Donald:
Stalin’s overthrowing all the governments of eastern Europe & installing puppet regimes wasn’t “more aggressive” than our own behavior? Again, I’m not arguing that U.S. policy is goody-goody or idealistic or even praiseworthy. But let’s call a spade a spade why don’t we & say both sides have dark marks against them.
I don’t see the point of comparing the relative destructiveness of the Iraq or Georgian invasions. They are both wrong & harmful in their respective regions. I don’t disagree w. the harshest criticisms that can be levelled at our invasion of Iraq. But I think the harshest criticism can also be justified in criticizing Russia’s current actions in Georgia.
@SimoHurtta:
I’d be delighted if you can point to anything I’ve said about Kosovo or Georgia that is wrong. Until then I think claiming that I’m uneducated about European politics is a cheap shot.
As for U.S. & Israel media: are you arguing that they’re forcing Americans or Israelis or anyone to believe a party line about anything? If so, again puh-leeze. We are all intelligent creatures who can see through lies when we read them. The Israeli media, in fact, presents a fairly reliable & realistic picture of the evils of the Occupation. You sound like you’re positing another conspiracy theory.
So, were/are you in favor of Chechen independence as well? After all, if the Kosovars, Palestinians & South Ossetians deserve the right to self-determination don’t the Chechens?
That’s not what you said. It’s one thing to be nervous about a country’s intentions. I’m nervous about Israel’s intentions. But I’d like you to state clearly that you believe Europe is in danger from Israel’s nuclear arsenal. If so, then we’ll all know you’re a ranting conspiracy monger.
@SimoHurtta:
No, I’m afraid that this statement is what’s absurd. Jews can be atheists, agnostics, Orthodox or anything in between. That’s the beauty of our religion, which you clearly don’t understand.
I am certainly critical of Israel’s preference for Jews over all other ethnic groups & the inherent bias against non-Jews. It is one of the things I object to most about the current Israeli state. But yr analysis is far too pat to be reliable or an indicator of anything other than yr own superficial judgements & prejudices.
@Michael Weis:
That’s actually a highly common but unfortunate misunderstanding of Jewish history. The Romans defeated the Jews in 136, sacked the Temple, & carried away Jewish slaves. But they never exiled Jews from Israel & in fact Yohanan ben Zakkai continued his school at Yavneh which formed the basis for rabbinic leadership of world Jewry.
If he had one she could ride anywhere on any bus she chose–except for a few lines which serve ultra Orthodox neighborhoods. And I’m not arguing that this policy on those lines is right. It isn’t. But this isn’t a social phenomenon throughout Jerusalem or Israwel. SimoHurtta: you’re again making sweeping generalizations when a little more precision would help yr argument a great deal.
“Stalin’s overthrowing all the governments of eastern Europe & installing puppet regimes wasn’t “more aggressive” than our own behavior? ”
Not much different from what we did in Guatemala or Iran, and for that matter, the entire Vietnam War, with its several million dead, was largely our fault. Even our Cold War involvement in Korea involves much darker shades of gray than we normally hear about in the mainstream press (massacres, carpet bombing of civilians, etc…), though obviously South Koreans are far, far better off than people in North Korea.
I wish I could remember to make all my points in one post.
Anyway, Richard, I can accept harsh criticism of Russia’s behavior from you (with some disagreements when you uncharacteristically downplay our crimes compared to Russia’s). I don’t accept them from most US politicians or mainstream pundits. They have no more credibility than Putin or Russian nationalists in general. In fact, I think modern-day Russia and the US have a lot in common when it comes to jingoism and hypocrisy on human rights issues.
So, were/are you in favor of Chechen independence as well? After all, if the Kosovars, Palestinians & South Ossetians deserve the right to self-determination don’t the Chechens?
Of course I do support the independence of Chechens. Have I said I don’t? So do I support the independence of Canadian French or US Indians and Latinos in the southern states, if they (majority of them) want that. What I was saying that Kosovo gave an example and for the sake of consistency the same new international “rules” and “demands” should be applied in Georgia. The world map will certainly be rather interesting when this trend “continues”. Maybe in the Olympics in 2052 there are 1000 nations.
I’d be delighted if you can point to anything I’ve said about Kosovo or Georgia that is wrong. Until then I think claiming that I’m uneducated about European politics is a cheap shot.
You make a claim about a “megalomaniac ethnic cleansing campaign of Serbia under Slobodan Milosevic”. Well did it actually happen and was it a counter reaction to the violent “independence” movement lead by outside forces. Interestingly US was training those Kosovo Albans in Albania long before the troubles erupted. The interesting question is why? Another interesting question is why over one thousand Israelis are training Georgian military forces. Well as we know Israel has certain experience to control minorities. :)
Mr Silverstein you also see the European politics even the Russian border countries’ policies and attitude with rather narrow US polaroid glasses. The reality is that many European countries have rather much understanding towards Russian attitudes and even actions. Also the speeches some right wing government officials in Europe speak do not refect the general attitude. Most of us understand if the Russian Bear is pushed to far it becomes really dangerous. Most of us understand that without co-operation with Russia Europe’s economic future will not be so bright. We need their oil, gas, raw material and markets more than you Americans. Russia needs Europe as a market, but in the forming new reality it has also a number of new clients and co-operation partners. We can’t simply not afford a new cold war which some US/Israeli circles want to create by force.
By the way the Head of World Congress of Russian Jewry accuses Georgia of genocide (story in Haaretz). The Israeli Jewry “heads” did not like his comments and ordered him to shut up. :)