Now, I have a case that has only happened here one other time in which a commenter created sock puppets voicing 2 diametrically opposite pts of view about the I-P conflict. I don’t know what such people are up to–whether they’re trying to pull a hoax at my expense, whether there’s a screw loose somewhere, etc.

Anyway, the latest is Harry B. publishing as a supposed anti-Zionist, while someone named Dennis Cook published using the same e mail & IP addresses. Here’s a sample of Dennis Cook, the militant Islamophobe:

Kuntar has admitted slaughtering a young family . He shot the Daddy in front of the 2 year old baby daughter and then crushed the baby’s skull…

But most daming for his people is the fact that in their “civilization ” a murderer of Jews will always be treated as a hero and has never and will never be put on trial.

BTW, there’s virtually nothing truthful or accurate about Harry B’s comment above regarding the Fatah fighters who received sanctuary in Israel. A load of drivel…Harry B/Dennis Cook have now been banned fr. commenting for violating comment rules. It appears that our schizoid commenter’s real name (though who knows?) may be Alan Bernson.

And I’m getting f’ing tired of yr snark. I’ve already banned 2 people tonight (one left–one right) & you’re not far fr. being the 3rd.

I heard the following report and would like some comments:

I received a phone call tonite from a friend in Gaza. He is a member of the FATAH and has participated in heroic actions against Zionist Occupiers and says that FATAH will never rest until Israel is destroyed , the Jews are driven out and all land is returned to a democratic Palestinian government

My friend tessl me that 150 armed FATAH men were arrested early this mornining by Hamas guys.

They were loaded on Hamas trucks and driven to the Gaza Israeli Border where at gunpoint, they were marched into Israel.

Five where shot dead by IDF soldiers. The Israelis have herded off the rest into tightly packed cells where they are denied food, water and are being beaten in a savage manner.

Some are badly injured but ar being denied admission to Israeli Hospitals.

My friend is appealing to all who are familiar with Zionist brutality to contact Congressmen, The Clintons, the Obamas and sound a humanitarian plea for help.Immediate action is needed .

Thank you.

Harry B.

a writer from Haaretz says something so that is true

A damn sight more likely to be true than anything you say, that’s for sure.

your response is -
I don’t believe it prove it!!

Not quite. My response was that the sources you quoted didn’t provide real evidence for their claim other than their own unsupported personal opinion. In cases like this personal opinion that is not backed by evidence has very little weight I’m afraid.

the fact that it was published in the Weekly Standard well then iyou can somehow relieve yourself of any moral complications

Unlike you, most of us judge what we read by lots of criteria–one of which is the ideological perspective of the publication. The Weekly Standard being a neocon friendly publication I have a certain level of mistrust of what it writes unless it is backed by sources & evidence.

a leader in the Muslim Brotherhood the grandson of Banna

Tariq Ramadan is NOT a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood. Are you being sloppy or were you really trying to get that little tidbit of egregiously false propaganda sail through??

As for yr claim that he supports the elimination of the state of Israel, I’m still waiting for any proof whatsoever that he really believes that. So far I hear none (& there is none). Which either means you know squat about Ramadan’s views; or you simply can’t be bothered to find & research them at his website.

LOL…. yes, but an open ended quote about Sharon and Arafat and you countenance that Sharon killed Arafat….
If someone who has extensively studied Ramadan writes a book adn is interviewed for an article as well as an Arab Muslim leader in France.. whom you don’t happen to know welll then you simply don’t believe it bcs it doesn’t meet your belieft sets or wants… not only that you don’t even countenance that it provides details that are worrisome… and the fact that it was published in the Weekly Standard well then iyou can somehow relieve yourself of any moral complications or grey areas… that may make you uncomfortalble… the most amazing thing you said is you don’t believe that he doesn’t want the State of Israel one way or thte other not to exist.. I know many Egyptians who are nice people and friends with many American Jews who admit that they want in their hearts although they may not live to see the day when the mistake of Israel is no longer there… yet a leader in the Muslim Brotherhood the grandson of Banna you don’t even countenance that he wants teh state of Israel not to exist… (and that’s not even in the top 10 of the worrisome belief sets put forth in the article)

Who’s got the rose colored blinders on?

…

you were all for an out and out fascist religious dictator speaking at Columbia

“Fascist?” Could you provide an iota of proof to show that Ahmadinejad is a fascist? Dictator? He was elected, hence not a dictator. In the next elections undoubtedly he will be defeated. Further proof he is no dictator. And yes, I was glad he had an opportunity to speak at Columbia & glad the university president & others stood their ground in criticizing him for his views.

Arafat was reported to have said by Egyptian intelligence

“Reported to have said?” Ah, again we have a little problem w. lack of sources. Who reported this or did you actually hear the intelligence agent w. yr own ears?

Wow, the right wing Weekly Standard has published unflattering things about the Ramadan family! I’m simply shocked. I must entirely renounce my former support for Tariq Ramadan now that you have provided such non partisan & incontrovertible proof of his absolute perfidy. Puh-leeze!

he writer then details that Ramadan strongly favors eliminating the State of Israel…

Now I know the entire Weekly Standard critique is bullshit unless you’re mischaracterizing what was written there (which knowing you, is entirely possible). Ramadan does not favor eliminating the state of Israel. He has never said it. He doesn’t believe it. This statement is a bald faced lie. I dare you to provide a scintilla of evidence. And I mean statements in the man’s own words & not the distortions of partisan hacks who are only to happy to put words in Ramadan’s mouth.

I note that the critics of Ramadan you quote almost never provide any proof of their claims based on Ramadan’s actual writing. They merely make claims based on their own evaluation of the evidence. This is entirely unacceptable in this debate. THis is a perfect example;

I’ve studied his statements and his writing. I was struck by the extent to which the discourse of Tariq Ramadan is often just a repetition of the discourse that Banna had at the beginning of the 20th century in Egypt.

**

A moderate Muslim is then quoted

I always trust political characterizations made by people like you. This person is a “moderate” Muslim? Says who? Don’t you mean he’s a “good” Muslim, as opposed to all those “bad” Muslims like Ramadan??

PLEASE NOTE: You will no longer be permitted to publish more than a single extended comment per day here. I have many other commenters & like to repsond to all of them. I simply don’t have time to respond to multiple questions of yours in a single day. And I simply have no patience for comments that run into the hundreds of words. No one reads them & I don’t know why people bother. Make yr argument. Make it short and sweet. If you have to ramble then you’re abusing the privilege.

anyone who would disagree must be a fascist

No, I didn’t say that. I said Feiglin is a fascist. If he’s not, prove it.

Interesting??? You agreed to have Feiglin not be admitted to countries…? due to his association with Kahane and things he has said? Funny how the ACLU Civil Liberties are selectively applied? Yet you were all for an out and out fascist religious dictator speaking at Columbia… the ever switching standards or hypocrisy… but not to divert off course here.
Arafat was welcomed into these countries… and he not only talked about and promoted violence and terrorism he actually directed it for decades ever prior to Oslo.
So teaching kids to engage in violent murder and promoting it isn’t so bad when compared to Feiglin?? Verrrrry interesting.

Further notably Arafat was reported to have said by Egyptian intelligence when asked about a parapalegic Jew on the hijacked Achille Lauro –

”Dump that Jew in the Ocean”…

Ahhh, yes but Feiglin really gets the hairs on your chest in a self righteous frenzy.

Back to Ramadan here are a few quotes from the article posted at the Weekly Standard -
First a small background on his dad –
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/800naxnt.asp

Said Ramadan took refuge first in Saudi Arabia, where he was a founder of the World Islamic League, one of the largest Saudi charities and global missionary groups. He then moved to Geneva, where in 1961 he created the Islamic Center, a combination mosque, think tank, and community center. The philosophy of the Muslim Brotherhood influenced a generation of wealthy Muslim kids, including Osama bin Laden. Interestingly, Said Ramadan also had U.S. connections: He had a close relationship with Malcolm X and was personal mentor to Dawud Salahuddin, a black convert to Islam who murdered an Iranian dissident, Ali Akbar Tabatabai, in Bethesda, Maryland, in 1980. After fleeing the United States, Salahuddin spent a few days in Geneva visiting Said Ramadan before taking refuge in Iran. Profiled in the New Yorker in 2002, Salahuddin confirmed that Ramadan remained his adviser and spiritual guide until Ramadan’s death in 1995.

Ok now now directly to Tariq -

But not all who know him are buying. One of Ramadan’s interfaith partners, Fr. Christian Delorme, had this to say in 2001:

I am today convinced–and it took me time to understand it–that Tariq Ramadan’s thinking and actions are dangerous. I believe he is not at all a man of dialogue. He knows how to charm his audience, but in reality, he wants a total separation between Muslims and other communities. I am convinced that Tariq Ramadan deeply hates the West.

For example, Ramadan greatly influenced Djamel Beghal, a French citizen arrested for plotting to bomb the U.S. embassy in Paris and sentenced to 10 years in jail in March 2005. Sylvain Besson of the Swiss daily Le Temps quotes court papers showing that Beghal “was a speechwriter for Tariq Ramadan.” Ramadan denies ever meeting Beghal, although Beghal was living in Leicester in 1998 while Ramadan was studying there.

Ramadan quotes after 9/11 of course asked “who profited from this” and it continues -

This is an argument used by Islamist conspiratorialists who accuse Israel of perpetrating 9/11. In an interview with the French newsmagazine Le Point, Ramadan used the neutral term “interventions” when speaking of the major terrorist attacks in New York, Bali, and Madrid. And when asked recently by an Italian magazine whether car bombings against U.S. forces in Iraq were justified, he was quoted as saying: “Iraq was colonized by the Americans. Resistance against the army is just.”

They were “interventions”. The writer then details that Ramadan strongly favors eliminating the State of Israel… but not at all fascist belief like Feiglin

Most important quote at the end -
“When an interviewer from the weekly L’Express asked Fourest how she could be so sure that Ramadan was indeed the “political heir of his grandfather,” Hassan al-Banna, here’s how she replied:”

Because I’ve studied his statements and his writing. I was struck by the extent to which the discourse of Tariq Ramadan is often just a repetition of the discourse that Banna had at the beginning of the 20th century in Egypt. He never criticizes his grandfather. On the contrary, he presents him as a model to be followed, a person beyond reproach, nonviolent and unjustly criticized because of the “Zionist lobby”! This sends chills down one’s spine when one knows the extent to which Banna was a fanatic, that he gave birth to a movement out of which the worst Jihadis (like Ayman al-Zawahiri, the number 2 man of al Qaeda) have emerged, and that he wanted to establish a theocracy in every country having a single Muslim.
Tariq Ramadan claims that he is not a Muslim Brother. Like all the Muslim Brothers . . . since it’s a fraternity which is three-quarters secret. . . . A Muslim Brother is above all someone who adopts the methods and the thought of Banna. Ramadan is the man who has done the most to disseminate this method and this thought.

A moderate Muslim is then quoted -

Fourest is not the only one who has seen through Ramadan’s game. Prominent moderate Muslims also accuse Ramadan of double talk. For instance, the head of the largest French antiracism association, SOS Racisme, Malek Boutih (an Arab Muslim), told Ramadan after talking with him at length: “Mr. Ramadan, you are a fascist.”

So not even is there not a concern with Mr. Silverstein he is fact a kvelling cheerleader of sorts of this man while admitting he’d approve a ban of Feiglin for the same standards.
Further, anyone who would disagree must be a fascist

he was the one who taught you this “spiritual” theology.

For you to know what Tariq Ramadan’s father taught him you either would’ve had to have been a member of his family or a learned expert on the ideas of both father & son. Are you either? I thought not.

you supported some European countries denying some Israeli leaders entry and/or arresting them if they did.. but would cheer a Tariq Ramadan

Actually, I’m in favor of European countries allowing entry to IDF generals wanted for war crimes so they can be charged for those acts. I was also in favor of Britain denying entry to Moshe Feiglin because he is a direct descendant of Meir Kahane though more powerful as a senior leader of Likud.

When you can prove that Ramadan’s views are as racist & hateful toward Jews or anyone else as Feiglin’s views are towards Arabs, then I’d consider endorsing the former’s exclusion fr. European countries.

Yr argument is interesting because now that you’ve discovered there aren’t any European countries which have excluded him as you erroneously claimed, you’ve switched gears. Now yr claim is that they WOULD HAVE been justified in excluding him based on alleged beliefs of his father or grandfather. And in addition, you’re attempting to take me to task because I don’t oppose excluding Israeli fascists to European countries.

nor that he stocked billions in aid in European and Kuwaiti bank accounts bcs you’ve not “seen proof”

Again, you’re hallucinating. I never said anything about yr claim that Arafat was corrupt. I have no doubt he was. Though it’s interesting that his corruption seems to offend you much more deeply than corruption of Israeli politicians like Olmert, Sharon, etc.

eInin this case there are striking similarities and you were not only raised by your dad who was the spiritual teacher and promoter of the Muslim Brotherhood theology which is causing problems all around the world but he was the one who taught you this “spiritual” theology.

Further, you didn’t refute the point that an interfaith leader in Europe who used to be in Ramadan’s court now says he is just a very slick engaging coverman for radical Muslim Brotherhood theology.

It’s rather amazing you supported some European countries denying some Israeli leaders entry and/or arresting them if they did.. but would cheer a Tariq Ramadan and then laughingly mock me as a right wing “apartchick” for this administration….. meanwhile a murderer like Arafat is welcomed into France and you state you don’t believe he died of Aids nor that he stocked billions in aid in European and Kuwaiti bank accounts bcs you’ve not “seen proof”… the “proof” standard can be used at whim to meet whatever your beliefs are, lol!