Barghouti for Shalit? « Tikun Olam-תיקון עולם: Make the World a Better Place

Barghouti for Shalit?

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Tags: gilad-shalit, jimmy-carter

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39 Responses to “Barghouti for Shalit?”

LeaNder says:

July 22, 2008 at 8:56 AM

Richard, are you aware of this Daniel Pipes article?

Richard Silverstein Shoots himself in the Foot

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fiddler says:

July 22, 2008 at 9:25 AM

*Is* it due to efforts of Hamas that Marwan Barghouti is considered for release (if true)? Or was it Jimmy Carter’s idea? Or even a backhanded Israeli attempt to throw into the political arena the possible nemesis you speak of, supposed to accomplish politically where Mohammed Dahlan failed with brute force? Or is it a sign of beginning reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah? From the linked articles we don’t know.
I’d welcome his release, a man of immense authority with Palestinians of all factions, level-headed, not corrupt, and able to work with both Israel and the Islamists.

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Shlomo Glickstein says:

July 22, 2008 at 9:42 PM

This writer seems bemused by the moral equivalence of a lead “militant” in hamas who engineering suicide bombings and Barghouti who was convicted to several life sentences for several murders of civilians not to mention UN sponsored observers for which he was never tried – in exchange for an Israeli kid doing guard post in Israel.

Ah, but the moral equivlence never knows any boundaries….
Perhaps, we could trade a Richard Silverstein for a Gilad Shalit… we could become zionist reistance fighters kidnap him and then make a blog where one morally equivocates that act to say?… the Blind Sheikh?

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Shlomo Glickstein says:

July 22, 2008 at 10:13 PM

I suppose if Israel had Goldstein in a revolving door prison where he took weekend furloughs whenever he pleased you couldn’t blame the PA for trying to take him and put him in a Palestinian prison… where he would be summarily executed… unlike Kuntar a child murderer, Barghouti and Sadaat…. But to you Sadaat and the like are simply political reistance fighters no different in morality than a kid on IDF guard duty… Please dictate to us how one is supposed to think about this… so one can memorize the thought for the day.

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 22, 2008 at 10:25 PM

@LeaNder:

Wow, Daniel Pipes is taking me on…I’m impressed. Just in case anyone does follow the link to read Pipes’ typical smear job. Here are a few points to keep in mind. Pipes would like you believe that Ramadan supported Islamic terror because he gave money to Islamic charities “on the blacklist.” The only problem with this statement is that the charities were “on the blacklist” years after Ramadan actually gave them funds. So in effect we’re criminalizing Ramadan because he couldn’t foresee the future & recognize that these groups WOULD eventually end up on a U.S. blacklist.

Pipes claims he had no involvement in Ramadan’s exclusion. The fact is that Pipes levelled his smears against Ramadan publicly and even if Pipes did not personally bring his writings to the attention of Homeland Security, the personnel there are certainly capable of monitoring his writing & acting upon his charges while doing little or nothing to verify their accuracy. Pipes is one of the most prominent anti-Muslim writers in this country who singled Ramadan out for opprobrium. It is highly likely in an Administration as hostile to Muslims as this one that his word would be taken highly seriously when they are considered excluding Ramadan.

Pipes attempts to take me to task for his false allegation that Rashi Khalidi supports “Arab radicalism.” His proof? Khalidi was ” a spokesman” for the PLO. When did this act of radicalism occur? “A quarter century ago” by Pipes’ own admission. What further proof does he adduce? That he approves of Palestinian resistance to the Israeli Occupation. Note I said “resistance,” and not “violent resistance” because that’s not what Khalidi said. Yes, folks resistance is now criminalized in the twisted, hateful mind of Daniel Pipes.

I have to say that I am proud to a target of that man. And in case he’s listening: Pipes claims I must be obsessed to have mentioned him “sixteen times in the past four years” (yes, folks he actually counted). Get over yrself, former professor Pipes. I’m not obsessed with you. But I have a laser-like focus on the lies of the Jewish right and a goal of exposing them. That’s why I’ve kept my eye on you.

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 22, 2008 at 11:44 PM

@Shlomo Glickstein:

to you Sadaat and the like are simply political reistance fighters no different in morality than a kid on IDF guard duty

No, this is a lie. I never said Sadaat was a hero or comparable to an IDF soldier. You clearly haven’t bothered reading anything else I’ve written here. I don’t support violence of any kind against civilians. While I found Zeevi’s politics disgusting, I certainly don’t support his assassination no more than I support the assassination by Israel of countless Palestinian political leaders.

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 22, 2008 at 11:54 PM

@Shlomo Glickstein: You may find the idea of advocating kidnapping me a big joke. I don’t. Plenty of assholes have advocated far worse here & I take such “jokes” seriously. Try it again & you’ll be banned.

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Donald says:

July 23, 2008 at 5:03 AM

There’s a rhetorical technique common to many self-styled defenders of Israel which I first became aware of with Madelaine Albright when she said that demolishing homes was not the moral equivalent of suicide bombing. The technique is this–compare a lesser crime of the Israelis with a greater crime by the Palestinians and pretend that this is a reasonable way to summarize the moral standing of the two sides.

Which is what Shlomo is doing here, taking advantage of Richard’s post, which was not about comparative morality.

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LeaNder says:

July 23, 2008 at 5:31 AM

Interesting, Richard. Thanks, I am not too knowledgeable in the profundities of the debate.

What I found rather telling though, is that my ultimate favorite of your articles got attacked and not another.

Somehow this reminds me that this mindset considered it important to keep post-Imagine John Lennon under FBI surveillance.

*******************************************
Concerning the larger context, this drew my attention today:

But this is a rare gem I would like to share:
Why Norman Finkelstein is a Pariah

My suggestion for the headline:
Joker trying to control minimal deviation again fails spectacularly, while allowing us a revealing glimpse of his mazed mind.

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fiddler says:

July 23, 2008 at 11:28 AM

As if on cue: http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=64394&sectionid=351020202
The article doesn’t say who exactly was detained, but sounds like it’s connected to the recent raid of the Solidarity charity and its tenants in Nablus. Richard has blogged about it some two weeks ago.
If I was a Palestinian, regardless of affiliation, I’d ask myself what sense any exchange of prisoners, or rather hostages, makes when Israel continues to kidnap civilians at will, even before the deal is through. And if I was a militant Palestinian, I’d regard this as an open invitation to respond in kind. Soldiers, civilians, lawmakers, they’re all the same bunch, according to Israeli policy.

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bar_kochba132 says:

July 23, 2008 at 11:54 AM

Fiddler tells us that Barghout is “level headed, not corrupt” and all sorts of other nice things. I guess sitting in jail for 5 counts of first-degree murder is just a minor detail (one of those counts he was convicted on was a girl who had attended my synagogue). Please tell me, Fiddler, how do you know he is “not corrupt”? Have you checked his books? Or is this one of these things that “everyone” knows. I recall how Amira Hass of Ha’aretz used to tell us how “clean and uncorruptible” HAMAS was, then she changed her tune, after they looted all the goodies the FATAH people left after the coup in Gaza.
If you like “honest, clean people”, there were plenty of “honest, dedicated” people in the SS and NKVD as well. This didn’t make them saints, though.

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 23, 2008 at 2:16 PM

@bar_kochba132:

Score one for Bar Kochba, master of the inapt historical analogy. Comparing Hamas to Stalin & the SS–I gotta hand it to ya, you’ve enetered new territory in political sloganeering & propagandizing.

If Barghouti is “corrupt” or rendered ineligible for national leadership then I suppose we should’ve done the same for Begin & Shamir, who were equally culpable of planning terror attacks that murdered innocent civilians. Funny, but you’ll never hear that historical analogy from Bar Kochba. A guess it’s a little uncomforable for him & hits a little too close to home.

I’m not defending either side from such terror attacks & I’m sure if I’d lost someone close to me in such an attack I would be angry too. But I wouldn’t make the mistake of blaming only one side as Bar Kochba constantly does.

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fiddler says:

July 24, 2008 at 8:28 AM

Thanks, Richard. Some additional points: I estimate Barghouti as non-corrupt (I never said “uncorruptible”) on account of his leadership of the Palestinian Young Guard, explicitly opposed to the corruption and nepotism of the “Tunisians”, notably Arafat. Of course, since his detention he’s had little opportunity to compromise himself, but how one can conclude from that that he is indeed corrupt escapes me. By the same token you could say we’re all murderers who just haven’t done the deed yet.

On his trial and conviction, here’s Simon Foreman’s report for the Inter-Parliamentary Union:
http://www.ipu.org/hr-e/174/report.htm
Bar Kochba is quite right, conviction in a show trial IS a minor detail. It says nothing about Barghouti and everything about Israel’s political judiciary.

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Shlomo Glickstein says:

July 24, 2008 at 4:32 PM

Ramadan is banned from some European countries as well… not just the US. He is in my opinion just a slick spoksman arm of the Muslim Brotherhood and its branches.

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 24, 2008 at 9:57 PM

@Shlomo Glickstein: I’m going to consider this a lie until/unless you can prove otherwise. I just did a Google search on it which turns up no evidence to support you. In fact, Ramadan teaches on the faculties of schools in several European countries so it would be difficult for him to do so if he was banned in any of them. So the ball’s in your court. If you’re not a bald faced liar you’ll provide evidence.

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bar_kochba132 says:

July 25, 2008 at 6:16 AM

Richard, I didn’t say HAMAS was the “same” as the SS and NKVD. There are differences and there are similarities. It is the similarities that worry me. You probably heard about German “progressive” writer Gunter Grass who “forget” to tell everyone for 60 years that he had volunteered for the Waffen-SS. When asked to explain why, he stated that it was for idealistic reasons…..he explained that it was to fight for a united Europe, to fight both Communism and Wall Street Capitalism, British Imperialism, etc. Very idealistic. The NKVD were also idealists…they wanted to end capitalist exploitation, to further the dictatorship of the proletariat, to end class distinctions. I am sure the Barghouti is no less “idealist” then they were.

Fiddler-you apparently are not aware of how Palestinian politics works. The “young guard” wants to get ahold of the goodies (e.g. the EU aid) that the old geezers have been hogging to themselves for years. Any regime that Barghouti and his youngsters would set up would be no different than the current FATAH and HAMAS (yes, they are corrupt, too) regimes.

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fiddler says:

July 25, 2008 at 7:31 AM

Bar Kochba, you should consider a career as stand-up comedian.
I am aware how politics work. The “young guard” (Livni, Netanyahu, Barak, Obama, Clinton, Sarkozy, Gysi, Westerwelle, Putin, Yushchenko, Tsvangirai and so on ad infinitum) wants to get ahold of the goodies (e.g. the EU and US aid, oil and gas revenues etc.) that the alten kacker have been hogging to themselves for decades. Reason for concern I see only if that’s all they want, or else if they claim to be so idealistic that they don’t want any of it.

Günter Grass did NOT volunteer for the Waffen-SS. He did volunteer for the Wehrmacht in 1942 or ’43, aged 15. In November ’44, aged 17, he was commandeered to the Waffen-SS. When he was captured by the Americans in May ’45 he identified himself as a member of the Waffen-SS, so it was in the public records all along. It’s true that afterwards he kept silent about that until 2006. It’s ridiculous to conclude from that short episode as a teenager that he seriously subscribed to nazi ideology, and to name him in one breath with the NKVD just compounds the display of ignorance.

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 25, 2008 at 5:52 PM

@bar_kochba132: I have read a good deal about the Gunter Grass incident. And while I find his behavior objectionable, I’ve never read any such explanation fr. him about why he joined. I would urge you to find some corroborating evidence for it before I’d credit it as true. He was 14 or 15 yrs old at the time. I think it’s hard to find fault with what he did as a minor teenager though his hiding of the fact is reprehensible.

While we’re talking about the corruption of Palestinian politics can we also talk about the corruption characterizing Israeli politics. What’s the difference. At least the Palestinians have a leader who doesn’t force his supporters to buy first class airline tickets when he travels to NY & doesn’t inveigle them to put him up in $2,000/night hotel suites (as Israel does).

I think you are the pot calling the kettle black here.

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bar_kochba132 says:

July 26, 2008 at 10:57 AM

Richard:

The Palestinian political system and civil society is FAR, FAR more corrupt than Israel’s or any Western country. You are aware of the investigations that found a huge percentage of the aid that was given by the US and EU since Oslo was stolen. It is not enough to say “well, there is corruption in Israel so therefore the two systems are the same”. There are objective measures for these things. If Barghouti should become head of the PA, I am sure his system will be more or less corrupt as the current one, the only difference will be who is getting the money.

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Solomon123 says:

July 27, 2008 at 4:33 PM

I’ll trade you 300 Hamas activists and a Barghouti for a Shalit. The bartering now going on preceding a potential prisoner exchange between Israel and Hamas reminds one of teenagers trading baseball cards.

As I said this paragraph intimates a level of “bemusement” at the trading of cold blooded murderers to free a kid on IDF guard duty…
Also, as I previously stated – since as could have been banked on – the Palestinians flouted the agreement brokered by the Europeans on them “imprisoning” Sadaat and gang…. Thus, Israel had every right to take him and imprison him themselves… and bcs the Israelis make trades of several high level murderers for a kidnapped IDF soldier regularly or simply for information on airman Arad which they didn’t get… if having Sadaat helped win the release of this kid, (however bad the Israelis negotiation tech’s are) though I hate the trade, then that’s an unfortunate but good result… and I don’t appreciate your mocking of it…

Note – if Goldstein were in a joke motel and got weekend furloughs or simply walked out whenever he felt than the PA and Al Jazeera would go nuts and rightfully so… instead he is in isolation not allowed conjugal visits meanwhile the child murderer, Kuntar gets a free education and apparently has 24/7 access to all you can eat buffets…

Finally regarding Ramadan, I know I read articles last year that mentioned he had also been denied a a visa to either Britain or France… but I do believe it was France to speak…
Also, I could be mistaken but do not believe I am… and find it rather beyond high schoolish… 3rd graderish.. the “prove it or else you’re a bald faced liar”…… routine… it’s akin to I know you are but what am I… and just a tad childish… ya think?

Finally – it is rather ironic of all the tragic things mentioned in this thread the one you took the most apparent umbrage about was the indication that Ramadan was denied a visa to a European country last year sometime.

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fiddler says:

July 28, 2008 at 8:10 AM

It took me 5 minutes of googling to find this on Tariq Ramadan’s web site:

“[Daniel] Pipes notes that I was banned from entering France in 1996 on suspicion of having links with an Algerian Islamist who had recently initiated a terrorist campaign in Paris.

Yes, I was indeed banned from entering France between November 1995 and April 1996, but a reason was never given for this ban, and it was later revealed to be a case of mistaken identity. I challenged the ban and won the case in 1996. Any assertion that this ban was for having “links with an Algerian Islamist” is baseless.”

(http://www.tariqramadan.com/article.php3?id_article=0068&lang=en)

Is that Baruch Goldstein you’re talking about? He’s dead, so I suppose you could say “he is in isolation not allowed conjugal visits”, but why would you?

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 28, 2008 at 10:14 PM

@Solomon123:

If Goldstein were in a joke motel and got weekend furloughs…

You seem to have mistaken Baruch Goldstein (who is dead) & Yigal Amir, who isn’t. Can’t tell one Jewish assassin from another, can you?

Well, Fiddler has proven you’re not a bald faced liar, just woefully uninformed & out of date.

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fiddler says:

July 29, 2008 at 7:55 AM

Ah, but if Solomon meant Amir then I don’t see why the Palestinians should be so terribly interested in his detainment conditions. Not that he’s in the least popular with them, but “go nuts”, nah.

(And for the record, I personally am very much opposed to *anyone* being held in isolation, except perhaps in the most extraordinary – and most temporary – circumstances.)

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 29, 2008 at 4:37 PM

@fiddler: To catch all the right-wing lies, misinformation, & garbage spewed here you need a few extra researchers. So thanks Fiddler for pointing out what Solomon could’ve researched on his own. He clearly doesn’t care whether anyone pokes holes a mile wide through his claims. I can respect someone w. opposing views to mine as long as they’re not sloppy & insulting in attempting to pass off untruth as fact.

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Solomon123 says:

July 29, 2008 at 8:00 PM

Um… the only one who is insulting and over the top is yourself there Mr. Silverstein (or else you’re a bald faced liar) (the right wing can’t get straight the mass murderers lol!!) Re: Ramadan I wrote ” I believe he was denied a visa”… etc…

FFurther, one does not have to be part of some right wing online army to be opposed to your views or opinions though that’s the straw man argument you love to create with over the top rhetoric.

AAlso, again as I pointed out I don’t appreciate your mocking of the trading of these imo mass murderers for a kid on guard duty…

Fiddler was Ramadan recently – last 3 years – officially or unofficially denied a visa to speak in France?

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 29, 2008 at 11:01 PM

@Solomon123:

I wrote ” I believe he was denied a visa”

I conceded you weren’t lying, only woefully misinformed. So what is wrong with that statement? Yr problem is you rely on evidence fr charlatans like Daniel Pipes who is almost always misinformed. Ramadan was denied a visa for a few months based on a case of mistaken identity. If it took Fiddler five minutes to uncover this evidence why couldn’t you? And why can’t you be bothered to find out whether he’s been denied a visa to a European country in the last 3 yrs as you ask Fiddler? He shouldn’t have to do yr research for you.

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fiddler says:

July 30, 2008 at 8:12 AM

Tariq Ramadan is a Swiss citizen, and as such he doesn’t need a visa to visit any EU country. A country (other than Switzerland) can however explicitly declare him “persona non grata”, that’s what happened in late 1995. I’m not aware that it happened again since in Europe. I also note that the US State Dept, which continues to deny him a visa, has cleared him from all accusations that led to the revocation of his visa in the first place.
I am however neither his spokesman nor an expert on all things Ramadan, and yes, people can indeed do their own research, preferably *before* they spout nonsense.

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Shlomo Glickstein says:

July 31, 2008 at 9:33 AM

it’s called a give and take question… Silverstein takes himself a bit too seriously…. I looked up on Google and only thing I found was the Weekly Standard article in support of denying him a visa. On a Civil Liberties pure basis the points they make could be easily turned aside… but of course Ramadan isn’t a citizen of this country and as such isn’t guaranteed entrance.. further, the State Dept is hardly under the thumb of the so-called “right wing” in fact it could be argued that sections of it are heavily Arabist influenced and under some Saudi influence.. even though the Dept of Homeland Security did request he be denied… the State Dept is the dept who said no.

Further, considering who is father and grandfather are/were and the fact that the article does cite a European interfaith leader who used to support Ramadan who now states he is just a slick cover salesman for Wahabi extremist Islam that is pretty concerning.

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 31, 2008 at 12:04 PM

@Shlomo Glickstein:

the State Dept is hardly under the thumb of the so-called “right wing”

How clearly you reveal yr ideological bias & blinders. Every element of this Administration, including State, is under the thumb of the right wing. Denying Ramadan entry was an ideological decision based on no evidence whatsoever. But you are right, any nation can deny entrance to any non-citizen for virtually no reason, which is pretty much what happened here. If that’s the kind of country you want to live in, be my guest. But it’s not the kind of country that I or my readers want to live in. Come the next Administration, Ramadan will be teaching at Notre Dame and lecturing around this country on subjects he chooses. And that’s as it should be, and should’ve been.

that is pretty concerning

You’d make an excellent Bush immigration apparatchik. You’d make decisions based on whim just as the current cabal does. If my grandfather was a bootlegger does that make me one–or an alcoholic? Children are not responsible for the alleged sins of their fathers or grandfathers–or haven’t you been reading yr Tanach?

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SShlomo Glickstein says:

July 31, 2008 at 4:23 PM

Of course what you state is true… you are not responsible for your father or grandfather.. only problem is it’s not that simple.

eInin this case there are striking similarities and you were not only raised by your dad who was the spiritual teacher and promoter of the Muslim Brotherhood theology which is causing problems all around the world but he was the one who taught you this “spiritual” theology.

Further, you didn’t refute the point that an interfaith leader in Europe who used to be in Ramadan’s court now says he is just a very slick engaging coverman for radical Muslim Brotherhood theology.

It’s rather amazing you supported some European countries denying some Israeli leaders entry and/or arresting them if they did.. but would cheer a Tariq Ramadan and then laughingly mock me as a right wing “apartchick” for this administration….. meanwhile a murderer like Arafat is welcomed into France and you state you don’t believe he died of Aids nor that he stocked billions in aid in European and Kuwaiti bank accounts bcs you’ve not “seen proof”… the “proof” standard can be used at whim to meet whatever your beliefs are, lol!

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