you accused me of attempting to “disguise [myself] as a progressive”

Yes, you said your views about Israeli politics were as far from right wing as can be. Then proceeded to mouth opinions characteristic of the pro-Israel right-wing. I don’t have any interest in yr views on any subject except the I-P conflict. In this, you fail the test of self-describing yrself as anything other than right of center.

…By preventing Israel from taking defensive measures against Hezbollah, Hamas, and other inplacable [sic] foes of Israel’s existence.

Once again & for what seems the 1,000th time. Divestment does NOT prevent Israel from defending itself against terror & I challenge you to provide a single iota of evidence it does.

I find it hard to see how it does not currently play a crucial role in protecting Israeli civilians from terrorist groups

Then you know nothing about conditions along the route of the fence. There are literally miles & miles of the Separation Wall that are easily scalable by Palestinians. Terrorists have penetrated the Wall before & will continue to do so. The Wall provides a porous defense at best. But the Wall is not part of this discussion & divestment & I-97 does not deal w. it. So pls. keep on topic. This is one of my comment rules & I insist on respecting it.

Iran, that currently denies and regularly threatens Israel’s very existence.

Again, you show you’ve been reading pro-Israel propaganda sites. Iran has never “threatened” Israel. It has said that Israel will disappear from the map. It has never said that Iran would cause Israel to disappear. I suppose that’s a minor rhetorical distinction to you. But unlike you, language is important to me. I understand that there’s a difference bet. you saying to me: “I wish your blog would disappear” and “I’m going to make your blog disappear.” One is a wish (not a nice wish, but nevertheless a wish), the other a threat.

you have brought into the Arab propaganda machine

You mean there’s an Arab equivalent of the Israeli GIYUS-hasbara PR program?

I actually put Benny Morris in the revisionist anti-zionist catagory [sic].

Which only serves to show yr utter ignorance. You’re in a rightist pro-Israel time warp circa 1980, which is when Benny Morris was a revisionist New Historian. He was never, even in his most left wing days anti-Zionist. Since the first intifada Morris has been as far to the Israeli right as you can get. He even berates Ben Gurion for not expelling more than the 700,000 Israeli Arabs who were driven fr. Israel in 1948. Last week in the NY Times Morris called for Israel to drop atomic weapons on Iran. That certainly sounds like a far-left anti-Zionist to me.

You know, I don’t mind well-informed opponents debating the issues here. But people like you give yr political perspective a bad name because you can’t even be bothered to keep up on the issues and know what you’re talking about. When was the last time you read anything by or about Benny Morris??

Please enlighten us how to returning the Golan and demilitarizing the borders are going to guarantee security for Israel?

It means that Syria too will no longer have its armed forces poised to strike Israel from its border. It means Syria will no longer arm Hezbollah nor allow Iran to do so. It means Syria will no longer seek Iran’s support & thus further isolate the latter in the Arab world. That sure sounds like almost guaranteed Israeli security to me.

Most Arab nations refuse to recognize Israel as a country.

Which is precisely what Syria has publicly said it is willing to do if Israel returns the Golan. Which is precisely what is being negotiated as I write this bet. Syria & Israel in Istanbul under Turkish auspices.

Fafnir the mouse (search Youtube),

That’s Farfour, not Fafnir. Arabic not yr strong suit I guess? Nor is research.

they enjoy a much higher standard of living than their brethren in neighboring countries.

This seems like the 40th time an apologist like you claims that Israeli Arabs are shiny happy Israeli people. The correct comparison is not to OTHER ARAB COUNTRIES, because they are not citizens of other Arab countries. The correct comparison is to their fellow Jewish citizens. When you make that comparison Arabs universally come out on the short end of the stick–in fact on the short end of every educational, financial, social & political benchmark. Tell me how Israeli Arabs fare compared to Israeli Jews. That’s all that’s relevant & all that interests me or them.

I write Mohammed [as] a matter of respect…

Before I laugh myself silly, do please tell us how you respect Arabs or Islam. You’ve written nothing but hateful drivel concerning them in yr comments here. Tell us one thing you actually respect about Arabs or Islam.

Its a matter of respect for other religions, faiths and opinions. Something clearly missing from your posts.

I respect all religions including my own. I do not repsect those who pervert their own religion including my own. I see no reason to show respect to people like you who clearly detest Arabs & Islam.

Know however, that your opinions, at least in this country, are in the minority, and that will be proven when I-97 fails at the polls.

Once again you make a claim w/o providing a shred of evidence proving it. I, on the other hand, routinely quote numerous opinion surveys here which show that my views are largely in the American Jewish mainstream. So do some homework & prove my views are NOT in the mainstream. I challenge you to try it.

And I never claimed that I-97 would win. I never claimed that every single one of my views is in the majority. Concerning divestment, the majority does not YET side with me. But the longer the Occupation continues the more opinion will shift toward me. THis is how political currents have gone over the past 40 years. At one time talks with the PLO were criminalized in Israel. Now, Israel recognizes it & the PLO accepts Israel’s existence. The 2 state solution was once anathema & now it is accpeted in the mainstream. History is with me I’m afraid.

brutal violence against them (including rapes, massacres, etc) which ‘persuaded’ them to leave; or by Israeli forces which forcibly expelled them”

. Lies and bullcrap. I actually put Benny Morris in the revisionist anti-zionist catagory. The fact that you consider him a right winger is illuminating..it shows how pro-Arab you are, and how unwilling you are to listen to facts and reason. I’ll add that you seem to have a fairly unique definition of political “right” and “left”..not shared by most.

The “Facts and Logic about the Middle East” site is exactly what it claims. Well documented, intellectually honest analysis. I have yet to see any information from you, or any of the apologists for Hamas/Hezbollah/PLO/PFLP/other terrorist organizations

As to your “underlying issues”

Underlying issues are returning the Golan, returning Shebaa Farms, exchanging prisoners, normalizing relations, demilitarizing the borders, returning most conquered land (67 borders), withdrawing fr. settlements, guaranteeing security for both sides.

I’m game. Please enlighten us how to returning the Golan and demilitarizing the borders are going to guarantee security for Israel? Normalizing relationships didn’t work…Most Arab nations refuse to recognize Israel as a country. Returning most conquered land? Hmm..Gaza is now a terrorist camp. Southern Lebanon has been turned into a Hezbollah artillery battery. The UN? They’ve been in southern lebanon..useless. Israel saw how the UN defended them in the Sinai in 1967. So..any suggestions on how to guarantee Israel’s security against 3 million Palestinian Arabs indoctrinated from the cradle to despise and hate Israel? You could ask Fafnir the mouse (search Youtube), to see how their children are brought up to “give peace a chance”.

Israeli Arabs do not want to give up their citizenship. As I said before, they enjoy a much higher standard of living than their brethren in neighboring countries. Some, like the Druze and Bedouin, even serve in the IDF.

As to why I write G-d? same reason I write Mohammed (PBUH). Its a matter of respect for other religions, faiths and opinions. Something clearly missing from your posts.

In any case, its clear that you are not open to constructive discourse and dialog on this blog, so I’ll trouble you no more. Know however, that your opinions, at least in this country, are in the minority, and that will be proven when I-97 fails at the polls.

Its a shame you still never answered my original question. Without an answer to this question, every arguement you have is meaningless.

What Occupation I ask you? What country exactly is being occupied?

Are we talking about the occupation of Jordanian territory? Egyptian territory? Turkish territory? What country are you claiming is occupied?

“While a few may have been forced out, the majority of them fled, exhorted on by Arab governments promising they could return once the land had been “watered with the blood of the Jews”.

Most Israeli historians, including right-wingers like Yoav Gelber and semi-right-wingers like Yehoshua Porath (and, of course, Benni Morris), not to mention the left-wingers, admit that the exhortation by Arab governments and leaders is by and large a Zionist myth. My guess you picked it up from Ephraim Karsh or something of the sort, but you should know that this is a totally discredited lie.
But even if it were true, why leaving their property at time of war for whatever reason disqualified them to return to it once the hostilities were over? What norms of law would prevent refugees from war zone to resettle? I can sort of understand the reasoning behind removal of hostile population in time of war - even Uri Avnery talks of it as of something inevitable - of course, without any justification or “understanding” for massacres and rapes that occurred in many places. But once the battles were over, Israel was obliged both morally and legally by UN resolution 194 to let the refugees back. Instead, what few of those tried to return clandestinely, were shot by IDF.
Proteus, you don’t have a point whichever way you look at it.

I don’t think your posts are supporting this. Nor is the hysterical name-calling (”liar,” “right-winger,” etc) you engage in when there is a post by someone who is not already a supporter of divestment. (For example, you accused me of attempting to “disguise [myself] as a progressive” when my posts were not about committing to any such label or party-line package deal of political views, but only about expressing a particular set of views about the Middle East, not on the tax code, labor laws, or anything else that makes one conservative, centrist, or progressive).

Regarding I-97, the problem is that measures you and other supporters see as directed only against settlements are legitimately (and I think more plausibly) viewed by others as undermining Israel’s security — by preventing Israel from taking defensive measures against Hezbollah, Hamas, and other inplacable foes of Israel’s existence. While it may be better for the fence to be constructed along a different route (and I believe it will be after negotiations), I find it hard to see how it does not currently play a crucial role in protecting Israeli civilians from terrorist groups that are protesting not simply the occupation, but the Jewish people’s presence in the region.

You also insist my previous comments on the threat presented by Iran, and how Israel can respond to it, are “off topic.” Why? I-97 deals directly with this topic and, as you concede in your original post, an attack on Iran by Israel is the only thing that would cause I-97 to directly affect Israel (by triggering, e.g., divestment from Israeli bonds). If my posts on Iran are “off topic,” this is only because I-97 *itself* has strayed off topic by seeking to influence Israeli decision-making on an issue which is not at all about Israeli occupation of the West Bank or Gaza Strip: Israel’s military and political strategy vis a vis a country, Iran, that currently denies and regularly threatens Israel’s very existence.

If my continuing skepticism about I-97 leads you to inaccurately label me a “right-winger,” that’s fine. I’m clearly not as much on the left on this issue as you are, but as I see it, discussion and deliberation about the merit of I-97 shouldn’t be a childish contest about who is a true “progressive” but about whether this measure does what you claim it does (discourages additional settlement & promote a negotiated solution) or whether it instead does other things (like defend Iran & make life easier for Iran’s friends in Hezbollah and Hamas) that would damage Israeli security more deeply.

While a few may have been forced out,

Lies, all lies. Your darling boy, Benny Morris, who has become one of you even disputes you & proves you are lying. And Morris is THE authority on this issue. He has said that SOME Arabs may have fled, but the majority were forced out either by brutal violence against them (including rapes, massacres, etc.) which ‘persuaded’ them to leave; or by Israeli forces which forcibly expelled them.

The vast majority of Mizrahi Jews fled, or were forced out of their native Arab countries, through coercion, confiscation of property, and the odd massacre, synagogue burning, etc. All well documented.

Prove that the “vast majority” were forced out by coercion. I didn’t say prove that some were forced out which I’ve conceded happened. I said prove the “vast majority” were, which is YOUR claim. You can’t do it. But it’ll be amusing to see what you come up with. And I’m not talking about “evidence” from propagandists, I’m talking about evidence bolstered by archival research of the sort done by Morris. If you can’t come up w. reliable evidence don’t bother.

I’m about as far from a “right winger” as you can get

I never trust commenters like you to self-describe their political views. You’re simply an unreliable witness. I’d like you to prove that you are far from a right winger by stating what your views are on issues like settlements, the Separation Wall, targeted assassinations, etc. You’ve already made clear in yr comments that you are right wing. Now, I’d challenge you to disprove it.

Every right winger who comments here claims their views are in the majority. But unlike you I actually post about real polls of Israeli & Amer. Jewish public opinion which prove that on most (but not all) questions public opinion actually agree with me & not you. I challenge you once again since you claim you believe in facts to come up with some. And once again not propaganda fr. unreliable, partisan sources. But real polls & evidence from non partisan sources.

You don’t know anything about my views & make a serious mistake by presuming to substitute yr own guesses about what they are for what they really are. Underlying issues are returning the Golan, returning Shebaa Farms, exchanging prisoners, normalizing relations, demilitarizing the borders, returning most conquered land (67 borders), withdrawing fr. settlements, guaranteeing security for both sides. Floating the issue of Israel’s right to exist is a smokescreen that has nothing to do w. my views & you’d know it if you bothered to spend 10 minutes reading about what I really believe, which of course you can’t be bothered to do because of the propagandist that you are.

Don’t link to propaganda sites like Facts & Logic here. I don’t allow them to be promoted. If you want to promote them do so elsewhere.

Geesh, you’ve visited Israel “numerous times.” That proves you’re an extraordinary expert on everything you say. Look, I’m not going to get into a pissing contest with you here. Once again, all my experiences in Israel & the Territories are documented here. Since you claim you’re an engineer, do some research & you’ll find it all. And don’t expect me to help you do what you should be doing yrself.

Israeli Arabs should’ve give up their citizenship. They are Israeli citizens. They should & do demand that Israel be a state that gives them full equality & full economic opportunities–a goal which is very very far from accomplished. Did you ever ask some of your best friends who happen to be Israeli Arab what they thought about Israel & whether it had done well by them? Of course you didn’t. You only asked & heard what you wanted to hear.

Anyone who writes ‘G-d’ is religious. Why would you deny it?

This is actually a lie or about as close as you can get to one. While Israel definitely expelled as many as 700,000 resident Arabs in 1948, Jews left Arab lands for many different reasons. Some were forced out but the vast majority were not.

Your first sentence is the only one that is correct. Israel did not “definitely” expel those resident Arabs. While a few may have been forced out, the majority of them fled, exhorted on by Arab governments promising they could return once the land had been “watered with the blood of the Jews”. The vast majority of Mizrahi Jews fled, or were forced out of their native Arab countries, through coercion, confiscation of property, and the odd massacre, synagogue burning, etc. All well documented. Its disengenuous of you to use Morocco as an example, as this is the ONLY Arab country besides Egypt that maintained a relationship with Israel.

@Richard:

That’s bullcrap & just about everyone except Proteus seems to know it

Lets cut it out with the name calling. You know nothing about me, or my ideology. I’m about as far from a “right winger” as you can get, but I’m also a realist, and an engineer who values facts and logic, not sentimental crap and lies. My opinion also happens to be in the majority. Israel has a long history of giving up land for peace, and you know it!

So..its quite obvious from the rest of your post that its not enough for Israel to end the “occupation” of southern Lebanon, and Gaza, but now, you also expect them to “resolve underlying issues”. Such as..Israel’s ownership of the city built by the Israel over 4000 years ago? Israels right to secure borders, after four brutal wars, and countless terrorist attacks? No. From your tone, its clear that the “underlying issue” that needs to be resolved is Israel’s very right to exist. After all, Hamas and Fatah still consider ALL of Israel to be “occupied territory”.

Now that we’ve sorted out the facts, you still never answered the original question.

What Occupation I ask you? What country exactly is being occupied? Is this not a simple question for you to answer?

Are we talking about the occupation of Jordanian territory? Egyptian territory? Turkish territory? What country are you claiming is occupied?

I’ve found a pretty good answer here:
[ed., link removed per comment rules]

which you will no doubt dismiss as “propaganda”. However, the facts are facts. I have yet to read any information to the contrary, and I’ve done my share of Said and Benny Morris.

One final question, I’ve actually visited Israel, numerous times. I’ve been to Bethlehem, Ramallah, Jericho and east Jerusalem. Have you? I’ve talked to (and worked with) a number of Israeli Arabs (aka Palestinian Arabs). Not ONE..not a single person expressed any interest in giving up their Israeli citizenship, and why should they? Israeli Arabs enjoy a much higher standard of living compared to Jordanian, Egyptian, or Syrian Arabs.

Finally, I am certainly neither religious, nor an Islamophobe. Indeed, if anything, during my recent trip to Egypt (led by an Israeli Arab Muslim guide), I gained a great respect for their people and culture. I got to visit some of the great Mosques and institutions in Cairo. Still..facts are facts.

Almost 900k Jews over the next decade fled (or were “strongly ecouraged) to leave.

This is actually a lie or about as close as you can get to one. While Israel definitely expelled as many as 700,000 resident Arabs in 1948, Jews left Arab lands for many different reasons. Some were forced out but the vast majority were not. Proteus conveniently leaves out the fact that Israel sent shlichim to Arab countries seeking to persuade them to leave & make aliya. And funny thing: many did. Yet somehow this is now translated into Jews being forced fr. these lands. Other Jews like those in Morocco emigrated largely to France, Canada & Israel. They were not forced from the country. In fact, the king begged them to remain.

Interesting how ideological blinders blind you to fact & truth & force you to bastardize history for yr own convenience.

If Israel knew, for a fact, that giving up the West Bank would lead to peace, it would.

That’s bullcrap & just about everyone except Proteus seems to know it.

As for Lebanon 2000, of course there was no peace when Israel withdrew because it did not negotiate a peace treaty with either Lebanon or Syria, nor did it resolve outstanding issues w. Hezbollah in terms of prisoners held by both sides. You can’t withdraw fr. someone else’s territory & expect peace to happen miraculously when none of the underlying issues dividing you are resolved. This is true with Lebanon as with Gaza.

There is no peace in Gaza because Israel did not make peace. It simply withdrew & expected peace would follow w/o negotiating any peace agreement w. anyone. Proteus seems to think Israel deserves peace because of its magnanimous gestures toward the Arabs. Everyone else knows you only get peace when you negotiate for it & resolve underlying issues.

The idea that Jordan is the Palestinian state that all Palestinians including those in the Territories should be looking to is a common right-wing theme. Proteus seems to have mined just about all of them in his religiously-fueled Islamophobic rant.

Since there is no possiblity that anything reasonable can ever satisfy you I have nothing to say to you nor any proposal to make to you.

Are we talking about the occupation of Jordanian territory? Egyptian territory? Turkish territory? What country are you claiming is occupied?

Now..if you are talking about occupation of a region with multiple ethnic groups resident, then you can be talking about almost any modern country in the world

By that definition, a Palestinian Arab (ethnic identity, NOT nationality) is an Arab from the region of Palestine. Just like Jews living in the region were also known as Palestinians prior to 1948.

We all know what happened. Like so many other places in the world, there was a war. There was a large scale, bidirectional population transfer (~700k Palestinian Arabs either fled, or were forcably moved). Almost 900k Jews over the next decade fled (or were “strongly ecouraged) to leave. Similar, but much larger scale population transfers occured throughout the world, noteably India/Pakistan.

So…regardless of all that, there is a key, fundamental difference between the IP conflict, and all the others. The Palestinian Arab refugees NEVER RESETTLED after 6 generations. Unlike every single other refugee group in history, other Arab nations (like, say Jordan, which is 85% Palestinian Arab) did not allow citizenship or resettlement rights for their fellow Arabs. This is the fundamental cause of the conflict.

So..what to do? If Israel knew, for a fact, that giving up the West Bank would lead to peace, it would. Israel gave up a huge portion of gains from 1967 with the Camp David treaty, which lead to peace with Egypt..a peace that allowed me to fly El-Al from Tel Aviv to Cairo earlier this year. Unfortunately, its all too clear what happens when Israel withdraws. We saw this in Lebannon in 2000 (lead to start of first “intifada”. We saw it after the offer at Taba (lead to second “intifada”. And we finally saw it in Gaza recently (where Hamas lead the destruction of the greenhouses and hotels that would have provided for industry and jobs, and is hell bent on causing untold misery).

The “occupation” will end when Israel goes far beyond any other occupying power in history, and finalizes the two state solution. Unfortunately that can only happen when the Palestinian arabs are lead by a legitimate government, not a terrorist organization.

Of course, there already exists a Palestinian state, with an 85% Palestinian population. AKA..Jordan. Unfortunately, its currently “occupied” by the Hashemite Arabs installed by the British in 1948.

You see what a bloody mess this is? If you have an actual, honest to god proposal that would properly end the “occupation”, and still retain the state of Israel, I’d love to hear it. The closest thing was Taba, and that lead to the second intifada.

As a supposed Zionist, you need to realize that the “occupation” the Arab world wants to end is that of the entire nation of Israel. Thank G-d that will never happen.