The fact that Hannah Arendt & Albert Einstein said that Menachem Begin was a fascist in 1948 does nothing to advance yr argument that Zionism or Israel as a whole is fascist. I’m no supporter of Menachem Begin. I’ve always been a strong critic of Herut/Likud.

The UN passed a resolution saying Zionism equalled racism & if I’m not mistaken it repealed it later. At any rate, the General Assembly isn’t my idea of an ideal arbiter of this question.

Jimmy Carter and Desmond Tutu have never said that Israel or Zionism were fascist.

Jabotinsky is not Zionism. He is a founder of one wing of the Zionist movement, not the entire movement.

We were discussing the contributions of RELIGION (not necessarily Catholicism) to civilization. You claimed that religion as a whole was more destructive than constructive. I pointed out Jewish contributions to civilization because w/o Judaism these contributions could never have existed.

I have no idea what you mean by “reality tells another story.” I know quite a bit about both Judaism & conversion so it’d be better if you spoke directly rather than in riddles.

“The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism”.

The majority in UN general assembly?
UN General Assembly Resolution 3379 that Zionism is racist passed 72 to 35.
What about Jimmy Carter, Mahatma Gandhi and Desmond Tutu…all extremists?
I understand that it is hard to witness somebody or something you hold dear turn into a monster, but that is what war does to people.

From Ha’aretz 1923:

“…. Settlement can thus develop under the protection of a force that is not dependent on the local population, behind an IRON WALL which they will be powerless to break down. ….a voluntary agreement is just not possible. As long as the Arabs preserve a gleam of hope that they will succeed in getting rid of us, nothing in the world can cause them to relinquish this hope, precisely because they are not a rubble but a living people. And a living people will be ready to yield on such fateful issues only when they give up all hope of getting rid of the Alien Settlers. Only then will extremist groups with their slogan ‘No, never’ lose their influence, and only then their influence be transferred to more moderate groups. And only then will the moderates offer suggestions for compromise. Then only will they begin bargaining with us on practical matters, such as guarantees against PUSHING THEM OUT, and equality of civil, and national rights.”

This is fascism…and a prophecy of what has happened.
And Jabotinsky was, as we know, the founder of rightwing Zionism, aka Revisionist Movement-Herut-Likud of today

Your dream of a one state solution is but a naive dream. A kind of democracy where “two lions and a lamb are voting on what’s for dinner” can hardly be called a real democracy.
At least you didn’t call me an anti-Semite, but settled for an extremist. I thank you for that. When the World is going crazy normality will appear extreme.

I don’t understand why you are mentioning Jewish contribution to European culture. It is huge. Perhaps facilitated by the fact that they were outside control by the Vatican. We were discussing the Catholic Church and a few Monks. Try to stay focused on the topic.

And yes in theoryanybody can convert to judaism. Reality tells another story. Just as Israel is a nuclearfree democracy..in theory. It is neither

Calling Israel fascist means you’re using some vague theoretical construct that has no bearing on any reality I know. Not to mention that your rhetoric isn’t shared by 99.9% of the rest of the world. That would place you somewhere in the .01% of extreme anti-Zionists.

The monks were the ones who translated those manuscripts into Latin & preserved them. They didn’t preserve some of the manuscripts. They preserved virtually all of it. They passed from Arabic into Latin via the monks.

Yes, there was an Inquisition & the Crusades. But then again there were these monks.

You clearly don’t know much about the important Jewish figures I mentioned who made massive contributions not just to Jewish thought, but world thought. Before you condemn Judaism, you should research some of their contributions.

Of course Zionism is racistic. It is a political organization for one exclusive group of people. If they allowed anybody to convert to Judaism, it wouldn’t be so.
Racism in itself isn’t that bad, and it was common and accepted in academia until Hitler came along and brought the concept into a new dimension.
When I call Israel a fascist state it is because it is, not because of anti-Semitism, or whatever ideology you think might possess me. Fascism is merger of corporations, military and political leadership. Mussolini said “fascism should rather be called corporatism”. Add to that Neocon’s and Likudnick’s embrace of Machiavelli’s political view and Strauss / Nietzsche’s philosophy and what you have is fascism.

And yes. I appreciate your fight for Judaism’ and it’s values against those relative few but in these days powerful who seem intent on dragging it into a moral and ethical abyss.

Ad religion effect on European culture and science.

It is possible that a few monks saved some manuscripts, but the bulk part of our Hellenistic heritage was kept in Arab translation and at the beginning of the Renaissance translated to Latin and Spanish in places like Toledo (convivance), Padua, Venice and Palermo.
“Eppur si muove” means And yet it moves . The Italian mathematician, physicist and philosopher Galileo Galilei muttered this phrase after being forced to recant in 1633, before the Inquisition, his belief that the Earth moved around the Sun. He was but one of many scientist facing the wrath of the Catholic Church for speaking against Aristotle or Galen. So I think you are wrong, the net effect of religion on our culture and science was to slow it down.
The reformation, where and when the Vatican lost its grip on Northern European culture brought about an enormous upswing in these countries.

“Scientific stagnation???” Aren’t you forgetting the medieval Christian monks who preserved the Greek scientific manuscripts which served as a basis of European technological & scientific innovation? W/o those monks we would have no record of Greek contribution to science, philosophy, etc. That’s a pretty damn important contribution.

Yr. account of religion tells only half the story. How can you talk about religion reasonably & lv. out the other half?? Leaving aside other religious traditions which have made important contributions–w/o Judaism (Maimonides, Halevy, Heine, Ibn Gabirol, Hillel, Yochanan Ben Zakkai, Abraham, Moses, Buber, Rosenzweig, Kafka, Spinoza, etc.) the world would be a much poorer place.

Zionism is not “by definition a racist movement,” unless yr definition is extreme and ideologically motivated or ill-informed (not that YOU are, but some anti-Zionists are). Some Zionists are racist, some elements of the ZIonist movement have been racist. But Zionism itself is not ipso facto racist. Saying Israel is a “fascist state” shows I think where yr ideological position lies.

Yes, Israel most definitely has an “Arab Question.” And I’ve campaigned in this blog for a long time for the idea of an Israeli constitution or Bill of Rights & for the notion that Israel should be a state of all its citizens with rights of the minority AND majority (whether the majority be Jewish or Arab) guaranteed.

Those “jackals” don’t represent all of Judaism or Jews. They’re a loud, shrill minority. This blog exists to deny them the opportunity to lay claim to the mantle of “Jewish values.” I’m in a long-term political-ideological war w. them which they won’t win.

As I said every religion has such traps. Traps and the evil done in religion’s name do not mean religion should disappear or that religion has overall been more of a destructive than constructive force in human civilization.

Is wide off the mark. At least in European history. Religion was the driving force behind endless wars, inquisition , persecutions , auto de fé’s , scientific stagnation and a lot more sorrow and grief. The only constructive I can think of is the judiciary system built on the ten commandments and christian/jewish ethics and education..

I don’t know what the “Jewish Question” means. But I don’t think it’s the responsibility of Jews to make things easy on European civilization by disappearing.

The term “the Jewish question” originates from England around 1850, where King George lll wanted to reward a Jewish banker with knighthood for his service to his country, but the parliament refused because he was not a Christian. The essence of the problem was: should they ask the banker to convert to Christianity, or should they change the laws. What to do with exclusive ethnic and religious minorities in an emancipated society.
The Jewish intelligentsia in Germany (and elsewhere) was divided between integration and separation..Assimilationists and Zionists. Later Hitler found his own solution, the final.

Zionism is by definition a racist movement, and all you have to do is to add militarism into the equation and you have a full-blown fascist state. Israel has an “Arab question”. Their solution so far has been to avoid drafting a constitution…to close their eyes to the problem ,and hope for special treatment from the outside world i.e. exceptionalism.
The very idea of nonintegration in a modern society is an anachronism, and you my dear Richard walks backwards into the future. You might be tempted to argue that assimilation is not the same as integration. I beg to differ, but if you embrace Jewish exceptionalism it might work, at least for the moment and for you.

PS. I indeed agree with your statement:

And I do think we must distinguish bet. Jews and Israelis–bet. Judaism and Israel. They are 2 separate things & confusing or mingling them is very dangerous.

But it is getting harder and harder. Every time you voice your opinion on Israel policy you have the jackals Pipes, Dershowitz, Foxman , Horowitz & al. snapping at your heels and screaming “bloody anti-Semite.”
The problem is of course not what they say. The problem is that the media are giving those fruitcakes too much attention.

I don’t know what the “Jewish Question” means. But I don’t think it’s the responsibility of Jews to make things easy on European civilization by disappearing.

As for “traps,” yes indeed there are traps everywhere not just in being Jewish, but in being human. I recognize all the traps you mention. As I said every religion has such traps. Traps and the evil done in religion’s name do not mean religion should disappear or that religion has overall been more of a destructive than constructive force in human civilization. At any rate, I’d prefer not getting into such a broad debate anyway. I can only speak for myself & my own attitude toward my religion. I think I walk the path carefully & try to get my co-religionists to understand the pitfalls we face is we stray too far fr. “the good.”

And I do think we must distinguish bet. Jews and Israelis–bet. Judaism and Israel. They are 2 separate things & confusing or mingling them is very dangerous.

I don’t choose sources based on religion. If someone has something useful to say about the I-P conflict I quote them. If not, I don’t. There are Jewish sources I won’t quote and non-Jewish sources I won’t quote. But this is based on political attitudes & understanding, not on religious background.

First of all I said Jewish exclusiveness is the main factor behind the The Jewish Question
not behind religious and ethnic persecution.
Your anti-assimilationistic view reminds me of our national epos Peer Gyntby Henrik Ibsen

….On the heath he meets a Button-Moulder who says
“I have been sent for you … you are to go into my ladle … I must melt you up.” Peer Gynt protests that to lose his soul, his identity, his self, is not fair. “I’m not really a bad soul. At worst, you may call me a bungler, but certainly not an exceptional sinner,” he pleads.

That, says the Button-Moulder, is just the trouble: “You’re not bad enough for the sulphur-pit, nor good enough for Paradise. And so, into the ladle you go!”

Peer Gynt insists: “But you cannot kill a soul! Haven’t I been a personality? An individual? Myself?”

“You have been selfish,” the Button-Moulder replies, “but not yourself.”

Peer Gynt asks the answer to his riddle: “What is it, to be one’s self?” The Button-Moulder answers: “To be one’s self is to deny one’s self.” He declares that Peer Gynt can have neither the reward nor the punishment accorded an individual soul, and must go into the ladle of nonentity unless he can prove himself a sinner worthy of Hell. Choosing Hell rather than nothingness, Peer Gynt recites that he has sold slaves, cheated, deceived and saved himself at the cost of another man’s life; but these, says the Button-Moulder, are but trifles.

Of course you are not a supremacist. If you were I would not enjoy your writing. But the path you walk on is full of traps. When you think of the Straussians in Washington, the colonists in Hebron and IDFs actions at various checkpoints on the West Bank even more so. That’s why I disapprove of you criticizing Phil for his view, which I share. It would help if you once every blue moon quoted a “gentile” writer. On the other hand I understand that few non-jewish Americans dare to openly criticize Israel the way you and Phil does. Still Ethnocentricity is one of the traps.