I’m probably not making my case very well. I’m too disgusted and there is probably too much anger in my posts, which in turn probably makes them more obnoxious than persuasive. But I think my underlying point is valid–politicians, even the best of them, need supporters who will tell them they are dead wrong on some issues.

I agree with most of what daga says, though I don’t think religion is necessarily the main problem. It depends on what sort of political conclusions people draw from their religious beliefs (or secular or philosophical beliefs). If we had clergy like Desmond Tutu speaking out in our country, I’d want more religion in politics. It comes down to what sort of thing is being said, not whether a person is secular or not. Some of the biggest warmongers in public life these days (like Christopher Hitchens) are vehemently anti-relligion.

And in the current case, on some issues (not all), I think Wright is right and Obama isn’t. I wish that in the recent uproar Obama’s liberal supporters had been more detached, supporting Obama as needed, but conceding that Wright wasn’t off-base in some of what he’s said (on Israel and US foreign policy in general). Instead, Wright was demonized.

In Norway we have political discussions on TV almost every day..where political leaders, industrial leaders and various pundits participate. Of course our politicians lies too, that is an “occupational hazard”, but his chances to get away with it are slim

As far as I can see is your only road to salvation to reduce the power of media ( maybe internet will help you there ) , get money out of the elections and finally get religion out of politics and politics out of religion..

Agreed. That’s why I voted for Obama in the primary and want him to beat Hillary, and would take either of them over McCain.
But he’s a politician and as for my insult (referring to politicians as “a kind of thing”), if that’s a distraction, then I regret it. But the statements Obama has made on Israel’s human rights violations fully deserve contempt. That’s the problem with getting overly enthusiastic about politicians. They need people who will hold them to account for the lies they tell on human rights, and if people on websites like this aren’t going to hold them accountable, then no one will.

I started out feeling that Obama was not seasoned enough. But Hillary was not my choice. Edwards was. And it was not about experience either. It was about the person underneath the issues. So over time and after Edwards dropped out, I began to focus on Obama’s qualities. His intelligence, manner and sensibility are far more appealing than the other two running. If he is lying about his views on Israel then he is playing to realities out there. I don’[t love that but I don’t see why he has to shoot himself in the foot by failing some litmus test about the survival of israel- though he can still believe AIPAC’s is a wrongheaded approach. Perhaps we should parse his words more carefully. In any case politicians are not a “kind of thing” and I would rather not fall into the frame of mind that can’t believe that there can be dramatic improvement with the right choice. Every candidate ls NOT as purposely deceptive as every other.

I have never understood the need many people have to believe in a political candidate. Politicians are not the kind of thing you should have faith in. You vote for the best available and expect them to lie.

Bill Moyer’s was good last night on this- featured on Dkos and YouTube- on this whole thing. He blames the media ( of course and not without good cause). But also he asks or wishes for some understanding- a stretch for many.

We can ( I can) fault Obama here and there but hey folks he is running for President in the same America that elected GWB twice. Or if you prefer, as I do you can say that twice it was too damn close when it should not have been. So one run’s to the electorate we have. After is the time to lead. I would say Obama is doing pretty well considering. After a point, it’s not in his hands. This is a test on us. Far and away he is the best of the three.

Richard- a well written entry, thanks.

The guy is cracking in the primaries for Gods sake because Hillary was what, mean to him.

We’ll find out soon enough after N. Carolina & Indiana. And if I’m right you’ll be eatin’ a lotta crow, Billy boy.

You’re in fantasy land about McCain. If he does win then I’ll have an even lower opinion about the avg. American voter than I already have.

Obama has Martin Peretz in his corner–somebody on one side of this issue or the other is going to be disappointed if Obama makes it to the White House.

On Clinton vs. McCain, Clinton is preferable, I think. I’d cut my hand off after voting for her, but she’s preferable. Presidential campaigns are always about choosing the lesser of two evils, IMO. Though you’re also right about the consequences of voting for her–it’s a reward for scummy tactics.