Comments on: ‘Fitna’: Dutch for ‘Garbage’

By: Richard Silverstein

Richard Silverstein — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 10:10:06 +0000

two corrections to Richard’s bio of me: I am...married to an asian Muslim man

My apologies, Lenny. I stand corrected.

By: lennybruce

lennybruce — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 09:15:12 +0000

Sorry but I left one of his quotes out that really reminds one of how the national socialists blamed all of the country’s ills on one minority group:

“Veel fundamentele problemen in Nederland, zoals infrastructuur, files, huisvestingsproblemen en de verzorgingsstaat, kun je rechtstreeks
toeschrijven aan migranten.”
Geert Wilders in interview met DPA, 3 januari 2008
“Many fundamental problems in the Netherlands, like infrastructure, road congestion, housing problems and the welfare state, can be directly attributed to migrants.”
We may have a problem with integration, there may be a problem with violent Islamists, but our choice is do we fight these problems based on the strength of our diversity, inclusion and democracy or do we fight them based on division, fear and fascist sounding populism. To me Wilders is the true danger because he and people like him can erode our freedoms much faster than any real or exaggerated threat of a Muslim caliphate in Europe.

By: lennybruce

lennybruce — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 08:54:08 +0000

Jon:

Sorry, I should have done that. My bad…. They mostly come from the referenced overview found here: http://forum.fok.nl/topic/1138276.
In an editorial in the Volkskrant, 8 aug 2007 (http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article451338.ece/Genoeg_is_genoeg_verbied_de_Koran) he calls for banning the Koran and in his explanation of his position (http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article451302.ece/Wilders_verbied_de_Koran,_ook_in_moskee) explains that in addition to banning the sale of the book, its use in mosques or in the home should become a criminal offense. Its use should only be sanctioned for academic purposes.
In Wilders’ meetings with government officials in October and November, he had stated that his intention in the film would be to end by ripping pages out of the book and throwing them into a fireplace (http://www.destentor.nl/algemeen/binnenland/2912514/Wilders-woedend-over-leugens.ece)
A few other juicy bits from Wilders’ editorial from 8 aug 2007:
“How I am ashamed of the Dutch politicans. Their naiveté and sickly hunt for the utopia moderate Muslim, who only brings our land hell and damnation. How I am ashamed of those inside and outside the Parliament who refuse to stop the Islamic invasion of the Netherlands… The Hague (seat of government) is full of cowards. Frightened people who were born cowards and will die cowards… Who don’t give a damn about the interests of the Dutch citizen and who cooperate in the transformation of the Netherlands in Nederarabia as a province of of the Islamic state Eurabia…”
If this kind of stuff doesn’t sound reminiscent of some national-socialistic demagoguery of the early 30’s then I don’t know what would.
And two corrections to Richard’s bio of me: I am 20 yrs in Holland now and married to an asian Muslim man (even a bit more piquant haha).

The translations are mine and are faithfully made. You sound a bit doubting in your comment. Are you surprised by his positions and his comments?

By: Richard Silverstein

Richard Silverstein — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 01:14:49 +0000

Jon: Lenny has lived in Holland for the past 25 yrs., follows the Dutch press, & is married to an Asian Muslim woman if I’m not mistaken. I trust his word on this implicitly.

By: Jon

Jon — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 22:46:57 +0000

lennybruce: I’m totally lost here - can you provide any attribution for most of the things you wrote? Even the direct quotes come up blank on Google, Yahoo etc. All I can find is a few sites pointing out that there are various mis-informed emails being forwarded saying things like ” Offensive pages from the Koran will be burned”. It would be nice to stick to fact here - makes debate easier!

By: lennybruce

lennybruce — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 21:12:43 +0000

TO tangentlama who

“just found out that Wilders has been trying to ban Halal sausage from supermarkets in Holland.” And who then commented further: “This rings alarm bells…”
Here are a few other of Wilders’ proposals:
It will be illegal for Muslims to build any additional houses of prayer.
It will be illegal to operate a Muslim faith based school while Christian, Catholic and Jewish schools will be allowed.
It would be illegal to possess a copy of the Koran.
Offensive pages from the Koran will be burned.
It will be illegal to immigrate to Holland from any Muslim country.
And some of his statements:
“Native Dutch procreate less quickly then minorities. Now the minorities, mostly Muslims, are concentrated in the large cities. In 20 years they will be everywhere…”
“It is totally undesirable that Amsterdam should count 177 different nationalities.”
“No to integration. Assimilation! And then let those headscarves come protest at Maliveld (in the Hague). I’ll eat them raw.”
“I don’t want a growing number of people, maybe in the future a majority, to be Muslims in the cabinet.”
If some of his proposals about how to treat Dutch Muslims or the way he talks about this religious minority reminds you of some other demagoguery from some other period of time, sadly not all that long ago in European history, then you see who we really need to be afraid of. We need to decide if we are going to deal with the legitimate problems we have as a free and pluralistic society or are we going to allow these populist anti-democratic voices of nationalism and neo-fascism create and fill their vacuum of fear and ignorance. It’s happened before on European soil and it could happen again. Wilders and for that matter Rita Verdonk with her new “Proud of Netherlands” party is how it begins. Sure they get a lot of support because its much easier to peddle hate and fear apparently.
It’s worked before and they believe it can work again. Could it work again? Could the Muslim massacres on European soil during the Balkan wars actually have been a foreshadowing of events to come as opposed to an aberration? And on what side of this argument should especially we Jews be on with our history, regardless of our feelings in the Israeli-Palestinian question?

By: tangentlama

tangentlama — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 20:35:32 +0000

Jonathan. You said: “A Channel Four program called Undercover Mosque exposed just how widespread the anti-semitic, anti-gay, anti-western ranting is, in UK mosques.
That’s all it was - footage of Imams ranting:http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/undercover+mosque/158390
And yet, the West Midlands Police reported to the crown prosecution service it as being “unhelpful for community cohesion” (of course, no charges were brought)”
And I will tell you that those Imam came from the USA, not the UK, and that they were formerly Evangelicals who ‘reverted’ to Islam and were not in fact Imam, but belong to a particular type of evangelising Wahabist Islam- they ingratiated themselves by their aggressive self-promotion to those mosques where they preach division (fitna) between Sunni and Shi’a - in other words, they belong to a small USA-originating ex-evangelical preacher-set that were trained by so-called scholars at the Madina ‘University’ in Saudi Arabia. They despise the Shia as much as the Jew, and they came deliberately came to UK to spread malice and division amongst UK Muslim and to drive a wedge between UK Muslims and their fellow non-Muslim citizens

By: tangentlama

tangentlama — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 20:24:14 +0000

I just found out that Wilders has been trying to ban Halal sausage from supermarkets in Holland. This rings alarm bells - there’s little difference between Halal and Kashrut laws - so what’s next for Wilders - ban Kosher products?
Islamophobes are no friend to Jews.

By: Richard Silverstein

Richard Silverstein — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 07:48:59 +0000

Nobody “excuses” hate or violence wherever it comes from. But unlike most of us, Jonathan, you seem fixated on Muslim hate & believe it holds a unique place in the history of human perfidy & evil. People who see Muslim extremism as unique or more dangerous than any other garden variety of political terrorism do a disservice. It should be fought just as we fight all the others. No more and no less.

By: Jon

Jon — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 16:12:54 +0000

I don’t know that it is true there are numerically more violent attacks by Muslim extremists than any other religious group. It’s possible.

OK then, from this morning:

Several men accused of plotting to blow up passenger planes mid-air as they crossed the Atlantic made Islamic martyrdom videos, a court has heard.
Six of the eight men recorded videos in which one warns of “martyrdom operations” which would “rain down” on non-believers, jurors were told.

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7330367.stm

I’m doing this because the rewards, the big rewards that Allah has promised those who step on his path and Inshaallah [God willing] become martyr and the best of amongst those to me is the guarantee of Jannah [paradise] for myself and my family and those that are close to me.

So, that’s another 8 who would gladly kill the people who gave them a place to live. I’m just wondering how many more it takes before people wake up and stop excusing other’s actions.